Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on May 04, 2006, 06:21:10 PM
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Wednesday evening in the TA presented a terrific opportunity to fly with and compete against some of the better pilots in Aces High.
Present were Infensus, Murdr, Nomak, Creton, TC, Ghosth, Soulyss and Qatr.
There were also some less well known, but very capable MA regulars who stopped in to work on getting some time in specific aircraft.
When I logged off for the evening, I think that everyone had been flying Bf 109s, mostly the F-4 model, but Creton and Infensus were dueling in G-2s for a while. All were in agreement that the 109F-4 was one seriously fun ride now.
Let me state at the outset that since the 2.07 update, the Bf 109F-4 has become one of the more remarkable fighters in the plane set. But, I’ll get into that a bit later.
Bingo73 and I met to work on flying the F4Us. After flying around for a short time, the one thing I noticed was that Bingo73 wasn’t aware of how effective the F4U’s rudder is when flying at low speed, just above stall. After about five minutes of demonstration and discussion, Bingo was doing some of the nicest rudder reversals I’ve seen. A full flaps, nose-high rudder reversal is one of the slickest maneuvers you will ever see. Moreover, it’s a devastating maneuver when done well with proper timing.
While Bingo was flying an F4U-1, I grabbed a 109F-4. He pulled up close on my 6 o’clock and we entered a left-hand turn (a lufberry). We both fed out flaps until fully down. Around and around we went. While the F4U-1 is a remarkable turner (easily a match for the Spit16 or Spit8), the 109F-4 was able to pull around on the F4U’s six in just 4 full revolutions. Needless to say, this was quite startling to see. However, it did confirm what I had come to believe; that the 109F-4 is now among the best turning fighters in AH2.
Previous experiences suggested that the 109F could hang with the Spitfire Mk.V in a flat turning contest. Indeed, inasmuch as the 109F has a marked climb advantage over the SpitV, it would gain a clear edge by simply going nose-high and the Spitfire could not match it. Likewise, I found that the 109F could handle the Niki well enough. Only below 100 mph did the Niki have an edge, and that resulted from its ability to keep the nose a tiny bit higher than the 109F. Moreover, it takes an extremely good pilot to recognize that and then be able to capitalize on it
As more and more pilots tried the newly uber 109F, we found ourselves in a giant lufberry consisting of 109F-4s, F4Us, a Hurricane IIC and a Seafire. Well now, I realized that this was a great opportunity to compare turn performance against some very good turn fighters. As we circled around, Ghosth entered the circle in a Seafire, right behind me. Just about four and one half revolutions later, I was behind the Seafire and was able to maintain a tighter circle. Ditto for the Hurricane IIC, which was only a bit better than the Seafire, but still notably inferior to the 109F in steady-state turn rate, but with the turn radius being similar.
Some tips for flying the 109F-4 since the 2.07 update.
Unlike the P-38s, combat trim actually improves the stability of the 109F during low-speed maneuvering. However, be prepared to trim manually when flying at high speed, because the elevators stiffen considerably above 450 mph. For high-speed work, set the elevator trim at least 1/3 up from the bottom of the scale.
The 109F-4 turns better to the left than to the right at low speeds (torque and P factor effect)
Like most aircraft, the 109F has poor aileron authority at low speed, so use the rudder to speed up roll in either direction.
Without a gondola option, the 109F has limited firepower. Therefore, get in as close as possible to maximize what firepower it does possess.
Use of flaps is required to out-turn the Spitfire V and Seafire. Nonetheless, be careful not to overuse the flaps as the 109F-4 offers only average acceleration.
Like the other 109s, the F model tends to lose rudder authority when applying right rudder just above stall, this appears to be the result of modeling prop wash impinging on the rudder. Pull off power a bit and push the nose down to get some authority back, but do not reduce power so much as to induce a snap-stall. This takes some practice to master.
Like any other aircraft, the place to learn its limits and capabilities is the TA, not the MA. So, set aside some time to practice against adversaries who cannot shoot you down before venturing into the MA.
My regards,
Widewing
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Well, that has to be a bug I think.
There is no way the 109F should be outturning the Spit V and Hurri2C... the Spit V has wingloading of what, like 26 lb/sqft? The 109F should be in the mid 30s. And it doesn't have that much more power, although I'll admit I'm winging it here and not looking up the numbers.
Seems like it is defying some laws of physics.
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Awesome stuff widewing. I will have to wait to see if the info holds true for myself. I have always been a 109 fan, but have not tried the F-4 for a long time. I have become dependant on the 30mm gun of the G-14 and K-4. I had known the 110C could turn like a bandit, but now the F-4 does too?
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109F won't outturn the spit V, not even close. The reworked flaps have just made it be able to hang with the spit in the 200mph ballpark range. Once slow the spit v runs circles around it, as the spit should.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Wednesday evening in the TA presented a terrific opportunity to fly with and compete against some of the better pilots in Aces High.
Present were Infensus, Murdr, Nomak, Creton, TC, Ghosth, and Qatr.
There were also some less well known, but very capable MA regulars who stopped in to work on getting some time in specific aircraft.
Oh yeah and that Soulyss guy was there too.
When I logged off for the evening, I think that everyone had been flying Bf 109s, mostly the F-4 model, but Creton and Infensus were dueling in G-2s for a while. All were in agreement that the 109F-4 was one seriously fun ride now.
I amended your post to make it more accurate. :D
Was great fun, while I didn't get in the F myself it seems like it could pull some amazing manuvers. Learned a couple things to boot which was nice, thanks for the time Wide. :)
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Originally posted by Stang
109F won't outturn the spit V, not even close. The reworked flaps have just made it be able to hang with the spit in the 200mph ballpark range. Once slow the spit v runs circles around it, as the spit should.
I understand your perception, but that's what the rest of 'em thought too... Indeed, we saw the same statement before, whereas the Dhog couldn't turn with, much less out-turn the Spit16.. Until we proved it. Given equal pilots, the Spit16 should win if the fight is prolonged due to superior vertical ability at low speeds. However, during the transition from merge to low speed, the F4U is extremely formidable. Should the fight be confined to flat turns, the F4U will fly a smaller circle and eventually catch the Spit16. Fight a 109F with a Dhog and the opposite is true. The 109F wins that turning contest with relative ease. I'm not talking about 200 mph maneuvering, I'm talking about 85 mph on knife edge.
