Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Frodo on April 27, 2006, 08:20:00 PM
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http://www.alexvraciu.net/#Vraciu
Pulled this from another board, and found it interesting. Does he deserve it? I vote yes.
Read the details of the missions!
Frodo
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Frodo I would say yes.
However, you cant overlook others that also deserve the Medal of Honor. I have read many accounts of people in the army, navy, etc. doing acts that should deserve the Medal of Honor but they only recieve the DSC, Navy Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star, etc.
Read one account believe he was in the army or marines, (can look it up if I can find it) he did a act of bravery and of skill that every general and comrade thought he should deserve the Medal of Honor and he only recieved a DSC. They said some parts of his act wasnt enough proof so they didnt give it to him. His family rebrought up the case in the future either in the 90's or 2000's to get him the Medal of Honor but they dropped the case and said it will not be brought up again.
I think its pretty sad that some people didnt recieve the Medal of Honor just because the evidence isnt conclusive. If every general and comrade thinks you should recieve it, that should be enough proof right there.
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should be able to get at least 9 or 10 kills in a hog of any model if they are jabo dweebs, wheres my medal?:mad:
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While Vraciu may certainly be worthy of consideration, he wasn't the only pilot who had an CMoH recommendation downgraded. Read the story of George Welch (http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch1.html) and see if you don't think he was unfairly denied what he truly deserved.
My regards,
Widewing
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Hoarach I agree many deserved more.
Widewing I agree, Welch for sure deserved one. Knew his story, and thanks for the link.
Frodo
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Problem is if you go back now and change things for the guys with the better PR, what do you do about all those guys who deserved it and didn't get noticed like some of the other guys?
Does it change anything in terms of how we see those guys if they upgrade a medal to the MOH? I gotta believe they didn't do what they did for a medal.
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I agree with Guppy.
That's just the way things are.
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The same welch that busted the sound barrier in the f86!
The first team indeed.
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If you read the link closely, you will see he was denied because of a clerical/radio error, from what I understood. That is my reasoning for the medal.
No doubt there are many more that deserve it, that are known, and unknown.
Frodo
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Thanks for checking out my site guys. I'm the main spearhead on this effort and I want to make a point or two to clarify things...
Alex's medal was downgraded due some very strange circumstances. It is along and tortured tale. In short, incorrect information was used to downgrade it and then that same info was later used by the Navy to show the downgrade was justified.
The saddest part of it is that the original review in 1947 got it right, but the board disolved three days before they made their final decision (as they were going in alphabetical order on ALL medals and V was obviously in the last group)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What's craziest is the man who was head of the board was reassigned before he was able to finalize everything and it got dropped once again.
Vraciu was nominated for FOUR missions. On the Mission Beyond Darkness numerous pilots were awarded Navy Crosses for various things. Vraciu met/exceeded those requirements (he and his wingman engaged upwards of thirty Japanese fighters by themselves defending the dive bombers just prior to striking the Japanese fleet--Alex flamed two). However, his MOH nomination was for a total of FOUR missions. The Fleet Defense alone (six kills in eight minutes) was worthy of a Medal of Honor... But Alex did far more, and his nomination reflected this. By the time the folks involved got through with it everyone focused on the most spectacular of the four missions and forgot the other three.
If a MOH is to be denied then fine, but the other three missions should then be weighed on their own merits. If not a MOH then another Navy Cross.
Alex was also denied numerous other "Strike Flight" medals because everyone at the time felt he "didn't need these because [he was] going to get the 'Big One'."
It is an absolute tragedy. Alex is a fine fine fine man and he was an amazing fighter pilot. If the Army can fix Bruce Crandal's MOH mistake after 40+ years (see "WE WERE SOLDIERS") then the Navy should fix Alex's.
To this day, Alex's Navy Cross citation is riddled with errors. They didn't even get his carrier or squadron right on the initial nomination. If these basic details are wrong can anyone honestly have faith in the process? I for one have none and I am ashamed that the Navy continues to treat one of its great living ambassadors this way.
