Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StarOfAfrica2 on April 27, 2006, 06:14:28 PM
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I know we had a thread on this, but it devolved into a bunch of opinions on Iraq. I read Mr. Beamer's letter today, and just thought I'd share what he thinks. His son was Todd Beamer.
United 93
By DAVID BEAMER
April 27, 2006; Page A18
The calendar says it's April 25, 2006. At noon, my wife, Peggy, and I are walking around Battery Park -- near the Tribeca area -- in New York. It is our first time. The flowers are blooming; kids are fishing; people boarding the ferry to Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty. Kids are laughing and noisy. The sun is shining. The vendors are hawking T-shirts, pretzels and some "designer" wares. And just up the street there is a hole in the skyline and in the ground.
In the park, there is a memorial with walls standing tall. Walls filled with so many names of those who gave their all in the Atlantic in World War II. How fitting that the names are here to honor those who gave their lives to enable this fun, this laughter -- on this sunny day. The sights and sounds of freedom continue.
Fast forward -- it is 10:30 p.m., April 25. We have just seen a movie premiere at the fifth annual Tribeca Film Festival. A film festival that has done so much to energize and revitalize the city, its people and especially the area that has that hole in the skyline and in the ground. This year the movie that had its worldwide premiere at the festival is titled "United 93." It is about the day when the hole in the skyline of New York was made -- the day when a hole was made in the side of the Pentagon near Washington, D.C. -- the day when a hole was made in a quiet mountain meadow in Pennsylvania. The day that our nation was attacked; the day when the war came home -- Sept. 11, 2001. The day our son Todd boarded United 93.
Paul Greengrass and Universal set out to tell the story of United Flight 93 on that terrible day in our nation's history. They set about the task of telling this story with a genuine intent to get it right -- the actions of those on board and honor their memory. Their extensive research included reaching out to all the families who had lost loved ones on United Flight 93 as the first casualties of this war. And Paul and his team got it right.
There are those who question the timing of this project and the painful memories it evokes. Clearly, the film portrays the reality of the attack on our homeland and its terrible consequences. Often we attend movies to escape reality and fantasize a bit. In this case and at this time, it is appropriate to get a dose of reality about this war and the real enemy we face. It is not too soon for this story to be told, seen and heard. But it is too soon for us to become complacent. It is too soon for us to think of this war in only national terms. We need to be mindful that this enemy, who made those holes in our landscape and caused the deaths of some 3,000 of our fellow free people, has a vision to personally kill or convert each and every one of us. This film reminds us that this war is personal. This enemy is on a fanatical mission to take away our lives and liberty -- the liberty that has been secured for us by those whose names are on those walls in Battery Park and so many other walls and stones throughout this nation. This enemy seeks to take away the free will that our Creator has endowed in us. Patrick Henry got it right some 231 years ago. Living without liberty is not living at all.
The passengers and crew of United 93 had the blessed opportunity to understand the nature of the attack and to launch a counterattack against the enemy. This was our first successful counterattack in our homeland in this new global war -- World War III.
This film further reminds us of the nature of the enemy we face. An enemy who will stop at nothing to achieve world domination and force a life devoid of freedom upon all. Their methods are inhumane and their targets are the innocent and unsuspecting. We call this conflict the "War on Terror." This film is a wake-up call. And although we abhor terrorism as a tactic, we are at war with a real enemy and it is personal.
There are those who would hope to escape the pain of war. Can't we just live and let live and pretend every thing is OK? Let's discuss, negotiate, reason together. The film accurately shows an enemy who will stop at nothing in a quest for control. This enemy does not seek our resources, our land or our materials, but rather to alter our very way of life.
I encourage my fellow Americans and free people everywhere to see "United 93."
Be reminded of our very real enemy. Be inspired by a true story of heroic actions taken by ordinary people with victorious consequences. Be thankful for each precious day of life with a loved one and make the most of it. Resolve to take the right action in the situations of life, whatever they may be. Resolve to give thanks and support to those men, women, leaders and commanders who to this day (1,687 days since Sept. 11, 2001) continue the counterattacks on our enemy and in so doing keep us safe and our freedoms intact.
May the taste of freedom for people of the Middle East hasten victory. The enemy we face does not have the word "surrender" in their dictionary. We must not have the word "retreat" in ours. We surely want our troops home as soon as possible. That said, they cannot come home in retreat. They must come home victoriously. Pray for them.
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I went to New York. I visited the park. I saw a movie. My son died five years ago. Blah blah blah blah blah.
It's all just so much hooey. The Director of Intelligence has yet to make any changes to the intelligence community. If the Department of Homeland Security has accomplished anything it's hard to tell and the vast majority of shipments into this country are uninspected.