After 2.07, it's a whole new universe.
I didn't film Wednesday's entertainment, but you can ask Murdr, TC, Infensus or Ghosth. Not only did the 109F out-turn Ghosth's Seafire at 100 mph, it did so convincingly.
I do have film of a duel between my 109F and a SpitV flown by Sonic23. The 109F was superior, flaps out at speeds between 90 and 110 mph. I can post it if anyone wants to see it. Sonic23 is no slouch in a Spitfire.
Better yet, I'll be in the TA tomorrow evening after 9 PM eastern. Stop in, grab a SpitV, we'll crack open a beer at our respective ends and give it a go.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well, that has to be a bug I think.
There is no way the 109F should be outturning the Spit V and Hurri2C... the Spit V has wingloading of what, like 26 lb/sqft? The 109F should be in the mid 30s. And it doesn't have that much more power, although I'll admit I'm winging it here and not looking up the numbers.
Seems like it is defying some laws of physics.
I agree that it's seems a bit far-fetched, and I was very much surprised myself. You know I wouldn't make that statement without having established it empirically by flying it against good pilots, as well as conducting comparison tests.
Is the new flap modeling overly ambitious? That's certainly a possibility as no one expected the 109F to perform as it does. Pyro stated that the new flap/drag model would affect every aircraft, some for good, some for bad. We see that the P-38 suffered greatly, but the 109s improved quite a bit, with the 109F going from damn good to genuine UFO status.
Should it be that good? No, it probably shouldn't be. However, until there's another patch it's that good for the time being.
Try one... Mix it up with a good stick in a SpitV or Seafire and you'll see what I'm conveying here. But, enjoy it while it lasts, because I'm fairly certain it won't be like this 6 months from now. I expect a general tweaking of the flap/drag model when the P-38 bug fix is incorporated.
By the way, using flaps in the SpitV or Seafire gains nothing but added drag and a general destabilization at slow speeds. In contrast, the 109F is rock steady and drag seems far less than in the SpitV or Seafire. Again, that reflects what Pyro stated when 2.07 was released.
My regards,
Widewing
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I have to add, for that first turn in the seafire when I started out on widewings 6. I had very little trouble holding enough lead for a shot at any point. But only for the first turn. So if the seafire has the advantage, its going to be able to use it to kill.
After that first turn there was no way to catch up to widewing or murdr in 109f &
E. They just started crawling up my 6 and stayed there.
Mind you this was not a pure dogfight, it was a sustained turn.
But it does tell you a few things about the capabilities.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
I have to add, for that first turn in the seafire when I started out on widewings 6. I had very little trouble holding enough lead for a shot at any point. But only for the first turn. So if the seafire has the advantage, its going to be able to use it to kill.
After that first turn there was no way to catch up to widewing or murdr in 109f &
E. They just started crawling up my 6 and stayed there.
Mind you this was not a pure dogfight, it was a sustained turn.
But it does tell you a few things about the capabilities.
Yes sir, when I saw you behind me, I dumped more flaps and reefed it tighter. About 4 turns later I was on your six with Murdr alongside. I nearly chuckled when Rowdy stalled his Hurricane trying to match us. It was wobbling like 109s used to.
I found in my duel with Sonic that I could reverse faster in the 109F, taking full advantage of the excellent flaps. He was not expecting that. Once speeds deteriorated down to the 120 mph range, the 109F began to gain angles until I could fly straight at the turning SpitV and put my sights on the canopy. We were basically flying intersecting circles. Several times he came close to getting a guns solution, but I'd just tighten the turn and he couldn't get the Spit around enough without it dipping a wing. Sonic reversed from left to right a couple of times and that only made it easier to gain angles, especially as I could do shallow yo-yos, which the Spitfire could not do so close to stall speed. Much like the Spit16 vs the Dhog.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Soulyss
I amended your post to make it more accurate. :D
Was great fun, while I didn't get in the F myself it seems like it could pull some amazing manuvers. Learned a couple things to boot which was nice, thanks for the time Wide. :)
You did great, and it was a pleasure flying with you.
My regards,
Widewing
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maybe we should pork the 109's flaps instead of the 38's:D :rofl
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Originally posted by Widewing
I didn't film Wednesday's entertainment, but you can ask Murdr, TC, Infensus or Ghosth. Not only did the 109F out-turn Ghosth's Seafire at 100 mph, it did so convincingly.
109E also. I was in the Emil for that lufberry, making my own observations in relation to your Friedrick and Ghosth's seafire. As you saw, it also is blessed with the low speed stability, and tight nose above the horizon turn with the flaps out.
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Widewing, when will you learn to keep your big mouth shut?!
If pyro nerfs my Friedrich I'm putting a curse on you!
;)
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My limited reading suggests the F was a really really good dog fighter. Yes it had a higher wingloading than the contemporary brits but I think it had a superior power loading. With the smaller wing, and cleaned up airframe, it didn't bleed energy as fast, and it had the extra horses to pull it self around.
So this description doesn't seem at all odd to me.
Originally posted by Widewing
I agree that it's seems a bit far-fetched, and I was very much surprised myself. You know I wouldn't make that statement without having established it empirically by flying it against good pilots, as well as conducting comparison tests.
Is the new flap modeling overly ambitious? That's certainly a possibility as no one expected the 109F to perform as it does. Pyro stated that the new flap/drag model would affect every aircraft, some for good, some for bad. We see that the P-38 suffered greatly, but the 109s improved quite a bit, with the 109F going from damn good to genuine UFO status.
Should it be that good? No, it probably shouldn't be. However, until there's another patch it's that good for the time being.
Try one... Mix it up with a good stick in a SpitV or Seafire and you'll see what I'm conveying here. But, enjoy it while it lasts, because I'm fairly certain it won't be like this 6 months from now. I expect a general tweaking of the flap/drag model when the P-38 bug fix is incorporated.
By the way, using flaps in the SpitV or Seafire gains nothing but added drag and a general destabilization at slow speeds. In contrast, the 109F is rock steady and drag seems far less than in the SpitV or Seafire. Again, that reflects what Pyro stated when 2.07 was released.
My regards,
Widewing
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And it had slats and usable flaps. The Spit had no slats and its binary split flaps were little more than airbrakes.