All the best.
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Originally posted by Frodo
If you read the link closely, you will see he was denied because of a clerical/radio error, from what I understood. That is my reasoning for the medal.
No doubt there are many more that deserve it, that are known, and unknown.
Frodo
I agree with you, and though we sadly cannot fix every error, this is one we can absolutely rectify. We should. Me must.
Your help is greatly appreciated.
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Thank god he wasn't flying a Legacy WSCoD. The Japanese would have had him for lunch along with his sack of rice.
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Anyone know if they every upgraded Dick Winters' Silver Star to a MOH? This one wasn't an error, it was outright politics. :p
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Lots of people should have gotten higher awards and didnt for lots of reasons. Chesty Puller won FIVE Navy Crosses, a couple of those events met the threshold of the MoH but he had political enemies so he got another star for his Navy Cross instead. It happens. The important thing is they did their duty, and we should all be thankful they did.
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Originally posted by Grits
Lots of people should have gotten higher awards and didnt for lots of reasons. Chesty Puller won FIVE Navy Crosses, a couple of those events met the threshold of the MoH but he had political enemies so he got another star for his Navy Cross instead. It happens. The important thing is they did their duty, and we should all be thankful they did.
Sometimes wonder about old Chesty. I remember reading his biography a long time ago. I've been reading a few different books on Peleliu and he didn't score a lot of points getting the 1st Marines essentially wiped out. Seems to be the general consensus that between he and General Rupertus, a lot of Marines died needlessly there.
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Originally posted by Grits
Lots of people should have gotten higher awards and didnt for lots of reasons. Chesty Puller won FIVE Navy Crosses, a couple of those events met the threshold of the MoH but he had political enemies so he got another star for his Navy Cross instead. It happens. The important thing is they did their duty, and we should all be thankful they did.
Alex's was politics, too. But we are trying to keep that out of it. A mistake was made and he's still alive to see it corrected. We can't fix every injustice but we can fix this one. A fine gesture of thanks would be a short visit to the website and a contribution of effort as you see fit...
Every letter helps.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Thank god he wasn't flying a Legacy WSCoD. The Japanese would have had him for lunch along with his sack of rice.
Golfer I'd worry less about the Legacy and more about that fat gut of yours. I've seen uglier men, but not many. :aok WHEW! Lay off the beer man!!!!!!!! ;) LOL!
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Wow...
Blow any APU fire bottles lately?:rolleyes:
I was thinking of Jeff DeBlanc anyway.
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Originally posted by Golfer
Wow...
Blow any APU fire bottles lately?:rolleyes:
Nope. And I don't lose any sleep over a newbie mistake (for those who wonder, I once fired a Baggage Extinguisher on an ERJ thinking I had an APU fire. The buttons are the same and right next to each other. Was a dumb rookie thing having only been on the airplane for two months. I wasn't the first--or the last--to do it. I learned and moved on. Apparently some people haven't. *shrug*).
How about you? Have you received your "World's Only Living Mistake-Free Pilot Award" yet? Didn't think so.
Roll your eyes at someone else there, Mr. Perfect. I doubt you'd roll those at me in person.
I was thinking of Jeff DeBlanc anyway.
At least you were thinking instead of insulting... Keep it civil. Nobody is perfect, not even you.
You've taken your cheap shot. Let's keep this thread on track from here on, please. This is not about me. This is about Alex.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Sometimes wonder about old Chesty. I remember reading his biography a long time ago. I've been reading a few different books on Peleliu and he didn't score a lot of points getting the 1st Marines essentially wiped out. Seems to be the general consensus that between he and General Rupertus, a lot of Marines died needlessly there.
No doubt he performed poorly at Peleliu and Marines died unnecessarily. He had no business staying in command when he was basically delirious from the wound in his thigh, someone should have relieved him but Rupertus didnt do it.
