Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mustaine on May 01, 2006, 02:52:35 PM
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at a small business that employees legal minorities of whatever race or creed, and they just no-showed to take part in a protest like today, what would you do?
me personally, I'd fire them.
I don't care what the cause, you just don't not go into work as a protest. thats called quitting in my mind. if some dumb protest is more important than going to work you are hurting your employer too.
I was just wondering in this case if you were the boss what would you do? say it is your own little family business, maybe 10 employees, and 2 don't show because of this?
in a similar situation, you are a manager in a large corporation, 50,000 emplyoees nationwide +... do you let this disruptive behavior procede, leave the door open to anyone just not showing up?
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Depends on what the small business does. Is the guy a craftsman that cost you a few hundred dollars? Is he your top outside sales guy, that even missing a day, who puts $10,000 net in your pocket at the end of the month? Can they take existing business with them?
Unfortunately, owning a small business means sometimes your wallet (and by extension, your family & obligations) has to come before your view on a political matter.
Anyways, that's the other side of the coin.
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I'd consider that day closed for business. Have Donuts and coffee waiting for them the the next morning.
An employee morally supported by their boss is a hard working employee.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'd consider that day closed for business. Have Donuts and coffee waiting for them the the next morning.
An employee morally supported by their boss is a hard working employee.
LOL.. Don't you mean you would investigate the cost of that employee against the output and quality of their work, then decide if it would be better to outsource their job to an overseas worker who would do the same job cheaper, so that you could convince your boss and the share-holders that your saving them money and getting better quality?
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Originally posted by Midnight
LOL.. Don't you mean you would investigate the cost of that employee against the output and quality of their work, then decide if it would be better to outsource their job to an overseas worker who would do the same job cheaper, so that you could convince your boss and the share-holders that your saving them money and getting better quality?
Possibly, since outsourcing creates MORE jobs (http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/30/news/economy/outsourcing/)[/b]. ;)
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Originally posted by Mustaine
at a small business that employees legal minorities of whatever race or creed, and they just no-showed to take part in a protest like today, what would you do?
Well, if their already leagal ... i am assumming you meant legal then they have no valid reason to protest for the rights of illegals.
Other than that, it is too difficult to say what one would do, because it would depend on how many workers didn't come to work, how important their work was to daily operations, and what the worker's employment history with the company was.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'd consider that day closed for business. Have Donuts and coffee waiting for them the the next morning.
An employee morally supported by their boss is a hard working employee.
Ripsnort wins.
There's a Mexican restaurant here in town. The workers are not leaving work today, but the doors are closed and the store is not open to business in support of the marches. But, the employees are there and they're working... AND they are here legally.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Possibly, since outsourcing creates MORE jobs (http://money.cnn.com/2004/03/30/news/economy/outsourcing/). ;) [/B]
Rip... you must be one of the brain-washed corporate yes-men that believe that crap. Businesses that are trying to cut costs by sending $20/hr jobs over-seas are not all the sudden going to come up with NEW jobs to pay MORE money to the same American worker at the same standard or pay-range that they had prior to the original job getting out-sourced.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Well, if their already leagal ... i am assumming you meant legal then they have no valid reason to protest for the rights of illegals.
Other than that, it is too difficult to say what one would do, because it would depend on how many workers didn't come to work, how important their work was to daily operations, and what the worker's employment history with the company was.
Yes legal, as in legalized citizens of the United States. Either immigrated, or born in, does not matter.
That’s basically the point of the question. The news media is telling these stories about business closing today because of employees not showing up.
Work history, quality of work, whatever, in my personal life that has never meant a free "get out of work" day. I have known people who have been fired for no-call no-show, both in small places like restaurants, and in the big global company I work for now.
I can say this, right now the client i work for loves me, my boss loves the work I do, I got a double bonus raise this year, and everything is great... but if I were to no-call no-show for anything other than a death of an immediate family member or my own death I’d be out on the street.
Us giving in to, and allowing behavior like this just promotes inequalities and skewed views of the workplace and the workforce.
It’s kind of like the tattle tale little brother syndrome sadly, but i ask why should they get away with this when I can't?
If "changes" are made because of this kind of protest, what will it encourage in the future? Will these people ever be a consistent contributor to the workforce?