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Originally posted by uvwpvW
Widewing, when will you learn to keep your big mouth shut?!
If pyro nerfs my Friedrich I'm putting a curse on you!
;)
My deepest apologies! Now please, put down that voodoo doll....
My regards,
Widewing
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:lol :aok
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Oh, I don't doubt that the 109F can hang with a Spit V, I went head to head with one in the MA and handily flew circles around it.
The problem is I don't think it should be able to do that. I was under the impression that for sustained turning wing-loading was key, with powerloading also being important, but secondary.
I know the old British reports say that there is "little to choose" between the Spit 5 and Spit 9, and between the Spit 9 and 14 in turning ability, which you could chalk up to improved powerloading keeping the higher wingloading in check.. but the 109F's wingloading was ~10 lb/sqft higher than the Spit 5's.
It just doesn't seem kosher to me.
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different airfoils & different wing shapes probably make wingloading a deceptive charateristic to compare, epecially at dogf***ing speeds where total drag is on the lower than most of the rest of the speed range
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"My limited reading suggests the F was a really really good dog fighter. Yes it had a higher wingloading than the contemporary brits but I think it had a superior power loading. With the smaller wing, and cleaned up airframe, it didn't bleed energy as fast, and it had the extra horses to pull it self around."
I'd say that the smaller wing helps to keep energy in high speed maneuvers but in slow speed it becomes a disadvantage. That is where you need the slats to give you some extra angles and engine power to pull you through them (of course a notch of flaps could be useful unless the angles are not very radical). If the Spit doesn't try to out turn the F but holds a steady turn with enough speed it really should turn circles around F after it has run out of E when trying to gain angles on Spit.
Just my opinion.
-C+
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A Spitfire pilot will tell you the Spit could turn inside the 109. Some Messerschmitt pilots were unshaken in their belief that the 109 could turn inside the Spitfire! Both designs were capable of turning circles that would cause the pilot to "black-out" as the blood drained from the head. The pilot who could force himself to the limits without losing consciousness would emerge the victor from a turning battle, and the Spitfire pilots had supreme faith in their machine. The British popular press (and even one broadcast by the BBC early in the war) told them that the wings came off the 109 in a dive or in tight turns, untrue but possibly based on some early wing failures in the 109's predecessor the Bf108. British designers and aeronautical pundits also found the Bf109's wing structure somewhat strange, with only two attachments between the wing and fuselage and their suspicions that this might prove fragile in combat probably influenced the popular press comments.
The Spitfire had a lower wing loading than the Bf 109 and this would normally give the better turning circle. However the 109 had help with its leading edge slats which gave a lower stalling speed, and thus was able to turn tighter than a simple comparison of wing areas might suggest. The 109 was very forgiving if stalled, with little tendency for a stall to develop into an uncontrollable spin, something that could easily happen to a Spitfire, although the Spitfire gave its pilot plenty of warning that he was approaching a stall due to the slight twist in the wing known as "wash-out". It is this "wash-out" which probably holds the key to the Spitfire's success. Because of the twist to the wings the stall (break up in airflow over the wing) would develop first near the fuselage rather than at the tip as on most conventional "straight" wings. This manifests itself as a feedback to the pilot through the controls and the airframe, in effect the Spitfire "talks" to the pilot and tells him he must ease back on the stick to avoid stalling completely. Because the airflow at the tips of the wings (where the control surfaces are) is still stable the controls are still effective. in a tight combat turn with minimum turning circle the aircraft is always on the edge of stalling, the feedback the Spitfire gave its pilot is probably the crucial factor in a turning battle.
There is more than one account by German wartime fighter pilots that suggest that many Luftwaffe novices did not use the turning performance of the 109 to the full. They seem to have regarded the point at which the automatic slats popped out as being a warning to ease back. Only more experienced pilots pushed the Bf109 to its limits. The way the slats operated could itself be a problem, causing the Bf109 to "buck" and throw off the aim of the Bf109 pilot, perhaps at the critical moment.
109F-4
Wing area: 173 sq ft
Wing loading: 31.9 lb/sq ft
Spit V
Wing area: 242 sq ft
Wing loading: 28 lb/sq ft
Spit IX
Wing area: 242 sq ft
Wing loading: 30.2 lb/sq ft
- From “Spitfire Versus Bf109” by Dinger Dell
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can you describe what you mean by a rudder reversal, and when its used.?
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I'll try to make it, Widewing.
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I flew the 109F last night for a couple sorties, and it seemed more nimble than I remember it. I went to fighter town in the middle of the map, and it was wall to wall spitfires. Spit16's have a real hard time getting guns on the 109F. The best fight I had was against FX1 in a Spit16, and I needed all the turning ability the 109F had to get him to overshoot. A rolling scissors ensued, and in the vertical, the Spit16 was able to keep things even until it got real slow. I could not turn right very well at all, and at one point, hung there in the air for what seemed like eternity before I kicked rudder the opposite way and rolled out to the left. Luckily I had landed a few rounds on FX1, or I might not have found out who the excellent Spit16 pilot was when he stalled out and hit the ground.
After action report, turns great left at all speeds, turns right almost as good up to around 120 kts or so. After that, rudder is required to turn right, and at stall speed, all turns should be power off, or to the left. I was comfortable in any turn fight, except for the one with the D3A.
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I havent been in the F4Us much, but I am loving the changes to the 109s...especially the K4. what a ride.:aok
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I can't see a spit and a 109 doing under 100 in say, the AvA, there's just no way a fight could last that long before one of them dying to a squaddie or friend etc.
But in the MA, I could see it, So the facts lay themselves out RE: 109f turning, however, chances of it actually happening (in the AvA) are small to tiny.
And like you said, it'll probabaly be fixed with the 38 update.
Interesting stuff though sir!
:aok
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Originally posted by Hawco
And like you said, it'll probabaly be fixed with the 38 update.
That's assuming it's wrong in the first place.
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Originally posted by uvwpvW
That's assuming it's wrong in the first place.
HTC already said there was a bug with full flaps on the 38.
Bronk
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Yes, but if I'm not mistaken he also said the bug only affected the P-38. He or Pyro said earlier that some planes would benefit from the new flaps model while others would suffer. I'm hoping the new 109s are here to stay.