I don't feel any safer today than I did on September 10, 2001.
The only real difference is that air travel has become a colossal pain in the ass. Oh... that and we have one helluva federal deficit.
But what the hell... grab some popcorn, watch a flick and see if we can guess how it ends.
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And your solution is?
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Originally posted by Sandman
I went to New York. I visited the park. I saw a movie. My son died five years ago. Blah blah blah blah blah.
You really are a bitter, blind person, aren't you?
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Originally posted by Maverick
And your solution is?
Continued dissent.
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I see. So in other words bi****ng and complaining is the sum total of your plan to make the world a better place. Check. That should really make an improvement.
Are you sure you're not just a shade account for nash or gscholz??
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I vote at every election and complain to my elected representatives. That is my personal solution.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I went to New York. I visited the park. I saw a movie. My son died five years ago. Blah blah blah blah blah.
It's all just so much hooey. The Director of Intelligence has yet to make any changes to the intelligence community. If the Department of Homeland Security has accomplished anything it's hard to tell and the vast majority of shipments into this country are uninspected.
I don't feel any safer today than I did on September 10, 2001.
The only real difference is that air travel has become a colossal pain in the ass. Oh... that and we have one helluva federal deficit.
But what the hell... grab some popcorn, watch a flick and see if we can guess how it ends.
Respectfully, Mr. Beamer is not offering you the solutions to all the world's problems, not even is he offering you the solution to our problem with terrorists or even just Osama. All his letter says is that we should not put our heads in the proverbial sand hoping it was just a fluke and let the rest of the world go on by. We have a tendency to do that. A few years of domestic peace, suddenly the rest of the world's problems dont affect us, people start talking about isolationism again. We are part of the world whether we like it or not, and must react to secure our safety, or at least try.
Mr. Beamer has recognized that after a certain amount of time has passed, people want to try to forget 9/11. They want to put it in the history books and study it, but dont want it to be current. Because if it is, if all that horror and pain and anger and fear is still alive, still fresh, then so are the ones who caused it. Osama is not just a man on TV or in a history book, he is Here and NOW. Al Qeada is not just a group of extremists you hear about on talk shows and the news, they could be on your bus, on the subway, on your plane. People want to put that fear behind them and if we are going to continue chasing terrorists around the globe and fighting them, and continue to stay safe at home with extra precautions, then people have to be reminded of why we are doing it. It has to be fresh. It has to be current. It has to STAY fresh, until the job is done (if such a thing is possible). Memorials are great. For memories. This isnt about memories, or at least not JUST about memories. Its about reminding us there is still a job to do.
YOU may not need reminding. Others do.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Osama is not just a man on TV or in a history book, he is Here and NOW. Al Qeada is not just a group of extremists you hear about on talk shows and the news, they could be on your bus, on the subway, on your plane. People want to put that fear behind them and if we are going to continue chasing terrorists around the globe and fighting them, and continue to stay safe at home with extra precautions, then people have to be reminded of why we are doing it. It has to be fresh. It has to be current. It has to STAY fresh, until the job is done (if such a thing is possible). Memorials are great. For memories. This isnt about memories, or at least not JUST about memories. Its about reminding us there is still a job to do.
YOU may not need reminding. Others do.
I am in violent agreement with this. Our elected leaders have failed us. They took their eyes off the ball.
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I felt safer on September 10, 2001 than today.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
I felt safer on September 10, 2001 than today.
I don't feel any different.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I am in violent agreement with this. Our elected leaders have failed us. They took their eyes off the ball.
Again, that isnt the point here. It is true, I'm not disputing it. It's just not what this is about.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I am in violent agreement with this. Our elected leaders have failed us. They took their eyes off the ball.
*sigh* Another one who says we can't walk and chew gum . . .
War on Terrorism. Terrorism caused by a fanatical culture. Defeating said culture is only way to win said war. Said culture supported actively by many governments in the middle east. Iraq one of said governments. Iraq also "easy" target due to other international factors allowing US to invade on grounds other than "we are trying to change the fanatical culture in the middle east". Lofty goal, too be sure, but goal is to instill FREEDOM and therefore alternatives to fanatical culture in a region currently woefully short of alternatives.
Bush said from the beginning this war would outlast his two terms. It took, what 50+ years to win the "Cold War" against communism. It was fought in many ways in many places. I am not sure why people thing the "War on Terrorism" should have only been fought in Tora Bora.
You think they took their eye off the ball? Then you don't understand which game is being played.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Again, that isnt the point here. It is true, I'm not disputing it. It's just not what this is about.
Hmmm.. he wrote, "Be reminded of our very real enemy."
I think we should remember who flew those planes and remember that there was not a single Iraqi among them.
