Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: scottydawg on April 24, 2006, 11:54:07 AM
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I'm curious about the flight model, in particular the 'elevator bounce' and 'rudder wibble' (my words) I get when I fly.
For example if I move the elevators and release to center, I get what I can only describe as a rubber-band like bounce, as if the plane was held in place by rubber bands. is this realistic?
Give it a try in the MA, line your sight up with something and pull rudder and release to center. It's bizarre. Do planes really do that?
:D
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hit ctrl x (turns off auto trim) then see what they do .
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Originally posted by scottydawg
I'm curious about the flight model, in particular the 'elevator bounce' and 'rudder wibble' (my words) I get when I fly.
For example if I move the elevators and release to center, I get what I can only describe as a rubber-band like bounce, as if the plane was held in place by rubber bands. is this realistic?
Give it a try in the MA, line your sight up with something and pull rudder and release to center. It's bizarre. Do planes really do that?
:D
Sounds like your jstick is producing some nose bounce. ack ack posted a link back here some time ago for a stick scale profile with minimal nose bounce. If you can't find it, PM me with your e-mail address.
What stick are you using?
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I'm using a MS Sidewinder Pro Force Feedback on a game port.
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Doht! Excuse my lack of SA for not having picked that up in your sig.
Geez, that's an old stick. You may have worn out pots. If your calibrating in Windows and AH and the axis lines are all smooth and lined up right in the joystick setup window you might try this: grab a plane offline and sit on the runway. Using your external views, move your ailerons, elevators and rudders around with your stick to see if they're smooth, and move accordingly with your joystick.
Ackack's stick profile can be found via this link:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=162256&highlight=ackack+stick+profile
place the stick.cfg file in your AH2 SETTINGS folder
If you're still having problems, it might be time for a new stick. Best Buy sells Saitek EVO's for $35
Good luck!
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Thanks, Max.
I took it apart last week to see, it's all optical. However, it is a bit twitchy, probably because the gameport/soundcard PCI bus is running faster than the stick was designed for. Other than that it's a decent stick... I've done the calibration and made the moves and there's no bounceback.
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Are you speaking of the sudden yaw snap when you center your rudder suddenly?
If so, I have a similar effect myself, Of course I am using a Logictech Attack 3 for a stick. I dont have a Twist on my stick so I programed three of my buttons to act as my Rudder controls (Left, Right, and Center) And when ever I use my rudder and then Center it. It snaps my plane in a hard Snap, much like your Rubber Band comparison...
If that is the Case, Then I personally believe it would be something quite similar to a real aircraft. Of course... I have no personal experience in this my self, and I could be completely Wrong.
Stryker
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Originally posted by Strykar1
Are you speaking of the sudden yaw snap when you center your rudder suddenly?
If so, I have a similar effect myself, Of course I am using a Logictech Attack 3 for a stick. I dont have a Twist on my stick so I programed three of my buttons to act as my Rudder controls (Left, Right, and Center) And when ever I use my rudder and then Center it. It snaps my plane in a hard Snap, much like your Rubber Band comparison...
If that is the Case, Then I personally believe it would be something quite similar to a real aircraft. Of course... I have no personal experience in this my self, and I could be completely Wrong.
Stryker
That's exactly it, a yaw snap where the plane wiggles twice. Same with elevator. Maybe it is realistic, hell I've never flown a real prop fighter so I have no idea.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
I'm curious about the flight model, in particular the 'elevator bounce' and 'rudder wibble' (my words) I get when I fly.
For example if I move the elevators and release to center, I get what I can only describe as a rubber-band like bounce, as if the plane was held in place by rubber bands. is this realistic?
Give it a try in the MA, line your sight up with something and pull rudder and release to center. It's bizarre. Do planes really do that?
:D
Yes, and the correct term for what you describe as elevator bounce is a pitch oscillation. It is a normal characteristic of the control response and flight dynamics of an aircraft. There are other types, but what you are seeing is called a short period pitch oscillation. That type of oscillation is normally damped by the tail plane, and the degree of damping depends on the longitudinal stability, longitudinal dihedral, position of the center of gravity, the movement of the center of pressure on the main wing and fuselage, and the area, aspect ratio, angle and distance of the tail from the center of gravity. In most aircraft where the controls have low to moderate control power, and are handled gently, pitch oscillations are not significant. However, fighters are intended to respond quickly to their controls, they are generally less stable than other aircraft and their control power is relatively high and they have less pitch damping because that would reduce their transient maneuverability. The situation is further complicated because stability in roll, yaw and pitch all have an affect on each other. In the Aces High flight model that is accurately accounted for and the differential equations that describe the motion in one axis are coupled with those for the other two axis, and they are solved numerically as simultaneous differential equations providing a high degree of fidelity to real aircraft motion. Even so, most real fighters are rarely handled in a way that causes them to behave badly in this respect. Real pilots don’t handle their controls sharply, by snatching the flight control backwards and then releasing them, if they did the pitch oscillations would be apparent, particularly at the lower end of the aircraft’s speed range. Real pilots tend to make control commands that are positive but steady, for flight sim pilots, who don’t suffer the same physical restraints, control movements and responses are inclined to be far more dramatic and for that reason, even though the aerodynamics may be exactly the same, the flight sim pilot may experience control responses, in terms of oscillations, that few real pilots would normally see.
