Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: scottydawg on April 24, 2006, 04:59:43 PM
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lately it seems I find myself upping at a field with lots of nme about, vulching and generally making life hell for people taking off from the field.
What's the best plane to counter this tactic, something that's got some go off the runway, a good climb rate and good firepower? Don't say spit.
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Best thing would be NOT to up from a vulched field.
But if you really have to, and dont want to use a Spit: grab a La7!
The Lala is simply best at high-speed, low level, close quarter fights. Its very fast and has superior acceleration. Use this to gain speed and some distance immediatly after takeoff, then use the high climb rate to gain a few thousand feet altitude before coming back onto your field to vulch the vulchers. Itīs also not that bad at turning, and has a good roll rate. The 3 20mms are adequate, the ballistics are not that good, but at close quarters they shred the enemy like any other 20mm :)
Other possible planes: Ki-84 (good climb, very maneuverable), Nikki (shoot everyone in the face :D )
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Ki-84 is good in that role. Also the Hurri 2C.
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F6F-5
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Base Defense of a vulched field? DONT UP....But since we all try it at sometime or another....I suggest
Hurricane mkIIC
A6M-5b
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I'm in the La7 camp with this one.
It gets up, gets fast, and gets into the fight quickly.
RTR
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HurricaneMk2C
La7
N1k
Spit9
Ki84 (a plane that takes some getting used to)
a6m (not very durable)
All those can pretty much fight off the runway. Dont forget to reduce your fuel load to 50, maybe even 25 %. Youre not going to be in the air for long anyway. And you probably run out of ammo first.
For taking off on capped base: Sadly i have way too much experience doing that ;). Dont use the runways! Roll through the greenery, if you see someone starting to make a pass at you, turn your nose towards him (if possible). Maybe even pop flaps get wheels in the air early and sideslip (full rudder deflection one way, keep level with aileron - watch for stall at low speed).
Sometimes its better to come from a close neigbouring field with alt to bust the cap and give other friendlies and opening to take off.
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IL-2. I'm serious.
Slow enough to have attacking planes pass you up or slow to the point of stalling. You can actually turn fight it quite well and the cannons on it will take out wings, engines, elevators with ease.
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Hurri2c, roll out of the hangar (NOT the runway), drive like a wildman and HO everyone you see, whether or not your wheels have left the ground yet.
Don't take a La7 or similarly low-ENY bird. They give the most perks, and are thus the most favored targets. Don't ask me how I know that :o
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Originally posted by Vudak
Don't ask me how I know that :o
How come you know that????? :D
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First off I HATE being vulched, and yes every now & then I enjoy a good vulch at the other guys expense. :)
Of all the planes takeing off the ones I worry the most about are the hurri & the nik. Both have to be treated with respect and killed as fast as possible.
La's are slow when they go wheels up and its a perfect time to catch them.
Spits, just lack the firepower to be truly dangerous.
iL2 is good, but its so DARN slow. Course when your doing turns around the radar tower that really doesn't matter.
Personally if I must up a bomber I'll jump into a A20, dump the ord on runway & go HO anything that I can.
Last scotty if you consistantly find yourself upping from capped fields you need to ask yourself why?
One of the hardest things to learn in AH is how to find the fight that favors your style of flying. While defense is one of these, getting vulched is not a great plan. Much better to take off from 1 field back, and go vulch the vulchers.
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YAK!: for me.
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If I'm going to up at a capped base, I'll use the 7. Here's a little personal tip though, that I've never shared before.
Use Auto take off, throttle to full and add WEP. As soon as your tail wheel leaves the ground press X to disengage auto take off, then press X again to engage Auto Pilot. The 7 is slow in the air at the start and this will give the appearence you are for all intents and purposes still taking off. Bring your wheels up and continually check your high views.
As soon as you see a vulcher move into solution and is close enough to use that solution, bank in his direction and climb away (if he's directly on your 6 or 12 bank in whichever direction you feel most comfortable with). More often that not I have found this sudden-seeming climbing and turning ability causes an auger from the predator who is so intent on vulching you, he forgets just exactly where he is in the sky and what his nose is pointed at.
Once you're relatively clear, get out of there and grab some E before you come screaming back in to clear the skies.
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Tinman, that sounds like one sweet trick. I gotta try this :).
Once you're relatively clear, get out of there and grab some E before you come screaming back in to clear the skies.
Very important thing to do. Those extra 30 secs getting some alt/E might make the difference between 0 and 5 dead vulchers.
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Originally posted by RTSigma
IL-2. I'm serious.
Slow enough to have attacking planes pass you up or slow to the point of stalling. You can actually turn fight it quite well and the cannons on it will take out wings, engines, elevators with ease.
the only antivulch ride in my book
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Il-2 is a good pick... it can take a great deal of damage, and it handles very well slow.
Plus it can hang on the prop, which is nice if there is only one guy attacking you. You can get down to ~100 mph, just take a hit, then climb up and spray while you hang on the prop when the guy overshoots and tries to climb away. It only takes 1 hit from the 23mm to take off a wing or a tail.
Other than that, anything that accelerates well is a good pick. El gay if you plan on "extending" before you come back (basically vulching the vulchers), Ki-84/Spit 16 if you are going to try to fight.
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I take it htc fixed the "Glass tail" on the il2?
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Up a Zeke ... very short take off and as soon as it gets up ... its very dangerous ... plenty of cannon and tons of slow speed manuvering to dodge the vulch attempts until you get up to speed.
Phear the Zeke !!!