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Originally posted by E25280
*sigh* Another one who says we can't walk and chew gum . . .
War on Terrorism. Terrorism caused by a fanatical culture. Defeating said culture is only way to win said war. Said culture supported actively by many governments in the middle east. Iraq one of said governments. Iraq also "easy" target due to other international factors allowing US to invade on grounds other than "we are trying to change the fanatical culture in the middle east". Lofty goal, too be sure, but goal is to instill FREEDOM and therefore alternatives to fanatical culture in a region currently woefully short of alternatives.
Bush said from the beginning this war would outlast his two terms. It took, what 50+ years to win the "Cold War" against communism. It was fought in many ways in many places. I am not sure why people thing the "War on Terrorism" should have only been fought in Tora Bora.
You think they took their eye off the ball? Then you don't understand which game is being played.
Have some more koolaid. The billions of dollars squandered away in Iraq could have been spent right here in the U.S. Do the walk in the U.S. and chew the gum in Afghanistan. I guess Iraq counts as rubbing our bellies while we do the other two. Unfortunately, we're tripping up here at home.
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I've been sitting here typing out my personal memories of that September day for awhile now. Got pretty far. Deleted it... Might be better off for another thread.
But I realized something. I really haven't thought about it or talked about it for a hell of a long time. Way too long.
Despite my earlier stated trepidations, I'm going to see that movie.
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The war on terrorism had been going on for many years before this. After 9/11 it got a name and a bigger public view of it.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm.. he wrote, "Be reminded of our very real enemy."
I think we should remember who flew those planes and remember that there was not a single Iraqi among them.
And your point there is? The reasons for getting involved in Iraq are now irrelevant. The here and now is that we are fighting insurgent forces which are, by definition of the tactics they use and the dogma they spout, terrorists. Whether the chicken or the egg came first in this situation is a moot point. They are there NOW, we have to fight them and beat them. Pulling back is not a solution. Pushing them out of Iraq or smashing them flat where they sit are the only options. Once thats done, then its time to figure out who did what and who gets the blame for it.
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Would you rather fight the insurgents there in Iraq or here on the grounds of America. Would you like to face the possibility of being blown up by some fantatical extremist while bringing your groceries out to the car?
Terrorism has always existed and will always exist. Technology has caught up and now makes it easier, more deadly.
As for the letter (back on subject) it is for those who think that the movie shouldn't be shown. Farenheit 9/11 was shown and United 93 deserves to be shown without protest. Movies have always been done on the tragedies of America's past and no one seems to really bat an eye at them:
Black Hawk Down
Pearl Habor (yes, a love movie, but think of the history and not the horrible acting)
Assorted Vietnam movies
I can't think of more off the top of my head, but there are movies like United 93 that were shown before. It shows that Americans WILL take action when threatened and not to underestimate us.
Sure money is being spent "over there" and not here. Oh well. Theres bad people out there hurting others and all you can think about is yourself. In some countries its a miracle to live past 30, here is much different. We're one of the few countries out there that gives a damn and wants to do something about while others don't give a rats arse because they're either afraid or just too damn greedy.
Don't sit on the high horse if you have no idea what it is like to be on the bottom.
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I didn't much like Titanic either.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
I didn't much like Titanic either.
At least it had boobies.
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Originally posted by RTSigma
Would you rather fight the insurgents there in Iraq or here on the grounds of America.
Those insurgents wouldn't be in America. They exist because we created them in 2003.
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Originally posted by NattyIced
Those insurgents wouldn't be in America. They exist because we created them in 2003.
Or, we came to them, and spared them a plane ticket. Iraq tends to be closer to the other hotspots then America.
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Yes, lots of Iraqis were going to blow us up.
The insurgency is effectively a civil war over there, terrorism by a minority because they no longer have power. But I suppose if you want to convince yourself that what is going on in Iraq was going to happen here - go ahead.
I only wonder why they didn't use such simple devices as improvised meat bombs in the US before like they are in Iraq, they had all kinds of chances. Instead they chose more elaborate designs like a bomb in the parking garage of the WTC and then planes.
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glad to see some can now joke about the events of 9/11 ...
I thank my lucky stars every time 9/11 comes up that the 00 election ended the way it did .. can't image goron running our country's response to that attack .. just as the country could not image herman munster taking over in 04 ... and they sure ain't gonna hand it over to hillary in 08
keep whining lefties
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Blah blah. Lots of internet heros.
I was on the flying schedule on Sept 11. I have friends who patroled over New York on Sept 11, Sept 12... I lived the entire event as an active duty military pilot.
