Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Jester on April 21, 2006, 08:43:21 PM
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I have a couple of questions for you Spifire/Seafire experts out there..........
1. What Spitfire Model that we have here in AH comes closest to the LH Mk. III SEAFIRE.
2. I've seen notes of the Seafire III, Seafire IIIc & Seafire LF III - what is the difference?
Tks in advance.
! :aok
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1) We don't really have one now. The 'old' Spit V would be the closest.
New Spit V is nowhere near being a suitable candidate. Inferior weapons loadout, inferior motor.
2) All Seafire III's were L III's with Merlin 55M. (barring the initial small batch of F III's which were superceded very quickly, and a few FR III's.)
I have had a problem with the IIc since the remodel -
1) The IIc was amongst the lowest number produced of any Seafire.
2) With the Merlin 46 it's the rarest Seafire IIc made.
Only the first 100 or so IIc's had the Merlin 46, all the rest were given the improved Merlin 32. Then later the first 100 or so were retro-fitted with the Merlin 32.
So in effect all IIc's used the Merlin 32.
The ONLY scenarios run so far directly involving the Seafire would have been the L III model not the IIc.
Good idea would be to bring back the 'old' Spit V with the Merlin 55M, making it an LF Vc. (can even clip it)
It would also be a perfect sub for the LIII which also had the Merlin 55M. (Seafire L III's flew clipped so no prob).
Or vice-versa, a Seafire L III can sub for a LF Vc.
Added bouns - up to mid 43 the LF V was still the majority (numbers wise) Spit flown by the RAF, not the F IX or LF IX.
Clipped LIII
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alemarinel/Spitfire/Seafire3.jpg)
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Thanks for the info Kev. (Also the pic for the collection!)
! :aok
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YW.
Little bit more -
Seafires seen action during both the Iwo Jima and Okinawa campaigns, and ended up providing air cover from Kamikaze attacks for the British Pacific Fleet during the final operations against the Japanese mainland.
Apart from a brief stint in Malta by a single squadron, and another used during D-Day, the overwhelming majority of action for the LIII was in the Pacific.
By the end of the war there were -
4 x Seafire IIc squadrons.
8 x Seafire L III squadrons.
IIc -
372 built - 110 Westlands, 262 Supermarine.
110 built by Westalnds orignally fitted Merlin 46, refitted with Merlin 32 (approx mid 43).
262 built by Supermarine all had Merlin 32.
When fitted with the Merlin 32 known as L IIc.
First service Mid 1942.
L III
1263 built - 913 by Westlands, 350 by Cunliffe Owen
About 30 initially had fixed wings, known as IIc hybrid.
First service Nov 1943.
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The Seafire II is roughly a "Navalized" Spitfire Vb correct?
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Basically - same motor but the Seafire IIc has the extra 60 rounds per cannon over the Vb. Plus extra weight from the hook and strengthening.
Thats why it can't be a satifactory sub for an L III, the later Seafire had a low alt superior Merlin 55M compared to our Merlin 46 in the Vb and IIc.
Old Spit Vc would have been a good sub for the Seafire L III.
The Spitifre Vb we have would be a good standin for a Seafire Ib which were converted RAF Vb's.
To complete the Spit/Seafire lineup all we need is -
LF Vc - Basically old Mk V, but clip it. (can also sub as LIII)
XII - Used to run down the 190's doing low level bombing raids.
A bonus would be the F.21 (perked).
Can't really think of any other version/variant that would be needed.
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Is the difference between the Seafire L Mk. III & LF Mk. III the Clipped Wings on the former?
Also you mentioned the number of squadrons operational with SEAFIRE'S - You didn't mention how many were equiped with the Griffon Engined SEAFIRE XV. Do you have any specs or numbers on this aircraft?
SEAFIRE XV - 801 SQUADRON - HMS IMPLACABLE - BRITISH PACIFIC FLEET
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5141/seafirexv801sqdnimplacable2wr.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
I read somewhere that there were a couple SEAFIRE XV Squadrons getting ready to ship out with the British Pacific Fleet when the war ended. This aircarft might end up the same way as the USN's F8F BEARCAT.
