Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Simaril on May 08, 2006, 03:41:22 PM
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I dont think so.
Captures and scores dont make for weak play. As Leviathan said elsewhere, most timid players just dont want to die. The average timid guy has stats far enough down the scale that rank is essentially irrelevant.
I think what some old timer "I remember air warrior back when..." types miss -- the camraderie of high level competition among ACM aficianados -- hass decreased due to the simple dynamics of a larger player base.
Seems to me that less intensely competitive play comes from that larger subscription base, which includes players with less fanatic commitment to simulation in air combat.
Think of it liek a softball league. When entry fees are reallly high, you get the competitive fanatics who'll pay an awful lot for the thrill of a great game -- but its hard to keep the fields cared for on what the proprieters earn. If you lower the fees, the league gets bigger and financially stable.
Course you get less of the intense semi-pro types, and more of the beer swilling-twist into the ground strikeout--drop the pop fly and fall down laughing types. They're having a blast, but they're not trying to win anything at all.
Not that there's anything wrong with that....
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Shawk has fun
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Originally posted by Simaril
more of the beer swilling-twist into the ground strikeout--drop the pop fly and fall down laughing types. They're having a blast, but they're not trying to win anything at all.
I know more than a few of those guys.
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quote:
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Originally posted by Simaril
"more of the beer swilling-twist into the ground strikeout--drop the pop fly and fall down laughing types. They're having a blast, but they're not trying to win anything at all."
I'm one of those guys; & I'm trying to win plus get a good score & gain as many perkies as I can too.....in short I'm chasing my tail.....but I enjoy it.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I think what some old timer "I remember air warrior back when..." types miss -- the camraderie of high level competition among ACM aficianados -- hass decreased due to the simple dynamics of a larger player base.
Seems to me that less intensely competitive play comes from that larger subscription base, which includes players with less fanatic commitment to simulation in air combat.
What this "old timer" misses is the camraderie of a small community. Of course, I also miss being a halfway decent player too. :)
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Score affect gameplay - Yes when someone disengages when he sees he might die because he is afraid to mess up score.
Capture affect gameplay - Yes when furball dies because tool boys have to have that field.
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I think the sole difference in the AW style of play vs the AH style, is the ability to kill from headon. That changes everything. In AW you had to work for a 6 shot or atleast a 90 degree deflection to get a kill. In here people can fly around popping people in the face and motor on. You dont get as much of the nail biting dogfights, and the number of LA7s shows that.
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"Score affect gameplay - Yes when someone disengages when he sees he might die because he is afraid to mess up score."
Well for some thats part of the simulation, too. Having the ability to disengage then re-engage at will is a strength that some fighters benefit from.
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Well for some thats part of the simulation, too. Having the ability to disengage then re-engage at will is a strength that some fighters benefit from.
Yes running is one way to see it, but then learning to recover and continue the fight from the original position and trying to regain the upper hand I value more.
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Originally posted by mars01
Yes running is one way to see it, but then learning to recover and continue the fight from the original position and trying to regain the upper hand I value more.
I guess my point is that some guys just dont care about being better at fighters. They want to shoot stuff down, the same way the weekend softball player loves to get a big hit, but they're not into the fight the same way ACM jockeys are. Where the ACM jockey hates the "easy pick" as a no-fun fight, many in the MA like to cherry pick since its safe, straightforward, and gts a kill.
That kind of stuff wont change if scores disappeared, because those guys dont have good scores to begin with. The dynamic is more "I dont wanna die" and less "i want a better number."
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The emphasis is on 'attaboys' and perks as near as I can tell. It's amazing how often you see a guy land and immediately talk about how many perks he got.
You can also count on all kinds of WTG!s when somone lands 45 kills in LA7 of ......Squadron. Getting those 'attaboys' becomes part of the drive to avoid a fight where you might have to work at it.
In the end I guess it doesn't matter to me anymore. I don't see it changing. And if you stick with the game long enough, you learn who the actual good sticks are vs those who are the experts at score whoring.