There are many bad people in this world, and details aside, in general I am happy that for a period of crisis, our nation was led by a man of principle. Whether or not you agree with him is irrelevant... When tough decisions had to be made, the buck stopped with a man who led by his principles rather than by whatever the polls said that week.
I judge no fewer than 6 years of my public service as true service in the nation's interest, simply because one man, right or wrong, chose to lead the nation instead of being swept away by events. The details are important only for the after-action debrief, because the damned armchair quarterbacks will ALWAYS second guess the decisions made by the one person who was truly responsible for EVERYTHING.
In my current job I'm walking the line between being merely an action officer, and guiding the nature of deterrence on the Korean Peninsula. For courage, I only have to take a look up my chain of command and see who's made the tough decisions even when they knew damn well they would not be popular decisions.
F**k everyone else, they haven't been there. They haven't strapped on the body armor or the jet. They're armchair quarterbacks at best and while that's a long American tradition, they really don't know crap. Joe citizen knows this, and I think that's why Bush won a second term.
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well said eagl
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ok sandie...you complain and you vote... that really doesn't tell us much about your solutions tho does it?
I believe that you voted for all democrats like kerrie right? that is your solution? no thanks. what do you complain about and...
What are your solutions?
lazs
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Bush's approval rating is in the toilet and you want to make this about me.
Piss off.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Bush's approval rating is in the toilet...
because we all know that is so accurate it is always right.
you know in my 33 years in this world and in this country i nor any member of my household has ever been polled on politics in any way whatsoever. earlier this week some friends and i were discussing this, and none of them or their families have ever been part of these all powerful opinion polls either. i have been asking a few people around work also. i have yet to meet anyone who has ever been a part of any "national" poll.
oh i know why you are angry... you voted for nader didn't you?
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There are those who would hope to escape the pain of war. Can't we just live and let live and pretend every thing is OK? Let's discuss, negotiate, reason together. The film accurately shows an enemy who will stop at nothing in a quest for control. This enemy does not seek our resources, our land or our materials, but rather to alter our very way of life.
Very well put. That seems to be the biggest problem in getting through to the masses. There is no negoiating, talking, BS`n around it. these people have one goal and that is to have us dead or on our face.
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Originally posted by E25280
...Said culture supported actively by many governments in the middle east. Iraq one of said governments. .
Really? What proof? Even Bush had to admit there was no tanglible link between Osama bin-Laden and Saddam Hussein and there has been absolutely no proof of any collaboration between Iraq under Hussein and Osama bin-Laden.
The war in Iraq was stupid waste of money, resources and most important, US lives. Over 2000+ US dead for what? Is our world safer? Is oil cheaper? Is Osama in jail or dead?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Really? What proof?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/27/walq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/04/27/ixnewstop.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/746741/posts
just a few reports.
go ahead and post your contrary reports, i will dismiss them the same way you will dismiss my links.
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Ack Ack, this is the problem I am referring to. You seem to be arguing that if we got Osama, we could all go home and everything would be right with the world. It wouldn't. Some other crackpot will simply take his place. That is why you need to "change the culture", so people like Osama will be fringe characters and not heros in that part of the world.
War on Terrorism. Not war on Al-Quaeda. Big difference.
Iraq's support of terrorism is well established, including payments made to families of suicide bombers, training camps, etc. They were by no means the largest player in this regard, but they were a player. They were also an "easy target" to get a foot in the door. If things had gone "well" in Iraq, I am convinced we would be in either Tehran or Damascus by now. And don't think that point isn't lost on those countries -- why do you think they are actively encouraging and aiding their people to infiltrate into Iraq and join the so-called insurgency? They are trying to tie us down, and unfortunately doing a good job of it.
Again, change the regimes that sponsor terrorism, change the culture that creates terrorism, and eventually terrorism dries up. That is the overriding goal, and has been stated as such, despite so many people trying to muddy the water over that fact.
Unfortunately it is easy for people to lose sight of the goal -- too many self-serving politicians trying to make political hay rather than see the big picture, and a doting press that slavishly repeats their talking points. And a president who unfortunately may have the right idea (in my opinion), but has done a very poor job communicating that idea and keeping it on the forefront of people's minds.
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I think flight 93 was shot down by the jets trailing it who had permission to shoot it down.
Not that I'm complaining.
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I would not mind seeing a documentary on flight 93 but the fact is, this movie isn't a documentary. At the core of the movie it's not about what really happened on that flight, it's more about working up the emotions of the audience and showing them who the heroes are and making them feel good about what our government has done and is doing. To me that’s nothing more than propaganda.
