Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hajo on April 20, 2006, 05:24:18 PM
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Ok.....so I had a particularly bad day at work today. But it seems within the last ten years the days have been getting worse.
Here's my rant. Been in Management for 36 years. Most as frontline or a step higher management. Currently title is General turn Supervisor on a Blast Furnace. A tough job....and very dangerous at all times. the environment can be harsh, heat, CO....Blast Furnace makes about 200Kcu. ft/min usually as a byproduct of ironmaking. Gents and Ladies that I work with in a Union Shop trained to work with and within that environment. things can go haywire fast.
When I started.....most of the people I worked with were older then me. They took pride in the performance of their jobs. Most worked without Supervision and were self motivated. About 20 years ago I noticed a change in the workforce. Some started to just work for their paycheck...do the bare minimum and anything extra and beyond the call of duty out of the question. Helping another member who had a tad more work to do because of the circumstances became non existant. Let the poor bastard die.....but when he required a little extra help moaned or complained like the world has come to an end if he/she didn't get any help. It's gotten worse within the last 5 years. They see impending disaster coming and instead of doing something minor to rectify the situation they stand and let the disaster happen.......brain dead. You have to yell to get a response and when you do a temper tantrum is forthcoming from that employee and he generally makes the disaster a catastrophe. And yes....this is a Union Shop. That a suprise? They get paid very well for their work. Most make at least 70K a year and well over. Paid Holidays (double time and a half) Sundays they get time and a half......not to mention shift differential and performance has decreased. They also get incentive and 5 weeks paid vacation after 20 years.
I'm making a request of upper echelon management that we be allowed to carry firearms. If an employee complains or cries because he has to move a 10 lbs. bag of vermiculite I'd like permission to shoot and yell NEXT!
No wonder GM, Ford, Delphi and others in financial difficulties. The local Delphi Plant has 40 some members that come to work and get full pay to read in the Lunchroom. They aren't allowed to fill a job if there is an absence. The Contract they signed with the Company let them have the option of being bought out with full pay. They will retire and those taking their place will do so at a lower scale of pay. Between the Companies and the Unions....this Country deserves what it gets. And when those who lose their cushy jobs cry.......I wanna be there to tell them...well.....who's to blame? Then hold a mirror to their faces if they can't come up with a response.
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Unions had there place back in the 20's and 30's so the employee would not be taken advantage of. I see your frustraition during these times. In my factory, non union we have a hard working hespanic work force. They speak english or they will not be hired. The sad thing in my job is I have to replace the workers through attrition with robots. Is that a possible solution for you?
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Hajo,
I feel you. I don't work in a union shop. I would say that it is the general rule now a days for employees. I got a guy on my shift that pushes the clock every day when he comes to work. I mean everyday. So he has been late on more than 1 occasion. So I gave him a warning about it. He still pushed the limit. The other day he was late on the weekend relieveing the 1st shift. I found out about it and told him he would be written up. He got mad , said he wouldn't accept it and then said if he was written up there would be trouble. I told him if it was trouble he wanted I would be more than happy to oblige him after work.
The workers of the younger generation and even younger ones than I by just a few years , have gotten a crappy attitude towards work. They think they can do what they want when they want and nothing will happen. Unfortunatley I work for the state and have to document every dang thing.
Oh how I long for the days of come in late I warn ya. Come in again late and I tell ya hit the frikin door. Now if you even sneeze at em like something will be said well.....Youll hear about it from some lawyer type or some other type of rescue the buttmunch lazyazz types.
I'm so glad I will be able to retire in a few more years. Todays work force has no concept of what it takes to REALLY have to do a job.
Screw em.....I'll be sipping Iced Tea and playing Golf soon...while they sit and complain about how they are getting screwed.;
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I work to live, not live to work.
Some folks just dont want to work or think.
Workforce is becomming a bunch of mindless zombies.
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Redtop I don't have much longer either. And if it gets worse it will be a shorter time yet.