I like the Hurri IIC too ... nothing better than getting wheels up and HO the first bastage ya see ... send him home and re-launch if necessary.
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Originally posted by Geeb 2
I take it htc fixed the "Glass tail" on the il2?
I dunno to be honest, but I got shot down the other day by Ghi after I dropped about 30 20mm shells into him from an A8. He did the "hang on prop and spray" routine, took off a wing and the tail with a couple hits.
I usually won't do the hang on prop and spray when I'm in an IL-2, mostly because I always get cherry'd when I try it.
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The honest reply is don't up from a vulched field. Up from another field, in the plane of your choice, fly to the field the vulchers are upping from and vulch them.
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I think it's fun sometimes. I wasn't complaining in my original post, just looking for pointers.
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Don't listen to all these wussies saying not to up from a vulched field. IL2 is great, hurr IIc, Spit 16 - LA7 if you can get it up to speed.
The best feeling is killing vulch dweebs, 9 out of 10 times they can't fight anyway. Thats why they are vulching!:aok
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Well, from a gameplay point of view upping at a capped base isnt smart.
I still do it quite often. Killing just ONE of them, or even better, watch them auger greedily trying to get a kill is worth 10 deaths sometimes :).
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I'm just here to have a good time.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
I think it's fun sometimes. I wasn't complaining in my original post, just looking for pointers.
I know you're not complaining . There are two sides to the fun :). If we are overhead a field, with a mind to capture it, and someone tries to up from it then plan on dyin alot because the object of those overhead is to take the field with the least amount of damage to it. Don't get me wrong. You will see some groups come to a field and completely egg everything they can but most base captures are completed without doing too much damage to the field.
Anyone who tells you there is a lot of satisfaction after die'n 10x and get one kill is merely saying it because they got so frustrated from getting killed so many times trying to take off from a capped field. It reminds me sort of the game Laura Croft "Tomb Raider". You'd die, reup, die, reup, die, reup and each time you upped you'd find out a little bit more about how to procede. That works fine with a computer AI. But, I'm pretty sure "cheats" were invented because folks just got tired of dyin so much. AH2 changes that perception of gaming because there are no cheats and that plane overhead may or may not do what you expect because there's a real person behind those sights up there.
Also, you don't have to die to have fun, honest. You can live and have more fun from the accomplishment of flying smart.
Again, if you have lotsa fun trying to up and die alot doing it then rest assured you are also providing others with lotsa fun vulchin you.
If you really like the challenge up from an upcapped field and go to their field and take them on. You start the fight how you want to and enjoy taking it to them where they live.
Hope this helps.
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I like to play "cheat death" on vulched fields.
Spawn on the runway, wait for them to strife you and time your ".ef" command just so you hear the hits on the plane as you are safly back in the tower. Waste their ammo and rob them of the kill.
For some reason I find this amusing.
Bozon
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Anyone who tells you there is a lot of satisfaction after die'n 10x and get one kill is merely saying it because they got so frustrated from getting killed so many times trying to take off from a capped field.
Well, im glad at least YOU know how i feel Ren.
You do not have to stay alive to have fun either......
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My secret weapon in that situation isnt even a plane. I just get in my m16. Get it goin and just start shootin. I love seein them com straight at me and just put a whole mess of shells into there cockpit. If there a couple of fighter around u become a hot target but thats wat u want. Theres times where i can clear the field myself, other times i give my guys enuff time to get off the ground and put guns to him. If they didnt kill the fighter hanger chances r they didnt kill the gv hanger. Dont sleep on the m16. I have killed sets of low level bombers. When i base needs to be defended and i dont have the option of another air feild i jump in a m16, its always a good laugh to c a c47 comin in thinkin he safe and then ...... BAM..... u rip his wings off and kill the single troop that was droped before he went down.
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I tried something new today, upped a formation of KI-67's.
If you are lucky enough to get airborne, idiots will forget about the 20mm's in the tailgun and get trashed by it. Once you get alt and speed, do a circle and get a pal to join you.
Best move I did was a P-38 got smart with me, got low to where my guns couldn't get to him and he actually slowed down and planned on pulling up suddenly to get the kill on me. I kick the rudder hard enough to move the plane and formation to depress the rear gun to spray him like a bug killer on ants.
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Ren you make it sound like anyone that plays this game a little differently than you isn't really having fun.
Anyone who tells you there is a lot of satisfaction after die'n 10x and get one kill is merely saying it because they got so frustrated from getting killed so many times trying to take off from a capped field.
Good thing your telling all of us how we feel. You ever hear of a concept called projection? Your projecting your feelings about being vulched onto the rest of us and can't believe anyone would have a different expieriance. I can gaurantee you if I die ten time I could care less, i'm in it for the challenge. I don't findx flying to a base and vulching much of a challenge anymore, but that is just me. :aok
Again, if you have lotsa fun trying to up and die alot doing it then rest assured you are also providing others with lotsa fun vulchin you.
Ahh now you are starting to get it. This game isn't always about having to live or kill someone to enjoy it. For a lot of us it is the challenge to do the things people such as yourself don't think can be fun or happen for that matter. I.E. Furballing in a hog or jug, upping from a capped field. You hit the nail on the head with this one. The reason I don't get upset if I die, is because I keep in mind that my death created some of the fun in this game.
I tried something new today, upped a formation of KI-67's.
Get someone to gun for you too and watch em die. :D
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Originally posted by mars01
Ren you make it sound like anyone that plays this game a little differently than you isn't really having fun.