I guess I owe it to good old RAGS from my AW days. With him around it took all of about a week to figure out that score meant nothing :)
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You guys want realistic rides, but don't want people to fly realistic. Knowing when to retreat is part of real wars & war based games. Guys who force dogfights right to the bitter end are, no different then the guys who dive bomb in lancs, and bail.
JMFJ
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Originally posted by JMFJ
You guys want realistic rides, but don't want people to fly realistic. Knowing when to retreat is part of real wars & war based games. Guys who force dogfights right to the bitter end are, no different then the guys who dive bomb in lancs, and bail.
JMFJ
Realistic? It's a game, not war. As soon as someone really dies, then talk to me about realistic.
We're sitting at our computers, not too far from the fridge, TV, stereo or the bathroom for that matter. Not too much problem to set the autopilot and wander around if you want to.
When's the last time you logged on, crawled inside your refrigerator or freezer to get the temps just right, while sucking on oxygen with 3 layers of clothing on, while flying for 8 hours unable to stand up, to cover those bombers with the chance you'll never see an enemy plane? Have you ever had your engine fall apart for no reason while you are playing? Any chance someone snuck in the room and shot you with a 45 so the blood is real on your screen?
And I think you could find cases where guys got stuck into dogfights right to the bitter end, while I doubt you'll find me an instance where a Lanc pilot dive bombed a hanger and bailed out of a perfectly good plane over enemy territory. I kinda think his crew would have been a bit angry about that :)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
In the end I guess it doesn't matter to me anymore. I don't see it changing. And if you stick with the game long enough, you learn who the actual good sticks are vs those who are the experts at score whoring.:)
If you are talkin about overall rank I would agree it's a worthless rank, but the Fighter & GV ranking is pretty accurate (not 100% accurate) but close. The guys at the top you will have to work pretty hard to send them back to the tower.
The Attack & Bomber Rankings are a joke at best.
JMFJ
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Well then let me be more specific what is wrong with someone wanting to run, when outmatched or outnumbered?
You should reread my post I noted retreating was part of real wars & WAR BASED GAMES
JMFJ
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Originally posted by JMFJ
Well then let me be more specific what is wrong with someone wanting to run, when outmatched or outnumbered?
JMFJ
That's up to them :)
I think the point folks have been trying to make though, is it's hard to get better if you never take a chance and dive in.
Since no one dies and planes are free, why not? I think the concern is that folks get too caught up in worrying about score, rank, perks etc that they forget to fight a bit.
Again, in the end it is up to them, but it's too bad if the fear of losing robs them of the fun it can be to survive a fight when you didn't think you would.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
That's up to them :)
I think the point folks have been trying to make though, is it's hard to get better if you never take a chance and dive in.
Since no one dies and planes are free, why not? I think the concern is that folks get too caught up in worrying about score, rank, perks etc that they forget to fight a bit.
Again, in the end it is up to them, but it's too bad if the fear of losing robs them of the fun it can be to survive a fight when you didn't think you would.
I agree, if you don't challenge yourself against better sticks you will never become a better stick. But for those that don't want to play that way, I don't feel it makes them a negative addition to the game. Which is how they are often portrayed, not necessarily in this thread but in general.
JMFJ
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I agree the focus on atta-boys and perks has skewed things. But there needs to be some kind of scoring system, and this is better than anything else I've seen. At least it promotes offense instead of defense.
But to acheive the "goal" as set out by the scoring system, well, the players have found the optimizations. Horde. HO. Ram. Vultch. Pork. Lather, rinse, repeat. The proliferation of people relying on HO'ing and ramming is getting pretty bad. Some don't care about getting better, but I think a large number realize they can "win" without putting in all that effort, so why bother doing the work?
The impact of a dead barracks in terms of number of affected players gives the porker a lot more power to affect overall gameplay than he should have. Likewise that ground kills are counted the same as air kills for perks promotes the "3-passes and out" runway vultch dweebs.