Don't get me wrong. I feel for everyone who lost a loved one on that terrible day and I know I'm not alone when I say that I remember it like it happened yesterday and I will never forget a single detail as long as I live. But is this movie how I want to remember them? Eating popcorn, candy and soda and shushing the giggling teenagers and bratty kids who couldn't care less? To me this movie is an insult to what happened that day. I don't need some propaganda to remind me of what this country and it's citizens has been through. I will never forget.
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Originally posted by Suave
I think flight 93 was shot down by the jets trailing it who had permission to shoot it down.
Not that I'm complaining.
was it empty and really rc'd by the cia too?
lol
we didn't land on the moon either - cause everyone knows it is made of cheese and the astronauts didn't even smell like cheese when they returned :)
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Originally posted by E25280
It took, what 50+ years to win the "Cold War" against communism.
Don't look now but over a quarter of the worlds population is still communist. And they are winning the economic war.
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The executive decided early on that we could successfuly wage war against terrorist states in the mold of 'proxy war'.. a policy that our own history has shown to be ineffective and indecisive.
The citizens of this country were not enlisted to build ships, planes, tanks.. instead they were enlisted to provide moral support for a small military force with finite capability. The press was enlisted to join the troops and show the country what they endure... the media revolted after a couple of years.
The political power base in the country squandered it's opportunity to effect a significant change in the world view of terrorist states, failed to provide the military with the resourcres required to effectively nail the lid on the insurgency.
And the executive failed to apply the lessons of sustained low order conflict losses on an american public that detests long low order conflicts.
What could we, what can we do now? As citizens are choices are finite.. support the continued 'forever war' policy of feeding american kids into the grinder in a foriegn land for indetectable and undecisive 'gains'? Continue to allow the administration to foster domestic erosion of civil liberty against what the nation sees as 'a boogyman'? As someone up therad pointed out, they have failed.. failed to secure our borders and ports.. after 5 years! Made travel an infinite procession of pains in our asses.. figuratively as well as literally, made privacy a thing of transparency.
Sad to say.. the nation that rose in wrath on december 8th 1941 in 4 short years waged a world war and clearly destroyed the forces arrayed against it.
This time.. after a second, more horrific pearl harbor than the first, two years longer than the first... we have accomplished exactly nothing significant. The executive squandered the opportunity to enlist a nation enraged to accomplish a clear necessary goal.. destroy ALL terrorist supporting states.
No Fleets. No Million Man Army. No Victory.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I would not mind seeing a documentary on flight 93 but the fact is, this movie isn't a documentary. At the core of the movie it's not about what really happened on that flight, it's more about working up the emotions of the audience and showing them who the heroes are and making them feel good about what our government has done and is doing. To me that’s nothing more than propaganda.
Don't get me wrong. I feel for everyone who lost a loved one on that terrible day and I know I'm not alone when I say that I remember it like it happened yesterday and I will never forget a single detail as long as I live. But is this movie how I want to remember them? Eating popcorn, candy and soda and shushing the giggling teenagers and bratty kids who couldn't care less? To me this movie is an insult to what happened that day. I don't need some propaganda to remind me of what this country and it's citizens has been through. I will never forget.
You have a right to your feelings of course. But, respectfully, I really dont think the families of the people who were on the plane are going to care that you are offended or insulted by it. That is the one plane that did no harm to anyone outside, and the only ones living who should have any call to be insulted by it were all consulted and gave their approval. If it insults you, dont see it. If you only see it as pure propaganda, dont see it. Simple huh?
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Something from Robin Cook's resignation speech as UK Foreign Secretary back in March 2003 has always struck me as pithy:
"Only a year ago, we and the United States were part of a coalition against terrorism that was wider and more diverse than I would ever have imagined possible.
History will be astonished at the diplomatic miscalculations that led so quickly to the disintegration of that powerful coalition."
Afghanistan had the backing of the entire world. Iraq was/is a stupid diversion. Cook had it right.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
The executive decided early on that we could successfuly wage war against terrorist states in the mold of 'proxy war'.. a policy that our own history has shown to be ineffective and indecisive.
The citizens of this country were not enlisted to build ships, planes, tanks.. instead they were enlisted to provide moral support for a small military force with finite capability. The press was enlisted to join the troops and show the country what they endure... the media revolted after a couple of years.
The political power base in the country squandered it's opportunity to effect a significant change in the world view of terrorist states, failed to provide the military with the resourcres required to effectively nail the lid on the insurgency.
And the executive failed to apply the lessons of sustained low order conflict losses on an american public that detests long low order conflicts.
What could we, what can we do now? As citizens are choices are finite.. support the continued 'forever war' policy of feeding american kids into the grinder in a foriegn land for indetectable and undecisive 'gains'? Continue to allow the administration to foster domestic erosion of civil liberty against what the nation sees as 'a boogyman'? As someone up therad pointed out, they have failed.. failed to secure our borders and ports.. after 5 years! Made travel an infinite procession of pains in our asses.. figuratively as well as literally, made privacy a thing of transparency.