The good news is that because this is a control response, it is something you have the ability to influence with good manual control technique. You simply don’t need to make sudden or sharp control demands. One area where this is particularly important is in the influence this has on gunnery. When you are trying to track a target and hold a guns solution, it is important to make smooth changes of direction so that you can minimize any oscillations that spoil your aim. That’s why it can often be easier to get a kill when the bandit is holding a steady turn, and also why a good guns defense involves sudden and frequent changes of direction. All of that is the same for both real and sim' pilots.
I have found from experience that the design of some flight controls actually exacerbate this affect, particularly when they allow you to generate large control movements in very short times. Other flight sticks ease the problem, and I’m also convinced it is not just the physical design of the stick at play, the electronic characteristics of the stick also has an influence on the control signals received by the game and my own experiments with many different sticks show that this can result in a difference in the stability of the aircraft observed in flight simulations.
Regardless of what stick you use the pitch oscillations can also be damped out to some extent in Aces High by using the control settings. However, too much pitch damping can have a negative affect on your reaction times in combat so it is important to find a stick that enables you to achieve a good degree of stability with as little pitch damping as possible.
Hope that helps…
Badboy
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Very interesting information Badboy. Thank you!
>S< Schatzi
PS: What kind of scares me is that i actually understood the first paragraph without having to read it twice :lol
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Very interesting information Badboy. Thank you!
>S< Schatzi
PS: What kind of scares me is that i actually understood the first paragraph without having to read it twice :lol
Yeah, wow. That was a great post Badboy, thanks very much for that astute explanation. Didn't even make my brain hurt once.
Do you have any recommendations as to good sticks? The wife, bless her heart, has given me the okay to hurt the Amex for a new PC (and stick, I assume!). She has no idea...
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Do you have any recommendations as to good sticks?
Yep, I recommend CH gear. The usb version of the 568 Combatstick provides the best combination of in game stability and precision that I've seen. I use it in combination with their pro throttle.
The only down side is that it's a tad expensive, so if you know anyone with that equipment, it would be a good idea to try it out first.
Badboy
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Originally posted by Badboy
Yep, I recommend CH gear. The usb version of the 568 Combatstick provides the best combination of in game stability and precision that I've seen. I use it in combination with their pro throttle.
The only down side is that it's a tad expensive, so if you know anyone with that equipment, it would be a good idea to try it out first.
I agree, CH Products is the way to go for the finest level of control. I have the FighterStick, Pro Throttle and Pro pedals. Not inexpensive, but very nice hardware. However, the CH gear is not without some issues.
One unhappiness was with the throttle. It has no tensioning device, which means that by simply resting one's hand on it, you can accidentally pull the engine out of WEP. Inasmuch as I'm a Design Engineer, I designed and built a simple spring detent that works well (but surely voided the warranty) by causing the throttle shaft to snap into the detent during the last 1/8th inch of travel and staying there until about 2 pounds of force is applied rearward. In my opinion, the lack of a tensioner is a design oversight. Every aircraft I've ever been in has a throttle tensioner or lock.
The FighterStick was designed for large hands. It is very awkward to reach the POV hat switch, requiring one to stretch one's thumb. I fixed that too, by machining a hand rest out of black Delrin (a machinable plastic) bar stock. I milled out the center to conform to the profile of the stick, split the piece, drilled tapped and counterbored it for two 6-32 screws. It simply clamps onto the stick. It raises my hand by 3/4 of an inch and provides a confortable rest. No more stretching for switch access.
Considering the initial cash layout, plus the time and effort fixing the deficencies of the stick and throttle, this was a rather costly investment.
There's an upside, and that is absolute precision and far better reliability than other manufacturer's hardware.
I strongly urge anyone considering CH Products gear to try it before you buy it. One exception would be for the Pro pedals. These are perfect right out of the box. You can use the Pro pedals with the X52 or X45 stick and throttle.