*Crosses fingers, knocks on wood and throws salt over shoulder*
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Originally posted by Bronk
HTC already said there was a bug with full flaps on the 38.
Bronk
Hmmmm thought that's what i said.:huh
Bronk
PS I like the change also . Not just the 109s, seams most have a benefit with new model.
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Yup too bad the 20s on German planesblow chunks.
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The 109G's might be fun to play around in, if it didnt feel like you were trying to look forward through a toilet paper roll taped to your eye.
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I believe the "rudder reversal" he is refering to is when in a climb at close to stall speeds. You can yank on the stick and drop flaps then pop your rudder to the left and the F4U will snap like a rubber band. Either direction is a great way to go and has been very useful for me when I am flying against Niki's and get into a scissors fight...which is nearly every time up.
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Originally posted by TracerX
I could not turn right very well at all, and at one point, hung there in the air for what seemed like eternity before I kicked rudder the opposite way and rolled out to the left.
Yeah, this is standard fare in the 109F... At just above stall, flaps down, nose high, the 109F will not roll right. No amount of aileron and rudder will unstick it. Surely this is torque combined with P-factor at work. You did what I do, rudder and ailerons left and she rolls quite smartly, indeed very rapidly to the left. So fast that you have to be quick to catch it before it over-rotates. When you expect it to stick like that you quickly learn how to use that to an advantage in certain circumstances as almost nothing reverses from right to left quicker.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Reschke
I believe the "rudder reversal" he is refering to is when in a climb at close to stall speeds. You can yank on the stick and drop flaps then pop your rudder to the left and the F4U will snap like a rubber band. Either direction is a great way to go and has been very useful for me when I am flying against Niki's and get into a scissors fight...which is nearly every time up.
That's basically the maneuver. Using rudder to rotate smartly, wings only slightly banked. When seen on film with trails on, it shows how insanely tight the plane reverses direction. Going left usually results in more wing drop. Going right allows for better control as torque resists the tendency to over-rotate. Timed right, the pursuing aircraft can do little to avoid being clobbered. Prior to the P-38 flap bug, the Lightning could perform this maneuver very well too.
My regards,
Widewing
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After reading this thread I tried the 109F last night. It is an amazing little plane, I was easily able to outfly all kinds of late war planes, 51s, LA7s, p47s. As long as you can get them turning they don't stand a chance.
The only problem ... how the hell do you hit anything with the crappy guns? I missed at least 5 sure kills because I couldn't land a hit with the cannon, and the MGs are worse than useless :(
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Incorrect: It's not "a bug specific to the 38" it's a bug "with all flaps at full settings" -- try it in any aircraft. They act like super speed brakes. It's a bug for all flaps in all craft. That is what is going to be fixed next patch.
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Originally posted by Widewing
That's basically the maneuver. Using rudder to rotate smartly, wings only slightly banked. When seen on film with trails on, it shows how insanely tight the plane reverses direction. ...
Yeah ... that's where having the twisty-stick Saitek does me in. I just can't get that coordinated move, I usually end up flying semi-sideways at best, or corkscrewing into a spin at worst.
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Same here. A film of this move might be informative. Anybody have one showing it in action?
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Krusty,
I am not sure you are correct on the issues with full flaps on "all craft". Look at my initial measurements in http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176856
From my measurements, it would appear that with the 109-f4 and F4U-1C at least (51s have a bug), full flaps can be beneficial. The rate drops slightly, but the radius drops more. Are you saying that HTC intended the rate to increase instead?
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I don't refer to the "benefit" to the turn rate, rather there is a bug where full flaps (in any aircraft) increases the drag massively, acting as a huge speed brake. This has been admitted by HTC (Pyro, or Skuzzy, or somebody admitted it).
The lift is still there, I bet, so the help while turning remains, but the turn performance is also hindered greatly by slowing the plane down well past the "stable" point.
That's the bug.
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I believe you are incorrect on that krusty
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Originally posted by Krusty
Same here. A film of this move might be informative. Anybody have one showing it in action?
Well I spent an hour offline tonight trying to get this "rudder reversal" and either I ain't doing it right or it can't be done without rudder pedals or I don't know. All I get from the rudder is yaw and/or spin, depending on the plane. No rotation whatsoever.
One thing I noticed is that when looking at the stick settings the rudder response isn't instantaneous. Kick full rudder and the response curve eventually wanders over there in like a second. The stick is performing properly, but for some reason the response looks cumulative or something ... I don't know. Maybe that's why the tail doesn't kick around like you guys get.
Was kind of hoping to figure this trick out tonight to keep me interested because I'm frankly on the verge of going back into retirement. With all the HO'ing and ramming this just isn't much fun anymore.
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Having the same issue with peda;s DoK, can't seem to get a smooth rotation over, and all I get is a yaw with a big wing drop.
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Originally posted by Gryffin
After reading this thread I tried the 109F last night. It is an amazing little plane, I was easily able to outfly all kinds of late war planes, 51s, LA7s, p47s. As long as you can get them turning they don't stand a chance.
The only problem ... how the hell do you hit anything with the crappy guns? I missed at least 5 sure kills because I couldn't land a hit with the cannon, and the MGs are worse than useless :(
Me being a regular 109 pilot in the AvA I can tell you one word of advice.... yes the F4 is nimble little ride and yes the guns are rather weak, so what you have to do in the F4 is pretend like your cowl guns are damged and only use your hub cannon... Oh and one other thing, before I fire off my cannon I like to get in REAL close as to where I stick my propeller hub in the enemy's cockpit and wake him up by popping two or three 20mm shells directly into his ear :D
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Dok, you may want to check the damping setting for the rudder. If it is up pretty high, it can have an effect like that which you described.
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I know my damping is very low, and my rudder is usually decently fast to respond, however offline I was also having the same problem. I tried to go nose high, flaps out, and to "steer" myself around with the rudder. It sort of worked, but not very well, and a straight out "bank and pull" would have pulled a tighter loop.
I'd have been a total sitting duck for sure.
Anybody got a better description on how to pull this move off?
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The only really wierd move I've ever been able to pull off was a fishtail type thing in AH1. You start a horizontal turn, then go nose up and basically cross the controls.... in some planes (spit V, A6M) your plane would kind of stay horizontal, but your tail would rotate around your nose. You'd basically almost come to a dead stop in the air, and be pointing backwards.