Being salaried 22 years ago when LTV pulled a leveraged buyout on Republic Steel.....those of us who were Salaried Employees of Republic Steel lost our Pensions. That turned out to be a blessing in disguise. The new Company then started a 401K Program for us which they contributed to for us individually. Depending on years of Service etc. Now...I'm in very good shape financially when I chose to retire. If something should happen to the Company financially my 401K is mine...all of it. I'm not at the mercy of a so called Pension Fund which now a days has all the stability and security of oceanfront property in Florida. Might be there next year....might not. The PBGC is deeply in debt and is fighting anyone who has pension liabilities in bankruptcy in court to push the pension elsewhere. By the way, in 1984 when the merger occured, the PBGC sent me a letter stating that for the years of service I had my pension would be 126 dollars a month. Don't spend it all in one place. With good paying jobs becoming more scarce and the economy swinging to the service sector away from manufacturing with generally lower paying jobs, and the growing Economies of China etc. becoming a major force I wonder where jobs will come from.....and where the jobs that some have now will go.
Then I'm sure we'll have lots of people willing to shovel manure 12 hours a
day for 10 dollars an hour.
Conversly....the Companies in the US who move plants overseas for cheaper production costs looks great initially. But....and I say but.. the people of the US are the biggest consumers of automobiles, appliances etc.
Wonder what will happen in the future when the people of the US won't be able in most part to afford a 30K automobile or a 300K dollar home....I don't think there will be much of a market for these high end goods in the US with wages falling....and I don't think the Chinese worker will be making 25 dollars an hour anytime soon. So who's going to purchase these services and goods? Or be able should I say to afford them? third world countries? Doubt it.
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My usual way to work is under construction so I have had to take an alternate route. This route puts me thru Bucksport and by International Paper's plant. As I drive by two parking lots, one is contractors and the other is employees.
The contractor lot looks like a used car lot. Minivans, modest sedans (Saturns, etc) and older trucks.
The employee lot looks like a GM showroom. Every highend truck, couple Beemers, sportscars and the like.
I'd say them union folks make a helluva wage compared to those other poor saps.
Just an observation...
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Originally posted by Hajo
Then I'm sure we'll have lots of people willing to shovel manure 12 hours a
day for 10 dollars an hour.
Conversly....the Companies in the US who move plants overseas for cheaper production costs looks great initially. But....and I say but.. the people of the US are the biggest consumers of automobiles, appliances etc.
Wonder what will happen in the future when the people of the US won't be able in most part to afford a 30K automobile or a 300K dollar home....I don't think there will be much of a market for these high end goods in the US with wages falling....and I don't think the Chinese worker will be making 25 dollars an hour anytime soon. So who's going to purchase these services and goods? Or be able should I say to afford them? third world countries? Doubt it.
That is where we are headed, imo. In 50 years our standard of living will hit Africa's on the way up, then it will probably stop falling.
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So how many of you guys have been to California lol?
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Originally posted by FuBaR
So how many of you guys have been to California lol?
Never......................an d want to know a secret?
Unless it involves Golf at Pebble Beach..........I'll never go
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You can't just go and blame the Unions, the change in the way companies treat their staff has had a big effect too.
Back when you started companies showed loyalty to their staff and understanding to. People knew that if they worked hard then they would always have a job. Nowadays companies just don't give damn, and will sack you as soon as some analyst complains about last quarters figures, or as soon as they can replace you with some cheaper worker straight out of school or outsource your job to China (whether or not they do as good a job as you). So where is the incentive? Why bother investing emotionally in a organization that doesn't care at all about you? Loyalty is a big driving force but it is a two way street and it's the companies that have lost sight of it in their quest for efficiency and the bottom line.
