Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Bombardy on May 01, 2006, 11:08:51 PM
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Okay, first....... let's all take a deep breath and acknowledge that the war on the eastern front was one heck of a fight, and that it was tremendously large in scope and breadth.
MY WISH: Iljushin IL-4
Considering it's numbers and it's role in WWII, it has been called the most significant medium bomber of WW2
In a nutshell, it was an medium bomber that could be used for long range, capable of carrying troops, or cargo, and even torpedos! it did it all!
here's a pic:
(http://avia.russian.ee/pictures/russia/il-4.jpg)
The original design was modified afer the soviets examined some of the DC-3's they recieved and they came up with a honey of a plane.
Important Points:
1) in AH it could be used for bombing, Goon, field resupply, or torpedo attacks!
2) it had defensive armament! (don't we all wish we had goon with balls!)
3) looks awsome
4) it could be our FIRST russian bomber!
5) over 5,000 were produced!!
6) awsome for scenarios! It conducted berlin raids!
7) would be a good alternative to using instead of a C-47 for delivering troops! how about a set of 3 bombers each carrying 5 paratroopers?!! enemy wouldn't know if it was there to bomb of deliver troops - awsome!
I really think #7 would add a new dynamic to the MA, bomber interception would get a lot more popular!
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
- Type three-seat long-range bomber
- Maximum Speed: 255 mph ( 411 km/h) at 15,500 ft 9700 m
- Range 3800 km
- Payload 2500 kg (additional 1,000 could be added to external points)
- Torpedos: up to three 1,102 lb (500 kg) torpedoes
- Armament one 12.7mm and two 7.62mm machine-guns
DETAILED DESCRIPTION
Ilyushin 11-4 One of the great bombers of the war, the Ilyushin 11-4 has not unnaturally been overshadowed in Western thinking by the great
British and American aircraft, yet well over 5,000 Il-4s were produced between 1937 and 1944, the vast majority in the last three years. The original prototype of this low-wing twin-engine bomber, designated the TsKB-26, flew in 1935, was developed through the TsKB-30, and entered production in 1937 as the DB-3B (DB being a Soviet contraction denoting longrange bomber). Early examples were powered by 571kW M-85 engines, but these were replaced by 716kW M-86s in 1938. Although a tough and relatively simple design, the aircraft suffered from a poor defensive armament of single nose, dorsal and ventral 7.62mm guns, and lost heavily to such aircraft as the Bristol Bulldog, Gloster Gladiator and Fokker D.XXI during the Winter War against Finland in 1939-40. In 1939 a modified version with lengthened nose and more armour (the DB-3F) appeared, and in 1940, in conformity with changed Russian practice, the designation became Il-4 (denoting the designer, Sergei Ilyushin). Soon after the German attack on the USSR opened in 1941 it was decided to withdraw Il-4 production to newly opening plants in Siberia, at the same time replacing a large proportion of the metal structure by less strategically critical wood. Il-4s also entered service with Soviet Naval Aviation, and it was a naval- manned force of these bombers that first raided Berlin from the east on 8 August 1941. Thereafter the Il-4 paid frequent visits to the German capital and other targets in Eastern Europe. In 1944 production ended, although the Il-4 served until the end of the war and afterwards. Apart from increasing the calibre of its guns and giving it a torpedo- carrying ability, the Il-4 remained virtually unchanged between 1941 and 1944.
(http://www.ww2guide.com/il4.jpg)
(http://www.pt-boats.net/PT_web/pics/il-4.jpg)
(http://www.russianwarrior.com/Images/41_il4bomberpic2.jpg) (http://www.russianwarrior.com/Images/il4.jpg)
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Il2 is a russian bomber :D
But how about only 5 troops with only a single plane so you get defense but need at least 2 I would love it but I doubt its up there with TOD i meen COmbat Theater coming. so NOT BUTTS NO CUTS NO COCONUTS hehehe jk would be shweet.:aok :p
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That's a plane been requested and wished upon a great many times.
Most folks would dearly love to see a more robust Soviet plane set.
The Pe-2 is the most requested soviet medium as it is also a sweet attacker and had multiple configurations.
