Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LEDPIG on April 21, 2006, 10:07:32 AM
-
Found this article on the internet, it's an amazing piece of history and much can be said about life listening to this mans exploits. Although Galland was fighting for a Nazi force, his chivalry and honor even in the face of the situation are amazing. The fact that he became friends with Douglas Bader and went to great lenghts to get him artificial legs after he was captured is a study in humanity all of us should strive for. The fact that he was able to stand up to Hitler because people considered him the leader and everyone else was scared to do it (including Goring ) shows how little and inconsequential they were and how honorable Galland was. The interviews shows how Hitler and Goring were stupid little know it alls, (who knew nothing) and when Galland and others would stand up to their stupidity, unselfishly to do what was right for their country they got blamed for it. It is always amazing to me how young people will lay down their lives to people who are in supposed authority when they themselves know little or nothing else more than they do. It appears we have some of this today in our own government leaders use of our own military, and their lack of abilty to take responsibilty or criticism for putting our soldiers lives with their backs against the wall to take responsibility for their own mistakes, to sell you a pack of lies while countless innocent Americans die. Any way i guess it is true that history repeats itself for those not intelligent enough to listen to it.
HERES THE LINK:
http://members.aol.com/geobat66/galland/wwii_int.htm
-
Yes, let us all look up to someone who fought for the Nazis and their ideals as a model of honor, integrity and humanity...
ack-ack
-
I think you are confusing Galland as a nazi, Galland was probably a German not one of the disgusting Nazi's, although many germans fought for the German army alot of them were not nazi's alot of them did not want to and were forced to by being born in that time in that place, it unfortunalely was the nazi army. Often times in war people are forced to fight in situations they do not want to and only a few of the crazy people who started the war actually fight leaving other people to be subservient to them. I think Galland was more a case of someone who liked flying being born at the wrong time (or right time whatever way you look at it) having to fight for the country he was born into unfortunately germany.
-
just because they fought for there country doesnt make them a nazi,not all germans were nazis,
its like saying the americans who fought in vietnam weer all they same they had people who didnt agree with there government but they still fought becasue they were trainded to do there duty.
-
edited: see rule #4
very poor form Ack-Ack
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
edited: see rule #4
very poor form Ack-Ack
Hmmm.
I think I'm with Ack-Ack.
- oldman
-
Ditto.
I have zip respect and absolutely no admiration whatsoever for anyone who fought for the Nazis and the Fascist. By thier willing participation they aided the Nazis dark, murderous aims and supported the Axis goals of conquest and subjugation.
I have some modicrum of respect for Rommel because at least he died while actively trying to eliminate the cancerous evil that was leading his country to kill millions and ruin most of Europe.
-
Originally posted by Westy
Ditto.
By thier willing participation they aided the ... dark, murderous aims and supported the ... goals of conquest and subjugation.
Be careful where you cast stones. Especially when one's house has significant portions made of glass.
-
Originally posted by Westy
Ditto.
I have zip respect and absolutely no admiration whatsoever for anyone who fought for the Nazis and the Fascist. By thier willing participation they aided the Nazis dark, murderous aims and supported the Axis goals of conquest and subjugation.
I have some modicrum of respect for Rommel because at least he died while actively trying to eliminate the cancerous evil that was leading his country to kill millions and ruin most of Europe.
Well, when it comes to fighter pilots... If I was in a position where I'd qualify to fly a fighter, and I looked up and saw 1000 bomber raids absolultely destroying my homeland, killing my friends and family, I'd probably go up there too. Or at least I'd hope I'd be brave enough to.
-
Galland "stood up" to Goring only a few times-notably mouthing off back to him whenever Goring called the Fighter wings cowardly or impotent...Galland actually got along pretty well with Goring...they had a give and take relationship and Galland could talk back to him without fear of any repercussion. Galland could mouth off to Goring all the time-and he did, this is not "standing up to anyone" thou. For all the back talking Galland speaks of doing in his book, he stayed General of the Fighters for the entire war-until at the very end, he was moved into organizing the jet squad. He was forced out once, only once in the entire war and that was rescinded quickly by Hitler-it was only at the end that he went to the 44 squad-to last that long at one position-as general of fighters- is a remarkable testament to Galland's ability at generalship AND HIS ABITLITY TO STOMACHE BOTH GORING AND HITLER.
They were cogs in the same machine and worked together for 4.5 years. Through all the stresses of war and destruction, their relationship lasted a remarkably long time.
The orginal poster implies that Galland stood up to Goring and other know nothings-not true. The only ones who stood up to the know nothings found themselves hanging from meat hooks in a cellar, being filmed in technicolor for the eye of any future leaders who might "stand up".
-
lol akak, nice one. :D
-
Galland. One of the finest aviators and soldiers ever to fly. A wonderful man and a great leader.
(http://www.acepilots.com/german/galland.jpg)
-
He kept in touch with many of his brit friends after the war-hunting and fishing with them. The bonds they formed in combat, trying to kill each other out lasted the terror each side inflicted upon the other during the war.
He did what he had to do to survive the war...and he was not a nazi-for sure...and to have his fellow enemies reach out and desire to be in his company is good a enough testament for me on the type of man he was.
I just didnt like the original poster's message that the guy stood up to Hitler/Goring. He didnt -he remained at his post attempting to do the best he could do.
The guys that stood up were a different breed altogether. They fought like Galland AND then, by truly standing up, risked extreme tortue to themselves, thier friends and their children and wives. I wish I could find a good book of staffenburg (if thats even how to spell it) There was a really brave soul.
-
Vudak are you implying that Galland and the German air force pilots were simply honorable, innocent volunteers who simply rushed to defend thier homeland against unwarranted aggression and blitzkrie_, er surprise attacks by an evile Allied Coalition?
"when one's house has significant portions made of glass."
Not my house. I didn't support Vietnam, Granada, Panama, Beiruit nor the invasion of Iraq. And fortunately (for now) there's no Gestapo or SS to take me or my family in for torture or to kill us for me saying so.
-
C'mon guys, lighten up, it's not like Galland, through his deeds and actions, was responsible for the deaths of thousands, or tens of thousands of people.