It's not that the current system is so bad, its that the style of play has been optimized to it and that is eroding the quality of gameplay. So some adjustments are in order.
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JMFJ (with all due respect and IMHO),
The scores are easily manipulated by anyone who tries to manipulate them. I can increase my scores drastically by simply flying for score at the expense of fun...but that style of gameplay is a road to burnout and frustration for me.
I see nothing wrong with using superior speed and escaping a gangbang. But in general, if your plane is capable of getting away from an enemy due to a performance advantage (speed or climb) then the same performance advantage could be used to kill the enemy rather than just run away. I fly with a bunch of T&B experten, but I get irritated when every spit-dweeb in the MA insists I turnfight him with my Typhoon. In my opinion...if you stretch out to say within about d2.0 to d.25 then you are extending for another attack, of course if you just keep "extending" indefinitely then you are being too timid. Again, in my opinion...runners are the ones who travel entire sectors in a superior aircraft avoiding a 1v1, I have chased them out to where I lose their icon and end up chasing a dot, usually back to his base/friends. I just don't get that behavior at all.
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ill run when i ussually get into a pointless turning fight with a plane that has a better turn rate then mine, then just try to get as much distace as possible and re engage.
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Makes you wonder if there would be a way to have a 'no scoring zone' within a certain distance of an airfield. You could still vulch to your heart's content, but they wouldn't count towards kills. The 'attaboys" would drop considerably as would the number of 10 kill runs showing up on the screen.
I know it's a never happen thing, but it was fun to think about for a minute :)
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I see nothing wrong with using superior speed and escaping a gangbang. But in general, if your plane is capable of getting away from an enemy due to a performance advantage (speed or climb) then the same performance advantage could be used to kill the enemy rather than just run away.
Bingo!
Extending to 2 - 2.5 is a bit tho :D
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
ill run when i ussually get into a pointless turning fight with a plane that has a better turn rate then mine, then just try to get as much distace as possible and re engage.
And that's a lot different then the guys who blow in at light speed in their LA7, HO and run.
If I'm out and about in my 38G (since the last patch) and get stuck in down low with a Spit or N1K and the fight is starting to get slow, I'll nose down and try and get some distance and speed before getting back into it.
You are still looking to fight, but you aren't going to fight the better turn fighting birds fight. Nothing wrong with that.
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Originally posted by Edbert
but I get irritated when every spit-dweeb in the MA insists I turnfight him with my Typhoon.[/B]
That's exactly what I'm talkin about some guys take it as insult that I don't want to turn fight with a plane I know is a lost cause in turnfights. So I grab some E and come back to finish the job. As soon as I won't turn fight with a plane that is not really a turnfighter they start forcing HO's. In which case if i'm lucky enough to survive I'm a B&Z HO Dweeb. The community's incessant double standards, and my way is the right belief's grow tiresome.
Now if i'm in a typhy and another guy is in a typhy that's different, but a typhy v.s. a spit in a turn fight..........give me a break. Maybe levi could pull it off but i'm no levi.
JMFJ
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
But there needs to be some kind of scoring system
Why?
Serious question.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Why?
Serious question.
- oldman
Go back to the AvA forums!!!!!:furious
:D
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That's exactly what I'm talkin about some guys take it as insult that I don't want to turn fight with a plane I know is a lost cause in turnfights. So I grab some E and come back to finish the job. As soon as I won't turn fight with a plane that is not really a turnfighter they start forcing HO's.
Do you extend max 2.5 or do you go out of range all together and then come back and cherry the guy when he is fighting someone more agressive or should I say more of an even match.
I have no problem with guys that extend to get a better position, but still keep the heat on. It is easy enough to tell which is which.
The community's incessant double standards, and my way is the right belief's grow tiresome.
"Some guys", has now turned into "the community", your making molehills into mountains. If your not a runner why do you care?
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Why?
Serious question.
- oldman
Because the dweebs demand it.