The Il-4, derived I think from the earlier DB-3, would be a really sweet adition. It was a very stable torpedo bomber as well.
Sakai
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Yes, yes, yes, and yes.
Ohhh YES
ANY russian bomber would be nice.
iL2 is a russian bomber same as VAL is a Japanese bomber.
They are NOT the same as a medium or heavy level bomber.
Japan & russian planesets both need a good level bomber!
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Yes, yes, yes, and yes.
Japan & russian planesets both need a good level bomber!
The Japanese have the best level bomber they made already, the Ki-67. What the Japanese set lacks is an early war bomber like the Ki-21 but I would opt for the Ki-49 Helen as the 21 is just too fragile and in all respects they are the same except armor.
Glaring data gaps for mediums, as noted, are the Russians and Italians first (The SM 79 or Cantz 1007). The next would be the English Wellington and German Heinkel. After that for buffs we need a larger Axis plane, and the Do217 or possibly the Ju188 would appear to be the best candidates. As I recall, the only 4-engined Jap bomber never flew a sortie, was it ever built?
Sakai
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Looks like a Ki-67 to me, wouldn't fly it unless it had the 20MM in it:p
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I thought the Sally (can't remember the designation) was 4-engined.
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Sally - Mitsubishi Ki-21 II. Twin engine job that looks similar to the IL-4 pictured.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
Sally - Mitsubishi Ki-21 II. Twin engine job that looks similar to the IL-4 pictured.
Yes, they characterized the Sally and Helen and Peggy (the Japanese did, the Ki-21and the Ki-49 Donryu and Ki-67 Hiryu) as heavies as I recall but all were twin engined mediums (as we would call them) and I don't recall them making a plane that carried much over 2000 lbs ordinance other than the H8K Emily Flying Boat which was not a land bomber and I doubt had sophisticated sighting devices but would gladly be corrected on that point.
The Nakajima G10N or Fugaku was a planned, 6-engine development cancelled in 1944-45 I think. That plane was a monster with planned capacity of something on the order of 20k bombs. I think there was a 4 engined Ki-22 or Ki-20 something that also never sortied but cannot recall specifics (or if a prototype ever flew). Regardless, both the Soviet Pe-8 and the fine Italian P108 were far more important and useful aircraft in the war than any Japanese Heavy outside the H8K which was so terribly important because it was a flying boat. Heck, the Germans had a more succesful "army" heavy in the Grief and it was a tragically flawed aircraft.
But the Ki-21 was useful to the early war effort being employed against the Soviets in Manchuria and the Chinese.
When you consider that an F6 or F4U probably delivered more ordinance more accurately, it puts Jap bombing in perspective. The Japanese used bombers as weapons to terrify civilain populations (e.g., China) or strike precisely in small numbers on specific targets (e.g., Darwin, English Capital Ships--wasn't Prince of Wales sunk by "obsolete" G3M Nells?).
While the Ki-21 was the most important bomber it was not their best. It was made in good numbers for a Japanese plane (2000+) and had the longest service (like 1930s late through 1945). It was not as fragile as the Betty, but it was not as good as the 67 or the 49 (and from I think US pilot reports, no Japanese plane was as tough or as nasty as the H8K Emily).
If a Ki-21 is modeled, I hope we have some nice Pagodas modeled for it to bomb.
Sakai
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The "Soviet Pe-8 and the fine Italian P108", now you're talking love with a mistress on the side, :) then throw in the "Porcupine" slash "Emily" and the bomber guys would be breaking their faces with grins. If I recall the Emily could carry 2,000kg or almost 3 times the Ki-67 loadout but who'd want to get his fighter anywhere near that thing, hehe.
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Id fly it
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Sakai,
You are thinking of the Rita. Never flew a mission, but yes, it was built.
The only Japanese bomber that saw service and carried a heavy warload would be the H8K2 "Emily". Only a bit over 100 were built though and it would be a modeling nightmare for HTC due to the cavernous interior spaces and great many gun positions.
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TU-2 / PE-2 :)
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:aok Sounds good, Bombardy!:aok
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well done on your research!! i want one :aok
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Originally posted by Furball
TU-2 / PE-2 :)
I agree with the Frenchman.