Oh, wait...
-
Originally posted by Westy
Vudak are you implying that Galland and the German air force pilots were simply honorable, innocent volunteers who simply rushed to defend thier homeland against unwarranted aggression and blitzkrie_, er surprise attacks by an evile Allied Coalition?
No, but I am saying that just because they fought for Germany doesn't necessarily make them (all) evil people.
And as for innocent vounteers, well, perhaps not Galland, but others certainly were.
-
where's nopoop and his wittle nazis when you need them?
-
I just recently re-read "The First and the Last" by Galland. For everyone even remotely interested in WW2 airwar, I'd recommend that to. I didn't see any fascism from him there - in fact he had friends (esp. a lady friend) whom the Nazi party were monitoring. Then again, I might be biased, since Finland got all that help from the evil Nazis during WW2... But I'll still say he was a great fighter pilot and a great leader.
"Galland. One of the finest aviators and soldiers ever to fly. A wonderful man and a great leader."
-
Originally posted by LEDPIG
. It is always amazing to me how young people will lay down their lives to people who are in supposed authority when they themselves know little or nothing else more than they do. It appears we have some of this today in our own government leaders use of our own military, and their lack of abilty to take responsibilty or criticism for putting our soldiers lives with their backs against the wall to take responsibility for their own mistakes, to sell you a pack of lies while countless innocent Americans die. Any way i guess it is true that history repeats itself for those not intelligent enough to listen to it.
HERES THE LINK:
http://members.aol.com/geobat66/galland/wwii_int.htm
hey i get it....boosh=hitler, galland=john kerry.
-
Originally posted by nark
He kept in touch with many of his brit friends after the war-hunting and fishing with them. The bonds they formed in combat, trying to kill each other out lasted the terror each side inflicted upon the other during the war.
He did what he had to do to survive the war...and he was not a nazi-for sure...and to have his fellow enemies reach out and desire to be in his company is good a enough testament for me on the type of man he was.
I'm with most guys that Galland was defininately not a nazi if he truly was i wouldn't have any respect for him.I feel most times in a government there are only a few card carrying members of any murderous regime that must be surgically removed like cancer, we must attack them instead of each other. At one point in the interview Galland even says that all of hitler's stupid mistakes cost germany the war and that was a good thing. When he says things like that, that tells me what side of the boat he was really on. My point is the horror of war and the pain and evil it inflicts on both sides, i often believe the little people fighting in a war have little to do with it. It's the evil bastards, alot of time the leaders of it that must be killed. I hope if war comes again the young people who would be asked to fight the war on both sides would stand up against the leaders that would cause it and tell them no, instead they should kill themselves.
-
if galland had defected to england and flown with the RAF, then he would have been hero.
-
Originally posted by john9001
if galland had defected to england and flown with the RAF, then he would have been hero.
GOOD POINT !!
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Yes, let us all look up to someone who fought for the Nazis and their ideals as a model of honor, integrity and humanity...
ack-ack
Probably the best troll in the BBS that I have ever seen!! LMFAO. <> AKAK
-
News flash, you can still fight for your country and disagree with it's government. We have quite a few soldiers in Iraq right now who disagree with the current administration but they proudly and bravely fight for the lives of their fellow soldiers and for their country.
There were men of honor and integrity on all sides during WWII. I expected a little more from some on this BBS but C'est la Vie.
Galland was more of a man then most of the naysayers here.
-
Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party but ended up being one of the good guys.
-
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
[
There were men of honor and integrity on all sides during WWII.
My point exactly:aok
-
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
News flash, you can still fight for your country and disagree with it's government. We have quite a few soldiers in Iraq right now who disagree with the current administration but they proudly and bravely fight for the lives of their fellow soldiers and for their country.
There were men of honor and integrity on all sides during WWII. I expected a little more from some on this BBS but C'est la Vie.
Galland was more of a man then all of the naysayers here.
Fixed it for ya!
-
The guy continued to fly for germany through the late 1970's.. serving as one of the top generals of the modern Luftwaffe.
A man can be a soldier, a patriot, and still despise his government.
Think about that.
-
You know, when I visited the Virginia Bader Fine Arts store back in the Spring of '90 I got lucky. Bought a print of an Emil done by Mike Wooten that had D. Hrabak, G. Rall, and A. Galland's signatures on it and for no extra charge as well. I still look at his signature with awe. Any way you look at him he accomplished alot. I figure if he can be friends with Bader, Mahan, Blakeslee, Johnson, etc, then he must be alright. Never saw a photo of those guys with Rudel which should tell you something...
-
especialy when you're getting payed to fly hot planes.
i have an unedited []1st & teh last[/b] manuscript.
in the epilogue it says
Sure hitler was teh 3vi1, but i got liek 70 m0nth$$ of free AH. d000d!!1!1!!!11
-
Yeah, Diablo - while Rudel has been a character, I still ain't sure I would have wanted to see him... But I've met Rall once (2003 (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/feature/photoreports/guntherrall2003/)), he'll be coming to Finland again in May --- too bad I'm in Berlin during that visit for the ILA Berlin Air Show (http://www.ila-berlin.com/ila2006/airshow/index_e.cfm)...
-
Originally posted by LEDPIG
At one point in the interview Galland even says that all of hitler's stupid mistakes cost germany the war and that was a good thing. When he says things like that, that tells me what side of the boat he was really on.
Yeah, the same sinking boat Hitler was on.
I think Galland's criticism of Hitler was more on certain things like invading the Soviet Union so early, going to war with the West sooner than the generals wanted. Bet he was dancing the jig when Paris fell and had a smile on his face when he stood on the French coast and saw the white cliffs of Dover and thought it was just a matter of time before he'd be drinking champagne in London.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
The guy continued to fly for germany through the late 1970's.. serving as one of the top generals of the modern Luftwaffe.
A man can be a soldier, a patriot, and still despise his government.
Think about that.
I think your mistaking him for Eric Hartmann. Galland went to Argentina with the rest of the Nazis after the war and helped the Argentinean air force as a consultant. He returned to Germany in the 1950s and never worked for the military again. The only thing he flew in Germany post WWII was a Beechcraft Bonanza that he bought.