Nope, but thanks for the input. Please note the responses from Bozon, RTSigma, Schatzi, etc. Some want to up a capped field, others don't. In help and training we merely provide alternatives for all players. Isn't that what you're trying to do? :)
Good thing your telling all of us how we feel. You ever hear of a concept called projection? Your projecting your feelings about being vulched onto the rest of us and can't believe anyone would have a different expieriance. I can gaurantee you if I die ten time I could care less, i'm in it for the challenge. I don't findx flying to a base and vulching much of a challenge anymore, but that is just me. :aok
I'm happy that you enjoy dying for someone elses benefit. Keep up the good work! May you be granted your wish many times so you can bring enjoyment to all who play the game. In fact, you should post on the general boards that you wish to be a target for all. I'm sure many will jump at the suggestion. :D
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I'm happy that you enjoy dying for someone elses benefit. Keep up the good work! May you be granted your wish many times so you can bring enjoyment to all who play the game. In fact, you should post on the general boards that you wish to be a target for all. I'm sure many will jump at the suggestion.
I have before in conversations in the General forum. This is not the first time I have said it.
BTW I am not doing it for their benefit as much as it is a side affect of me doing things that are fun, agressive and a challenge even tho I am not guaranteed that I live.
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Originally posted by mars01
I have before in conversations in the General forum. This is not the first time I have said it.
BTW I am not doing it for their benefit as much as it is a side affect of me doing things that are fun, agressive and a challenge even tho I am not guaranteed that I live.
Well, I happen to think it's commendable that your way of gameplay allows so many the opportunity to have lots fun by vulching you and therefor are able to enjoy their own play. WTG! And you say you don't do it for their benefit. Hah!
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Kill Em All i SAY!!!!!!!!!!!:aok
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I'm in the "who gives a %$#@ if the field is cap'd" crowd. The only reason I can see for NOT upping is that you might get killed and your k-to-d ratio and score might suffer. Who cares about that?
Somebody up the list said it was about the "challenge" and getting up and dealing some deth over a cap'd field is most certainly a challenge. Plus it just pisses me off to see a bunch of nme planes all over one of our fields while a bunch of a people sit and watch out the tower windows.
My favorite ride for those short, defensive hops is an N1K. Good slow-speeding handling to avoid the vulchers and quad-20mm sweetness for the quick kills.
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one would "THINK"!!! this being the Help & Training Forum, one would not say or teach it is good or ok to up from capped fields, this being the Help & training forum, where people come to get help and or training and or advice, we should not teach or agree or say it is ok or good to up from capped fields.....
with that being said, rule of thumb has always been vulch me once shame on you, vluch me twice shame on me, for being to dumb and stupid, to open the freaking map or look out the tower window to see that the field is capped......for not waiting til the enemy icon over the field has extended far enough out of range to allow one ample time to get up and airborne to be able to avoid any returning slashing or vulch attacks......
We all are free to express our opinions, but if you want to have the "who gives a %$#@ if the field is cap'd" atitude
then keep it in the other forums, and don't bleed your bad tactics to all in the Help & training forum, that is not the help or opinions people need to read here....
as for me , I do not care what any of you or anyone else does or plays like, but from a Teach/Training/Help aspect of this, I say it is nothing but ill advice to teach new comers or even people who have been here for a lil while and are just finding the boards.......I hope each of you can visualize where I am coming from regarding this.......
When we train / teach we try to do it in a way of teaching survival, not tomb raider 1st person shooter type style where death means nothing....... that mindset is why the game is the way it is now, and it also is the reason alot of older longtime players are quiting, they hate the "quake" mentality of what use to be "Extreme Fun" learning the art of flying in a Dog Fight...........in a world War 2 prop plane, regardless if it is a cartoon plane game or not, the new breed is killing the forefather's idea of how this game should be played......99% of them do not even know who the forefather actually is, btw......
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cant aruge with that..
I noe how those vulch dweebs r(not the time to time vulcher, the guy that cant fight and only bads kills by vulchin) they c guys on the runway and get an erection. Vulchin is needed to cap fields but those 2 or 3 guys that keep appearin on the field should noe that there just padin someone elses score. The should noe to up from somewhere else or to not even bother. In that situation i go for the m16 but if i can get that i up form somewhere else. There times where on the way over i catch that c47 and give my base more time to be defended. Its true that anything after the first vulch is really ur fault.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
When we train / teach we try to do it in a way of teaching survival, not tomb raider 1st person shooter type style where death means nothing....... that mindset is why the game is the way it is now, and it also is the reason alot of older longtime players are quiting, they hate the "quake" mentality of what use to be "Extreme Fun" learning the art of flying in a Dog Fight...........in a world War 2 prop plane, regardless if it is a cartoon plane game or not, the new breed is killing the forefather's idea of how this game should be played......99% of them do not even know who the forefather actually is, btw......
Hmmm.
Sorry, but I disagree. In my view, the lamest players of the game have always been those who are too afraid to die, and hence never learn anything. If you "teach survival," then you're teaching caution, run when you're outnumbered, never attack from a position of disadvantage, fly an uber plane if possible, travel in a pack. That's fine if you enjoy it, it's probably the most historically accurate manner of playing the game, but many of us find it to be intolerably boring. Worse, it doesn't encourage experimentation, which I think is at the heart of learning most new skills.
So I'm all in favor of trying to up from a capped field. Occasionally you can kill some of those vulching weenies, and that's very satisfying. For old players as well as for new players.