Today’s world seems to be the ultimate reality of “no consequences for your actions”. It saddens me what society has become sometimes.
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In most places I've worked, if you don't show up and you don't call in and give a valid reason for not being there, your fired on the spot. No questions.
But on the other hand, if the employees have vacation days available and they go through proper channels to get the day off, then they can do whatever they want on their own time, whether you agree with it or not.
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
In most places I've worked, if you don't show up and you don't call in and give a valid reason for not being there, your fired on the spot. No questions.
But on the other hand, if the employees have vacation days available and they go through proper channels to get the day off, then they can do whatever they want on their own time, whether you agree with it or not.
exactly, i have no problem with that. their day off, fine....
what i am talking about is the thoughts that i had reading the headline "Immigrants walk off jobs in boycott"
I am talking about a concious decision to ignore your job, as part of the "protest"
grounds for termination immediatly IMHO.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
exactly, i have no problem with that. their day off, fine....
what i am talking about is the thoughts that i had reading the headline "Immigrants walk off jobs in boycott"
I am talking about a concious decision to ignore your job, as part of the "protest"
grounds for termination immediatly IMHO.
Agreed. You walk off the job, don't ever come back.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
exactly, i have no problem with that. their day off, fine....
what i am talking about is the thoughts that i had reading the headline "Immigrants walk off jobs in boycott"
I am talking about a concious decision to ignore your job, as part of the "protest"
grounds for termination immediatly IMHO.
Agreed. They contracted to work x number of hours on y schedule for z amount of salary. No work, no pay and no valid excuse for missing work, no job. Attending a protest rally to boycott a job is not a valid reason. You protest on your time, not the companies.
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They would be fired and then replaced with actual americans
What would happen if all us real americans decided to not work/shop, etc for a day in protest for DEPORTING illegals. Something may get done then
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Originally posted by Midnight
Rip... you must be one of the brain-washed corporate yes-men that believe that crap. Businesses that are trying to cut costs by sending $20/hr jobs over-seas are not all the sudden going to come up with NEW jobs to pay MORE money to the same American worker at the same standard or pay-range that they had prior to the original job getting out-sourced.
Midnight, you must be one of the brain-washed over-paid union types that claim you're not getting paid enough yet produce much less than your European counter-parts. ;) I'm guessing you didn't even read that article, did you Midnight?
Seriously, speaking in my little world of outsourcing, we couldn't hire qualified personal fast enough to test the applications we support. By outsourcing that work when our plate got full, we filled the niche AND hired more people to manage those contractors we outsourced to. In other words, we not only have been making schedule on our ever-increasing test schedules, but we're creating more jobs both overseas and here in the U.S. The other option was to put buggy software into engineering production.
Another big problem in our department is, folks usually use our group as a way point onto other jobs due to the Tedious , repetitiousness of testing software applications. Frankly, people get bored. We pay good money to do this job, but pretty soon one gets real bored (thus my transition to PM).
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As a former small business owner here's my take, you blow it off. Employees miss a day of work for 1000's of reasons. If you fire them unjustly, you are on the hook for unemployment and possibly open yourself to a lawsuit. Just because you are not a supporter of the reason they missed work you should not fire them unless it becomes a recurring thing, i.e. missing several days without a doctor's excuse.
I had a female employee try to claim a back injury several days after the alleged injury. We do not have workman's compensation coverage and did not pay her doctor visit because she failed to follow the rules and report the injury immediately and give us the opportunity to take her to the clinic where she would have been given a drug test before treatment. She decided to retalliate by missing 1 day a week without any notice. After the third week of this I fired her. She tried to claim unemployment but it was denied because she had created a pattern of missing work. Worst employee I ever had.
You have to pick your battles, this is an unwise one.
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Originally posted by indy007
Depends on what the small business does. Is the guy a craftsman that cost you a few hundred dollars? Is he your top outside sales guy, that even missing a day, who puts $10,000 net in your pocket at the end of the month? Can they take existing business with them?
Unfortunately, owning a small business means sometimes your wallet (and by extension, your family & obligations) has to come before your view on a political matter.
Anyways, that's the other side of the coin.
Somthing tells me indy007 owns or has owned a business, this would apply to any employee.
shamus
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http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/formsfee/forms/i-9.htm
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If I dont show for work, Im written up and/or canned
Seems if someone is of a certain color, creed or citizenship status shouldnt make a difference. That's reverse discrimination.