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TORPEDOES AWAY!
(http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-23-ilyushin_il-4_flight_carrying_torpedo.jpeg)
(http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-24-ilyushin_il-4_loading_torpedo.jpeg)
http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-24-ilyushin_il-4_parked_in_dispersal.jpeg
http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-25-ilyushin_il-4s_flight.jpeg
http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-25-ilyushin_il-4s_getting_ready_on_flight-line.jpeg
http://www.studenten.net/customasp/axl/image/foto/24-6-2003-9-26-ilyushin_il-4s_over_mountains.jpeg
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I like the idea and hope to see it implemented :aok
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Originally posted by straffo
I agree with the Frenchman.
:furious
:lol
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Originally posted by Furball
TU-2 / PE-2 :)
Nice planes...but they would just be bombers.
Bombardy makes some excellent points about the unique impact the IL-4 could have on gameplay.
A trio of IL-4s could be bombing the town, or dropping the troops....the defenders wouldnt know which. Imagine how fun it would be to play a shell game, with an IL-4 mission of >6 bombers sets with ONE of them having paratroopers.....which one? Or single planes converging from 3 different angles, having randomly mixed loadouts.....
I think it would add another layer to a capture/strategic game thats been skewed with the more crowded arena.
I'm all for it!
:aok :aok :aok
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what has HQ said about new aircraft being added?
hap
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Originally posted by Hap
what has HQ said about new aircraft being added?
hap
You wanna know?
Wait for it . . .
Two weeks.
Sakai
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I'd hit that.... with about a 3 second burst of 20mm, hehe :)
WE NEED MORE EASTERN FRONT RIDES!
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I think I might eventually want the IL4, but it would be like the Do17Z, obsolete before the war began. It would literally be a sitting duck, in every sense of the word. The idea of having a bomber that can take bombrs OR cargo OR troops is an intriquing one, one that I suggested some time back with the 4-engines fixed-gear soviet bomber (I've forgotten the designation of it, the one they used for the Sveno setup).
You could "hide" a goon inside a formation of actual bombers, and so forth. It would present an interesting strategy. That, and it would be an armed goon!
I would like to see the IL4 eventually, but I think a better "early war" soviet bomber might be the SB-2 or for mid war the Pe-2. I don't know if the Pe had a level bombsight or not, though. I don't think it did.
The fact of the matter is that most soviet bombers were for close air support, which means most of their attack craft were light, and dove on targets to hit them. You won't find many russian planes from ww2 with bombsights in 'em.
I think of the Soviet bombers, we should have the Pe2, the Tu2, and then the SB2/IL4 (either/or)
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I think the Pe was like the Mossie, only certain versions had the bombsight.
The Il4 might not be so bad, as long as you keep in mind that its meant to fill in the early war planeset, where it would only historically be up against the Bf109E and F (and the Romanian HurriIs if there was a Black Sea setup). No gondies, no 30mm, no 400mph speedfreaks. Not even really any 190s for the most part. If they made the version with the belly gunner position, it would even be more survivable than the Havocs they currently are forced to use in the level bomber role. Not as fast, but better armed.
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BUZZZZZ!
The IL-4 like the Do17Z, obsolete before the war began?
Bullhocky (not sure if that is even a word)
IL-4 was plenty fast, and quite capable of long range flights. It did often take part in close in support so to speak, loading up 3000Kg of bombs to hit behind the front lines
The IL-4 was versitile and used extensively and very capable aircraft - and definately not a "early war" type only plane, the russians continued to use it even after WW2!
here's a really interesting aspect of the IL-4
the Il4 was used extensively in anti-shipping operations in the baltic sea throughout the war, and could carry three torpedos each around 1000kg
*or*
a single 2000kg torpedo that was a high-alt torpedo that was droped from any altitude out infront of ships and would float down with a parachute. once it hit the water it would activate and travel in large circles in the water. A very ingenious method that worked very well in tests but in practical useage didn't really yield the expected results, either way imagine it would be a new and interesting way to attack cv's !!
it's not super uber, but a late war IL-4 would have 3 12.7mm machine guns for defense and a very versitile load out including an optional external fuel tank
compare it to the Ju88.....it doesn't have the same load out but the defensive armament is probably a little better, IL-4 is a little faster and HEY it's russian!
shame on you for not agreeing with ME!!!