My regards,
Widewing
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excelent post badboy, i was going to post the layman's version:
basically when youre pulling hard back on the stick the plane is not flying 'straight' through the air, more it is at a high angle of attack and pushing forwards from the belly and leading edge of the wing. When you then rapidly return the elevators to neutral the plane jerks back into a zero angle of attack forward motion, creating the bounce.
this is a very realistic flight characteristic, although in most civilian light aircraft you barely notice it, and you controls give you alot more space for smoother inputs, especialy in an aircraft with driect wired control setups suck as most older planes and almost all gliders.
a cheaper or less well made joystick in a simulation will great increase the problem.
I fly with a saitek cyborg setup with a small amount of deadband on each axis, the default sensitivity scale, and absolutely no damper anywhere.
on a cheap stick in particular over-dampening can make even basic flight a challenge
another get around for cheaper stick users is to manualy return the stick to neutral instead of letting it spring back. you would do this without thinking it using a real stick or yoke, you would very rarely let the controls pull themself back to neutral, certainly not infront of an instructor.
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Originally posted by Widewing
...snip...
The FighterStick was designed for large hands. It is very awkward to reach the POV hat switch, requiring one to stretch one's thumb. I fixed that too, by machining a hand rest out of black Delrin (a machinable plastic) bar stock. I milled out the center to conform to the profile of the stick, split the piece, drilled tapped and counterbored it for two 6-32 screws. It simply clamps onto the stick. It raises my hand by 3/4 of an inch and provides a confortable rest. No more stretching for switch access.
.....snip.....
I strongly urge anyone considering CH Products gear to try it before you buy it. One exception would be for the Pro pedals. These are perfect right out of the box. You can use the Pro pedals with the X52 or X45 stick and throttle.
My regards,
Widewing
Widewing,
Thanks for the excellent information. I'm using the Saitek X52, and have absolutlely loved the spring sensitivity, controllability, and responsiveness. I found immeditae improvements in smooth flight control, and especially in fine gunnery. I've also loved the CH pedals, right out of the box.
In fact, if anyone's looking for a good stick/throttle combo but isnt ready for the CH plunge, I highly recommend X52. The only caveat: with extensive AH use (I play about 50hrs per month) I've had Saitek products show some wear after 10-12 months. (experience was with the X45, not sure baout the X52) I very happily bought the BestBuy product warranty, adn traded my X45 in each time a hat stopped responding quickly.....so for my one purchase, I got 2 straight up replacements, and was able to upgrade to the X52 for the 3rd when the X45 left production for only an extra $30. This time, I didnt get the wrranty because I've planned to take the CH plunge for my next stick.
Now for a question I've never asked another man.
What's the distance from your wrist crease to the tip of your middle finger? :lol
I dont have ready access to a Fighterstick to try for comfort, and if my hand's the same size as yours I might have a problem.....
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Simaril 7 " here wrist crease to tip of middle finger. Just for comparison.
With the exception of a couple of the saitek sticks most joysticks are too big for me. And many have MUCH more spring pressure than I'm willing to put up with.
But then I've always been a ms sidewinder fan.
Picked up my latest sidewinder prec pro at secondhand store for 3$.
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*whips out ruler* You want me to measure my what?
Oh, okay. 8 3/4" from wrist to tip of middle finger.
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Link to joystick pic (http://geomatikk.cc/sprocket/index.php?topic=92.0)
This is what I did . I have pretty big hands and that 8 way hat is way to far up to be comphie for me .
Spro
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Originally posted by airspro
that 8 way hat is way to far up to be comphie for me .
Spro
I find the pinkie switch is useless, my hands are normal size and I can't hold the Fighterstick without trippin the pinkie switch, yet the hat switch is a bit high. I use the hat on the stick for "down" views and the hat and the 4-way switch on the throttle for normal views.
I haven't found a use for the mini-stick on the throttle tho :(
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Originally posted by Alky
I find the pinkie switch is useless, my hands are normal size and I can't hold the Fighterstick without trippin the pinkie switch, yet the hat switch is a bit high. I use the hat on the stick for "down" views and the hat and the 4-way switch on the throttle for normal views.
I haven't found a use for the mini-stick on the throttle tho :(
Alky, you are aware there is both a "look up" and "look down" modifyer for your normal hat views, right? I actually use the pinky button on my stick as the "look down" modifyer and the pinky button on the throttle as my "look up" modifyer. My reason for "look down" on the stick, pinky button is I don't use it very much. I always roll wings for a look when in a fight and use lift vector/3-9 line for positioning.