Galland may have been a gentleman warrior and even humane, but he was also a Nazi.
-
Let it be said that I don’t hate Galland for being a nazi during the war. Most Nazis were just patriots who bought the very seducing Nazi propaganda, fed to them from every media and even in the schools. Most of them simply made an error in judgment. A mistake I can forgive.
-
what good leader in war does not picture sitting in the enemy's capital drinking thier wine and women?
you're telling me you think invading any weaker civilization and policing it no matter what the natives say is better than a full on combat?
you're saying that because he pictured winning the war for his country he is a scum bag? how foolish can you be?
The Nazis were just the last in a long line of brutality in war that was large enough to piss everyone off. Just because America is a new world founded on certain things you all love, you may feel good about it, but many of your ancestors would have been guilty of such crimes against humanity in the european warzone over a few millenia. and that American Indians were culled like livestock in your own brief history. similar to the jews? not much considering the jews have been ragged on for longer than god remembers.
you should remember that yoooropeans have been fighting each other for centuries, in a broad and varied feudal system. the are definite classes of people and the few rich and noble families serve the King or Queen.
When these wars broke out the nobles of the countries lead them to war all, of course, under the pretence of politics and government.
been happening for along time, and that what a real war and all warfare used to consist of.
you would react very amusingly if a german member of this board should tear patton or some other past, most likely dead person that you feel patriotic about.
first your country goes to war, then you either forgive each other or fight again. thats how its done.
-
Good thing Galland wasn't an Illinois Nazi. I hate Illinois Nazi's.
-
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Good thing Galland wasn't an Illinois Nazi. I hate Illinois Nazi's.
LOL love that movie:)
shamus
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
you would react very amusingly if a german member of this board should tear patton or some other past, most likely dead person that you feel patriotic about.
It's very interesting that you mention Patton, Batfink. My father used to have one of Patton's drivers as a client. The man told stories of shooting Germans who surrendered, some very young, in order to maintain the advance. It was simply too time consuming to process them.
When my father asked "isn't that a war crime?" the man replied, "they're only war crimes if you lose."
Now, whether or not this man was telling the truth, who knows, from what I've read of Patton, I'm not inclined to disbelieve it, though I'm sure it could be argued either way. But anyone who has ever studied the Russian Front knows his point is correct.
At any rate, holding the war or the Holocaust against Galland is absurd. He started his career well before the war, anyway. It's not like he just jumped on the bandwagon when Poland was invaded. And It's also not as though the Luftwaffe was straffing concentration camps.
-
Originally posted by uvwpvW
Let it be said that I don’t hate Galland for being a nazi during the war. Most Nazis were just patriots who bought the very seducing Nazi propaganda, fed to them from every media and even in the schools. Most of them simply made an error in judgment. A mistake I can forgive.
You can't possibly be serious?
- oldman
-
Now this is a Nazi:
Hajo Hermann from the Wiki-
He was captured by the Russians after the war and was held prisoner for ten years. Back in Germany he studied law and settled in Düsseldorf. Among others, he defended these deniers of the holocaust: Otto Ernst Remer, David Irving and the American, self styled "expert for gas chambers" Fred A. Leuchter. To this day, he denies Germanys responsibility for starting WWII.
Yeah, I'd say Galland is in the same league...
-
galland = loser = pwnd
-
...The winners write the history....
WW2 was a dirty fight for all sides and pointing out Germans only is just plain stupid. They started, allies finished. Atrocities were made by everyone. The jews killed by Nazis. Bombing of Dresden. Hiroshima+ Nagasagi....list goes on forever.
But pointing out that some particular soldier who just did what he could for his country in that situation is stupid.
A term Nazi -> all young boys were forced to join Hitler Jugend. Does that make all of them Nazis? I think that particular word is reserved for another kind of people in which I don´t count Adolf Galland.
-
Galland opposed Göring in the end, and had a suggestion to take poison, like Rommel did.
At one occation he ripped his medals off and flung them on the table in front of Göring.
Mölders stopped wearing his medals for a political reason.
They are a long way from die-hard Nazis like Rudel, which Rall describes as crazy.
-
Leave it to me to start intelligent and interesting discussion, talk amongst yourselves now.. lol
-
You guys use terms like "Nazi" to describe what? Rudel for instance was never a member of NSDAP but he was as 'right-wing' as they come. Rudel was a member of the Allgemeine-SS, joining in 1936 but never joined the 'party'. Galland was never a 'party member' either.
The Wehrmacht had a tradition, and for the most upheld that tradition through out WW2, that officers were not to be active members of political parties. In fact in the old Reich's army it was forbidden to belong to any political organization. Of course that doesn't mean that they did support or favor one party or leader over another.
§ 26 of the Wehrgesetz:
Politik in der Wehrmacht.(1) Die Soldaten dürfen sich politisch nicht betätigen. Die Zugehörigkeit zur NSDAP oder zu einem der ihr angeschlossenen Verbände ruht für die Dauer des aktiven Wehrdienstes.
Basically states that members of the Wehrmacht, who were members of political party, could not actively work for said party, they were 'inactive'. After the July '44 plot against Hitler serving members of the Wehrmacht were prohibited from joining any political party.
There were of course exceptions. The Luftwaffe, for example, was most modern branch of the Wehrmacht and as such was much more closely associated with the NSDAP. In fact Hitler is quoted as saying:
I have an imperial army, a catholic navy and a National Socialist air force
There are plenty of examples of Luftwaffe personnel belonging to the party, Walter Nowotny for one. There were many submariners who were party members as well. However, membership in the NSDAP was generally rare among Luftwaffe airmen and was actually frowned upon by others.
Was Galland a 'Nazi'..? Who cares... I don't find him all that interesting anyway. His post war comments have always had a hint of blame directed at others rather then excepting responsibility for his own mistakes and failures. However, because he was a leading member of the Luftwaffe no more makes him a Nazi then any one serving in the US armed forces now would be considered 'republicans'. Much like now there were plenty folks serving their country who did so out of their own sense of duty rather then some obligation to the NSDAP or Hitler. Soldiers don't fight for some abstract ideal, they fight for each other and their families.
