Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on April 28, 2006, 07:32:52 PM
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Why was any time at all wasted in putting worthless stuff in the game?
The Ta-152 is a fantastic example of a plane that never should have been put in. It is a horrible POS, AND it is perked, like to add insult to injury or something.
The M8. Whats the point? A .50 caliber bullet will take your turret out, to say nothing of an actual tank shell. But you get to drive really really fast! Until an M3 sees you, and kills you. Then you get to drive back really really fast.
At least most of the "hangar queens" are almost competitive. Human nature being what it is, 2nd best doesn't count for a whole lot, but they can ALMOST hold their own.
I'm convinced that **** like the M8 and 152 were put in the game just to frustrate people who like to try to make ****ty stuff work. Some stuff you can get to work, those 2 examples in particular sit unused for good reason. A kid on a tricycle could kill an M8 with a halfheartedly thrown rock. Put the same kid in a large paper airplane and he could kill Ta-152s all day.
Stupid.
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Agreed on both, but you'll get a couple people on here who can make both of those things work for them. I've lost a Tiger to a friggin M-8 before and got into a nice low-level turn fight with a TA and a Spit once. Course the Ta was just buzzing and zooming away every minute or so. When I waxed his friend he hauled ace.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'm convinced that **** like the M8 and 152 were put in the game just to frustrate people who like to try to make ****ty stuff work.
Looks like it's working:p
I agree though, also the 152 shouldn't be perked.
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Actually I like the M8 for taking out campers with its quick R.O.F.
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LOL yup.
Esp on the Ta152. What a POS. Good thing its perked. Its a god down low where MOST of the action is anyways. errr wait
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I will defend the M-8. Tonight I took it from A18 to A19 and drive it on the field. There was a tiger sitting there so I drive right up to it and start pegging it. About 7 rounds later I get the kill on it.
I also take it to TT for fun and also do pot shots at low level aircraft strafing me with the 37mm. I enjoy it
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yeah
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Well seeing as how any GV can be killed by any other GV if you get close enough ( the bug I'm refering too ) & the TA-152 was a buff killer & it is good at that in AH I don't see the problem. I personally don't like the TA-152 or the M-8 but that's beside the point.
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Just because they are not good in MA doesnt mean they dont have their place, imho if it had a place in history its worth it to have in a sim for historical scenarios. Combat Tour for example. I cant do crap in the ta 152 either, from many accounts it was a good plane, maybe it needs some flight modeling attention from htc.
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The TA 152 is uber if you have some speed i meen i took out 3 temps with it only to be jumped by 5 from like 10k above me thats when your screwed.
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Originally posted by eilif
maybe it needs some flight modeling attention from htc.
:aok
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maybe it needs some flight modeling attention from htc
Like the attention the 38 got? LMFAO!!! They can keep their attention to themselves.
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The 152 is great to take to Tank Town for some kill stealing action :D
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I thought I was the only one who had trouble in the 152.:lol
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Challange yourself
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Originally posted by Meatwad
I will defend the M-8. Tonight I took it from A18 to A19 and drive it on the field. There was a tiger sitting there so I drive right up to it and start pegging it. About 7 rounds later I get the kill on it.
I also take it to TT for fun and also do pot shots at low level aircraft strafing me with the 37mm. I enjoy it
I will have to take your word for it. I take an M-8 from time to time going for the mobility rather than brute force. It is good for getting onto the enemy base and vulching planes trying to take off. How you killed a tiger with it I will never know. My last encounter with a tiger while in an M-8 resulted in a loss of ammo and eventually my gv. I got position directly behind the tiger and had him dead to rights. He tried running and started back toward his base. I followed behind using my manueverability to my advantage was was firing repeatedly near point blank right into his rear (where I thought armor was softer.) After about 12 to 15 hits directly on the rear of the tank, I figured, **lightbulb comes on** "must not be working". So I continued to maneuver around the rear and side as the tiger fled and fired into tracks at near point blank range. I must have hit the tracks at least 10 more times to no effect. By this time the Tiger had managed to get back to his base border, where an auto field ack began firing and wiped me out with one ping. He got the credit for the proxy kill.