!
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LF III - L III = Same aircraft, just the different way the Fleet Air Arm referred to the RAF LF series.
XV - Yup there was a couple squadrons ready, but no Seafire XV's seen combat, 'as far as I know'.
As for numbers etc, will dig them up, it was basically an L III with a Griffon motor.
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Seafire XV -
434 built - Westland (250) and Cunliffe Owen (184)
1750HP Griffon VI
Seafire L III wings.
Rear fuselage from the Spit VIII.
Fwd fuselage from the XII
First unit got them May 1945 - 802 sqn
I believe the 4 sqns with Seafire IIc's at the end of the war were converting to XV's.
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There is a good book by a RN seafire pilot, They Gave Me a Seafire, who was in combat in the last stages of the war on Japan. A lot of info about the mid & later stages of Seafire development in that book...
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Originally posted by Debonair
There is a good book by a RN seafire pilot, They Gave Me a Seafire, who was in combat in the last stages of the war on Japan. A lot of info about the mid & later stages of Seafire development in that book...
Tks Debonair, I have seen this book advertised - I will see if I can track it down.
Tks also Kev for the specs and info on the Seafire.
! :aok
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Originally posted by Jester
Thanks for the info Kev. (Also the pic for the collection!)
! :aok
Found you a real sweet pic -
Seafire L III's onboard HMS Hunter, note they are all clipped.
(http://www.martinphotos.i12.com/seafire11.jpg)
Quite a few more here
http://www.ivyandmartin.demon.co.uk/seafire.htm
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So much for the theory that no Seafires were clipped, lol.
(Was on these boards long ago)
Anyway:
"There is a good book by a RN seafire pilot, They Gave Me a Seafire, who was in combat in the last stages of the war on Japan. A lot of info about the mid & later stages of Seafire development in that book..."
I'll buy it !!!! Saw it in the shelves of Foyle's I think and skipped it for something else, awww.
http://www.foyles.com
Lots of books.
Particularly interesting that there were also RN aircraft at Iwo and Okinawa. Never heard that before.
Kev, do you have any data on claims and such?
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Here:
(http://213.253.134.29/jackets/l/184/1840372451.jpg)
Hope it works.
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theres a lot of other good books in that airlife classics series, one by an RAF nightfighter R/O, another by a typhoon driver & a good one by an RAF PRU Hurricane S/L in North Africa called Messerschmit Roulette
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Jeff Quill also covers the introduction and first use of the Seafires.
Proved tough on the little escort carriers.
I've also got some nice episode from Johnny Johnsson about Spit Vc's flying to Malta.
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Originally posted by Angus
So much for the theory that no Seafires were clipped, lol.
(Was on these boards long ago)
Anyway:
"There is a good book by a RN seafire pilot, They Gave Me a Seafire, who was in combat in the last stages of the war on Japan. A lot of info about the mid & later stages of Seafire development in that book..."
I'll buy it !!!! Saw it in the shelves of Foyle's I think and skipped it for something else, awww.
http://www.foyles.com
Lots of books.
Particularly interesting that there were also RN aircraft at Iwo and Okinawa. Never heard that before.
Kev, do you have any data on claims and such?
If I remember correctly, the discussion was over an RAE report that tested clipped wing Vb's, and said it was not recommended. One of the reasons being would hamper carrier operations.
I pointed out that Seafire LIII's had a much more powerful Merlin 55M and although report may have been accurate when produced it didn't mean there was no benefit to clipping later variants/marks.
As for British Pacific Fleet - It did indeed take part in the Okinawa campaign as part of Task Force 57, Seafires primarily being used for fleet defence.
They also participated in the some of the final operations against the Japanese mainland.
By the end of the war there were 12 Seafire sqns, 8 of which were L III's, the remaining four L IIc's with the Merlin 32.