Like many of us they had faith and believed their government when they out lined their reasons for war. That trust was betrayed and abused by criminals.
-
Originally posted by john9001
if galland had defected to england and flown with the RAF, then he would have been hero.
Then he would have been a traitor to his country, a man who broke his oath to his nation's armed forces and the oath to fight for his country.
But as now, Galland is a true patriot, one of the finest leaders and warriors the history of humankind has produced, and a real figurehead worth having as an example.
-
Oh no! A traitor to nazi Germany!
I've known some old fellas living in the states who were german soldiers in wwII, pretty good old guys, but make no mistake, I know that they were nazis. He sure wasn't fighting in the german resistance.
Notice how all the crimes of the nazis are pinned on to a handful of nazi leaders, but never the nation of people that executed the crimes.
-
Originally posted by LEDPIG
Leave it to me to start intelligent and interesting discussion...
You did? Must have missed that thread...
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi party but ended up being one of the good guys.
Yanno I've often given this thought.
Was he really one of the good guys or was he just a smart buisnessman that played to both sides of the isle to try to insure his own survival?
As for the Germans. Many were Nazis. Many were not.
Many simply fought for their country be it right or wrong.
I think if it were this country and llets say Iraq suddenly were able to mount a counter attack and start attacking and invading us here.
I dont think you would see many who opposed the war at its outset refuse to fight in defence of this country.
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I think if it were this country and llets say Iraq suddenly were able to mount a counter attack and start attacking and invading us here.
I dont think you would see many who opposed the war at its outset refuse to fight in defence of this country.
That scenario isn't Galland. He was bombing and strafing Spaniards long before WWII started.
As Charon pointed out several years ago, there's an inherent irony in saying that the German flyers were just defending their country. Right: defending it over Madrid, Warsaw, Holland, Norway, Belgium, France, England, Yugoslavia, Greece, Africa....
- oldman
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Probably the best troll in the BBS that I have ever seen!! LMFAO. <> AKAK
Heh..and it wasn't even his thread.
:D
Maybe him and Ledpig had this planned out.
-
Originally posted by Grendel
Then he would have been a traitor to his country, a man who broke his oath to his nation's armed forces and the oath to fight for his country.
August 20, 1934 mandatory loyalty oaths were introduced throughout the Reich...
Article 1. The public officials and the soldiers of the armed forces must take an oath of loyalty on entering service.
Article 2
The oath of loyalty of the soldiers of the armed forces will be:
'I swear by God this sacred oath: I will render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich and people, Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces, and will be ready as a brave soldier to risk my life at any time for this oath.'
These oaths were pledged to Hitler personally, not the German state or constitution. And they were taken very seriously by members of the German Officers' Corps with their traditional minded codes of honor, which now elevated obedience to Hitler as a sacred duty and effectively placed the German armed forces in the position of being the personal instrument of Hitler.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_oath
-
Before you judge you have to place yourself in the situation and ask. 'What would I do?'. You also have to remember the context, Germany's defeat in WW1 and the myth that it had been betrayed.
I know that whatever my doubts about the Nazis. I would have tried to have become a fighter pilot in the Luftwaffe. I would fight for my country.
I recently read a book on Auschwitz. One point the author made really cleared it up for me. He found that Soviets or Japanese who committed atrocities always blamed the system or fear of authority but Germans or more specifically Nazis often felt that it was 'the right thing to do'. In fact there were often cases where SS men refused to take part in killings and were rarely persecuted. Gas chambers came about in part because of the traumatic effect of shooting so many people was having on many SS men. You also cannot underestimate the effect of Goebbels propaganda had on people who already had an underlying prejudice against foreigners and Jews.
So it's easy to judge when you live in a free country with the benefit of hindsight. Even so how many of us know people who would be enthusiastic Nazis should our own countries fall under fascist rule? I know a few.
-
Seems to me there is a way to tell whether a German who fought in the war is worthy of honor or not. Answer a simple question..
Did you know about the death camps?
Galland as a general officer probably did know. This drops him into the "no honor" catagory as far as I'm concerned.
-
Well, let's just look at present day America:
* There's an unpopular war that's bankrupting us
* Inflation at the pumps, and in other areas, is killing us
* Job security? What's that term?
* There's a massive wave of immigrants who, generally speaking, are blamed for many (or most) of the problems in this country - crime, healthcare costs, high taxes, low job security, possible terror leaks, etc., etc., etc.,
It will be very interesting to see how we all handle these things in the coming years. Call me an alarmist, but I could see this Republic being challeneged from the inside within a few decades.
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
You can't possibly be serious?
- oldman
Why? Being a Nazi was a political view and culture. As long as the person wasn't involved in crimes against humanity I can forgive them. Same goes for the communists.
-
To me hitler, goring those were the real A#$%oles, they should have been killed in the most terrible way, everyone else that was in WW2 was just a victim, the whole world was a victim, including the people from other countries. The true orchestrators of the violence are the ones i'm mad at but i think people and soldiers from other countries not just the americans were as much victims as we were. Unless of course you were a card carrying flag toting member of the ss then those people MUST DIE! WERE EVER THEY RAISE THERE HEAD. :mad: :furious
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Yanno I've often given this thought.
Was he really one of the good guys or was he just a smart buisnessman that played to both sides of the isle to try to insure his own survival?
As for the Germans. Many were Nazis. Many were not.
Many simply fought for their country be it right or wrong.
I think if it were this country and llets say Iraq suddenly were able to mount a counter attack and start attacking and invading us here.
I dont think you would see many who opposed the war at its outset refuse to fight in defence of this country.
i tend to agree, he (O.S.) was loved and celebrated by the jews as a near god.
Funny how the situations of the time make a man who doesnt murder some of the people he has been ordered to a hero. ten years later he wouldnt have had the opertunity to make a very easy and obviously compasionate descision and achieve never ending fame for such a small action, that the vast majority of the world's people might never have let themselves be involved with in the first place.
never the less, history was good to him and he did make a change to the lives of many, he is a hero.
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
You can't possibly be serious?
- oldman
Took the words right out of my mouth..errr fingers. :)
I`ll have to be excused if I don`t break out the "respect" candles and hold a ceremony for the damn Nazis.