Skull-1 has a good point that Vraciu is still with us and if we can do something about it we should.
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Originally posted by Skull-1
Alex's was politics, too. But we are trying to keep that out of it. A mistake was made and he's still alive to see it corrected. We can't fix every injustice but we can fix this one. A fine gesture of thanks would be a short visit to the website and a contribution of effort as you see fit...
Every letter helps.
Do you think he flew combat for the medals?
Personally I think it's irrelevent. Those of us who pay attention know what kind of pilot he was. And I'd bet he'd say he was just doing his job. Does it matter to him at this point?
I think it's politics to try and change it now. It somehow to me trivializes the job he did and makes it more about celebrity.
Any guy or gal for that matter who sticks his neck out and faces combat deserves far more then any medal we can give them.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Do you think he flew combat for the medals?
Personally I think it's irrelevent. Those of us who pay attention know what kind of pilot he was. And I'd bet he'd say he was just doing his job. Does it matter to him at this point?
I think it's politics to try and change it now. It somehow to me trivializes the job he did and makes it more about celebrity.
Any guy or gal for that matter who sticks his neck out and faces combat deserves far more then any medal we can give them.
He is a personal friend of mine. If you want my honest opinion--AND THIS IS NOT ALEX SPEAKING--I think it does bother him some. He wouldn't say it, but man to man I get the sense it stings. Not the MOH particularly, but that, coupled with the fact the Navy doesn't seem to care enough to even get his citation correct. I think that is a demoralizing thing. It diminishes it all the way around. How can it not hurt?
This is a guy who did everything a lone man could do to win that war. Torpedoed twice, bailed twice, ditched once... Nineteen in the air (was actually 20) and 21 on the ground... Organized guerillas in the Philippines after his final shoot down... Clawed his way back out to the fleet three different times... The Navy owes men like this its faith. Alex has been let down. It has happened to others but that doesn't make it right.
The man flat out takes Pearl Harbor personally to this day and still gets tears in his eyes when he speaks of Butch O'Hare. I think there is that part of him that still wants to live up to Butch--and to get payback for what happened.
Again, speculation on my part. I have had a few glasses of wine and a couple of steaks with the man over the years... He is modest, articulate, and the lion in winter. But I'm sure it feels like a loose end to him, MOH or not.
If the Army can fix Bruce Crandal's situation the Navy can do the same with Alex's. The Army has corrected three Medals of Honor in the past five years. The Navy? Zero that I am aware of.
Obviously it is your right to say, "No thanks, I'm not interested in helping." But please do me the favor of not discouraging others who might be so inclined.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Do you think he flew combat for the medals?
Personally I think it's irrelevent. Those of us who pay attention know what kind of pilot he was. And I'd bet he'd say he was just doing his job. Does it matter to him at this point?
I think it's politics to try and change it now. It somehow to me trivializes the job he did and makes it more about celebrity.
Any guy or gal for that matter who sticks his neck out and faces combat deserves far more then any medal we can give them.
That goes for a guy I met not terribly long ago. Local mega-lo-mart had a sale on digital picture frames. My brother and I wanted to get one as a gift for someone so I went in to pick it up. As I walked in the greeter said hi, had a USMC hat on dotted with a few ribbons. I couldn't tell you what most of them are but I know a few, one of which was for a silver star. It caught my eye and I asked where he received it a short while into our conversation. "Iwo" was his reply.
Is a greeter at walmart the best we can do for them?
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I've never seen the MoH in that way. I.e., you killed x number of enemy, here's your MoH like it is some score in a game.
I've seen it as a reward for going above and beyond the call of duty, putting yourself at risk so that the objective can be taken, so a fellow soldier/sailor/marine/airman doesn't die.
Being really good at your job and doing it with notable success is one of the things that gets you the other medals, but the MoH requires something more than that. To reduce it to just another grade of medal is wrong.
At least in my opinon.