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Pei....I agree whole heartedly with your statement. If you wish to know why the US Steel Industry has disappeared I can tell you my point of view from experience. Men who know all the aspects of manufacturing Steel don't generally run the Companies. Usually a businessman...sometimes in Sales etc. But very very infrequently someone who knows Steel. So....they foresake longterm investments in the infrastructure for the quick gain in profitability. Then...as the months and years roll by they suddenly understand that investments made in the infrastructure 10 to 15 years ago would have been much cheaper to do then, then do them now because they have to to stay competitive. They either must now invest in upgrading to stay competitve....or get out of the business. Seems the US Steel Industry has become the first short term cash cow to executives and investors. And File chap 11 or 7 in the future because the investments they should have made 5 to the years ago are way more expensive now and not affordable. Looks more like short term specualation then long term commitment to the Industry. Auto Industry is now following suit in the US...as is most heavy manufacturing. Largest Steel Co. in the US is now foreign owned. Wonder if they'll make a long term commitment? Even so our ability to make steel a vital component for many uses, is no longer a vital cog in US Manufacturing. It's a vital Cog owned by foreign investors and owners. Looks like the US is getting out of heavy manufacturing. Guess we'll be dependant on the whims and wishes of foreign countries for steel, aluminum and other vital metals and minerals. We'll eventually be held hostage for these materials as we are now being held hostage to Oil.
Employment looks to be controled in the future by foreign ownership. IF for instance there is a downturn of sales of Toyotas, Hondas, etc. I wonder if the US Companies will be closed first.....or will they close plants in their home countries? I'll pick closing plants in the US. US auto manufacturers doing it now.....Steel started doing the same years ago.
The US will be dependant on the whims for goods to foreign Countries. Just as we now are for Oil. And ya know what? The US Oil Companies want it that way. Why? Can't make those billion dollar profits per quarter if gasoline and natural gas is cheap can they? I mean who would invest?
The rich get richer......and the desparity between middle class and the Rich grows larger everyday. Pretty soon will be no middle class.
As George Carlin says......"there are three classes of people. the Rich, who do no work and pay 1% of the taxes, the middle class that does all the work and pays all the taxes, and the poor who are kept poor to scare the hell outta the middle class. Seems to me recently, truer words have never been spoken. I love this country :aok
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What Hajo says with regards to the infastructure of the US steel industry is sadly accurate. When my old man was forced into early retirement due to plant closing in the late '80's (he worked for USS, now called USX), the plant he worked at was almost entirely pre-WW2 tech. He joked that the place was held together with bailing wire and masking tape. Things got to the point where USS had to either modernize or shut down....and of course they shut down.
The sad part is the steel imported from Korea/China/etc is mostly crap. Nobody gives a crap about quality anymore--not the people manufacturing, OR the people buying. I laugh, in a sad way, at my rusty "made in china" stainless steel silverware (complete with easily-bent spoons), while the made-in-USA stuff I take out on the holidays is 80 years old and still looks brand new.
The people running the corporations know only greed, and a "profit now at any cost" mentality, even if it means taking actions which drive the company out of business several years down the road. Urchin is also right--wages are declining, and eventually the credit bubble won't be able to cover the difference. Thanks Baby Boomers, you guys are going to be the first generation who ever left the USA worse off than it was when you inhereted it.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Pei
You can't just go and blame the Unions, the change in the way companies treat their staff has had a big effect too.
Back when you started companies showed loyalty to their staff and understanding to. People knew that if they worked hard then they would always have a job. Nowadays companies just don't give damn, and will sack you as soon as some analyst complains about last quarters figures, or as soon as they can replace you with some cheaper worker straight out of school or outsource your job to China (whether or not they do as good a job as you). So where is the incentive? Why bother investing emotionally in a organization that doesn't care at all about you? Loyalty is a big driving force but it is a two way street and it's the companies that have lost sight of it in their quest for efficiency and the bottom line.
Ya know... this is the first thing that came to mind when I read Hajo's post.
The companies that hired our fathers and our grandfathers don't exist any longer. Yeah, the names are the same, but they aren't.