:D
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TIME Life has this to say about the IL4:
"ILYUSHIN IL-4/DB-3F (1938)
The first Soviet plane to bomb Berlin, in 1941, the twin-engined Il-4 medium bomber could deliver a 2,204-pound payload to a target almost 1,200 miles away. But it quickly became obsolescent because of its slow (277mph) speed and weak (only three machine guns) defensive armament. Many Il-4s were refitted to carry a one-ton aerial torpedo or a sea mine."
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think I might eventually want the IL4, but it would be like the Do17Z, obsolete before the war began.
I think a better "early war" soviet bomber might be the SB-2 or for mid war the Pe-2. I don't know if the Pe had a level bombsight or not, though. I don't think it did.
The fact of the matter is that most soviet bombers were for close air support, which means most of their attack craft were light, and dove on targets to hit them. You won't find many russian planes from ww2 with bombsights in 'em.
Well, you are spot on regarding the use of bombers by the Soviets, and for that matter the Jerries, on that front. After Britain, Germany seemingly had no stomach for sustained, strategic bombing and the Soviets were not going to project such forces across half their territory and deep into Germany.
However, asking for the SB-2 over the Il-4 is curious. The Il-4 was more widely used and a far better plane.
The Il-4 was a capable plane, and like the SM-79, Ju-52, SM-81 and most Flying Boats could fulfill multiple roles. In all the early posts on the H8K the capability to fly in supplies, troops or to bomb was offered up as I recall.
The GM-3, Do-17, He-111, Il-4, SM-79 etc. might not be uber arena planes, but if TOD is to have any sustained success we need such aircraft as well as the early war fighters. The LaGG-3, as an example, should not be too difficult to model being as the airframe and cockpit were (in the majority of those built) the same as the La-5 (as I recall). And surely SM-79s have a shot against Gloster Gladiators and Hurricane Mk Is? Is the 109e really too much plane for an Il-4? Is the G6? I doubt it.
The Il-4 is a far better plane than is the Kate or Val or SBD or Stuka yet we have all those and why cant we send a guy up with a box of four to six mediums? Say, all early war craft get 6, but planes like the B-26 up get only 4 or 3?
Also, the Pe-2 was delivered to units starting in 1941--no midwar plane that. It would be the best soviet bomber in terms of the hamster whee . . . errrr arena, sorry, but the Il-4 was their best, widely deployed homegrown level bomber of the war. Their best bomber was probably the A-20 wasn't it?
Sakai
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As a side note the first Pe-2s started showing up in 1941 but it wasn't around in great strength until '42/'43 if I recall. There were some version changes and then the production was ramped up. I think that's how it went.
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Originally posted by Krusty
As a side note the first Pe-2s started showing up in 1941 but it wasn't around in great strength until '42/'43 if I recall. There were some version changes and then the production was ramped up. I think that's how it went.
It was flying in 1939 and the Soviets switched its role to tactical bomber after seeing what Hitler and Company did, given Petylyakov and crew like a month or so to revamp it or else. It was reflown prior to 1941 and entered service in Spring 1941.
The entire Red Air Force was a shambles at that time and regrouped in 1942 but that plane was swinging and bombing in Spring 1941. The numbers gig has to do with relocating the manufacturing plant, not with development/deployment issues. The problems with that plane were tweaked out during its use, as with any other aircraft.
It was a frontline, integral part of their airforce in 1941. There were more planes of other types around; but here's a corollary: the Main Japanese fighter type in terms of units equipped on December 7, 1941 as I recall was the Ki-27 Claude. So I guess modeling the Zeke was silly?
Also, like 11,000 of these flew. That's a bum load. The Pe-2 is simply a "must have" plane in terms of its importance.
The SB-2/3 series, by the way, would make great Spanish Civil War arena planes and early war eastern front machines.
;-)
Sakai