So if there is a trick to using the M-8 for anything other than runway camping, I would sure like to know and would appreciate any hints. (besides don't drive one. LOL)
NCLawMan
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M8 is good for sneaking up on a Panzer and shooting him in the butt. One or two rounds will take out his turret. I would have to see film of a M8 killing a Tiger straight up before I believe it. No offense Meat.
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I have to see if I got a film of it. I think what it was he despawned. I was pinging him and there were a few other friendly panzers on the field. No explosion, just dissapeared.
He wasnt on concrete so maybe he just got unlucky and despawned and I just happen to get the kill
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* The Ta-152 is a fantastic *
In AH is very unstable when in fact was the oposite.
Faster than tempest and better turning ability in the whole speed spectrum.
Just study his wing.
Here is a mess. The Best WWII Fighter.
The final cut before the jets era.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Actually I like the M8 for taking out campers with its quick R.O.F.
Maybe if the camper is a moron and sits within 50 yards of the spawn. If he is smart and sits 1000 or so yards away, the M8 can't hurt him. So you'll fire off 3 or 4 harmless shells if he misses with his first shot, maybe only 2 if he hits you with the first.
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in the DA one time, Wolfala and myself did a little test. I sat on the runway in a tiger, and he tried to shoot me from 100 yrds range with the M8 AP rounds. after the entire magazine on the M8 was depleted i was missing both tracks and nothing more. then again the damage model is weaker in the DA.
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The M8 and the T-34 have no realistic chance at killing a Tiger. Actually, the M8 doesn't have any chance at all, no matter what the range/angle.
The T-34 can kill a Tiger, if the Tiger sits absolutely still, and the T-34 gets inside of 100 yards and hits the exact same "face" of the turret 3 times. If you are more than a couple degrees off 90 the shots will all ricochet off.
The T-34 is another good example of a worthless piece of equipment that shouldn't have been introduced.
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I'm not going to re-hash the bug in detail but it's there & you can kill a tiger with a jeep. ( so an M-8 should work as well )
I will add this though, I read somewhere when I was a kid of a Stuart light tank killing a Tiger with 37MM AP or HE ( don't remember which ) I'm sure he had to have been at optimal range for maximum velocity & kinetic energy, & I'm sure he hit a "sweet spot" like a hatch or something. It may have even been the WWII equivalent of an urban legend.
One of my uncles ( my granny had 13 kids mostly boys who served in WWII & Korea ) who was in Korea said he had talked to some fellow marines who were tankers & there was a rumor among the tank crews of a Chinese sniper who would fire down the barrel of a tank when the breech was open & hit the HE shell to kill the crew.
Now-now....settle down, before you fire off your flames I just want to add I don't believe any such thing ever happened. I wasn't there & have no idea, I know the snipers had everyone worried all the time, & apparently even the tank crews got in on the paranoia.
I just mention this in passing because of pride, I had a great uncle in the Pacific in WWII who won two bronze stars & a silver star for bravery. What I really liked about that guy was he didn't clam up when you asked him about his experiences; he would talk for hours!:aok
*edited for spelling
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Originally posted by Hades55
* The Ta-152 is a fantastic *
In AH is very unstable when in fact was the oposite.
Faster than tempest and better turning ability in the whole speed spectrum.
Just study his wing.
Here is a mess. The Best WWII Fighter.
The final cut before the jets era.
I disagree... At low level, where most of the combat takes place in the MA, the Ta 152H is out of its element. It's a high alt bird in an environment where low altitude performance is paramount. Within that context, the 152H is nearly useless.
If you're thinking about the Ta 152C, then we could say it would be competitive down low. But, none of those were produced beyond a handful of prototypes.
I agree with Urchin that the 152H is basically worthless for the MA. Especially since it's a one-dimensional aircraft, unlike the P-47N which is a also monster up high and a very capable fighter-bomber as well.
My regards,
Widewing
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Yea, I've heard of the Stuart killing a Tiger as well, during the Battle of the Bulge.
As far as I know, the Stuart disabled the engine, I'm not exactly certain how. Maybe the Tiger had a grill or something on the back that the shell could've gone through.
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Originally posted by Hades55
* The Ta-152 is a fantastic *
In AH is very unstable when in fact was the oposite.
Faster than tempest and better turning ability in the whole speed spectrum.
Just study his wing.
