Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Bruno on April 26, 2006, 03:20:28 PM
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First some 1./SG5 background.
Originally, 1./SG5 was formed in Oct. '43 from 1./St.G.5 along with the rest of I./SG5 (STAB, 1, 2, 3./SG5). In May '44 1./SG5 was re-designated as 2./NSGr.8.
A new 1./SG5 began to reassemble in Feb. '44 at Petsamo from 14.(Jabo)/JG5 and in May '44 14.(Jabo)/JG5 was officially re-designated as 1./SG5. I./SG5 (including 1./SG5) formed part of Gefechtsverbänd Kuhlmey and served in Finland from June '44 until Aug '44 during heavy defensive battles in Karelia. From 8.44 until 9.44 I./SG 5 returned to 3. Flieger-Division until Jan '45 when I./SG5 was re-designated as III./KG200.
(http://img142.potato.com/loc198/th_80515_F8SG51.jpg) (http://img142.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc198&image=80515_F8SG51.jpg)
(http://img9.potato.com/loc292/th_80522_F8SG52.jpg) (http://img9.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc292&image=80522_F8SG52.jpg)
(http://img137.potato.com/loc78/th_80528_F8SG53.jpg) (http://img137.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc78&image=80528_F8SG53.jpg)
(http://img128.potato.com/loc72/th_80535_F8SG54.jpg) (http://img128.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc72&image=80535_F8SG54.jpg)
(http://img148.potato.com/loc23/th_80543_F8SG55.jpg) (http://img148.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc23&image=80543_F8SG55.jpg)
(http://img108.potato.com/loc177/th_80711_F8SG56.jpg) (http://img108.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc177&image=80711_F8SG56.jpg)
(http://img21.potato.com/loc217/th_80728_F8SG57.jpg) (http://img21.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc217&image=80728_F8SG57.jpg)
(http://img14.potato.com/loc218/th_80734_F8SG58.jpg) (http://img14.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc218&image=80734_F8SG58.jpg)
(http://img139.potato.com/loc237/th_80748_F8SG59.jpg) (http://img139.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc237&image=80748_F8SG59.jpg)
Please offer a proper critique. If any wants the .bmp of this FW to view on their own let me know.
Wotan
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WOOHOO!!!
You read my mind Wotan!
This is the EXACT F-8 I wanted to see!
I probably can provide you some extra material that might be hard to come by out side of Finland (a GREAT profile drawing by a finnish artist for example). I assume you have the same photos though? Tell me what you have...I probably can provide you extra stuff of this plane.
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Just a few things:
- I think the number 10 is a bit wide compared to its height (it should be a bit taller) and the white outline is a bit too thick as well.
- The balkenkreuz looks a bit too big as well (The baclk 10 and the balkenkreuz should be father apart)
- On the left side of the rudder there should be some spots of primer (most probably bright red) due to battle damage repairs.
- The spinner was all black.
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Great thanks for the input...
Do you have a better / clearer / larger image? I have a small b/w image from a booklet and it's not very clear...
If you do can you please scan it and send it to me?
Wotan AT wuergerstaffel.atspace DOTcom
Any more input or comment please feel free to post them. I will make correctings based on your past comments and post new images probrably sometime Saturday...
TIA
Wotan
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I really like that... please don't dirty it up too much. :)
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Great Work Wotan !
Originally posted by Dux
I really like that... please don't dirty it up too much. :)
Yep , for once I would fly a brand new plane fresh from factory and not a rusty POS :)
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- I think the number 10 is a bit wide compared to its height (it should be a bit taller) and the white outline is a bit too thick as well.
- The balkenkreuz looks a bit too big as well (The baclk 10 and the balkenkreuz should be father apart)
I reworked the markings real quick, tell me what you think:
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/F8markings.jpg)
I will have to do some work on the camo / mottle to adjust for the new markings layers. This is just a temp but actual size.
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The number one should look a bit different and the outer corners of the zero shouldn't be that round. I'll send you the profile right away so you can copy a basis for the numbers from it.
I have tree nice photographs but my scanner is refusing to work with my puter right now! :( I'll try to get it sorted and scan those photos for you.