Then you'd stall out and go nose down.. but in theory you could whip around real fast and "HO" someone coming up behind you.
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Re-installed Saitek drivers ... damping near 0 ... that all seemed to fix the response curve.
But I'm still not seeing the kind of whip-around you guys describe. At best I get a kind of tail-slide Immelman that's very difficult to sustain and something I sure wouldn't attempt with someone hanging on my 6.
I know it's doable ... it's been done *to* me in P47's, P51's, and F4U's ... but I'm really becoming curious about why some players are getting rotation forces from their rudder input and others aren't. Maybe it's technique, I don't know, but it ain't dweebs having a problem replicating this move.
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Well I've been called a dweeb once or twice, but mostly by other dweebs :P
If somebody could illustrate this better I'm sure Dok and myself would be thankful.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Well I've been called a dweeb once or twice, but mostly by other dweebs :P
If somebody could illustrate this better I'm sure Dok and myself would be thankful.
Hehe ... I know I'll never have Urchin's or Mars's flying and shooting skills, but if there's a move that'll let me try some new things I at least want to try to learn it.
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I think that one day I might have amazing flight skills, but I fear my gunnery will forever suck :P
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Guys,
Here is a turn circle comparison for the Spit MkV and Bf109F both with full flaps.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/SpitV-109F.gif)
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Hi Badboy,
>Here is a turn circle comparison for the Spit MkV and Bf109F both with full flaps.
I'd say that means that if the Spitfire is chasing the Bf 109 in a flat circle, it would soon get into position for a deflection shot, while with the Bf 109 chasing the Spitfire, the Bf 109 would have to throttle back (or rather climb, but then it's not a flat circle any longer :-) and sacrifice turn rate in order not to overshoot.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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This is what I was trying to say in words a week ago.
Thanks Badboy.
-Blogs
Originally posted by Badboy
Guys,
Here is a turn circle comparison for the Spit MkV and Bf109F both with full flaps. ...
Badboy
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Flying full flaps in combat was NEVER happened!
Full flaps were/are for landing, specially for spit having on/off airbrake.
109 about same after 15 degrees flaps out.
Flying/fightin flaps full out should not be possible in game, only for landing.
Flaps mostly are gamin the game online; "combatflaps" beeing exeption.
puujiikoo
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Badboy,
I'd say that means that if the Spitfire is chasing the Bf 109 in a flat circle, it would soon get into position for a deflection shot,
Henning (HoHun)
That depends. If their turn circles were offset that would be the case, but that would also be true for any pair of aircraft based on the geometry of the fight alone and the attacker would achieve a guns solution every time around. However, if you assume a roughly concentric attack, the Spitfire's small turn radius advantage almost certainly won't be enough to allow him to pull lead for a shot. Particularly if the 109F driver has a good grasp of BFM, because he will be able to negate the spitfires small radius advantage by using out of plane maneuvers.
while with the Bf 109 chasing the Spitfire, the Bf 109 would have to throttle back (or rather climb, but then it's not a flat circle any longer :-) and sacrifice turn rate in order not to overshoot.
If I were the 109F driver fighting under the conditions shown in that diagram I wouldn't be concerned about an over shoot. The closure is small and the difference in radius is less than 20ft which is extremely small, and almost negligible in practice. Even with a slightly bigger turn radius deficit, the 109F would still be able to convert his turn rate advantage into a kill providing he understood what maneuvers to execute in order to get the lead required for a shot.
In both situations, if the 109F driver can force the fight nose to tail, he should win. However, one area where the Spitfire's smaller radius could be more problematic would be in nose to nose turns. That means any kind of scissors, flat, rolling or vertical. In that situation the Spitfire would fare better, but it would still be very close because, as I said before, that difference in radius is very small.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Originally posted by Badboy
Guys,
Here is a turn circle comparison for the Spit MkV and Bf109F both with full flaps.
(http://www.badz.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/SpitV-109F.gif)
Hope that helps...
Badboy
how do you find out what's going on when you do these tests? how did you manage to find out the turn rate and radii?
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I was going to say all that the 109 would have to do is a bit of vertical manuevering in the sustained turn. It has the advantage in the climb which should help it cut the corner. And if things get bad, it can still dive away.
-blogs
Originally posted by Badboy
That depends. If their turn circles were offset that would be the case, but that would also be true for any pair of aircraft based on the geometry of the fight alone and the attacker would achieve a guns solution every time around. However, if you assume a roughly concentric attack, the Spitfire's small turn radius advantage almost certainly won't be enough to allow him to pull lead for a shot. Particularly if the 109F driver has a good grasp of BFM, because he will be able to negate the spitfires small radius advantage by using out of plane maneuvers.
If I were the 109F driver fighting under the conditions shown in that diagram I wouldn't be concerned about an over shoot. The closure is small and the difference in radius is less than 20ft which is extremely small, and almost negligible in practice. Even with a slightly bigger turn radius deficit, the 109F would still be able to convert his turn rate advantage into a kill providing he understood what maneuvers to execute in order to get the lead required for a shot.
In both situations, if the 109F driver can force the fight nose to tail, he should win. However, one area where the Spitfire's smaller radius could be more problematic would be in nose to nose turns. That means any kind of scissors, flat, rolling or vertical. In that situation the Spitfire would fare better, but it would still be very close because, as I said before, that difference in radius is very small.
Hope that helps...
Badboy
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Yeah, back to this nose high stalling rudder turn thingy....
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Hi Badboy,
>However, if you assume a roughly concentric attack, the Spitfire's small turn radius advantage almost certainly won't be enough to allow him to pull lead for a shot.
Hm, I see no reason why it shouldn't. Falling back decreases the angles in the gun sight, after all.
>If I were the 109F driver fighting under the conditions shown in that diagram I wouldn't be concerned about an over shoot.
Well, it closing at all means that the angles in the gun sight increase, making a shot more difficult.