Here is a mess. The Best WWII Fighter.
The final cut before the jets era.
The Ta-152H *is* faster than a Tempest. The only problem is that the altitude at which the 152 is faster is worthless in AH and the Temp's sweet spot is optimal for MA fights.
I'm curious tho.. where did you get the idea the 152 should be very stable?
The accounts i've read quote the stability as "acceptable" and in the context of the test report "acceptable" did sound like they actually meant "not very good".
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It's meant for high altitude buff slaughtering & it's very good at it. I mean look at the thing; it's like a freakin u-2 with cannons. It's not meant for low alt turn fights...in that role it does suck.
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i like the ta152...i think its very stable and does 300 mph nicely ..holding its e well at low alt...hell like 70 rounds of 30mm and 200 20mm? i guess its undermodeled as compared to rl but are any of the flight models realistic? its a picker though which bores me
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[ANECDOTE ALERT]
Here's what Reschke writes about the Ta-152 in his book (p 21, chapter nine, 'Into action with the Ta-152'):
My initial impressions:
Acceleration was so great on take-off that one's body was pressed against the back of the seat.
The Ta lifted off after only a few hundred meters.
Initial climb rate was enormous.
I had never flown an aircraft with such a tremendous wingspan.
Control forces appeared to be good.
All-round view from and freedom of movement in the cockpit were also good.
The landing speed was rather lower and thus unfamiliar.
First Impressions of the Ta 152...
...Even when taxiing one got a sense of the tremendous power produced by the Jumo 213 E. Pushing the throttle forward resulted in tremendous acceleration which pressed one hard against the seat back. The force was such that pilots were hesistant to apply full power for the first few take-offs. The aircraft lifted off effortlessly at 210 km/h after a short take-off run. One scarcely noticed the retraction of the undercarriage and flaps. This was a big difference from other versions of the Fw 190, which sagged noticeably when the flaps were raised. The enormous thrust of the propeller with its broad 60cm blades and the great wingspan were positively noticeable. Rate of climb was 17.5 m/s to a height of 5,000 meters. It took twelve minutes to reach a height of 10,000 meters, which was equivalent to an average rate of climb of 14.2 m/s.
...At an altitude of 10,000 meters the Ta 152 reacted perfectly to control inputs, by comparison at that height the Fw 190A-8 was already unstable and reacted rather sluggishly to control inputs. Not until a height of 12,000 meters did one feel the that the limit of performance of had been reached.
During the conversion program comparison flights were carried out with the Gruppe's remaining Fw 190A-8s, with mock combats playing a prominent role. This provided an opportunity to test the performance capabilities of the Ta 152 and to see if this aircraft was really as good as was claimed. These mock combats repeatedly showed that the Ta 152 was much superior in a dogfight. Especially at heights from 6,000 to 8,000 meters, where most fighter combat took place, one had the impression that the Ta 152 could turn on the spot.
Combat with Tempests:
The Tempest was known as a very fast aircraft, with which the English had been able to catch and shoot down the V 1. In this engagement, however, speed played a less important role: at low level an aircraft's maneuverability was more important. As I approached, my opponent pulled up from a low level attack and I attacked out of a left hand turn.
Both pilots realized that this was a fight to the finish, and from the outset both used every tactical and piloting ploy in an attempt to gain an advantage. At that height neither could afford to make a mistake, and for the first time I was able to see what the Ta 152 could really do.
Twisting and turning, never more then 50 meters above the ground, I closed range on the Tempest. At no time did I get the feeling that my machine had reached the limit of its performance. The tempest pilot quite understandably had to undertake risky maneuvers to avoid a fatal burst from my guns. As my Ta 152 closed in on the Tempest, I could see it was on the verge of rolling the other way: an indication that it could not turn any tighter. The first burst from my guns struck the Tempest in the rear fuselage and tail. The Tempest pilot reacted by immediately flicking his aircraft into a right-hand turn, which increased my advantage even further. There was no escape for the Tempest now. I pressed the firing buttons again, but my guns remained silent. Recharging the them did no good: my guns refused to fire even a single shot. I can't remember whom I cursed at that moment. Luckily the Tempest pilot was unaware of my bad luck, for he had already had a sample. He continued to twist and turn, and I positioned my Ta 152 so that he always had a view pf my machines belly. Then came the moment when the Tempest went into a high-speed stall: it rolled left and crashed into a wood. This combat was certainly unique, having been played out at heights which were often just 10 meters above the trees and rooftops. Throughout I never had the feeling that my Ta 152 had reached its performance limit, instead it reacted to the slightest input control, even though we were practically at ground level.