Guys, sorry but this plane is gonna be fairly dirty. :) ...well not that dirty the traces of hard use and over painted markings from former units make it look far from one that comes out of a factory. ;)
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LOL sometimes I seem to be blind...
Forgot to mention that the overall tone should be that "day fighter grey". And the number "E" under the wing and the new style underwing balkenkreuzes...anyways you'll see them when you see the profile, it's in your mailbox! :)
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Got the profile, if you get your scanner working please send me whatever else you have...
Many Thanks...
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This is from a decal sheet for LW aircraft. Note how the 1 looks and how the square zero looks. You're pretty close. I'd probably not quibble with the slight differences.
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As I said I only have a small black and white image but I did research the background of 1./SG 5s 190s when trying to interpret the colors from the photo.
The information I have found is that 14./(J)JG5 painted their 190s with standard 74/75/76 camouflage. 14.(J)/JG5 used black numbers with a rather thick white outline. These numerals were much larger (higher) than those used by the fighters, reaching from the rear part of the wing fillet and almost up to the cockpit rim. 14.(J)/JG5 had mostly A-3s though...
In Jan/Feb 44 I./SG 5 was still flying Stukas. In May '44 1./SG5 was re-designated as 2./NSGr.8 (Nachtschlachtgruppe) and kept their Stukas.
14./(J)JG5 was then re-designated as a new 1./SG 5 in May '44. At this time (June '44) I./SG 5 had just 8 Fw 190F-8s.
Looking at the image I have I find that the upper surface camouflage is really contrasted against the under surface. I used 74/75/76 but instead of using 74 as a dark grey I chose a more greenish grey tone. I have found that there are two tones of RLM 74, one a dark grey and the other more greenish or green grey. I have read where JG54 found that 74/75/76 standard grey camouflage was ineffective low on the deck over dark green Russian forests.
With all this in mind I chose a more 'green' RLM 74 rather then the dark grey.
If you see my JG52 (white 21) 109G-14 in the main I used the standard greys 74/75/76.
I also consulted several web pages including:
Camouflage & Markings: Early Focke-Wulf Fw 190s (http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/08/stuff_eng_profile_fw190a4.htm)
The profiles of both Schnell and Bühlmann's 190s are listed as 74/75/76 and 74 is the more green grey.
I also consulted this page:
Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings (http://users.hol.gr/~nowi/)
and the color swatches they show for the Fw 190 show RLM as more green grey rather then dark grey.
The profile that Wmaker was kind enough to send me shows standard grey.
I can do it in grey or a version in grey and see which one is preferred.
Also, the profile Wmaker sent me has just the top of the tail/rudder in yellow. From the image I have the contrast of the top and the rest of the rudder are similiar. It was my conclusion that the entire rudder as well as the top of the tail was/is yellow/gelbe.
Krusty,
LW numerals varied quite a bit rather then using a standard stencil I would rather the marking reflect the source. My first set of markings were based off the information I gathered on 14./(J)JG 5 in that they used a larger numeral with a thicker white outline.
Hopefully, I can come up with a clearer picture of this FW 190.
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(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/F8markings.jpg)
(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/F8markings2.jpg)
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(http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/747576.jpg)
Variations of RLM 74
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I see what you mean by the overall color, and it's hard to tell for sure from the pics. There is a rear quarter view that shows a distinctive line on the rudder which suggests the yellow color on the rudder is the same as in the profile. I'll try to get those pics to you tomorrow one way or another!
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Sounds great, thanks for the help...
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SS with updated markings:
(http://img107.potato.com/loc298/th_72188_F8SG510.jpg) (http://img107.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc298&image=72188_F8SG510.jpg)
(http://img44.potato.com/loc25/th_72195_F8SG511.jpg) (http://img44.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc25&image=72195_F8SG511.jpg)
(http://img128.potato.com/loc8/th_72202_F8SG512.jpg) (http://img128.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc8&image=72202_F8SG512.jpg)
I want to get a look at some better pictures before I change the spinner and rudder.
Also, I a bit divided on the RLM 74 grey green vs. dark grey...
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Yep, that colour is a tough one. I know that my personal opinion is totally useless as I first saw that profile over ten years ago and those are the colours that have been etched into my brain. So I will always think that "it must be correct"...and the grey scheme looks more menacing. ;) :D
When I have more time I'll take a deeper look into my sources. I just know that Mr. Manninen is one of the leading finnish aviation historians so he should be a credible source. But of course like all sources he may be wrong aswell...