I just dont wanna hear how these folks cant feed their own cuz they skipped work
And if they wanna march, go march on home...from whereever they snuck in from.
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Another reason why I work alone. We need a few more Ebeneezer Scrooge types to make people appreciate the jobs that they are allowed to fill. Too many think its their job.
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i'm going to boycott taco bell.
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Originally posted by john9001
i'm going to boycott taco bell.
lol...I wonder how many Americans will actually do so.
Here a pic of Glen Bell, the founder of Taco Bell:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/257_1146531450_gbell.jpg)
"Bell grew up on a Depression-era homestead in the San Bernardino area, where his family produced milk, vegetables, fruit and eggs. Along with his five brothers and sisters, he played in and learned to appreciate the countryside. Although he later became successful in business, Bell never forgot his love of the outdoors. While his vision for Bell Gardens began several years before it came to fruition, it took Bell a while to find the right venue for his dream. Curious by nature, Bell is always on the lookout for the unusual."
Sounds like a "good old boy" to me.
He retired and sold the management (at least) to PRI (Pepsi) which is a publically listed company.
It is essentially a good "American" business.
Boycotting it is really kind of funny, in a way.
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I figure if I want to protest something by not going to work, then they can fire me. I'll go get the job vacated by one of the other protesters and my old boss can hire him to fill my old slot. Someone will certainly learn a valuable lesson from that one. :D
Personally, I dont condone the work boycott, but if I was one of the protesters, thats how I'd probably see it.
If I were the boss, I'd be pissed. Doubt I'd fire anyone over it though.
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four guys showed up today. we did maintenance on the equipment in the morning then we ordered pizza and drank beer until 3:30. the others will be back tomorrow to hear of a really easy day from four hung over dudes who's paycheck won't be eight hours short this week.
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Hey Storch, can I come work for you?
I'm good at the beer thing.
Where do I send my resume?
cheers,
RTR;)
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Curval, that was a joke, i thought you brits had a sense of humor.
:)
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Originally posted by rpm
As a former small business owner here's my take, you blow it off. Employees miss a day of work for 1000's of reasons. If you fire them unjustly, you are on the hook for unemployment and possibly open yourself to a lawsuit. Just because you are not a supporter of the reason they missed work you should not fire them unless it becomes a recurring thing, i.e. missing several days without a doctor's excuse.
You have to pick your battles, this is an unwise one.
If they are illegal you have no obligation to keep them. Plus here in Indiana if they are not a contract person you can fire them for no reason.
So for me if you don't come to work out of protest of my country's attempt at protecting our borders then you might as well not come back.
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Originally posted by john9001
Curval, that was a joke, i thought you brits had a sense of humor.
:)
I knew you were joking...which is why I put the "lol" in at the start of my post. I did "lol".
I honestly do wonder how many other Americans would actually boycott Taco Bell though...it wasn't aimed at you.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Midnight, you must be one of the brain-washed over-paid union types that claim you're not getting paid enough yet produce much less than your European counter-parts. ;) I'm guessing you didn't even read that article, did you Midnight?
Sorry, but I do not work in a Union, I actually despise most of them (you can search my forum posts in regards to unions). I work at a small company (less than 20 employees) and I think I get paid plenty.
I read about half of the article, and it basically is summarizing some study about new jobs that are suppsedly being or going to be created by 2008.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Seriously, speaking in my little world of outsourcing, we couldn't hire qualified personal fast enough to test the applications we support. By outsourcing that work when our plate got full, we filled the niche AND hired more people to manage those contractors we outsourced to.
Do you really expect people to believe that with all of the out-of-work tech support and software engineers in the US, you couldn't find enough qualified to do the work here? What's the qualification; willing to work for below poverty wages or software testing experience?
Then you want people to believe that because you hired out-sourced people, you then hired even more local people to manage them? Why couldn't the local people do the out-sourced job in the first place? If they are qualified to manage the ones doing it, shouldn't they be qualified to do the job, or do you hire managers that don't know the job people working under them are doing? If they don't know the job themselves, how can they manage?
Originally posted by Ripsnort
In other words, we not only have been making schedule on our ever-increasing test schedules, but we're creating more jobs both overseas and here in the U.S. The other option was to put buggy software into engineering production.