The reason I have "look up" on the throttle is again because I don't want anything interfering with my thumb on the top hat. I've found if you're thumbing views, trying to reach for a button on the same hand can be difficult. By moving it over to the throttle it becomes second nature to use the "look up" modifyer after a couple of hours of flying.
You mentioned above you are using a 4-way hat on the throttle. By doing it you are effectively taking away 4 critical views that you;d be using in a fight. The corners. Using the 8-ay top hat on the stick becomes natural and gives you the corners when assigning a "look up" modifyer to a button. You also go from 10 views to 18 views at the touch of a button. And that is without using the "look down" modifyer button.
Hope this helps.
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I use my pinky switch to toggle view sets. I made 2 stick sets, one with flat views and straight up, one with 45deg up all the way around (works similar to the old AW view toggle). I use the stick hat. 7 1/2" here btw, and it really doesnt bother me at all, but I also play musical instruments so my digets are farily limber.
Oh, and I have the mini-stick set to control pan view mode. (rarely use it except for zooming in to look at distant objects)
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Originally posted by Simaril
What's the distance from your wrist crease to the tip of your middle finger? :lol
I dont have ready access to a Fighterstick to try for comfort, and if my hand's the same size as yours I might have a problem.....
8" from crease to tip, about average I guess. This stick is based upon the F-16's stick, and F-16s don't use the hat switch for views, so it's not an issue.
But, for gaming use, the hat switch is way too high. Unless your name is Shaq.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
You mentioned above you are using a 4-way hat on the throttle. By doing it you are effectively taking away 4 critical views that you;d be using in a fight. The corners.
Hope this helps.
I'm using the main 8-way hat switch on the throttle for the left, right, back and forward up views as well as the corner views. There's a second 4-way switch right next to the hat that I use for up, up back, up left and up right. That leaves me with the stick's hat which I use for the down views and as you say, those views aren't used as much, that's why I put them up on that high stick hat.
Thanx for your help
:aok
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Rgr Alky. I bet there are as many ways to set up a stick as there are people playing the game. :)
A thought which may or may not help you....
I find I need and use every single button on my stick/throttle and am able to fly completely hotas, except for typing messages, when not using vox. Are you doing the same?
The reason I ask is you are using an additional 3 buttons when only one is required for the additional views.
That would free up 3 buttons for other duties.
Rgds
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
The reason I ask is you are using an additional 3 buttons when only one is required for the additional views.
That would free up 3 buttons for other duties.
Rgds
I don't know what you mean by using a button to change the view selection. Also I don't know what to assign that mini-stick to that's on the throttle. Currently I'm using the 4-way switch that's right below the stick hat to "move the seat" left right or up & down. That way I can do a rear view and side shift it to see if anyone is hiding right directly on my six :)
Thanx for the help :)
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Alky, you know you can save head positions with F10? (That way every time you look back, your head is already to the side and up)
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Originally posted by Alky
I don't know what you mean by using a button to change the view selection. Also I don't know what to assign that mini-stick to that's on the throttle. Currently I'm using the 4-way switch that's right below the stick hat to "move the seat" left right or up & down. That way I can do a rear view and side shift it to see if anyone is hiding right directly on my six :)
Thanx for the help :)
Ok, my bad! Sorry Alky.
It's easier for you to do than me to explain....try this;
1) use your hat and look around. you should be able to see all the corners level.
2) while continue'n to look around push and hold your "keypad 5" key. Now all eight views just went up 30 degrees because keypad 5 "modifies" your normal view.
3) release the hat and the view immediately goes to look straight up.
Ok so what happened....
1) you begin with 8 views. the level ones.
2) you press 1 button and now you've just added 8 more views. that's 16 at the press of a button.
3) releasing the hat adds one more view (the straight up view). now you have 17 views.
4) you get one more view because your "push hat forward" view should be exactly the same as not touching the hat. in other words, it's the straight ahead view. you adjust that view so you are either looking over the top of the cowl or around it for high deflection views. that's 18 views!
Ok, there's the views at the touch of a button.
Now it sounds like you have never "adjusted" your views.
AH2 allows you the luxury of being able to move your head around the cockpit to enhance your views. for example, you can set your head position so you "look around" the headrest and can see the tail and planes trying so sneak up on you. To do that you have to create an individual program for each view. We used to call them macros and it's very simple to do. Here's how (and for lack of better wording I'm going to call it "entering the macro mode);
First, you can do the easiest one...we will set the look over the cowl view when you push your hat button forward.
1) hit "F1" to enter the macro mode (begin the programming). Note: you will not see any verbage telling you that you have entered the macro mode.