I love reading the acounts of how guys got their MoH or VC and I can't think of many that won those highest of all medals without putting themselves at signficantly greater risk than most of their fellows were doing.
Six kills in one flight is very, very, very good. But was he actually at much more risk than the fighter pilots who were up that day and got no kills?
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Originally posted by Karnak
I've never seen the MoH in that way. I.e., you killed x number of enemy, here's your MoH like it is some score in a game.
I've seen it as a reward for going above and beyond the call of duty, putting yourself at risk so that the objective can be taken, so a fellow soldier/sailor/marine/airman doesn't die.
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Six kills in one flight is very, very, very good. But was he actually at much more risk than the fighter pilots who were up that day and got no kills?
That's precisely the problem regarding this nomination.
He was not nominated for six kills in one flight (though that precedent was established). He was nominated for four missions over roughly eight days and he put himself in extreme peril during at least three of the four.
Everyone is focusing on that one mission and excluding all the others.
The Misison Beyond Darkness on the 20th was alone enough for a Navy Cross (as evidenced by the dozen or so awarded to others who flew that mission only), as he took on half the Japanese fighter cover by himself at one point so the SB2Cs and SBDs could hit the Japanese ships. Alex was nominated for his actions over four missions that included that one, the six in eight minutes (despite intense AA fire from his own ships and a malfunctioning engine), and two others (a masthead attack on a Japanese ship and the destruction of a Betty snooper).
The guy was for lack of a better word a brave as hell "bad ass" fighter pilot. Politics, timing, secretarial errors...all conspired against this nomination. It is not right and should be fixed.
Let us not debate this, please. I think it belittles what the man did.
If you want to help us, please do. If not, thanks for listening
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Originally posted by Golfer
That goes for a guy I met not terribly long ago. Local mega-lo-mart had a sale on digital picture frames. My brother and I wanted to get one as a gift for someone so I went in to pick it up. As I walked in the greeter said hi, had a USMC hat on dotted with a few ribbons. I couldn't tell you what most of them are but I know a few, one of which was for a silver star. It caught my eye and I asked where he received it a short while into our conversation. "Iwo" was his reply.
Is a greeter at walmart the best we can do for them?
That's truly sad. These men did things I could never dream of. We can never repay their efforts, and we are losing them by the hundreds every single day...
This is what I feel I can do to pay them back. I can't repay them all, but I would like to help at least one...
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For those wanting a nicely written summary of the situation take a look here:
http://www.alexvraciu.net/images/Alex-Vraciu-Robbed-of-Medal-McKinlay-1992.gif
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Originally posted by Skull-1
Let us not debate this, please. I think it belittles what the man did.
If you want to help us, please do. If not, thanks for listening
I'm not belittling Alex Vraciu. I knew his story when I was seven years old. It was right there in "Great American Fighter Pilots of WW2" and that's 40 years ago now. I've spent most of my life reading, researching and meeting vets. Does the B24 top turret gunner who despite absolute terror and fear he was going to lose his mind, but who still got in that turret not show the same courage? I know a guy like that. he went down on his 13th mission. He said if he hadn't been shot down he'd probably have gone mad. As it was he had to endure 7 of his crewmates killed and time in a POW camp.
Golfer mentions Iwo. How many of those guys never saw any sort of recognition.
How bout the Marines on Tarawa or Pelielu? How bout those guys who never made it across all those beaches? How bout those pilots who didn't come back?
It just feels a bit like American Idol to me. Get enough votes and you get the medal. We have to go back and look at all of them if we're going to start changing things 60 + years later.
And it misses the point.
I remember meeting Jimmy Swett years ago at an airshow. He got the MoH on the Canal for shooting down 7 Japanese planes. I happened to catch him walking among the planes and I got my courage up to say hello and thank him. He was about the most humble unassuming person I'd ever met. He said the medal he got was for the guys who didn't make it back not for him. He almost felt guilty for having it.
Alex Vraciu is a hero. No medal is going to make him more or less of one to me.