Reschke also recounts combat over / near Berlin with Yak-9s. Reschke was able to out maneuver them and get behind them. He shot number 4 down. 2 Yak-9s escaped while Reschke engaged number one and shot it down as well stating: 'his Yak 9was hopelessly inferior to my Ta 152'. This was Reschke's last combat of the war.
[/ANECDOTE ALERT]
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Sounds a lot like our 152.
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:lol
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If you were to let Reschke model our TA-152 it would certainly be worth the perkies.:D It sounds to me like it could use a little more power & handling upgrades in the MA. I had always been under the impression it was for high alt. B-17 & B-24 butchering not tangling with other fighters.
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The TA-152 rocks....this is one of the FEW rides HTC perked right. At least it's PERKED unlike a few that without question should be perked. Example:Spit16 and Lghey. For the love of God how much longer is this insanity going to go on. I realize that some people wouldn't land any kills if they couldn't drive one of these but come on. Lghey should have IMO a 20perk and spit16 a 15 or so. If the Tempy is perked these two DEFINATELY should be. Btw 90% of the people that argue this point either fly them or walk around wearing a helmet and cowboy boots and have the nickname "corky". Heck I fly the pony alot and some think it should be perked. I wouldn't scream if they did unless it was way to high. I could see maybe a 10-15 perk for it just because lack of cannon's and vulnerability to ack.(which is correctly modeled IMO)
The 152 is a great ride once you get it up to speed (which seems to take forever) and other then the occassional unrecoverable spin that I seem to have a nack for getting it in I like it.
Bucky:D
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There was a post-war flight test on a Ta152H. They didn't have any MW50 or whatever the WEP additives were, so they ran it "dry". Even with OUT boost the test pilot said it had a competitive climb rate compared to a spit22 (spit 20-something, it was a recon version I think).
So... without WEP... in AH..... we get 2200fpm.
What?!?!? That's less than a P40!!!!!!! 1945's best aircraft, top-of-the-line, strongest engine possible, largest wings possible, and 2200fpm climb rate?!?!
I think AH has bogus climb on this puppy. And the acceleration kinda sucks too.
In AH it takes the 109K-4 a few seconds short of 10 minutes to reach 30k. The 109K-4 is arguably one of the BEST climbers in the game. I tested it once in comparison to the p47N. You can run WEP the entire time and reach 30k just before you run out.
I don't want to imagine how long it would take a ta152 to get to 30k. It has abyssmal performance at most alts.
Regardless I don't think it's "useless" as urchin says. I think it's poorly modeled. I see this as the reason why it wasn't redone with the 190s -- possible FM do-over in the works somewhere down the line [*speculation alert!*]
Had we the 190D-13 or -11 or whichever version had 30mm I'd fly that more. Had we the Ta152C-0 I'd ONLY fly that (underpowered or no!). But as it is, the 152H is my fav perk ride. Perhaps because it is harder to fly. Perhaps because I like the 30mm. Who knows.
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i remember reading that ancedote about the TA over 3 years ago and thinking WTF? in the MA the TA can not hold its own with the tempest. then i thought it was just i myself wasn't good enough to do it. i still am not good enough, but i think more and more noone will be "good enough"
as far as the M8, i remember a time when it was used quite a bit in the MA, back 2-3 years ago before the tiger.
2 hits on the back of a panzer, pop it was dead. i remember fester zooming around poping people in it, and others too. also on ndisles map 45 --> 46 that VH on that island, people would spawn M8's by the dozen, and take out the hangars / ack fast
with any changes to the ballistics and penetration of gun types, i don't knwo how effective the M8 is anymore, but it did have it's day.
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i like the ta for high flying buff killin
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i disagree..The ta152 is the best 190 varient..well most fun(Dora beats it in 1 vs 1)
It turns better than A5/A8(my opinion)..Great for buff formations(any alt)..Great vulcher..Excellant range & WEP.
it's cheaper than a CHOG
opponents don't know what to make of U
Uber guns(poor mans 110g2)
The wings rip(oops went too far..lol)
Has very good evade speed..