Sad to say.. the nation that rose in wrath on december 8th 1941 in 4 short years waged a world war and clearly destroyed the forces arrayed against it.
This time.. after a second, more horrific pearl harbor than the first, two years longer than the first... we have accomplished exactly nothing significant. The executive squandered the opportunity to enlist a nation enraged to accomplish a clear necessary goal.. destroy ALL terrorist supporting states.
No Fleets. No Million Man Army. No Victory.
I think that's one of the best summaries of post 9/11 that I've seen. I agree 100% with your assessment. The American public and the worlds support was there for the taking and this administration pissed it away.
Of course there are still many diehards who still have their heads in the sand.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
You have a right to your feelings of course. But, respectfully, I really dont think the families of the people who were on the plane are going to care that you are offended or insulted by it. That is the one plane that did no harm to anyone outside, and the only ones living who should have any call to be insulted by it were all consulted and gave their approval. If it insults you, dont see it. If you only see it as pure propaganda, dont see it. Simple huh?
Yes, it is simple. I won't see it, but I would not stand in anyone else’s way if they wish to see it either. Just putting out a different opinion for people to chew on. Nothing more.
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Why do we keep coming back to this? Has everyone not had a chance to beat their chests and show off their intellect yet after all this time?
1. I dont think anyone on this board disputes that for all the reasons we had for invading Iraq, none of them panned out. It was stupid. It wasted resources and lives and should never have been.
2. Wishing for "what if" scenarios ranks right up there with watching Mary Poppins for passing the time. Not only is it pure fantasy, its rather naive fantasy at that. We have the situation we have. No amount of finger pointing is going to make it go away, nor is any amount of what-if playing.
3. Nobody is asking any of us for opinions on how to fight the war. So hijacking threads trying to get your ideas out there wont get them heard any more than starting your own thread. Take Iraq somewhere else ok? This isnt a movie about the war in Iraq. This isnt a thread about how this movie impacts the war in Iraq. Put your ideas in the proper place for proper discussion.
Thanks
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
1. I dont think anyone on this board disputes that for all the reasons we had for invading Iraq, none of them panned out. It was stupid. It wasted resources and lives and should never have been.
we keep coming back because people like myself completely disagree with your above statement. utterly and completely disagree, and think it is foolish to think iraq was just fine and dandy.
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Ok, I have no objection to Flight 93.
However, it's 'pointless' monicker might be closer to the mark in the context of 'propaganda value'.
Cases in point.. the propaganda flics churned out during the war.. 'flying tigers'. 'wake', 'bataan' etc.
There we had a nation at war.. and folks wanted to see what they were fighting for. The movies were forumla.. atrocity, reaction, glory, sacrafice, job to do; pitch in!
Whats Flight 93's formula.. whats the message?
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Originally posted by Hangtime;
Whats Flight 93's formula.. whats the message?
The message is; The official story is the only story. Disregard the fact that the cockpit tapes still haven't been released to the public. Disregard the fact that a shoot down order was issued (but not executed?). Forget about the fact that all the evidence doesn't add up. Disregard that there are inconsistancies in the official story.
This is the story, and we're sticking to it.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
The executive decided early on that we could successfuly wage war against terrorist states in the mold of 'proxy war'.. a policy that our own history has shown to be ineffective and indecisive.
The citizens of this country were not enlisted to build ships, planes, tanks.. instead they were enlisted to provide moral support for a small military force with finite capability. The press was enlisted to join the troops and show the country what they endure... the media revolted after a couple of years.
The political power base in the country squandered it's opportunity to effect a significant change in the world view of terrorist states, failed to provide the military with the resourcres required to effectively nail the lid on the insurgency.
And the executive failed to apply the lessons of sustained low order conflict losses on an american public that detests long low order conflicts.
What could we, what can we do now? As citizens are choices are finite.. support the continued 'forever war' policy of feeding american kids into the grinder in a foriegn land for indetectable and undecisive 'gains'? Continue to allow the administration to foster domestic erosion of civil liberty against what the nation sees as 'a boogyman'? As someone up therad pointed out, they have failed.. failed to secure our borders and ports.. after 5 years! Made travel an infinite procession of pains in our asses.. figuratively as well as literally, made privacy a thing of transparency.
Sad to say.. the nation that rose in wrath on december 8th 1941 in 4 short years waged a world war and clearly destroyed the forces arrayed against it.
This time.. after a second, more horrific pearl harbor than the first, two years longer than the first... we have accomplished exactly nothing significant. The executive squandered the opportunity to enlist a nation enraged to accomplish a clear necessary goal.. destroy ALL terrorist supporting states.