Maybe there is a way to graph this in terms of relative angle over time? You know I have always been dissatisfied with the typical manoeuvring diagrams without being able to come up with something better myself :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I have never learned to use flaps properly in the AH but the advantage of the use of full flaps might be some what unrealistic. There is not much real data sets available, the only I'm aware are NACA tests on the F2A-3 and RAE calculations on Spitfire. Both these sets indicate that at low altitude and depending on available power, the max turn rate is reached with partial flaps and above certain amount flap deflection there is not much change in the radius of the turn (infact some of the data indicate slight increase at very high flap angles).
gripen
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Originally posted by gripen
I have never learned to use flaps properly in the AH but the advantage of the use of full flaps might be some what unrealistic. There is not much real data sets available, the only I'm aware are NACA tests on the F2A-3 and RAE calculations on Spitfire. Both these sets indicate that at low altitude and depending on available power, the max turn rate is reached with partial flaps and above certain amount flap deflection there is not much change in the radius of the turn (infact some of the data indicate slight increase at very high flap angles).
My experience with the AH2 Spitfires tells me that there is little gained by using flaps for sustained turning. They can tighten up turn radius briefly, but the penalty in speed and turn rate is rather severe if kept down for longer than half of a turn. I assume that HTC models the type of flaps employed.
I can see where the added drag will hurt a Buffalo as it's very much under-powered. We have that problem with the F4F-4. Both use a simple Split-type flap, as does the Spitfire. I believe the Bf 109 uses a Plain flap, similar to that employed on the P-51. It appears that the way the Plain flap is modeled, it has a better balance between lift/drag than the Split flaps provide.
Another factor is that the flaps on Spitfire are all or nothing, whereas the 109 pilot can select how much flap he wants.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Badboy,
>However, if you assume a roughly concentric attack, the Spitfire's small turn radius advantage almost certainly won't be enough to allow him to pull lead for a shot.
Hm, I see no reason why it shouldn't. Falling back decreases the angles in the gun sight, after all.
>If I were the 109F driver fighting under the conditions shown in that diagram I wouldn't be concerned about an over shoot.
Well, it closing at all means that the angles in the gun sight increase, making a shot more difficult.
Maybe there is a way to graph this in terms of relative angle over time? You know I have always been dissatisfied with the typical manoeuvring diagrams without being able to come up with something better myself :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
While the angles decrease, there is no change to the fact that the Spitfire is already turning as tight as possible, meaning that the pilot cannot readily "pinch" it in to gain lead without negative consequence, usually in the form of sudden wing drop. When that happens, he must ease off the stick and reduce bank angle to recover. That only increases his troubles as he must then re-establish his maximum turning bank/angle. In the meanwhile, the 109 has continued around the circle and will rapidly work its way into the Spitfire's rear hemisphere. If the Spitfire continues turning in the same direction, the 109 can simply pull nose high to cut the corner and get a guns solution. If the Spitfire pilot reverses his turn, he will inevitably find that he will be crossing in front of the 109 and the resulting consequence is usually fatal.
Because the 109F-4 has marked advantage in climb rate over the Spitfire Mk.V, any time it appears that the Spitfire pilot is pinching his turn, the 109 pilot simply pulls his nose above the horizon. At the absolute limit, the SpitV cannot follow. He must ease off his turn considerably or risk an immediate accelerated stall. If that should happen the fight will be over in short order.
The problem for the Spitfire pilot is this: He must gain a guns solution before the fight degrades to a low speed lufberry. Once in a sustained turn, the Spitfire Mk.V is at distinct disadvantage against the 109F-4. A smart 109F pilot will attempt to establish a lufberry, where he can take full advantage of the 109's faster turn rate and superior climb. In most cases, the Spitfire will not enter the lufberry close to the 109's six o'clock, meaning that his chances to obtain a guns solution will be minimal. Even flying intersecting circles cannot promise the Spitfire an opportunity if the 109 pilot is alert. Again, he can force the fight "up hill" and neutralize that opportunity.
I have some films that demonstrate the above quite clearly.
If the reader follows the entire thread, he will discover that the 109F-4 does have some weaknesses that may be exploited by a skilled pilot. But even with that factored in, a dogfight beginning with equal pilots, E and altitude will probably be won by the 109F-4.
Understand that I'm not arguing that the current flight model is historically accurate. All I'm stating is that this is how it currently exists and it can be exploited to the extent that the 109F-4 is currently one of the best pure dogfighters in the game. Unless you are flying a Zero or perhaps a Hurricane, you simply cannot expect to beat the 109F-4 in a low-speed brawl. If the 109F pilot is better than you to begin with, the fight will be short and futile. Therefore, if you can identify the 109 as an F model, avoid trying to turn with it.
My regards,
Widewing
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On Widewing's recommendation in the TA I also flew the 109 F-4.
It is a tight turner and very capable. That being said, if you have stall limiter turned on you will probably think it's a POS. The F-4 turns its best on flaps right above stall, and my impression is that once you get about 20 mph above stall in turns, the elevators get mushy. If you have stall limiter turned off, the F-4 has a WICKED stall, it's ugly and scary and will catch you off guard the first few times, pretty predictable though.
It's a great plane, but I hate the visibility issues. The canopy belongs on a freaking tank.
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Hi Widewing,
>While the angles decrease, there is no change to the fact that the Spitfire is already turning as tight as possible, meaning that the pilot cannot readily "pinch" it in to gain lead without negative consequence, usually in the form of sudden wing drop.
I admit that Badboy's graph inspired me to think about a situation where one aircraft is very close to the tail of the other.
It becomes a question of geometry there, which is a bit different than when you consider a less one-sided situation.
For example, with the Me 109 20° ahead of the Spitfire in the turn, and the Spitfire passing the same point of space the Me 109 passed, the Me 109 would initially be in the line of sight of the Spitfire (assuming a 20° angle-of-attack, just for the sake of round numbers). For lack of lead, the Spitfire couldn't get any hits from that situation. However, with both planes continuing a steady turn, the Me 109 would pull away from the Spitfire and thus drop down from the centre of the Spitfire's gunsight into position for a lead shot.
(Of course, what exactly is going to happen depends on the numerical relation of both planes' speeds and turn rates, so my description applies only to one possible set of data points.)
Badboy rightly pointed out that this is the effect of non-concentric circles, but I don't think contentric circles are all that typical anyway, and so I decided to question his assessment that a slight advantage in turn rate is more important than a slight advantage in turn radius :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
For example, with the Me 109 20° ahead of the Spitfire in the turn,
Henning (HoHun)
The other day I flew some 109F v Spit engagements with Infensus in the TA. We flew a large number of separate engagements, and we swapped planes to eliminate the pilot skill factor. No matter what we did, the guy driving the Bf109F invariably won.