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Originally posted by Frodo
http://www.alexvraciu.net/#Vraciu
Pulled this from another board, and found it interesting. Does he deserve it? I vote yes.
Read the details of the missions!
Frodo
I'm sorry, but what did he do to deserve the CMoH? The site doesn't say much except that he shot down 6 dive bombers. That hardly qualifies him for your nation's highest award ... or?
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Originally posted by Viking
I'm sorry, but what did he do to deserve the CMoH? The site doesn't say much except that he shot down 6 dive bombers. That hardly qualifies him for your nation's highest award ... or?
Read the nomination.
This is exactly the problem with the entire nomination process and why this thing is stuck in limbo. Everyone gets hung up on that one mission.
Read the entire thing and you will see. Vraciu was nominated for four missions not one...
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Originally posted by Guppy35
It just feels a bit like American Idol to me. Get enough votes and you get the medal. We have to go back and look at all of them if we're going to start changing things 60 + years later.
The Navy attempted to in 1947. They effectively never finished Vraciu's...and each time they've made a half-hearted attempt they got it wrong. Seems to me we owe it to all of them to pick up where things left off. If we can fix Alex's we can fix others, too.
The Army went back further than 60 years in some cases and did the right thing. The Navy can do the same. The time frame doesn't matter, nor should it.
I'm not going to discuss this further because I feel like I'm trivializing the man's accomplishments. I don't for a second think any of us can say someone doesn't deserve a particular award. That being said...
Admirals Buie, Snowden, Litch, Mitscher, Spruance, Radford, and Clark all felt the award was earned. Considering all of them were there when it happened I defer to their judgment.
If you don't care to help that's your right. This is for those who do.
Thanks to the OP for pointing out the site. Please help by writing your elected officials. More information will be added to the site so keep checking back. I have a large stack of stuff to transfer to it--it will take awhile to scan it all in.
Regards...
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Originally posted by Saxman
Anyone know if they every upgraded Dick Winters' Silver Star to a MOH? This one wasn't an error, it was outright politics. :p
If you read the book, Band of Brothers ( by Stephen E. Ambrose), you'll find out that Maj. Richard Winters was awarded the DSC for his actions on D-Day, when he and twelve other men captured a battery of four 105mm cannon that was firing on the men that were coming ashore on Utah beach. Four of Winters' men were awarded the Silver Star (Compton, Guarnere, Lorraine, and Toye) the others were given the Bronze Star (Lipton, Malarkey, Ranney, Liebgott, Hendrix, Plesha, Petty, and Wynn). Col. Sink(the CO of the 506th PIR) tried to give Winters the CMoH but only one man per division was allowed to be given that medal for the invasion.
The fact that Winters wasn't given the CMoH was just because Lt. Col. Robert Cole recieved it before Winters for leading a bayonet charge.
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Originally posted by OSU
If you read the book, Band of Brothers ( by Stephen E. Ambrose), you'll find out that Maj. Richard Winters was awarded the DSC for his actions on D-Day, when he and twelve other men captured a battery of four 105mm cannon that was firing on the men that were coming ashore on Utah beach. Four of Winters' men were awarded the Silver Star (Compton, Guarnere, Lorraine, and Toye) the others were given the Bronze Star (Lipton, Malarkey, Ranney, Liebgott, Hendrix, Plesha, Petty, and Wynn). Col. Sink(the CO of the 506th PIR) tried to give Winters the CMoH but only one man per division was allowed to be given that medal for the invasion.
The fact that Winters wasn't given the CMoH was just because Lt. Col. Robert Cole recieved it before winters for leading a bayonet charge.
Amazing isn't it??? Winters was a brave sonostudmuffinun, no question about it. All of those guys were.
Winters is still with us is he not? That's a petition I'd sign anytime, anywhere.
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Yes, Winters is still alive. If you watch the Band of Brothers movie, you can see him in the special features and some of the men I mentioned in my post at the begining of the episodes.