- oldman
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Well TC, I'm not gonna agree or disagree with ya, but as for why this post is in here, it's because the original poster wanted to know how to best survive upping from a capped field, and asked for help.
Why this thread has turned into an argument/debate, I dunno. Seems like a pretty simple Q & A to me, with a possible disclaimer thrown in there that it'll be frustrating.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Well TC, I'm not gonna agree or disagree with ya, but as for why this post is in here, it's because the original poster wanted to know how to best survive upping from a capped field, and asked for help.
Why this thread has turned into an argument/debate, I dunno. Seems like a pretty simple Q & A to me, with a possible disclaimer thrown in there that it'll be frustrating.
Yes Sir Vudak, the Thread poster asked a valid question, and yes it somehow appears it has sort of went to an argument /debate, that truly is sad.......I was not trying to carry it away from the original posters question either.....
I should give my response on the original posters question .........if you feel the need to up from a capped field I say go with the Niki ( for its cannons ) or the IL2, strange plane but from my experience it offers a valid threat to vulchers......
3rd choice would be an Fm2 or a F6f then even the Hurri2c.....
If one was smart, they would grab a plane and up from the closest nearest field that opposed no taking off threat, grab some E, and come in and clean out the vulchers........the vulchers /cappers will be to focused on the next unknowing noob to up on the runway they prob never check the radar or visual scan like one should when capping, they want to be the 1st to see, so they can be 1st to the vulch.......
now back to the previous post I made, oldman, I never teach timid flying, horde flying, but cautious flying yes, fight your fight not your opponets.....
there is more to cautious flying than how you so elegantly put it oldman, but I am not posting to argue with anyone...........
1st thing anyone should think about when getting ready to fly is that thing called SA, if the field is capped look out the tower, wait til the idjiot vulching is extendeding away or leaving before you up, he will prob be checking his six, when he sees you he will prob rev back to you for another greedy vulch, just give yourself ample time to get wheels up and a tidbit of speed so you can maneuver him into an overshoot on his 1st pass at least.......nothing a bout being afraid to die, nothing about being lame, nothing about not being able to ever learn anything or attack from a disadvantage.........alot of people ask how to defend/fight when at a disadvantage........and we do teach that........
still feel the same about my 1st post to this thread though........
~S~
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TC..with all due respect, I offered an opinion AND answered the original question.
I think your diatribe is a little off. I've upped from a cap'd field and downed 3 or 4 wannabe vulch-masters before someone finally put me down. I'll take those odds any day.
Call it "bad tactics" if you will...also an opinion. I don't recall claiming to be the master tactician. But I'm not a tomb raider player either (I've been on the AW-AH roster since '94) and I don't think upping from a cap'd field is the sine qua non of lameness or idiocy.
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Originally posted by RTSigma
IL-2. I'm serious.
Slow enough to have attacking planes pass you up or slow to the point of stalling. You can actually turn fight it quite well and the cannons on it will take out wings, engines, elevators with ease.
yea il2 or la7
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To put a perspective on TC's comments...
There is a construction phrase to describe a co-worker who will quietly allow someone to make mistakes or do things the hard way. "That guy would watch you pound a nail in head first and not say a word." Continuing on that line...TC answered with his thoughts on "how to drive a nail head first", but also suggested turning it around and driving it point first.
To those of you who enjoy going head first, good for you (like to do it myself sometimes). Please keep in mind that a deterent to new players staying with AH is its steep learning curve. Giving advise on how to do things the hard way without also mentioning there is a easier way does not encourage newer players to stick through the frustration to build a skill set.
By the way, I like to take the yak, but that's me. Some of the previously mentioned planes are better suited.
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Well at any rate, I think the original poster got many good responses on how to do what he asked, why he shouldn't be frustrated when he does it, and alternative suggestions to keep him from hurtling his joystick at the screen when frustration does indeed kick in.
I'd say it's time for a group hug :D
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I agree with TequillaChaser. If u read the posts ate SIMHQ Forum, you will see why most people switch to Il2 Series Eventually-the quake mentality makes oldtimers sick and tired of the sim sooner or later, adn they quit.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Please keep in mind that a deterent to new players staying with AH is its steep learning curve. Giving advise on how to do things the hard way without also mentioning there is a easier way does not encourage newer players to stick through the frustration to build a skill set.
People who are genuinely interested in this game will stick with it. We all did, didn't we? The ones who quit because they are frustrated that they can't get kills, or that they are getting killed, are the "Quake mentality" players who aren't going to stay here long anyway.
This is not an easy game to learn. It will never appeal (for very long) to people who aren't willing to put in the time and agony to become proficient at it. I'm a big proponent of vets helping new folks, and I hope I do my own part. But I don't think that new players should be treated like spoiled children who have to be coddled to keep them from running away.
- oldman
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Classifieds: Oldman Beginners Drivers Ed School- Classes meet on the Washington DC beltway at 5 pm. Class vehicles will be manual transmission only. Classes will wrap up downtown at 9 pm with parallel parking an H1 Hummer, and making a 3 point turn with an 18 wheeler.
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Originally posted by SVIGGEN
I agree with TequillaChaser. If u read the posts ate SIMHQ Forum, you will see why most people switch to Il2 Series Eventually-the quake mentality makes oldtimers sick and tired of the sim sooner or later, adn they quit.
We lost one last night. XBullX has decide to call it quits in favor of the new kids. I asked him why and he mentioned the reasons which don't need to be voiced by me.