Please elaborate. For conversation sake, say you sent 500 software testing jobs over-seas. What new jobs, and how many, were created here in the US for the 500 Americans to fill?
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Another big problem in our department is, folks usually use our group as a way point onto other jobs due to the Tedious , repetitiousness of testing software applications. Frankly, people get bored. We pay good money to do this job, but pretty soon one gets real bored (thus my transition to PM).
Your last statement is very close to the reason we have all the illegal immigrant troubles, isn't it? You're basically saying Americans don't want to do this work, so we need to hire non-US citizens to do it, weather they come here illegally, or we have to send the job to them.
It makes it sound like Americans just don't want to work for a living unless the job is full of excitement or high in glamor and presteige.
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hehe tell the 1s who didnt come to work, when they get back, they have to work a day for free as your protesting thier no show day.
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Well, being a small business owner. One I have a small group there are only 6 of us.
I would fire said employee, that said. I wouldn't fire them as it would cost me more as I only hire legal people. I would lay them off so I would not have to pay them unemployment. Why screw me both ways.. I'm gonna screw you back. I wouldn't lose business, because I deal in parts and equipment of a certain product. So I will not lose business, just an extra hand in the office.
But then I don't put myself in that situation. I do business with a manufacture that does. They are behind in prodcution, and I may stop doing business with that manufacture.
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Originally posted by Curval
I honestly do wonder how many other Americans would actually boycott Taco Bell though...it wasn't aimed at you.
I already boycott Taco Bell. Not because of the immigration thing, but because they are an insult to mexican food. Luckily, there are 100's of better mexican food joints around here like Taco Cabana.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Do you really expect people to believe that with all of the out-of-work tech support and software engineers in the US, you couldn't find enough qualified to do the work here? What's the qualification; willing to work for below poverty wages or software testing experience?
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LOL Midnight, you must be in a small company, in a small town! Those jobs you mention are the fastest growing and NEEDED employees in the U.S. currently. Maybe you could provide me numbers (You know, those pesky "Facts and Data") that show "all the out-of-work tech support ans software engineers in the U.S."?
I did find this information for you to digest:
Tech Support job growth:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos268.htm
Sys Admin job growth:
http://www.careeradvantage.org/university_of_phoenix_computer_systems_ad
ministrator_job_outlook.html
Software engineers job growth:
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos267.htm
Originally posted by Midnight
Please elaborate. For conversation sake, say you sent 500 software testing jobs over-seas. What new jobs, and how many, were created here in the US for the 500 Americans to fill?
If we could FIND 500 qualified personal within our state in that of short time that we have, it would be great! Another thing to consider is we'd have to lay them off in 2 years, thus the word "Contract work".
Our company used to hire MASSIVE amounts of people during a new product build-up, only to lay them off 2 years down the road when the new product hit the runway. The company has gotten smarter to compete globally by hiring contract workers, both U.S. and foreign.
Incidently, have you seen the unemployment figures in the U.S. lately? ;) If you do a google search, try looking at specific numbers like software technician unemployment rates. :)
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Originally posted by nuchpatrick
Well, being a small business owner. One I have a small group there are only 6 of us.
I would fire said employee, that said. I wouldn't fire them as it would cost me more as I only hire legal people. I would lay them off so I would not have to pay them unemployment. Why screw me both ways.. I'm gonna screw you back. I wouldn't lose business, because I deal in parts and equipment of a certain product. So I will not lose business, just an extra hand in the office.
But then I don't put myself in that situation. I do business with a manufacture that does. They are behind in prodcution, and I may stop doing business with that manufacture.
I thought that if your laid off from work, you can draw unemployment for a certain period of time
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Here's my take:
You treat those employees who didn't show for work *exactly* according to existing policy. If there is no policy, then you can't take action this time.
If the policy says a no-show, no-call is terminable, then do it. If it says the employee gets written up, then do it. And you definitely take the day away from any accrued comp days earned...no freeebies. If you make it OK for some, then you have to let anyone no-show anytime they want to spend the day at a political rally or function. It'll just spiral.
If the employee followed procedure, requested the time and it was charged against accrued comp time, then that's OK.
The business, in my opinion, has no obligation to support ideological or political causes on behalf of the employees. Fairness dictates that the employees not be actively or spitefully prevented from doing as they choose with their time, but the business has every right to expect that company policy applied on May 1 just like it does every other day of the year.