-
What would you have done if your country went to war?
i think the vast majority of people dont have a realistic enough imagination of the individual's mind and how life is percieved by another life form to yourself.
while i would say now i would revolt against the nazi rule if i were in his shoes, how do i know what his shoes felt like?
our own armies are right now commiting war crimes as we speak, just because we beat the nazis does this mean we can now emulate them in minor ways?
The lasrgest war crime of the 2nd world war on an equal level to the jewish excecutions was the 2 big bombs we dropped to wipe out an entire nation of civillians in two bombing raids.
and now the world is a mess because we all know that Abombs are going to be the next war without a doubt. so the guilty parties of the only large scale use of nuclear weapons thus far in mans history are running about the globe frantically trying not to let anyone more people have the potential to return the favour.
WW2 was the war of all wars, and it was ended with many grudges that will last hundreds of years, as we can see by the strong opinions of everyone here.
If a lasting world peace and no more use of nuclear weapons is the future of mankind, it would be more of a shock thean curing AIDs with a bowl of soup and some rice.
-
Oh dear, Bruno:
"Was Galland a 'Nazi'..? Who cares... I don't find him all that interesting anyway"
You must be quite a great person yourself then, for most of the greatest rather have the opinion that he was very interesting. Be it Allies or Germans....
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
I`ll have to be excused if I don`t break out the "respect" candles and hold a ceremony for the damn Nazis.
I'm suprised at that. I thought you'd be all for it, given your view towards "subhumans" in other threads? :p
-
Ack-Ack et al, how do you feel about rev. Fred Phelps? Your way of thinking is awfully similar.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
our own armies are right now commiting war crimes as we speak, just because we beat the nazis does this mean we can now emulate them in minor ways?
The lasrgest war crime of the 2nd world war on an equal level to the jewish excecutions was the 2 big bombs we dropped to wipe out an entire nation of civillians in two bombing raids.
my god boy, your brain is so messed up , what have your liberial teachers been telling you?
-
Originally posted by john9001
my god boy, your brain is so messed up , what have your liberial teachers been telling you?
If you feel the need to argue with this guy, why don't you try proving him wrong instead of resorting to a personal attack straight away?
Note: I don't agree with him, because IMO the whole concept of "war crime" is subjective.
-
you finlanders really love the germans don't you? After all , you were allies in WW2.
prove him wrong? ok , the USA did not "wipe out an entire nation of civillians", Japan is still there and doing good.
-
You did it again. Where did I mention Germans BTW?
Personally I don't love Germans any more or less than . I wouldn't say that we were allies in WW2 though. They gave us considerable support in the very justified Continuation War, but our goals were not the same. Would you elaborate on your differing view?
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
What would you have done if your country went to war?
i think the vast majority of people dont have a realistic enough imagination of the individual's mind and how life is percieved by another life form to yourself.
while i would say now i would revolt against the nazi rule if i were in his shoes, how do i know what his shoes felt like?
our own armies are right now commiting war crimes as we speak, just because we beat the nazis does this mean we can now emulate them in minor ways?
The lasrgest war crime of the 2nd world war on an equal level to the jewish excecutions was the 2 big bombs we dropped to wipe out an entire nation of civillians in two bombing raids.
and now the world is a mess because we all know that Abombs are going to be the next war without a doubt. so the guilty parties of the only large scale use of nuclear weapons thus far in mans history are running about the globe frantically trying not to let anyone more people have the potential to return the favour.
WW2 was the war of all wars, and it was ended with many grudges that will last hundreds of years, as we can see by the strong opinions of everyone here.
If a lasting world peace and no more use of nuclear weapons is the future of mankind, it would be more of a shock thean curing AIDs with a bowl of soup and some rice.
I quoted this post so he can't chicken out (or come to his senses) and edit it.
J_A_B
-
"If you feel the need to argue with this guy, why don't you try proving him wrong instead of resorting to a personal attack straight away?"
I think Finland helped the Nazis kill about three million civilians, then they killed a few million more Russians and raped their women and pillaged their towns. We don't hear of this today because the Finnish government successfully covered it all up. Prove me wrong! Neener neener, you can't because I'll just say it's all part of the conspiracy!
See, you don't *need* to "disprove" an obviously stupid and false statement. Sometimes, it's better to point and laugh at the village idiot. Obviously, I don't really feel that way about Finland.
Finland was caught between a rock and a hard place during the second world war, and they managed to come out of it with their independence mostly intact. That's better than the rest of Eastern Europe managed.
The irrational America-hater above deserves comments I cannot post on this BBS.
J_A_B
-
Originally posted by J_A_B
I quoted this post so he can't chicken out (or come to his senses) and edit it.
J_A_B
congratulations, would you like me to type it up again, put it in bold six inch letters and pin it on your forehead?
-
Originally posted by J_A_B
I quoted this post so he can't chicken out (or come to his senses) and edit it.
J_A_B
So, aside from some insignificant irregularites, which part of his post do you think he should edit?
-
the biggest notion i have to edit it is the 3 or 4 typos.
-
On the subject of Oskar Shcindler you all act as if it was an easy decision to save all those Jewish people. He receieved pressure from the nazi's on all sides when he eas doing this and risked his own life time and time again to save these people no one cared about. If he was such a business man he could have easily made a killing (literally and financialy) instead of risking his own life and spending his own money to save people. It is commonly known that Oskar Shcindler spent so much of his personal fortune on this that he was bankrupt and was living in a small apartment after the war was over, compared to what he had before, he had nothing. He also was doing this right under the Germans noses and none of those nazi idiots figured it out. If he only cared about money he certainly never would have done this, not to mention the actual jewish people who vouch for him that were in the camp. He would have surely been imprisoned maybe killed, a selfish money hungry nazi business man would not have done this. As far as i am concerned it is the hardest thing to go against the flow in your own country when you have a group as terrible as the nazi's who might find out what your really up to any minute:D
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
That scenario isn't Galland. He was bombing and strafing Spaniards long before WWII started.
As Charon pointed out several years ago, there's an inherent irony in saying that the German flyers were just defending their country. Right: defending it over Madrid, Warsaw, Holland, Norway, Belgium, France, England, Yugoslavia, Greece, Africa....