At some point the trolls and everyone's ideas about how the game should be played "thier" way will push more of the old guard from the game. And these are the bread and butter folks who've always paid their bills on time. I'm not so sure youngin's are in for the long haul.
While the trainers sure do appreciate the help of the community, and I mean that sincerely, it's one thing to help us bring new folks up to speed but something entirely different to come into the training forums an spout out their personal way of doing something. They have lotsa opportunity to take someone aside and tell them how "they do it". The trainers must deal with getting the new folks up to speed quickly by teaching the correct procedures for the game. As they learn, you like all the vets flying, they will learn their own style and way of doing things. We just want to get them up flying and fighting sucessfully so they can have fun like the rest of us do.
Another facet of the game that aids new folks in coming up to arena speed are the AH2 Squadrons. Many are fine groups with vets who are also available to bring new folks along in the game. A big WTG to all the trainers within the squads!
IMHO if you are only here to trash other players please do so outside of the Help and Training Forum and Training Arena.
Thanks
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See Rule #5
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"AirQuake" behavior is not the product of how new guys are taught.
Its the natural consequence of the incentives built into the design of Aces High, compounded slightly by the fast action nature of the last generation or two.
"AirQuakers" (hmmm... does taht mean they're pacifists?) are more often than not capture people, because there are REASONS to haul a trio of lancs against a CV 10x straight, regardless of you r own deaths, when you're trying to save a base. There are REASONS to go on a one way trip into enemy territory when you're killing troops. There arent reasons for a lover of ACM to repeatedly enter a truly hopeless (as opposed to challenging) situation.
The capture game is FAR more sensitive to the design decisions HTC made for the MA, especialy since HT's repeatedly said he's made the flight model his top priority. Even if the trainers spread their message to every player, the MA will not change much -- since even a fighter trained guy will HAVE to behave certain ways if he wants to play the base capture game.
So while I greatly respect the trainers' efforts, and I still actively seek their help, I firmly believe that they cannot reshape the way the MA operates. Trainers help fighter jocks learn their art. They cannot change the way the land gamers play, because that behavior is 100% determined by HTC.
And to be honest, I think the MA's design is better optimized for 300 players than for 600. With that many defenders, the ONLY way to break a stalemate is with the horde.
Period.
SO guess what we see?
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Originally posted by mars01
I can respect what you posted here TC et-al, but the question was dealing with upping from a vulched field. So with that said, coming in here and condeming doing it doesn't seem to benefit the original poster.
rgr Mars, I posted the following, to give my opinion/answer in my second posting, seeing how I overlooked answering the original poster's question in my first post:
Yes Sir Vudak, the Thread poster asked a valid question, .......I was not trying to carry it away from the original posters question either.....
I should give my response on the original posters question .........if you feel the need to up from a capped field I say go with the Niki ( for its cannons ) or the IL2, strange plane but from my experience it offers a valid threat to vulchers......
3rd choice would be an Fm2 or a F6f then even the Hurri2c.....
I proceeded to explain what would also be best to do if you was to be upping from a capped field, and then seconded a few others opinions of even better was to up from the next field over and come in with some E and vulch the vulchers......
Mars, I am a stickler for people being taught "Correct ways / tactics" vs people being taught "incorrect ways / tactics". I have always found it easier to teach people things the right way, then to have to Re-Teach them and make them forget all the bad habits they have picked up along the way.
I can respect everyones opinion, yours, his, hers, him over there, but if I see something I think is not right, then I will call it out, yes he asked about best plane to up from a capped field, yes I said the right thing to do was not up from a capped field, ala vulch me once shame on you, vulch me twice shame on me..... <---that last little phrase was the rule long before I ever got my ears wet flying online well over 10 years ago, and it still applies today......
I found it absurd to see people post saying they would die 10 times for 1 kill of a vulcher ( no offense meant Schatzi, and I am no saint, I have done that before myself long ago, seriously ) but from the Instructor's / Trainers view I
have to call it like I see it, and upping from a capped field is truly a bad tactic.... giving up 4/5/6/even 10 kills for 1 kill of a vulcher is in my eyes bad example to lead by..........fun , maybe, example to lead by not a chance.....
edited: the remark I posted/quoted from one of the thread posters was the reason I even responded to this thread, btw....... "the don't give a ***** atitude" is part of the problem with the ever increasing change we consistantly experience in the MA, along with what Simiral has eluded to in the post above this one.....
not wanting to stir the pot, or argue with anyone,
Mars
( btw I am not getting in a P'ing match with any of you, ya'll can go at each other all you want, but try to do it in another forum please :D )
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Maybe we should all just fly in totally "realistic" ways....like diving our Ki-84s into ships? Or ramming our I-16s into He 111s? Or flying our B-25s off of aircraft carriers? And how about if the engine falls out of our F4U because the engine mounts were over-stressed and the bolts failed? The whole "realism" thing seems little absurb given that there are limitations imposed when playing a simulation (hence the name simulation).
Defining the "right way" and the "wrong way" to fly seems a little absurb given that in order to define those things, you would first have to define what the objective is that you are trying to achieve by playing the game. Some people play the game to have "fun" which means something different than those who play to "survive" which in turn is different than those who play to "score." There are as many reasons to play the game as there are players. Human nature is such that you're never going to get total agreement on what's "right" and what's "wrong."
And I don't think someone who is reading these forums is necessarily going to rush out and do whatever they read on here just because they read it on here. What would happen if we told everyone to drive their car with a blindfold on???
Before SA, there is this thing called "common sense." If you don't have that simple life skill then you more than likely have issues that go beyond the scope of improving your performance on aces high.