Found four Seafire sqns (up to now, and all LIII's) that were part of the BPF - 801, 880, 887, 894
Sidenote - Interesting PDF here -
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/LondonGazette/38308.pdf
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Good information guys!
I never really realized how much they were used in the pacific. Is there any information on how many were used in the Med and in the Atlantic?
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Intersting indeed. How many victories did the Seafires rack up?
-C+
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The last dogfight of WWII was between Seafire L.IIIs and A6M5 Zeros.
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Did find this for two Seafire sqns during their attachment to the BPF -
887 sqn - 12 kills
894 sqn - 10 kills
Best day 15 Aug 1945 - 801 sdn and 880 sdn : 8 kills with no losses (the last WWII dogfight).
Yup Karnak - In fact some time ago it was a scenario we did, only one of two scenrios involving Seafires and both would have been the LIII.
One of the reasons I'd like to see one in AH2, plus it can double for a late 42 Vc.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The last dogfight of WWII was between Seafire L.IIIs and A6M5 Zeros.
where? that might be an interesting set up to run in the AvA.
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Originally posted by storch
where? that might be an interesting set up to run in the AvA.
Off the coast of Japan. I don't know off hand more than that. I would need to look it up, although Kev might know it.
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Will dig some more info out on it -
Briefly - It was part of a what was to be a series of strikes against targets near Tokyo the morning of Aug 15 1945.
Seafires of 801 and 880 sqn were escorting Avengers.
To increase range they were carrying modified U.S. droptanks. (approx 50% increase in range)
The second flight was recalled after cessation of hostilites.
May have flown off HMS Indefatigable (try saying that after a few beers).
Unfortunately Storch the IIc is a really poor and not acceptable stand-in for L III.
Especially as our IIc is the uncommon early Merlin 46 one.
The Seafire LIII would have the same performance as our 'old' Spit Vc.
Whereas our current Seafire has the performance of the current Vb.
Basically the current Seafire is an F model the Seafire III was an L (LF) model.
[Edit] More info - A complete explanation is in June 2001 Aeroplane Monthly pages 51-55.
Extract - (happened over Tokyo Bay)
On 15th August, 1945, 3 Seafire IIIs of 887 Squadron, flying from HMS Indefatigable, were providing top cover for Avengers and Fireflies flying at 1000ft, and set on making attacks in the Tokyo area.
Four Seafires from 894 Squadron, flying 1000ft above the attack aircraft, provided close escort, and the three Seafires from 887 Squadron gave top cover 3000ft above the close support Seafires.
A dozen A6M5c Zeroes from the 302nd Kokutai, based at Atsugi, attacked, and, in the ensuing battle, which took place over Tokyo Bay, the leader of the top cover trio, Sub Lt Victor Lowden, hit five, destroying two, and was credited with a third, shared with Sub Lt W J Williams.
The third Seafire F III pilot, Sub Lt Gerry Murphy, shot down two Zeroes in turning combat, which, to quote David Brown's fine book, 'The Seafire', "should have favoured the enemy", but "ended with them both being shot down by some fine deflection shooting."
The Royal Navy / FAA contribution to the Far East war goes largely unrecognised. The "Pacific War" became totally associated with the U.S. only.
Yet in July and Aug 1945 British Carriers were responsible for one quarter of all enemy shipping sunk, some 356000+ tons .
Definately the forgotton contribution.
Thinking about it - They were used
Europe
Meditteranean
N. Africa
Far East
Pacific
Atlantic
Possibly one of the few aircraft that saw service in just about ALL theatres.
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from the book by the BPF seafire pilot, i forget the exact details, but they had some sort of G-suits so maybe turning combat, depending on how many Gs they were turning at, was in their favor...
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"Unfortunately Storch the IIc is a really poor and not acceptable stand-in for L III. "
IMO it is an adequate stand in against A6M5. It would make a nice Snapshot.