- oldman
Actually I with that point I was more responding to the post Westy made.
As for Galland and the other fliers.
They were professional soldiers and they were doing what they were told to do.
Just as right or wrong our soldiers are doing now.
Thing too is a countries leader. Doesn't matter who it is can do almost anything and retain the support of the people so long as that country remains prosperous and highly successful at whatever it is they are doing.
Had we stormed through Iraq, Had there been no insurgence and all was peaceful there now Bush would have far more support then he does now.
In fact he could have gone into Syria, Iran and on and on and on and so long as the overwhelming success held up So would the support.
Look at Clinton. Certainly no gem of a president either. But he happened to be there during highly prosperous times and thus he maintained a fairly high level of support no matter what he did
So long as Germany was prosperous and remained highly successful he maintained a high popularity.
Once the successes became fewer and they started having setback after setback the popularity begins to wane.
People like to be associated with the winning team. Doesn't matter what the team is doing to win so long as its winning people will support it.
Once the team is loosing people abandon and will turn on it and even switch sides just to be associated with the winning side.
You can see this very effect in action almost nightly in the MA
-
Originally posted by Vudak
I'm suprised at that. I thought you'd be all for it, given your view towards "subhumans" in other threads? :p
Great reasoning there........................ .............for someone with a severe mental incapacity maybe.
Let me splain sumin to you Luuucy. I watched my Dad hobble around on two feet that most wouldn`t have even tryed to walk on after fighting the Nazis until the day he died in `97. Respect for Nazis? No sir, I have none.
-
These are the real German wartime heroes:
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERbonhoeffer.JPG)
Dietrich Bonhoffer
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERbeck.JPG)
Ludwig Beck
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERstauff.JPG)
Claus von Stauffenberg
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERtresckow.JPG)
Henning von Tresckow
(http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERschollS.JPG)
Sophie Scholl
In case you are not aware of the Scholl's role in active resistance, they formed the White Rose group. Eventually, they were beheaded for distributing anti-Nazi leaflets. She had this to say in court:
"Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did."
And there were many more than faces shown above. You see, some went along with it all, survived and wrote successful books after the war. Others lost their lives in active resistance.
The Wehrmacht had a tradition, and for the most upheld that tradition through out WW2, that officers were not to be active members of political parties.
A distortion of the truth. Any national army is a political entity, until it gives up that quality. You should perhaps pay attention to the spirit of that tradition rather than the so-called 'prohibitions' to party membership that you mention. The German High Command sold out any kind of autonomy - they betrayed the German people as much as the Nazis did. They could have stopped Hitler in '38, '39 etc etc.
-
I don't believe it. A dowding post I agree with.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
The lasrgest war crime of the 2nd world war on an equal level to the jewish excecutions was the 2 big bombs we dropped to wipe out an entire nation of civillians in two bombing raids.
oh please, must you show your ignorance every time you post something?
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by mora
Ack-Ack et al, how do you feel about rev. Fred Phelps? Your way of thinking is awfully similar.
Because I won't hold Galland in high esteem, I'm comparable to a man that spews hate in the name of God?
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
oh please, must you show your ignorance every time you post something?
I would have to add that two big bombs destroyed the majority of two cities, not an entire nation. As far as I can tell, Nagano and Sapporo were spared damage from Fat Man or Little Boy.
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because I won't hold Galland in high esteem, I'm comparable to a man that spews hate in the name of God?
ack-ack
According to him soldiers are responsible for the goverments policies.
You wrote:
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Yes, let us all look up to someone who fought for the Nazis and their ideals as a model of honor, integrity and humanity...
Yes, I see a similar pattern of thought there. I'm not saying that you are comparable though.
-
Here's a question for you.
Swap Chuck Yeager for Galland. Would Yeager NOT have fought for his country (Germany), and would Galland not have fought for the US?
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Great reasoning there........................ .............for someone with a severe mental incapacity maybe.
Let me splain sumin to you Luuucy. I watched my Dad hobble around on two feet that most wouldn`t have even tryed to walk on after fighting the Nazis until the day he died in `97. Respect for Nazis? No sir, I have none.
I won't bring over the highlight reel of your posts from another thread to explain my great reasoning.
At any rate, to your dad.
-
The Germans sunk many a fishing boat in our waters, machine-gunning the crew. Since we are and were a small nation, our losses were percentagewise more than the ones of the US.
It including some of my to-be great uncles.
We were not at war.
However, My wife and therefore half my family are German.
Read up and grow up some of you......
-
What's wrong with you people can't you disagree without insulting everyone, how old are you, you sound like kindergarten kids on a playground. Just listen to a point you don't have to agree with it, it doesn't make your opinion any less important. All of you here are making strong points it sounds quite interesting to me. Listen to this quote Martin Luther King said after the murder of Malcolm X
Quote
" I still see some people have not learned to be disagreeable without being violently disagreeable"
Can't our world learn from that statement
-
Originally posted by LEDPIG
What's wrong with you people can't you disagree without insulting everyone, how old are you, you sound like kindergarten kids on a playground.
Give it time, Ledpig, you too will join us! :t
-
Originally posted by Angus
Here's a question for you.
Swap Chuck Yeager for Galland. Would Yeager NOT have fought for his country (Germany), and would Galland not have fought for the US?
That’s a difficult one. On one hand Galland fought for the Nazis, on the other Yeager was a chute-shooting war-criminal. Yeah I think Yeager would have fought for the Nazis and killed helpless allied aircrew.
-
Ok.
My point was exactly this. Was there much of a difference personally between a German and Allied serviceman? Not really.
(And yet there was)
-
Yeager would have made a good luftwaffer.
He was pwnd by George Welch.
Being the victim of pwnage is a key LW characteristic.
-
Originally posted by Vudak
I won't bring over the highlight reel of your posts from another thread to explain my great reasoning./B]
About the wisest move you have made thus far.
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
About the wisest move you have made thus far.