The game is what it is. It's got its pros and its cons. People play the way they play. And people come and people go. And people argue about inane issues and turn it into an "us" vs. "them" situation. And those are about the only ways that this simulation is truly "realistic."
Personally, I love this game. And when I find those rare moments when everything comes together it's a great experience that is hard to top.
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Just for the record, TC...that was me you blasted in your first response. I never said I didn't care if I died 10 times, I said I didn't care if the field was cap'd. At least in my mind, there's a difference between those two statements.
Obviously there is this thing called common sense. I mentioned it in my last post. I'm not interested in dying 10 times in a row but I am willing to push a 1 vs many situation if there is a reason to.
You might also notice that I didn't advise anyone else to die 10 times either.
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Originally posted by zelo13
Just for the record, TC...that was me you blasted in your first response. I never said I didn't care if I died 10 times, I said I didn't care if the field was cap'd. At least in my mind, there's a difference between those two statements.
Obviously there is this thing called common sense. I mentioned it in my last post. I'm not interested in dying 10 times in a row but I am willing to push a 1 vs many situation if there is a reason to.
You might also notice that I didn't advise anyone else to die 10 times either.
I did not post your name zelo, because I did not want you to think I was "pointing at you" and I never said that you"advised people to die 10 times"
1 more thing, my apologies if you feel like I was BLASTING you, I was responding to the "comment " only, not to you personally
you supposedly have been around flying for the last 12 years ( circa AW 94 you posted ) well, my apologies for not remembering you,
what people do and fly like is their own thing, I am not telling people how they should play their game, I don't guess I have typed that enough though,
you voiced your opinion, I accepted it, I voiced mine- in which you did not accept it I don't think: I also said it was not a good idea, not to a new player, not for people looking in here for help, to be telling them "well if I get 1 or 2 maybe 4 planes before I eat the farm" or "sometimes 1 kill is worth 10 deaths" that it is ok, yes you got to die to learn sometimes but not at the expense of a dweeb vulching you..........but if people feel the need to do so ( up from a capped field that is ) I posted my thoughts on what plane I would use......
There are all different types of people who read these boards ( yes including the Help & Training Forum) all I respectfully request is to post and reply with what would be the proper technique/tactic /maneuver/game play would be for the subject in question. This would help the Gameplay for everyone by leaps and bounds.......
nothing wrong with telling someone how you sometimes like to do things, even if you know yourself it isn't the right or proper thing to do, but to tell them it doesn't matter, or dieing by being vulched has no effect on game play opens the door to pandora's box and we get what we got.......
Seriously, everyone of us for the most part came from some other flight sim, The Trainers in each sim had a role they filled, but the Veteran players of those Sims filled an even bigger role, you get back what you put out, if not enough people put out the right info, then you get nothing back, you get CHANGE......
no disrespect meant to you zelo, or you Schatzi.........( I know you both was not TELLING people it is ok to die to vulching dweebs, my apology )
The Training & Help Forum is for the whole AH community, but just like any other forum, this one should be moderated as well, personally I think it should be moderated even more so than many of the other forums, for the sole purpose of making gameplay better for all......and when we are Training/Teaching people in the TA, we send them to this forum more than any other AH forum, to search tips and other things, so in a way, I feel the Trainers have a right to "police" this particular forum to make sure "wrong info or tactics" are not plastered everywhere, and don't everyone be going taking that personally or anything, am just talking/expressing my view here.......
and I am definitely against flamewars in the Training and Help Forum, regardless of who the Flamers are Trainer or not....
for the most part though, this Forum along with the Aircraft & vehicles and the Hardware/software forums are the 3 best forums on these boards....( <---again my personal opinion )
~S~ all
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Originally posted by mars01
I can respect what you posted here TC et-al, but the question was dealing with upping from a vulched field. So with that said, coming in here and condeming doing it doesn't seem to benefit the original poster.
IMO - why should this forum be censored? Again this mentality that if you are not an AH trainer then your opinions are not relevant seems to be the biggest negative injection into this thread.
This forum is not some holy ground for trainers only and I think you guys are out of line trying to make it that.
Actually you are merely trying to incite what you couldn't on the general discussion boards from me. Nor will I engage in it here as this is the Help and Training Forum.
WTF are you talking about. The lack of AtoA combat and timid flyers is what is killing the old gaurd. They are not going to IL2 for the "Win The WAR". I think your soap boxing and blaming this and that ON them and those is more of a problem.
The reason XBullX is leaving is not due to a lack of AtoA nor timid flyers. If you need to know his reasons then ask him. Again your last sentence in an attempt to flames no bearing on the subject. But thanks for the try! :)
Just because you don't agree with the way some like to play Ren doesn't mean it should be discounted and isn't valid. If anything as trainers you guys should be able to show all sides of this game without prejudice.
It is not a matter of agree'n or disagree'n with how people play. We teach them how to get up and fight. What they do when they leave us is their own business. Hopefully, we instill some form of gamesmenship in them while they are with us. If we are asked, which is what the Help and Training Forum is for, then we respond with the correct way. If you noticed my response without your personal bias you would see that was a correct response.
So what are we supposed to give ideas of how the game should be played someone elses way? As I said above the forums topic is Help and Training but it is still open to the community to discuss and talk about all the different ways to play this game. If you do not agree, it is not a less valid way of playing the game IMO.