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As a member of this newer generation workforce, I can tell you what is happening. Take in mind, I am just a cook/buser for restaurant and this is what is contributing to the low morale that causes the workforce there to "give up" on hard work.
-First was bringing in managers that were trained from the outside or came from a different restaurant. Managers that rise to their position from the restaurant become the best managers because they understand what it is like for those at the bottom and understand the restaurant themselves. Ever seen Waiting? The part where the manager is obviously having trouble dealing with cookroom stress and managing food is what it is like when you have "alien managers". A manager from that restaurant would never, and I mean never, shake under pressure like that.
-Next was the treatment of staff. Some managers played favorites and this hurt a lot of people. I have been working there for nearly 5 years now. Benefits you get after certain years or hours come when you reach them. It took nearly an extra year to earn the personalized fleece (these are hella nice fleeces, trust me). I watched several those below me earn them before I did. I have recieved only one write up and never had been late by more than 5 minutes. People who are skipped tend to take note of this and take it out on the restaurant.
-My job as bus is to clean tables, stock silverware, plates, etc. Simple job. Hostesses stand at the front door and do nothing but greet and seat people. They get paid more than busers do. A bunch of the busers and staff petitioned that the hostesses do more work to pick up the slack on busier nights. This caused a huge freak out that left us appalled. Simple jobs that can be done while we're taking care of the madness like a quick spot sweep or even answering phones (bartenders do that, but theres times they're busy and the hostesses are close to the phone as well). We felt that the easier, higher-paid jobs that ANYONE could take (well, you had to be female) is getting special treatment. In response we would stop doing little things to get our way to show that maybe it was time to respect the wishes and thoughts of the staff.
-A benefit of the job was that if you worked there for over a year and had a good record, you could come in whenever you want and recieve a 50% discount on food. Direct family could also recieve the discount when they come with you. A nice benefit right? After a while this was stopped because it was being abused. After some talks with the staff, we realized that it wasn't being "abused" but was done so that more money went back to the restaurant. After another year, you were only allowed to get 50% discount on food if you are on break, or just got off break. No family members get the discount. We were mad, we thought that we were being treated unfairly and that our trust and work were not valued. Take in mind, this restaurant I work at was #1 in the nation among the rest in the franchise.
-The restaurant has a bar and usually the staff are allowed to hang out after work to wind down and enjoy a beer or two. This was stopped after it became a "distraction" to the current working staff. Now after we are clocked out, we are told to leave. Sometimes even escorted by the manager (usually it is the ****head one that forces this). This was immediately declared BS. Customers and even working employees distracted each other, what would it hurt to have a few people from the previous shift hang out for 20 minutes after working and relax?
-The changing room for the men is a small bathroom with a stack of lockers that can at most hold a pair of shoes. Usually the kitchen staff put their work shoes in there so you can only imagine the smell that comes from there. The other option is to bring a bag and hang it from the hooks in there and risk your stuff being stolen. I once had my Addidas Samba's hidden for stealing (the culprit took my shoes, wrapped them in plastic bags several times over and put it on top of the lockers. After we found out who did it we fired him, no surprise, turned out to be a huge soccer fan). The women have TWO places to change, with one room having a camera that watches their possessions. See the unfairness here?
I tried taking pride in my job but it is hard to do when our staff is being treated unfairly and as if we're nothing. When your employer considers you nothing more than just a way to bring in money and not as a person, you become disenchanted with the workplace. If I am not considered a person then I will not act like one and well perform my tasks at the bare minimum acceptance rate that won't get me fired. Why try harder? I'm not getting any benefits or praise or the lure of a raise.
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even when both are public servants there is an adversarial angle to managment/supervision.