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Wotan,
Pics are in your mailbox.
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Great!!!
All Black spinner...
Top of the tail definately Gelbe
Nice shot of the under wing 'E'
Now to try and interpret the upper surface camouflage 'tone'. I will ask on a couple of LW and modeling forums.
I did find out that RLM 74 'Grey Green' was officially discontinued in mid-1944. However, older aircraft would have retained the finish unless substantially rebuilt. The contrast between the dark upper surface camouflage and the lighter under coat is well defined.
Any way I will research the camo a bit more over the week end and see if I can come up with a better answer.
Thanks,
Wotan
ps: What Book / ISBN did the scan come from..?
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Wotan, you have a PM...
(http://www.apali.fi/kuvat/sks_kansi_net.jpg)
http://www.apali.fi/uk/sks_uk.html
EDIT/ISBN: 952-5026-07-8/EDIT
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Thanks Wmaker...
got PM and taken care off...
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Originally posted by Wmaker
Wotan, you have a PM...
(http://www.apali.fi/kuvat/sks_kansi_net.jpg)
http://www.apali.fi/uk/sks_uk.html
EDIT/ISBN: 952-5026-07-8/EDIT
Could you please send me a high resolution scan of that book cover if ou have it? I want to make up some victory graphics for the rudder of LW aircraft. I already have the wreath part pretty much done. But the bars underneath are hard to discern. Need some good references. :)
Hope someone can help me out! I wish the book were available on Amazon..I would surely buy it up!
David "96Delta"
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Please don't clutter this thread with o/t posts.
You can find several books on LW kill / rudder markings by doing a google search.
Luftwaffe Rudder Markings 1936-1945
by Obermaier
ISBN: 0887403379
for one
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nm
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(http://img31.potato.com/loc33/th_38985_F8SG5G1.jpg) (http://img31.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc33&image=38985_F8SG5G1.jpg)
(http://img45.potato.com/loc107/th_38993_F8SG5G2.jpg) (http://img45.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc107&image=38993_F8SG5G2.jpg)
(http://img129.potato.com/loc149/th_38998_F8SG5G3.jpg) (http://img129.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc149&image=38998_F8SG5G3.jpg)
(http://img147.potato.com/loc110/th_39003_F8SG5G4.jpg) (http://img147.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc110&image=39003_F8SG5G4.jpg)
(http://img133.potato.com/loc238/th_39009_F8SG5G5.jpg) (http://img133.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc238&image=39009_F8SG5G5.jpg)
(http://img13.potato.com/loc120/th_39016_F8SG5G6.jpg) (http://img13.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc120&image=39016_F8SG5G6.jpg)
(http://img104.potato.com/loc128/th_39021_F8SG5G7.jpg) (http://img104.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc128&image=39021_F8SG5G7.jpg)
(http://img144.potato.com/loc22/th_39027_F8SG5G8.jpg) (http://img144.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc22&image=39027_F8SG5G8.jpg)
(http://img31.potato.com/loc277/th_39032_F8SG5G9.jpg) (http://img31.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc277&image=39032_F8SG5G9.jpg)
(http://img102.potato.com/loc284/th_39038_F8SG5G10.jpg) (http://img102.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc284&image=39038_F8SG5G10.jpg)
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Just to be sure, the images above are thumbnails just click on them for hi-res images. A couple folks have contacted me asking for me to post larger images.
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Originally posted by Bruno
Just to be sure, the images above are thumbnails just click on them for hi-res images. A couple folks have contacted me asking for me to post larger images.
:rofl :rofl :t :rofl
:o sorry I couldnt resist......
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It sure looks a badass in the grey scheme! :cool:
Last things I'd correct are the font of the letter "E" and the lower wing balkenkreuzes...they had the same wider white outline as did the fuselage insignias.
EDIT/Also, the colour of the E was most probably dark green./EDIT
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(http://img129.potato.com/loc209/th_73256_F8SG5G10.jpg) (http://img129.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc209&image=73256_F8SG5G10.jpg)
The E is dark Green with a white border but with the lighting in the SS above it looks black...