First of all, don't come in here with your high and mighty garbage that anyones teaching noobs how to play. Of course we teach them our way. What part of "WE TEACH THEM HOW THE GAME SHOULD BE PLAYED" are you missing? That's a fact of life. Some come into the Training Arena with a mouse and can barely takeoff. They cannot use a radio. Some have never flown a plane (virtual or otherwise). They come to us and we teach them. We also teach them arena etiquette. So, YES! We absolutely teach them our way so they can get up and enjoy themselves. As they fly more and more in the arena they begin to establish they're own style of flying. They are easily influenced by the 100 or so squads and usually move from one to another until they find their niche. Once there they learn to fly the way that particular squad likes them to and they usually turn out positive additions to the game. As a final statement on it...YES, WE DO TEACH THEM OUR WAY. Until someone from above tells us to teach them differently that's what the trainers are gonna do.
You have a right to your opinion. Give it freely to whomever will listen to it. Just don't expect some trainer to jump up and say "hey, yer doing a fine job telling them how to die lousy!" It ain't gonna happen.
I respect the trainers for taking their own time to teach the noobs, but that doesn't make you guys the judge and jury of what should be said and talked about.
Your only respect is to try and keep peace while you blazenly make personal attacks. LOL.
Actually when people come to us for training thats exactly what we do. We evaluate someones flying skills, then suggest ways to fix misconceptions and work with them so they can achieve thier own personal goals.
If you want to tell someone to go auger egg some hanger to take a field what have you taught them? If you tell them to take off from a capped field to die what have you taught them? How to die? They have already learned to do that.
So far you've attempted to flame me 2x on the Help and Training Forum. Ask any trainer and you will get
"please keep your discussion to Help and Training".
Hope this helps!!
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TC I understand, I read your second post, I understood why and what you said and I was ready to accept that as good enough for me and leave it at that.
It was Ren's backhanded BS, qouted directly below, that I felt needed a response and ignited this retarded off shoot. If he wants to take pot shots he should expect to get a retourt. Him acting like he didn't expect it is even more rentarded.
At some point the trolls and everyone's ideas about how the game should be played "thier" way will push more of the old guard from the game. And these are the bread and butter folks who've always paid their bills on time. I'm not so sure youngin's are in for the long haul.
While the trainers sure do appreciate the help of the community, and I mean that sincerely, it's one thing to help us bring new folks up to speed but something entirely different to come into the training forums an spout out their personal way of doing something. They have lotsa opportunity to take someone aside and tell them how "they do it". The trainers must deal with getting the new folks up to speed quickly by teaching the correct procedures for the game. As they learn, you like all the vets flying, they will learn their own style and way of doing things. We just want to get them up flying and fighting sucessfully so they can have fun like the rest of us do.
Ren even when your told you are projecting you can't stop. My second post to you included a to you. It was meant to allay your normal incorrect and abrasive reaction of uncontrollable stoopidity, unfortunately it didn't make it past your thick skull. Getting into it with you is a complete waste of time and I did not want to go there inciting all your blabering and crying.
Your crying about me comming after you is just bunk.Actually you are merely trying to incite what you couldn't on the general discussion boards from me. Nor will I engage in it here as this is the Help and Training Forum.
But you are engaging and it is you inciting it. LOL but way not to hahaha.
Do you really think I give a crap about you? Boy you need the attention huh.
First of all, don't come in here with your high and mighty garbage that anyones teaching noobs how to play.
"Nor will I engage in it here" I thought you weren't engaging lolh.
High and mighty, get a grip. Please show me where I was acting high and mighty?
Your only respect is to try and keep peace while you blazenly make personal attacks. LOL.
Where's the personal attack? Was it this that got your panties all bunched?
Originally Posted By: mars01
Don't listen to all these wussies saying not to up from a vulched field. IL2 is great, hurr IIc, Spit 16 - LA7 if you can get it up to speed.
Thicken that skin up a little will ya sheesh. What was incorrect about what I typed. In context to this thread - "What works best for instant action?" - your answer to not do it does not help or even answer his question. Yeah your listening to your student well LOLH.
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Ren and TC:
Picking apart other people's answers, and vigorously defending yours, does not belong here. This thread's degeneration shows why.
I'm embarrassed to see this as a representation of HTC to newer guys.
Might I suggest that in the future it might be better to take a different course? When a H&T thread starts to go bad, you can change things with a simple response like "I disagree, but arguing doesnt belong here. This forum isnt about us, so lets drop it or take it elsewhere."
Trainers should have the professionalism (and probably the kindness) we see in Schatzi.
On the other hand, frankly, I'm not sure the maturity levels shown here should be empowered with moderator privileges.
:eek:
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
The Training & Help Forum is for the whole AH community, but just like any other forum, this one should be moderated as well, personally I think it should be moderated even more so than many of the other forums, for the sole purpose of making gameplay better for all......and when we are Training/Teaching people in the TA, we send them to this forum more than any other AH forum, to search tips and other things, so in a way, I feel the Trainers have a right to "police" this particular forum to make sure "wrong info or tactics" are not plastered everywhere, and don't everyone be going taking that personally or anything, am just talking/expressing my view here.......
Apparently your view is shared by Ren, and perhaps by the other trainers. If this is supposed to be an adjunct forum to the TA, then fine, the rest of us can stay out.
- oldman
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WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO THAT GROUP HUG!?!?
<--------------- scrambles!
:D
Edit - um... guys...? Not to anyone in particular and not excluding anyone in particular, but I think we're all scaring the children, if ya know what I mean.