I find that management is more concerned with career than making things better.. they are mostly just a certain style of haircut and a walking personality defect so far as I am concerned.
down in the trenches... a good supervisor gets as much done as he can before management sabatages his efforts... most of the guys will work together and make things work for everyone but management seems to want to interfere.
lazs
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Thank goodness for the company I work for now. In the last 6 years we have had tremendous growth and are just now getting to the point of needing to upgrade our cutting and welding areas. The money was allocated last year and the machines have been ordered (all US owned and US built equipment even though we are a German owned company) and once they are all here we will begin the expansion process.
Our owner understands the needs of helping keep manufacturing strong in this nation because he grew up and watched his fathers pipe shop get rebuilt after WW2 with US built equipment. He is even looking for US steel pipe suppliers to ship material to Germany and is thinking of building a heat treating facility here in Alabama to help us with our growing business.
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Part of the equation is leadership... An intangible quality that distinguishes a "manager", someone who monitors and shepards an existing physical process, and a "leader", one who motivates and guides people to accomplish things they would otherwise not want or be capable of doing.
WWII brought leaders out of the woodwork. There is a reason why that is the "greatest generation"... The leaders of that generation learned their true capabilities in the hottest cruicble imaginable. Nowadays, a crisis is defined as having a worker who insists on wearing an earring against company policy. Is it any wonder why the current generation of young workers appears to be adrift?
There is no one cause, but true leadership is one answer... In fact, it is the only solution to the particularly modern malaise that seems to be affecting our young workforce. They have not faced true hardship, and without true leadership they will not rise to their full potential.
True leaders, ones who do not chase polls or engage in fruitless popularity contests, are rare today. The military tries to screen for and breed leaders of this type, but even when deliberately sought after and encouraged, they remain rare. When we find ourselves trying to legislate a behavioral status quo instead of relying on institutional pride to guide behavior, we find ourselves pushing the proverbial rope, trying to lead from behind with a whip.
Lead from the front, by example. One strong leader is worth a thousand regulations, policies, propaganda posters.
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To me... a manager should be asking the people below him what he can get for them to help them do a better job not blame them for his failures.
lazs
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I forgot to add that those who whine and b**** as new employees or even the ones we have had for a while tend to get bounced out the door fairly quickly. Our attitude is you come to work to get the job done at whatever the cost but family and health is always first for everyone here. There are opportunities to move up within our company and I moved from the shop into sales and still spend about a week a month working in the shop helping to pull orders and get them prepared for shipping. It keeps me focused and helps me to remember the entire process and how long it takes an order to go from my hands through the shop and out the door. I learned that from one of those men that eagl talked about...my grandfather. Things are a little different here in Alabama in that most people here want to work for a living and will gladly do so to help their families. Sure there is that infectious attitude described above in the younger workers but it usually gets worked out of them or they don't get a job after they get fired.
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The resone the work force stinks in the car business is that the owners and managment screw the sales people so bad...no wonder Young guys in this business get a bitter taste in there mouth and have the bad attitudes they do.....In this business if you make too much money they change your pay plan.......or fire you and find a person that can do it cheaper!!
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I have managed staffs since the 80's of various sizes ranging from 5 employees to 120 and I can add a few choice observations to the picture maybe.
In SW florida in the 80's unemployment rate was 10%+, a job ad in the paper would bring in 250 resumes a week. People actually had to try and do a good job because they knew that several thousand people wanted thier current job.
In the mid 90's unemployment rate dropped finally below 10%, a job ad in the paper only brought in 25 resumes, employees could act up, less people wanted thier jobs...Employees started coming in late everyday, calling out sick once a month, and calling a lawyer everytime they felt threatened or misunderstood.
Year 2000: Unemployment rate is nationally 4.7-4.9% a job ad in the paper would bring in 3 resumes all asking for 100K a year-none with any experience, all wearing shorts and flipflops at the interview. The ones who were hired drank on the job, smoked joints on break on the roof and occasionally left a crack pipe on the bathroom sink by mistake. Management offered bonuses to those who werent late everyday, no bonuses were given out though...