I think you are trying to over analyse the situation. Of course if you place the 109 in a situation where he has almost already lost, he probably will. Place him in a neutral position, and he almost certainly will win.
Go and do some engagements with a buddy, you will see that what Badboy and Widewing are saying is 100% correct.
Gunzo
4th FG
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Hi Gunzo,
>No matter what we did, the guy driving the Bf109F invariably won.
I'm quite ready to believe that :-)
However, currently I'm interested in the boffins' perspective on the affair, which supplements the question "Who won?" with the question "How could he win?" :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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The F4 will win because, as of right now, it can turn harder than the Spit 5. So if the Spit 5 is almost in a position for a shot, the F4 breaks hard into the Spit. If the Spit 5 misses that one shot, and decides to follow the F4 through the turn, he will never get another shot (unless he's got a fair amount of extra energy he can scrub off).
It is really simple actually.
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Originally posted by Widewing
My experience with the AH2 Spitfires tells me that there is little gained by using flaps for sustained turning. They can tighten up turn radius briefly, but the penalty in speed and turn rate is rather severe if kept down for longer than half of a turn. I assume that HTC models the type of flaps employed.
No idea how the drag with flaps is modeled in AH but the RAE calculated data on Spitfire gives following values at 12k (from RAE RM No. 2349):
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/852_1147553565_sflaps.jpg)
My impression is that full flap setting (85deg) in the Spitfire was purposedly adjusted to give some amount of extra drag for landing (optimal would have been around 60deg or possibly a bit less for minimum turn radius and around 30deg for the best turn rate but such setting was of course not available). Generally full flaps probably gave their best advantage at too slow speed for combat use in most cases.
gripen
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Originally posted by HoHun
I'm interested in the boffins' perspective on the affair, which supplements the question "Who won?" with the question "How could he win?" :-)
I think that has already been explained.
The note on that diagram says that the BF109F has a better turn rate and that the small difference in turn radius would be considered insignificant in comparison to the turn rate advantage. I found that to be true. The 109F can out turn the Spitfire, it is as simple as that.
You have read the theory, it is supported by post 2.07 patch experience, and it is confirmed by two trainers... what was your question again?
(http://free.hostdepartment.com/g/gunzo/Sig.gif)
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Originally posted by gripen
No idea how the drag with flaps is modeled in AH but the RAE calculated data on Spitfire gives following values at 12k (from RAE RM No. 2349):
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/852_1147553565_sflaps.jpg)
My impression is that full flap setting (85deg) in the Spitfire was purposedly adjusted to give some amount of extra drag for landing (optimal would have been around 60deg or possibly a bit less for minimum turn radius and around 30deg for the best turn rate but such setting was of course not available). Generally full flaps probably gave their best advantage at too slow speed for combat use in most cases.
gripen
Are our Spits supposed to have 3 flap settings beyond no flaps?
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Are our Spits supposed to have 3 flap settings beyond no flaps?
Wondered who was going to be first to ask :)
(http://free.hostdepartment.com/g/gunzo/Sig.gif)
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Hi Gunzo,
>You have read the theory, it is supported by post 2.07 patch experience, and it is confirmed by two trainers... what was your question again?
My question is the one you failed to answer.
By the margin you missed the point, I'd even say my question is the one you failed to read.
Kind regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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why not just give back the spit 5 the extra +16 boost is order for spit 5 to stay on par with 109F...:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Are our Spits supposed to have 3 flap settings beyond no flaps?
Those partial settings (30deg and 60deg) are calculations to study the effect of the flaps (other variables being weight, engine output, altitude etc.). There were just two flap positions in the real plane: in (0deg) and fully out (85deg).
gripen
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Originally posted by HoHun
My question is the one you failed to answer.
Nope, your question had already been answered, more than once and by more than one person. But you clearly don't understand them.
If you want a deeper insight, why not do what everyone else here does, and go to the TA and fly until you get it. That's why everyone else's questions and answers actually make sense, because they are based on a solid foundation of arena experience.
If you really want to work it out, I'd be happy to demonstrate that it works exactly as already described here. We can meet in the TA if you wish. You do have an account don't you?
Very kind regards........
(http://free.hostdepartment.com/g/gunzo/Sig.gif)
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Originally posted by Gunzo
The other day I flew some 109F v Spit engagements with Infensus in the TA. We flew a large number of separate engagements, and we swapped planes to eliminate the pilot skill factor. No matter what we did, the guy driving the Bf109F invariably won.
That's what the LW and RAF found out in Africa and over the channel too. ;)
(http://pguiller.club.fr/photos/marseille2.JPG)
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actually gunzo and i had some fights in the TA just now, and we proved the opposite. spit5 won every fight. we swapped planes several times, spit always won, either in the vert (we had one fight that ended up going from 0k through a septuple immelman to 6k or so!) or in the flat turn, where it was the clear the f4 was going faster, and therefore turning better, but due to the handling characteristics of the spit, it could fly far slower, and tighter, squeeze right inside the f4 and get some very easy close cannon shots because of the speed. at one time, even though the f4 could climb better, the torque effect and less stable stall meant that even at the top of the rope, the 109 couldnt get onto the spit. meanwhile the spit, still doing 80 mph had enough e to stay steady and get plenty of hits on the 109
on paper, the 109 should win, but due to the way the planes fly and stall, the spit comes out on top if you really take them to the edge.
should have filmed it really, made for some amazing drawn out fights, the match-up is incredible, really is hard for either plane to gain an angle. about to go into the TA again, we'll try it again i think, this time i'll record it:aok
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Pooface I think you guys were missing the specific technique to push the 109f in sustained turns without losing the handle. Stang came to the TA for a demonstration, and did find that I could walk the 109 around the circle in either direction (left or right) aginst a spitV near stall speeds. And that was starting with the spitV on my side of the circle.
Im sure Gunzo can wring as much ouf of the 109f as I can, because we also did a number of mock duels in the TA together.