You can do the FW twist when in trouble..
It's a bloody fun plane to ride...!
I don't get why HTC didn't update the 152's cockpit though(it is an updated FW..no..?)
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152 looks verry good and sleek.
Lots of ammo in big guns, not bad at all !
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Originally posted by Mustaine
i remember reading that ancedote about the TA over 3 years ago and thinking WTF? in the MA the TA can not hold its own with the tempest. then i thought it was just i myself wasn't good enough to do it. i still am not good enough, but i think more and more noone will be "good enough"
Actually at altitude it does great. I fought a temp in a 152H and dragged him from 18k to 25k. He was behind me but I was able to climb better so I dragged him into a shallow climb and he got closer and closer, but was below me. So I did a nose high stalling set of scissors, he was trying to follow but didn't have the wingspan or engine power to keep up, so he eventually floundered and I got a snapshot on the extreme of 1 scissor, and saw the red fireball. I knew a 30mm had hit so I leveled out and got my speed up. I banked and looked back, saw him falling to the ground without a wing.
I got that on film too.
At altitude it does well. Not great. I still think a tempest owns it in 90% of occasions.
P.S. Tempest is faster than ta152 except for a power band dip (dip? More like a sheer drop) between 10k and 15k. The 152 is faster above 25k, but then who cares? You really can't do anything up at 30k.
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I found the TA to be quite potent in AH 1 especially once the wing tanks were empty. I clearly remember totally chewing up Mustangs OTD in an angles fight, I wouldnt even consider that in AH 2 with the 152.
I dont think the flight model of the 152 was changed for AH 2. Perhaps its just the changed physics of AH 2 that make it feel so much different.
It really is to bad. For a while I really enjoyed that bird. I find it to be nothing short of no fun now a days.
Dave
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And when ur rad get's hit it glides home to base very nicely too..:aok
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On the M8 - http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=159920&highlight=sbct
And my experience in a repost on the M-8. I love it, and hate it btw.
I was up at Tank Town - Cyclic was sitting at the south east field in an M3 hiding. I had no way to get to his position, so I brought out the M-8 and drove there. Took a little while - didn't know that sucker could do 60 though.
Long story short, I get to the base, and start raising hell and drawing attention to myself. 2 panzers pop out and try to wack me and fail. Cyclic gets his troops in the back door and eventually the tanks die.
Fast forward 20 minutes. Some wiseguy is near 27 and we have no idea where. Just occasionally some shells are landing in the hanger area where Cyclic is in a panzer, another guy in a panzer, and myself in the M-8. So I roll out into the tree line listening for the sounds of engine or the report of cannon.
Eventually after about 15 minutes I get vectored in the correct direction of the shots. Rolling up the hill at about 35 mph between some mounds a few shots land short of me. I jink the car left and Cyclic and the other guy put fire into the area the Panzer is shooting from. I work around the left side of the guy, maybe 500 meters west of him, circle around the bellybutton end of him. He's camped out behind a berm with his gun focused down the hill. 3 shots of 37mm right into his pooper - and BLAM!
That was satisfying. Then I think about the current transition to the SBCT up at Fort Lewis and start thinking to myself. I'm basically going toe to toe with a T-72 in a Stryker, standing practically no chance of denting him in a conventional way. Deep down I feel like to kill this guy i'm sticking my dick inside of a hornets nest. And the only reason this guy died was b/c I got the heavier armor to distract his bellybutton long enough for me to plug him at point blank before he knew I was there.
I don't know if that sits very well with me in the whole realm of the DOD transformation and SBCT transition to lighter armor.
Wolfala
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M8 can be very effective if you know what you are doing. Got to use it's strengths to your advantage.
JMFJ
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If I did my job what would you complain about!
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Ta 152 has to be the hardest plane to land/rearm...Any tips on how to safely down this beast?
It seems to have pogo sticks for oleo legs..(Bouncy bouncy...wingtip strike.../.ef)
Way harder than a CHOG on final.
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Keep the taxi speed SLOOOOW, and hold back pressure on your stick to lock the tail-wheel