2001: All hell breaks out...An employment ad produces 2000 resumes an hour some from as far away as "Aritria Africa... Dr Magumba" arrive.... Productivity based on Sales is at a company all time high...Surprise..
2006: Shorts and flipflops rule the interview again.... Everyone is lieing on thier resume, all want 100K salaries and oak desks.... Management tired of the crap outsources to russia/Kiev.... Productivety based on sales volume is at an all time high...who cares what the russians wear, they never complain, dont threaten us with lawyers and projects are as behind as they were when we didn't outsource but cost 40% less...
I got a huge bonus for being creative and making the company an extra million or more.... I sent the russians a case of vodka for the fun of it...they send me porn emails now, lifes good...
TJ
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Welcome to the "Entitlement" generation of union workers, Hajo. Its why we're losing so much to overseas (Attitude, pay scales, union greed) Hows the bimmer running? Got it out of storage for the summer yet?
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Unions aren't the reason why we're losing so much overseas. It's greed. Simple as that. IIRC, the number of union employees is something like 8% of the workforce.
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Originally posted by Kaw1000
..In this business if you make too much money they change your pay plan.......or fire you and find a person that can do it cheaper!!
lol, i was in the car biz for 40 yrs, and that happens all the time, happened to me, i made too much money so they "adjusted" my pay plan.
the bean counters expect you to work at 110-120 % of the flat rate, if you are under the number they think you are slaking if you are over they think the pay plan is wrong, so you have to work at the numbers they expect and everyone is happy.
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There is no doubt that the American workplace had gone down hill considerably in the last couple decades. The two biggest reasons I have seen are this:
First is exactly what Pei brought up. I can't speak for the steel industry but I have worked in a lot of other fields and the biggest reason there is no company loyalty is because the company doesn't care about it’s employees anymore. It's all about cutting costs, at the employee's expense, just to make a profit for the stock holders for the coming quarter. Every year we see more and more benefits get taken away, companies paying less and less for health care or dropping it altogether, laying people off in droves and just a general attitude of employees being little paws to move or sacrifice for personal gain. The CEO's and board members are in the company just long enough to suck out what they can before they move on to the next victim. I used to have pride in the company I worked for until they outsourced my entire department to another company, who promptly got bought out. We lost most of our benefits, healthcare costs have doubled and they fired half the staff. I'm still here but somewhere the pride fell by the wayside.
The second is the new generation entering the work force. They have no respect for authority. They have grown up in schools where they know they can pretty much do what they want in the classroom and the teacher can't do a thing about it. Most of them would benefit greatly from a good spanking with the board of education. Mom and dad both work and they have too much unsupervised free time. College isn't any better. They live in some pseudo-reality where everyone is born entitled to the best life can give them for no effort on their part and if they don't get there perceived due, they'll just sue for it. They have yet to learn that real education begins when you leave collage.
I watch clueless dolts enter the workplace, watch friends get fired because of company greed, see on the news that a CEO gets 1.6 billion dollars for being in the right place at the right time and it all just makes me sad.
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Interesting article about General Motors and the UAW....while chatting about Unions.
Where Would General Motors Be Without the United Automobile Workers Union? (http://www.mises.org/story/2124)
In sum, without the UAW, General Motors would not be faced with extinction. Instead, it would almost certainly be a vastly larger, far more prosperous company, producing more and better motor vehicles than ever before, at far lower costs of production and prices than it does today, and providing employment to hundreds of thousands more workers than it does today.
Few things are more obvious than that the role of the UAW in relation to General Motors has been that of a swarm of bloodsucking leeches, a swarm that will not stop until its prey exists no more.
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Ripsnort! Hiyas my friend! How are you and the family doing?
Yep....the Bimmer is out of the garage and top down weather here already.
My sweet little Z3 will be 6 years old next month and has a whooping 12,600 miles on it lol.
I do hope when time allows I'll see you in the hostile skies of Aces High in the near future.