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"Buh!!!" @Vudak :D
I agree though. Maybe this thread (at least after post no 20 or so) belongs into General Discussion?
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Simiral, Oldman, any others.............you guys assume to much, if you think I do not represent enough "professionalism" then I will kindly step out and let ya'll have it........
seems, ya'll know what is best anyways, I expressed a personal view / opinion, I did not say it was written or a verified fact/statement or any other type thing......
if you can not find merit in anything I have posted, then I seriously think each of you finding fault in my replies should take a few minutes and think about it.....
where I was "possibly" a bit over or off the subject, I kindly corrected it with a follow up post.......
it seems some are just wanting to stir the pot now or get a rise out of someone, if that is what you are looking for, then I will rise myself right up out of here....
if people don't want their replys picked apart, then think before you type, as for Schatzi, she is wonderful, and I truly appreciate her efforts in helping everyone she can, she knows how I feel, and I made my apology to her.......
so get off of it...........<----is that professional enough for all of you? you want to see my ill side of my personality? I am not defending a damn thing, Simiral, and oldman go play in your CT arena be happy getting vulched trying to get the vulcher.............there! there is the rise you all wanted to draw out .......have fun with it
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Originally posted by Vudak
Edit - um... guys...? Not to anyone in particular and not excluding anyone in particular, but I think we're all scaring the children, if ya know what I mean.
:aok
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Originally posted by Vudak
Edit - um... guys...? Not to anyone in particular and not excluding anyone in particular, but I think we're all scaring the children, if ya know what I mean.
Good point. I offer my apologies to TC and to Ren.
It's valuable experience for the kids, though, prepares them for later life.
- oldman
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This forum is open to anyone who is willing to help people with the game. It is the primary forum for the Trainers to help people as well.
In this thread there are two distinct roles being discussed which is causing a clash. The role of the trainer is to provide aid and assistance to the player who wishes to improve thier flight skills.
Then there is the role of gameplay. Gameplay is chosen by the player and not taught by the trainer. Trainers cannot alter human behavior. They only impart information to those who are looking to improve the quality of thier gameplay.
You cannot mix these two fundamentally different ideas in a conversation without stepping on toes. Anyone attempting to coerce other players into thier style of gameplay is wrong to do so. It is one thing to offer up the different styles, but it is an entirely different matter when one attempts to force other players to play 'thier' game.
Telling another player they are wrong in the way they wish to play the game is akin to telling someone they should not like Apple pie as Cherry is much better. You are wasting your time and just creating friction in doing this.
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Skuzzy, as guilty as I am for doing that... You should add that as a sticky to the General forum.
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while i've played this game for quite a while, i haven't participated in the boards up until a week or two ago. i guess this was the "accelerated" crash course for me.
it's been weird, funny, tense and all of the other things that go along with getting a bunch of diverse opinions in the same place.
TC--apology accepted and please accept my own apology. i shoulda just let the whole thing go and while i'm old enough to know better at times i'm also dumb enough to get into it anyways.
Skuzzy--thanks for the calm demeanor and clarity.
no matter what state the game is in, i still think it's the best thing going. we may all be different but in our passion for this game, we are also the same.
see you all in the MA where we can rip each other to pieces in a more civilized manner :)
best,
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oldman, zelo, Simaril, my apologys as well, no worries ......
must of been a FULL MOON recently or something.......
Thank you for posting Skuzzy,
and to all of you, I do not think I am any type of Saint in this particular thread.......
as for who post here and who doesn't, as Skuzzy said this Forum is for EVERYONE.......and we ( Trainers and the whole AH Community ) appreciate the volunteered postings of help and suggestions from everyone.......
see you all in the AH Skies........ ~S~
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Ahhh I love you guys :D
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:)
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109-g14 with 25% fuel, the 1x20mm and 2x12.7mm gun package.
This thing will climb like a bat outta hell.
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For base defense, Hurri2C.
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Originally posted by BlckMgk
109-g14 with 25% fuel, the 1x20mm and 2x12.7mm gun package.
This thing will climb like a bat outta hell.
Haha, yea... it'll climb like a bat outta hel for 3 minutes... then it'll be out of gas.
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Originally posted by Vudak
Well at any rate, I think the original poster got many good responses on how to do what he asked, why he shouldn't be frustrated when he does it, and alternative suggestions to keep him from hurtling his joystick at the screen when frustration does indeed kick in.
I'd say it's time for a group hug :D
eww.
I was the original poster and I got lots of awesome answers, thank you to those who took the time.
I don't get frustrated when I die, I try to record my flights and see where exactly I lost SA or made the mistake that got me dead. Upping from a vulched field is a bad odds scenario at best, and I realize that. Sometimes though it can be a lot of fun if the FH is still up, one time I dropped onto the field with a 38 in my sights and whacked him without even starting my engine.
Dying is part of the game, and while I play cautiously sometimes, you gotta get in there and find out what works and what doesn't. it's not about scores for me.
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il2s
and ive been messed up preety bad before trying vulch ki67's
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Spit XVI or IL2
The Spit16 with it's twin 50cal and twin 20mm combined with the turning lets you put up a good fight.
The IL2 is slow, tuff and it has some BIG cannon. I hit a F4U at about 1000yds, one cannon round found it's mark and down he went. Sure it was a lucky shot but, it taught me to respect those guns.
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I got into a little bit of that H2H had quite a blast after I realized I was being vulched by a tank hidden in a hanger.:noid
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you know, you could always up a osti like me..... good way to kill some of those vulchers if you can hit em.
regaurds,
LTARdeth