If you run a business in an "at-will" state, then you only need avoid doing anything that is illegal...discrimination, harassment, physical abuse, etc... Disciplining or terminating an employee for blatant contempt for company policy is not legally actionable.
All this should be balanced against the good advice to look at the cost-benefit...be careful with a big producer who is usually a good, compliant employee...it can be worth it to be flexible. Don't bother with the others.
Frankly, I think this is going to blow up in their faces. The demonstrations and marches, and the message itself, is not winning any friends with the majority of folks in the country, as far as I can tell. Besides, everybody is confusing the issue so badly it's scary. The issue is not immigration itself, but a) reform to the system to make it more realistic and navigable, and b)
dealing with those who break the law. Just because they broke the law running the border, instead of a red light, doesn't change a damn thing.
Since the protesters seem to feel that they are entitled to interpret the law in a way that's convenient to what they want, I figure I'll do the same and go help myself to whatever they have in their homes while they're demonstrating. I mean, 'no human being is illegal', right? I'm entitled, right?
If it's OK to flaunt the law in one instance, then it must be OK to do so in any instance, right?
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IF I were boss , I'd take 2 more days off in protest of their 1 day off and play golf.
IN FACT...think I'm gonna take the rest of the week off this week and play golf in protest of the poor treatment of the illegal persons who should have every god given right we have no matter how they get here , got here or WHAT. We as honest hard working tax paying LEGALl citizens of this country should bow down and kiss thier butts and be politically correct and just GET ALONG and give them anythng they want. After all...they demand it right?
FOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE EEEEEEE!!!!!!!
And Mustaine? I borrowed one of you lines from an earlier post in my sig. Hope you dont mind Bro.
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my brother's friend is an electrical sub-contractor in home construction. He had 30 employees no show him on monday. He called a meeting and told him that:
1. He didn't get any work out of them monday
2. Most of them won't show on friday, or leave early cause of cinco de mayo
3. He won't get any work out of them on saturday cause they will all be hungover
so.....
he fired every last one of them and reminded all of them that the 3 foreman are in fact liscensed electricians and can do their work....IE they are replaceable.
I thought good for him.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'd consider that day closed for business. Have Donuts and coffee waiting for them the the next morning.
An employee morally supported by their boss is a hard working employee.
even if you dont support their cause?
I could morally support an employee if I were also in support of their cause.
This not being the case.
As they say down by the Rio Grande
Adios Amigos
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I'm kinda with Ripsnort here.
It depends on the atmosphere you want to have at the job and what kind of people you're talking about.
I work at a mid sized SAP business as a consultant. We're expected to put in non paid overtime, to be professional and flexible. The company returns the favour by being the same.
If the management started nitpicking, the employees would, best case scenario, do the same.
Worst case scenario would be that they'd quit their job and work for a competitor. This wouldn't be very good for a successful company that's expanding rapidly.
So, to a large extent it depends on the job situation, the people involved and the atmosphere that's already in place or in the process of being created.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
he fired every last one
Is he replacing them with cheaper illegals?
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We basically catered to the boycott by scheduling our quarterly inventory on Monday. This meant only 40-50 people were required to be at work instead of our usual 800. We treated anyone who was scheduled to work and didn't show by the book.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
We basically catered to the boycott by scheduling our quarterly inventory on Monday. This meant only 40-50 people were required to be at work instead of our usual 800. We treated anyone who was scheduled to work and didn't show by the book.
I'm curious... if over 90% of the workforce suppored the boycott, how many are legal immigrants?
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Originally posted by RedTop
And Mustaine? I borrowed one of you lines from an earlier post in my sig. Hope you dont mind Bro.
mind? not at all sir ;) :aok
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Well my father works in vegas for a very large construction company. He said that the head honchos gave everyone the day off if they wanted it, but if you wanted to work you could. Was a pretty good idea i think.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I'm curious... if over 90% of the workforce suppored the boycott, how many are legal immigrants?
Well, based on the paperwork we get from them, they are all legal. We are too big to leave ourselves open to action by INS, or ISE or whatever they call themselves now. I know for a fact that one guy used a family member's ID and worked for us illegally for 6 years. He was even a supervisor.