No Fleets. No Million Man Army. No Victory.
C'mon man. It's not enough to point out that something is broken. You have to provide a solution. :t
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Sandy.. no amount of political posturing will motivate the folks in this nation to a just and total world war short of another 9/11 disaster.
It is a sad truisim that other nations and political entities can kidnap, rape and murder our women, kill our troops piecemeal on foriegn soil, attack, seize and nationalize our business intrests, spy upon us, rob us blind, default on treaties and attack our allies without fear of significant reaction from the 'sleeping giant' that is America.
But bomb our citizens in their beds, blow up some buildings, take out a blue city.. the wrath of the American nation will be aroused. Nothing less will do it.
Just as FDR needed peal harbor to unleash the American Juggernaut.. so it remains today. George missed the chance to get it done with the support of a huge number of other national entities... and he pissed it away.
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militant islam is our enemy and there is plenty of militant islam in iraq and the middle east.
Better to draw the hatred there and kill the militants as they are made then to allow militant islam to fester on through back to new york or seattle.
sandman is doing all thinking people a great service here, he exposes himself and allows us to study his thoughts.
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Surprise surprise... we are in violent agreement, Hang. :)
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George missed the chance to get it done with the support of a huge number of other national entities... and he pissed it away.
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agreed. I had a festering idea that I would one day come to despise GWB and I sense that day is near.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
we keep coming back because people like myself completely disagree with your above statement. utterly and completely disagree, and think it is foolish to think iraq was just fine and dandy.
Fine, then with all respect, take your response to that idea and form a thread about it. Then we can discuss it adnauseum. Mmkay?
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Originally posted by Yeager
militant islam is our enemy and there is plenty of militant islam in iraq and the middle east.
Better to draw the hatred there and kill the militants as they are made then to allow militant islam to fester on through back to new york or seattle.
sandman is doing all thinking people a great service here, he exposes himself and allows us to study his thoughts.
Yeag.. he does not have his head in the sand. never did. never changed his mind. completely consistent. rational. I often disagree with the guy, and we're on opposite ends of the political spectrum more often than not. But with regards to the way this 'war' has been fought on the ground and in the media I have discovered that I was wrong.. and he never was.
Pull 'emotion' outta the equation. rehtoric. passion.
Just look at history.. look at where we are.
He's right. George played the wrong cards, made the wrong bids, missed the tally and the trump suit.
And we're (the nation) are at an impasse; caught with our proverbial dicks in our hands, wares down around the ankles. And it does not take a rocket scientest to understand we can't win the game the way it's being played today.
Bummer.
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"but, but if we'd done this instead of that ..."
bunch of second guessers ...
hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20
imo we are right where we need to be ... right next door to Iran
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Eagler previously wrote:
imo we are right where we need to be ... right next door to Iran
Afghanistan?
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"Surprise surprise... we are in violent agreement, Hang."
The more you use that phrase, the more I think you are really saying, "I want to have violent man-sex with you.".
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Originally posted by Eagler
"but, but if we'd done this instead of that ..."
bunch of second guessers ...
hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20
imo we are right where we need to be ... right next door to Iran
And because of our excursion in Iraq, Iran has more freedom to get the nuclear equation, not less.
We squandered that projection of power.
Based upon right where we need to be, wouldn't be IN Iran, not next door?
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thrawn, Sometimes the thoughts we read into others stated thoughts tends to reflect our own innermoist, err innermost thoughts <--- see what I mean :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AlGorithm
Afghanistan?
Landlocked. Logistical pain in the butt, I'd imagine.
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Originally posted by Yeager
thrawn, Sometimes the thoughts we read into others stated thoughts tends to reflect our own innermoist, err innermost thoughts <--- see what I mean :rolleyes:
Kinda creeps me out. :eek:
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Originally posted by Stringer
And because of our excursion in Iraq, Iran has more freedom to get the nuclear equation, not less.
We squandered that projection of power.
Based upon right where we need to be, wouldn't be IN Iran, not next door?
what do you mean? how does iran have more freedom?
I think just the opposite..
If SH was still thumbing his nose to the un, they'd even carry less weight than they do today ... (if that is possible)
imagine how much firepower we can now get so close to Iran .. but I hope we do not have to
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Ealger,
Toad stated it better than I could in another thread.
OTOH, I think Iran correctly perceives that our military is worn down and stretched (once again I smile when I think of all the continual assurances we've had since the '60's that we could fight two major wars at one time.) and I think they believe (rightly so) that Bush wouldn't be able to get Congress to sign off on an invasion of Iran.
They are Toad's words, but I believe he hit the mark better than I could.