Eh, not wise, it would just be overkill. Anyone who's been around already knows you're one of the BBS' premier bigots. And if you don't like being compared to a nazi, don't spout their rhetoric. >Shrug<
-
Originally posted by Vudak
Eh, not wise, it would just be overkill. Anyone who's been around already knows you're one of the BBS' premier bigots. And if you don't like being compared to a nazi, don't spout their rhetoric. >Shrug<
Hey slick...I`ll say it for you.........I don`t like studmuffins. I think they are a disgrace to the human race. I`m certainly not alone in this.
Now you can quit ***** footing around and deal with it.
You wish to call me Nazi? Do it. Be a man about it.
I`d suggest you do this in another thread so we can both get banned and be done with it.
If you find the comaparison there, then I feel for you in the real world.
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Hey slick...I`ll say it for you.........I don`t like studmuffins. I think they are a disgrace to the human race. I`m certainly not alone in this.
Now you can quit ***** footing around and deal with it.
You wish to call me Nazi? Do it. Be a man about it.
I`d suggest you do this in another thread so we can both get banned and be done with it.
If you find the comaparison there, then I feel for you in the real world.
Well, when someone suggests that a group of people are subhuman, should not expect human rights, and ought to be deported... Yep, I'd say I find the comparison.
Sorry for the hijack, everyone. I just found it amusing that one who claims to detest Nazis so much would advocate such "ideals."
I'll go now ;)
-
Originally posted by Vudak
Well, when someone suggests that a group of people are subhuman, should not expect human rights, and ought to be deported... Yep, I'd say I find the comparison.
Then like I said, I feel for you.
Gays are still going to be there whether I agree with their lifestyle or not.
No extermination was suggested by me, nor anyone else I`m aware of, such as done by the Nazis. And once again "gay" is not a race of people. Deported seems to be a term you have confused also.
You have a lot to learn.
I didn`t expect you to come out with it instead of beating around the bush. If you decide your up to it , the different thread offer stands.
I'll go now
2nd wise choice.
-
kill all the gay nazis!
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Gayhitler.jpg)(http://www.vip-hitech.com/cothy/icons/shoot.gif)
-
:rofl
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Seems to me there is a way to tell whether a German who fought in the war is worthy of honor or not. Answer a simple question..
Did you know about the death camps?
Galland as a general officer probably did know. This drops him into the "no honor" catagory as far as I'm concerned.
what does knowing about the camps have to do with anything?
What was he supposed to do? Protest against them and get him and/or his family inturned in one also?
Tell ya what. If given a choice between shooting you or having my family shot.Or inturning you in a camp or having my family inturned
You would loose
I'd be willing ot bet I would suffer the same fate if you were given those choices
-
On second thought... See rules 2, 5, 9, 15.
-
:D
-
Ssspringtimmmee...forrr Hit-lerrr...and Germany!!!
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
what does knowing about the camps have to do with anything?
Knowing about them and going along with them are two different things.
What was he supposed to do? Protest against them and get him and/or his family inturned in one also?
Someone with his contacts could have possibly done way more than protest. Organize comes to mind. When you see something going very wrong within your country, but you still go along with it, when in a position such as his, you have to make the choice of turning your back on the people of your country and your country itself or organizing against it. It`s the difference between traitor and patriot , so to speak.
Tell ya what. If given a choice between shooting you or having my family shot.Or inturning you in a camp or having my family inturned
Nothing new there. Some are willing to stand their ground for what they know is right, some sell out .
I'd be willing ot bet I would suffer the same fate if you were given those choice
That would be a bet you would lose. Not only in my case, but many, many in this country.
-
the detonation of two atomic bombs over two civillian targets is IMO, a serious war crime.
as for me being 'America hating' ..... at what point did you fail to understand the term 'we dropped'....looks like im throwing the blame at the allies, but seeing as germans did alot of the work lets blame them too for the bombs.
And infact, seeing as we were at war with japan, lets blame them too.
whole damn world always looking to find blame for their own shortcomings, so when an opposing statement is made, the majority of people become defencive on a personal level almost instantly, its very common and i do it myself, so dont worry.
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Knowing about them and going along with them are two different things.
Someone with his contacts could have possibly done way more than protest. Organize comes to mind. When you see something going very wrong within your country, but you still go along with it, when in a position such as his, you have to make the choice of turning your back on the people of your country and your country itself or organizing against it. It`s the difference between traitor and patriot , so to speak.
Nothing new there. Some are willing to stand their ground for what they know is right, some sell out .
That would be a bet you would lose. Not only in my case, but many, many in this country.
If it were just me. that would be one thing.
But my family is another.
If given a choice between my family suffering or yours...Yea. I'd sell out
I think most people would also.
Course you may be the exeption
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the detonation of two atomic bombs over two civillian targets is IMO, a serious war crime.
I think. Or I should say I know alot of WWII vets that would dissagree with you.
This is another classic example of trying to apply todays standards to past historical events.
At the time We were at war with the Axis. Not just their soldiers but the countries as a whole. We practiced what is known as total war. Where you are at war with a country in its entirety. To break the will of its people to fight.
Sherman practiced the same tactics in the now famous "March to the sea"
Was he also a War criminal?
The Japaneese werent exactly know for being kind to the populaces of the territories they captured either. Neither were the Germans.
Both took the gloves off and practiced total war
As the saying goes. "What goes around, comes around"
Tis a pity we are now afraid to take the gloves off anymore.
If we did, our current problems would be over very quickly.
We've gotten too soft.
A weakness I fear will be our downfall
-
I think. Or I should say I know alot of WWII vets that would dissagree with you.
This is another classic example of trying to apply todays standards to past historical events.
and your opposing opinion is a classic example of excusing what one nation considers fair play today and in that past with what another might think. just because 'we dont think' nukes are good thing in this day and age, someone who got nuked a while back might not agree
At the time We were at war with the Axis. Not just their soldiers but the countries as a whole. We practiced what is known as total war. Where you are at war with a country in its entirety. To break the will of its people to fight.
a very true point and not one i am about to argue about in any way.
Sherman practiced the same tactics in the now famous "March to the sea"
Was he also a War criminal?
is human vs human war on its own a crime by all together? to be a war criminal, you must do more than your duty in hurting your enemies. related to the nuke drops, the pilots are not the criminals, the people who decided to use it are, only in my opinion. killing militants is what war is about, killing civilians happens in war and is to be expected, evapotating a city is going too far.