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"why not just give back the spit 5 the extra +16 boost is order for spit 5 to stay on par with 109F... "
Maybe its already on par even without that +16 boost? ;)
-C+
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Hi guys,
Today's fights were a surprise to me. Pooface and I had a different result to last time. But here is the strange thing, when I did the fights before with Infensus we swapped planes to make sure it wasn't pilot skill. This time with pooface we did exactly the same, but got a different result. We also did similar aircraft fights just to make sure there wasn't any big difference in pilot skill, but they came out pretty even. Before in the flat turns the 109F was clearly superior, but today it was far more even, and we went around in circles a lot.
That also created some complications, because sometimes the circles were not lined up on center, so it wasn't clear how much was due to turn rate and how much was due to geometry. Pooface noticed this as it was happening and called it out during the fights when it occurred. Another complication was the Spitfire's smaller turn radius, which seemed to make more of a difference, a bit like the off-set turn circles, than I previously thought. Pooface said he might do some diagrams.
Then we also thought it might be because we were always getting into right hand turns, and not left hand turns as described in this thread, so we tried the other way. The 109F was better that way around and even got some early shots but in general dogfighting the Spitfire did better overall.
We agreed that it was because the Spitfire was generally easier to fly and also easier to fly at low speed, with less busy work involved with flaps, and left it at that.
The other factor we haven't considered is how well each of us adapted to the new aircraft characteristics. I know that if you fly an aircraft a lot, after a while you can squeeze more out of it, because you just seem to get in tune with it. But we were flying a fairly unfamiliar aircraft in the 109F so maybe neither of us were really getting the best out of it.
Unfortunately I have to admit I'm not so certain about the Bf109F now. It is certainly a lot better than it was, that is for sure!
(http://free.hostdepartment.com/g/gunzo/Sig.gif)
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Hi Gunzo,
>Nope, your question had already been answered, more than once and by more than one person. But you clearly don't understand them.
Check out what I actually asked, then apologize.
Thank you.
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by Murdr
Pooface I think you guys were missing the specific technique to push the 109f in sustained turns without losing the handle. Stang came to the TA for a demonstration, and did find that I could walk the 109 around the circle in either direction (left or right) aginst a spitV near stall speeds. And that was starting with the spitV on my side of the circle.
Im sure Gunzo can wring as much ouf of the 109f as I can, because we also did a number of mock duels in the TA together.
as did we. we spent 2 hours after that post aswell. all in all we must have done it for 3 hours, turning both ways, doing everything. spit was gaining and winning every time
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gunzo and i tried it again and again, switching planes multiple times, and also flying same plane duels in a lot of other planes to make sure we were on-par skill wise.
spit always won. the 109 would sometimes get close, and maybe land a hit or two, but the spit always got around and was able to empty it's guns into the 109.
what i think is going on is that the turning circles of the two planes are not in sync. the spit's tighter circle allows it to do more revolutions at the same speed, which allows it to sneak inside the 109. it took a very long time for the spit to truely get onto the 109's 6, but only a relatively short time to start getting gun solutions, eg high angle deflection shots.
it's so close that it's very hard to call. the 109 is faster and cimbs far better, so in a normal head on merge, with multiple immelmans, the 109 comes out better off. however once both planes cant go up any more, the spit can turn tighter due to it's easier flying characteristics, and it starts to get onto the 109's tail.
infact, i was getting onto gunzo's tail in the spit even after my wep ran out and his was still pentiful. it turned out after that that he had been flying with 25% fuel and i had been going with 50%. the next sortie i took 25% too and the result was even clearer. despite this, when we both flew in the same planes it was clear that we were almost identical skillwise.
the 109 has a better sustained turn on paper, but when you are actually flying in a fight the spit wins it hands down. i reckon it's due to the easier flight dynamics and the lower stall speed, which allows the spit to ease inside the 109.
just trust me on this, we did it enough to know for a fact that it wasnt down to anything but the plane-type. i'd love to try and show you guys in the TA aswell.
that being said i was amazed at how the 109 flew and turned so well. i always knew that it was fairly nimble but had no idea that it could give a spit a run for it's money:cool:
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guess you'll have to take it up with widewing or i then :)
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Originally posted by Murdr
guess you'll have to take it up with widewing or i then :)
Well, if Gunzo was trying to turn fight at 80 mph.... The Spitfire will win...
I never let it get slower than about 105 mph. No need to. Get it too slow and you surrender your advantage of turn rate.
Me; I'd spiral climb up and drop on it like a sack of rocks.
Pooface, I'll be in the TA on Monday evening around 8 PM eastern.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Pooface
gunzo and i tried it again and again, switching planes multiple times, and also flying same plane duels in a lot of other planes to make sure we were on-par skill wise.
Pooface, when you flew the 109F-4, did you guys turn off combat trim and trim manually?
My regards,
Widewing
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With another question about turn rates, seems like i've noticed the P-38 outturning Mustangs, 47's and some of those other Heavier metal planes, including the German types like the Fw 190, is this true or am i hallucinating?
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Originally posted by -pjk--
Flying full flaps in combat was NEVER happened!
Full flaps were/are for landing, specially for spit having on/off airbrake.
109 about same after 15 degrees flaps out.
Flying/fightin flaps full out should not be possible in game, only for landing.
Flaps mostly are gamin the game online; "combatflaps" beeing exeption.
puujiikoo
PJK, I didn't think full flaps were used in real life either, so some of these observations might be untrue to real life. As far as i know actual fighters only dropped combat flaps.
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rgr widewing or murdr, i'll see if i can find you some time. as for trim, i usually just let combat trim do it, im not sure about gunzo. but widewing, about the speed, both gunzo and i flew the 109 faster in the turn than we did with the spitfire, we were definitely both working the planes to the limit of our ability. the spit, flying slower obviously found it easy to get inside the 109, and although the spit couldnt actually get onto the 109's 6 or keep up with it very well for a long time, after just one full turn it was getting easy shots. on paper the 109 should win, but in a real fight it doesnt seem to go that way
i'll see if i can find you, we can try it too:) only problem being time difference
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
With another question about turn rates, seems like i've noticed the P-38 outturning Mustangs, 47's and some of those other Heavier metal planes, including the German types like the Fw 190, is this true or am i hallucinating?
depends on the pilot and the conditions but a 38 should outturn the others, especially the 190's and heavier planes, because it has a large surface area and flaps that can come down at fairly high speeds