But that's what I meant by how we have squandered the projection of power.
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Tell ya what...
Lets all see the movie then come back and express our feelings.
nuff said.
Momma always said "Life is like a Box of Chocolates..."
With that in mind, and I'm not mocking Forrest Gump either...he had a good mind. Take a look at the Movie if you don't like it walk on out. Freedom Rings.
Just remember there are some that give their all to protect those that give nothing at all.
Mac
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Originally posted by Hangtime
This time.. after a second, more horrific pearl harbor than the first, two years longer than the first... we have accomplished exactly nothing significant. The executive squandered the opportunity to enlist a nation enraged to accomplish a clear necessary goal.. destroy ALL terrorist supporting states.
No Fleets. No Million Man Army. No Victory.
Sorry Hang, but you're wrong here.
9/11 wasn't enough to give the US carte blanche to clean house around the world.
First of all, there would have been the squabble over listing "terrorist supporting states". You wouldn't have to go far on this board to find some that consider the US itself to be one of those.
Second, there was really no evidence chain. As Sandman so often points out, there wasn't a single Iraqi on those planes. You could probably list another good handful of states that you'd call "terrorist supporting" that had no nationals on the planes. Then you and Sandy would be in opposition again. ;)
The reason why there was no Million Man Army is because they'd have been all dressed up with no where to go.
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Originally posted by Stringer
Ealger,
Toad stated it better than I could in another thread.
They are Toad's words, but I believe he hit the mark better than I could.
But that's what I meant by how we have squandered the projection of power.
who is talking about an invasion?
I would not want to see one US boot print on Iranian soil ... no need
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First of all, there would have been the squabble over listing "terrorist supporting states". You wouldn't have to go far on this board to find some that consider the US itself to be one of those.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/target/interviews/woodward.html
Because diplomacy and military action didn't work. We took the Marines out of Lebanon after the bombing. Diplomacy was not functioning. And Reagan wanted action. And Casey went off the books on his own, and worked it out with the Saudis to pay two million dollars to get...people to build this car bomb that killed eighty innocent people in Beirut [in 1985] and not Sheik Fadlallah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles
Luis Posada Carriles (born February 15, 1928) is an anti-Castro and anti-Communist émigré who is alleged by his communist enemies to have been involved in numerous violent terrorist plots, including hotel bombings and the 1976 bombing of a Cubana Flight 455 in which seventy-three people were killed. He denies the allegations. He has also been accused of being involved in Operation Condor, namely in Orlando Letelier's murder in Washington, D.C., a few weeks before Cubana de Aviación's explosion by his political enemies. Posada has lived in Venezuela, where he became a naturalized citizen and served in its political police; and the United States, where he served in the U.S. Army and developed a relationship with the CIA.
In April 2005, Posada sought political asylum in the United States. Venezuela, an ally of Castro's Cuba, has formally requested Posada's extradition,[1] as has Cuba [2]. A Department of Homeland Security judge ruled that he cannot be deported because of threat of torture in Venezuela
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Originally posted by Toad
Sorry Hang, but you're wrong here.
9/11 wasn't enough to give the US carte blanche to clean house around the world.
First of all, there would have been the squabble over listing "terrorist supporting states". You wouldn't have to go far on this board to find some that consider the US itself to be one of those.
Second, there was really no evidence chain. As Sandman so often points out, there wasn't a single Iraqi on those planes. You could probably list another good handful of states that you'd call "terrorist supporting" that had no nationals on the planes. Then you and Sandy would be in opposition again. ;)
The reason why there was no Million Man Army is because they'd have been all dressed up with no where to go.
LOL.. on the face of it; you could say so.. but; guess what? Syria, Saudi Arabia, and yes, oh yes; Iran and the eastern 'ungoverned provinces' of Pakistan would be excllent places to 'reorganize' a million man force. There's also some attention needed above the 38th parallel in Korea.
....but since our oil man pres and his family is pal's with the saudi & kuwati oil princes... well; suffice to say we really fought the first war in the gulf fer Princes and Pipelines. The second was fer dad and the Princes... again.
So.. how long are we gonna just sit here and armchair general the lives of our kids for the princes and their oil?
Obstensibly (in the latest history re-write) we went into Iraq because Saddam was a madman bad guy that needed to go down. I don't see the Princes as any less of a threat than saddam was.
So, no; I disagree. Plenty oif places to send a million man army, out in the field to install democracies and justice for the average camel humper.
*sigh*
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Originally posted by Hangtime
So, no; I disagree. Plenty oif places to send a million man army, out in the field to install democracies and justice for the average camel humper.
See the post above yours by the new shade, AlGorithm.
As I said, there'd be no support.