2) press and hold your view hat in the forward position. Note: DO NOT let go of hat until you complete the macro program.
3) tap your "page up key" on keyboard until your head moves all the way up/
4) hit "F10" to save it. You will get a "head position saved" message.
5) release the hat then check and see if its working.
That's it! You just made your first macro.
The only additional keys you may want to use are your arrow keys. For instance, it you wanted to look back around your seats headrest here's how you'd do it;
1) hit "F1" to enter macro mode
2) hold hat in look back position. remember, don't let go.
3) Tap your "left arrow" key until your head moves all the way to the right as you look back (its opposite when you are looking back but not up and down).
4) tap your "page up" key until your head moves all way up.
5) hit "F10" to save.
6) Check it! Now when you look back you're looking around the right of the seat headrest.
One other thing with setting views. If you fly the Pony (P-51) you may want to adjust the look right and look left views by using the up/down arrow keys to move your head out just enough so you see "outside" the cockpit instead of inside it.
You will find that you want to adjust every possible view you have because there are many things in the cockpit that can impede your views. The P-38 is classic with all its canopy framing. You need to do lotsa tapping. :)
ALternatively we can always meet in the TA and I'll talk you thru a few and then you will have it all under control.
Hope this helps.
Argh! I forgot to mention you need to assign your keypad 5 key to a button. Then you press it as you look around for the additional views. As I had previously mentioned I use the pinky button on the front of my throttle. That way I won't interfere with with using my thumb on the top hat.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Now it sounds like you have never "adjusted" your views.
Oh yes, Shatzi.. Ren... it's one of the first things I discovered :)
Y'all misunderstood when I said "move the seat" because that's what it's called in the game. Consider this, you're in a F4U-D or a P-51D, you can't see someone on your dead six even with the view stretched back as far as it goes. So, you assign the "move seat" option to the controller. Now when you do a normal back view, and hold it while you do a "move seat" to the right or left with the other button, you can see around that headrest or tailfin behind you. Some planes have a more restrictive view than others. The LA-7 has an excellent rear view when you "adjust it" all the way back and down, the F4U blocks a lot of the view.
Thanx guys, I'll check out the view modifier thingy :)
But what to do with that silly mini-stick
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Originally posted by Alky
Oh yes, Shatzi.. Ren... it's one of the first things I discovered :)
Y'all misunderstood when I said "move the seat" because that's what it's called in the game. Consider this, you're in a F4U-D or a P-51D, you can't see someone on your dead six even with the view stretched back as far as it goes. So, you assign the "move seat" option to the controller. Now when you do a normal back view, and hold it while you do a "move seat" to the right or left with the other button, you can see around that headrest or tailfin behind you. Some planes have a more restrictive view than others. The LA-7 has an excellent rear view when you "adjust it" all the way back and down, the F4U blocks a lot of the view.
Thanx guys, I'll check out the view modifier thingy :)
But what to do with that silly mini-stick
Hehe. I wouldn't worry so much about what to do with the mini stick. You'll think of something :)
I sure would like to get a look at your stick setup as I have no real blind spots cept under my belly and if I want to look down I just roll right/left and look right/left. Jusy hoping to be able to help you.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
I sure would like to get a look at your stick setup as I have no real blind spots cept under my belly and if I want to look down I just roll right/left and look right/left.
I'm using AH's stick map and not the CH Manager, I haven't the energy to learn that :(
In the AH stick map under "views" is options to move left, move right etc., with those assigned to a 4-way switch I can look "back" with my hat switch then move right or left to get a better look around my tailfin with the "move" function in case someone is sneaking up behind me while I'm on my way to the next fight.
Thanx again :)
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Rgr, Alky. :)
The in-game stick settings works just fine. The only shortfall is I don't think you can write macros which I do alot in the CH program. AH2 offers the ability to assign just about any button to any function.
One note about views.....there is an old adage in the dogfighting. "Lose Sight, Lose the FIght". If you are not getting instant views to maintain full view of your opponent throughout the whole fight then you need to make some minor adjustments. If you can always see the other guy then you can also see the instant he makes a mistake and capitolize on it.
Rgds,
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I set up the button on the throttle that's closest to your index finger as the view modifier, that works great, thanx, now I can look left with my hat, push the button with my index finger and see left up. I would never have discovered that on my own, Thank you Ren, much appreciated! :)
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That's why we're here. :)
A buddy of mine uses the index finder button on the front of his throttle for the look up modifier. I couldn't even begin to say why I happened to use the pinky button but I've been using it for 10 years or so (since I went from TM to CH gear) so it feels natural for me.
I'm glad our AH2 Trainers are able to help everyone!