The Japaneese werent exactly know for being kind to the populaces of the territories they captured either. Neither were the Germans.
Both took the gloves off and practiced total war
As the saying goes. "What goes around, comes around"
no, and they got what they knew was coming if they carried on fighting. should the allies have acted differently? probably not, but that doesnt make it any less of a crime to humanity.
Tis a pity we are now afraid to take the gloves off anymore.
If we did, our current problems would be over very quickly.
We've gotten too soft.
A weakness I fear will be our downfall
soft? we've gone hyper agresive, controlling anyone and anything that isnt a military match for us and doesnt please us.
i still see films of soldiers in warzones shouting warcries as they get another insurgent headshot on camera, we arnt soft its just the non combatants that have life so damn easy that think its all going gooey.
i dont doubt that your post has 100% validity in the minds of many, just throwing some opposing ideas, and a not targeting you at all by cutting up your statements.
S!
-
So, we're to the nuke as well..
Well, did you know that the casualties of storming Same goes to Okinawa.
There was a reason for the Nuke, - statistics. Experience gathered fighting the Japs from island to island you see...
And you've only begun seeing casualties when you think of China.....
-
it is wrong that one part of the world has crossed the boundery of using large nuclear bombs on non combatants. it justifies this as a viable conduct of war.
The islamic terrorists now have just as much right to claim to be 'at war' with who ever they like in the world as anyone, no matter how inane the reasons for the targets, and causing wide scale panic and death on civilian transport and to our lives is exactly the same warfare, and what you do if you cant get hold of nukes.
the problem i have with history in the last 100 years is that it went too fast. thousands of years of using the same codes and conducts of life and warfare suddenly brought to the world stage in two tremendous wars, culminating with half the world winning partly because of the big bomb. .... and then nothing, no more command and conquer, no more empires and shooting at tribes people to steal thier tobacco and mud hut. a couple of scare wars and constant bickering but nothing worth looking at twice.
Now the half of the world that 'won' the great wars are all acting as if they are still conquering factions years after peace.
does anyone think 70 years is long enough for enemies to forget a grudge? some of the individuals involved in those conflicts are still alive, and many who were affected by them are.
The world at present is like a school play ground half way through break time, there have been a few fights and some are licking thier wounds in the heat of others strutting thier victories, but no one is by any means beaten. coulpe of the less fortunates have determination in thier eyes and there is still a good 30 mins to go before the bell.
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the detonation of two atomic bombs over two civillian targets is IMO, a serious war crime.
Heh. But incinerating those two cities by firebombing, as we had done with all the other cities in Japan, was OK?
There was nothing uniquely horrible about the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, other than the fact that it only took one plane each, instead of 300.
- oldman
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
If it were just me. that would be one thing.
But my family is another.
You are talking on an individual basis, as if one man and his family were the end of it. That was not the case. This man had great influence and many contacts.
Look at it this way. If Hitler had been successful in what he wished to achieve, what would the family have been subject to then? A lifetime of cowering in fear and bowing to a madman is not protecting your family. It is selling out due to cowardice...............or... ...........you beleive in what he was trying to accomplish and support it. Support it enough to fight for it.
If given a choice between my family suffering or yours...Yea. I'd sell out
I`d fight to prevent either.
-
That's what you say......
Having the spine to do it is another thing.
Many a German was executed for working against the system, and their attempts were futile. What do you do with a system like that?
As for the soldiers on the front, they often didn't know all about what was going on. It was happening behind them.
And Dowding you can basically add Canaris on to your list. Although the head of the Abwehr, he was involved in the plot against Hitler. Hitler's men found out and Canaris got hanged. As to mock the allies, it was done close to the allied lines.
Canaris found out what the SS were doing in Poland already in 1939. Outraged he went to Hitler. He got stopped by Keitel who assured him that it was happening by the command of the fuhrer, and he'd better not talk to him.
Well the Allies put Keitel on the rope later on....
-
Originally posted by Angus
That's what you say......
Having the spine to do it is another thing.
Not having the spine to do it would be the disgrace. I can guarntee you I would not fight to support such an endeavor . I would fight against it. When you figure in the fact of the contacts and influence he had, you can only come to one conclusion. Support. I would not wish myself or my family, friends, countrymen to live under the tyranny of such a madman. There are a lot worse fates than death. Thank God there were those that felt the same way. If not, the world would be a sad place to reside.
Many a German was executed for working against the system, and their attempts were futile.
Futile? I think not.
And many guerilla/resistance fighter died fighting against it. On the other hand , many guerilla operations aided in the downfall of the madman.
-
Yes they were futile for Hitler resided in power almost to the bitter end.
-
Originally posted by Westy
Ditto.
I have zip respect and absolutely no admiration whatsoever for anyone who fought for the Nazis and the Fascist. By thier willing participation they aided the Nazis dark, murderous aims and supported the Axis goals of conquest and subjugation.
I have some modicrum of respect for Rommel because at least he died while actively trying to eliminate the cancerous evil that was leading his country to kill millions and ruin most of Europe.
My thoughts exactly
about the confederate army
-
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the detonation of two atomic bombs over two civillian targets is IMO, a serious war crime.
And what about thousands of bombers dropping conventinal and fire bombs on similar cities like was done for several years prior to the atomic bombs on pretty much a daily basis?
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
what does knowing about the camps have to do with anything?
What was he supposed to do? Protest against them and get him and/or his family inturned in one also?
Tell ya what. If given a choice between shooting you or having my family shot.Or inturning you in a camp or having my family inturned
You would loose
I'd be willing ot bet I would suffer the same fate if you were given those choices
So he was human. And a very good pilot. And he stood by and watched murder on a horrendous scale perpetrated by his government.
Your point is silly. You think he deserves honor because he was a good pilot?
Or because he took the safest road during a time of great evil?
hehe.
-
Originally posted by Angus
Yes they were futile for Hitler resided in power almost to the bitter end.
"The bitter end" should give you a hint.
A fight for a just cause is never futile.