-C+
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ya I'm lamenting the lack and overall poor quality of spits in this game. shame really when you consider that it should still be a frontline fighter. :D
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Look at the engagement -
Seafires close support @ 2000ft
Seafires for cap @ 5000ft
Now look corresponding speeds F IIc, L III
IIc - Wont even get close to 327mph until 17,000ft.
LIII - 2k : 275kts ( 316mph ) at 5k : 285kts ( 327mph )
Now if as I had requested the IIc had been given the Merlin 32, which they ALL ended up with, and still think it should get Merlin 32. To base the Seafire IIc on the initial 100 or so (which got the 32 eventually) out of over 400 produced. -
L IIc - 2k 324mph, 5k 339mph.
Either way you look at it performance wise the F IIc with Merlin 46 (ours) is nowhere near a good sub, apart from the fact it has a hook.
So if you mean it's a Seafire and has a hook therefore its a good sub for an L III, your badly mistaken. For the exact reverse reason people wouldn't have the late 42 Vc (old spit V) doubling for an early Vc.
Note - figures may be off +- 5mph either way due to the graph being hard to read.
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Our Seafire Mk IIc is fine for a scenario against the A6M5b.
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I will say this. if you take the example of the 110C-4b with the DB601N engine of which only a handful were made, that being the apex of the early war 110 developements then you could argue why not apply that across the board for all combatants. that is to say why not showcase the very best of them all? i'm ignorant of the amount of work that it takes to model a fighter for this game but why not just model the complete line up from 1939-1945. The spit, 109, 190 Hurri, A6M, F4F, F4U, F6F, TBM, SB2C, P38, P40, P47and P51 that is every model ever fielded? would it really be that difficult? Imagine the A36 Apache and the 4 hispano allison engined MustangI?
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Originally posted by Karnak
Our Seafire Mk IIc is fine for a scenario against the A6M5b.
Not saying it isn't in the right context.
But even the 4 sqns of Seafire IIc at the end of the was had already been refitted with the Merlin 32. It was realsied very quickly the Merlin 46 just wasn't good enough.
For any Far East / Pacific scenario it just isn't a good sub for an L III, or Seafire L IIc.
Just because it's a Seafire doesn't cut it.
Storch - No-one is asking for the ENTIRE versions of any models. I was all in favor of derating the old spit V, but I think a lot of us have realised it has left a huge gap.
It was a perfect sub for the L III, plus it was the main Spit through mid 1943, until the F IX arrived in sufficient numbers.
The L III was actually the largest produced Seafire (3x as many as the IIc), so handfulls doesn't even come into it.
If anything it's reversed - we have the rarest Seafire made with the rarest (initial) motor.
Put it this way -
Current Seafire as modelled approx 110 or so made.
Seafire L III - 1400 made.
Funny thing is if it was a Spit XII (100 made) you'd all be whining for it it to be perked. It is just because it the crappiest Seafire there isn't any whines?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
It is just because it the crappiest Seafire there isn't any whines?
BINGO
Bronk
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I think Kev has this pretty well spot on. And here the rarity occurs, the largest production model of an aircraft performs better than the rarity offered ;)
BTW, with some little difference in speed, I bet that the ROC will have more difference. Hence acceleration, and even turn performance.
And Karnak: What fight was this you mentioned??? And where????
Burmese border or Japanese mainland or what???
There is quite little around about the RN in the Pacific.-
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Angus,
Japanese mainlain, as Kev noted futher. It was a Seafire escort of some strike aircraft on the Tokyo area are the end of the war. I suspect the target was a bit south of Tokyo and on the coast.
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Angus -
Look few post up, I have posted a short description of what happened.
It was the last dogfight of WW2.
Re: Seafire III - Difference in speed is a lot more than a few mph, as I said earlier, the Seafire IIc can't even get close to the L III's speed low down.
An LIII 6-10k can hit 300+mph
An FIIc doesn't get close to 300mph until 22k+
So how you can call an F IIc a good sub for an L III is beyond me, its the equivalent of saying the F Vb is a good sub for an LF IX.
Hell even the F IX isn't a good sub for the LF IX.