Serious answer. :)
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You need some kind of scoring system because, well, it's a game. There needs to be some metric for "victory." Some yardstick for competition. The experienced people outgrow these, of course, and see k/d or whatever as a meaningless number.
Ground kills are probably pretty easy to deal with. Just add in like a 5-second timer from the time a plane leaves the ground (we know this trigger is detected because that's when external views are disabled). Until that 5 seconds expires, the kill doesn't count for perks or streaks - but still counts for k/d for all concerned. 5 seconds is enough to get your wheels up and make at least a 90 degree turn. So for base captures, you'll still get vultched as soon as you appear - but the attackers won't be racking up the gaudy perks/streaks in the process.
And for the guy vultching for score, well, he has to wait until the target isn't a grape for it to pay off. Boo. Hoo.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
....We have to have a score system...
Originally posted by Oldman731
Why?
Serious question.
- oldman
Actually, AvA gives good evidence that getting rid of the scoring wouldnt make a huge difference in play.
The times I've tried AvA, there've been a good group of guys who really like the fight and will switch sides, etc to keep a good one going.
But when those guys arent on, the high alt dweebery, the running from fights, the ganging, and the picking are every bit as bad as in the MA. At least in the MA, there's more than one place to find bad guys to fight....
I really think frightened flying comes more from lower skills than from score chasing. Even when no one keeps track of points, like in AvA, the same unaggressive behaviors happen.
Bottom line: personal choice determines aggressiveness. When some guys keep dying, they'll try to learn why and get better. When other guys die lots, they just say, "when I get into a fight I always lose -- so I'll stop fighting and gang or pick."
Scores or no scores.
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Actually I don't even usually make it 2.5, before re-engaging, usually just enough to take away there turn fighting advantage.
Your probably right, tagging the community for the loud few is probably an embelishment. Cause it is usually the few guys who are bad losers & worse winners that scream the loudest about hipocritical views.
I care cause my parole officer said I need to start participating in intellegent debate. Rather than kicking my neighbors pets. Why do you care? hehehe
JMFJ
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I care cause my parole officer said I need to start participating in intellegent debate. Rather than kicking my neighbors pets. Why do you care? hehehe
LOL. I don't unless I am fighting one.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Actually, AvA gives good evidence that getting rid of the scoring wouldnt make a huge difference in play.
The times I've tried AvA, there've been a good group of guys who really like the fight and will switch sides, etc to keep a good one going.
But when those guys arent on, the high alt dweebery, the running from fights, the ganging, and the picking are every bit as bad as in the MA. At least in the MA, there's more than one place to find bad guys to fight....
...
And then there's the scenario model where people are forced into situations they'd run from in a free-form environment. But forced into them in a "Fair and Balanced" ([tm] Fox Networks, A Halliburton Company) way. In events there are scores - usually plenty of 'em - and these guide the flow of play by dictating what's important to blow up and what ain't.
The whole "timid flying" deal seems to have changed. It used to just be people running if they didn't have at least a 5K bulge, 2:1 odds, or a serious turn-rate advantage. Now people run if they don't think they can whip around quick enough for their HO shot. And that's where they need 3K of room if they're moving at speed - they need to do a 180 one way or another, then regain enough speed so they won't get lead-turned on the HO pass, then stabilize their shot at 1200 out.
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I could care less about my score or rank. I dont fly buffs, score some as but not doing toolshedding for attack, or do gv that much except osty to defend a field so I will never have a score in the top 100 etc. Only thing I fly is fighter and if my fighter rank is high so be it but I dont change my style of flying just so I can have a good fighter rank. If it just happens to be that I get in the top 10 or better for a fighter rank so be but thats just me flying my p38 mostly, some 51, and perk planes. I dont put any other plane as fighter but put them as attack such as my nik.
See many people doing just BnZ which you cant really do in the 38 because of compression so you are not able to fly the 10k above the fight like you can in a 51 or dora. Not able to run away from everything in a 38 like a lgay7 can or a 51. Flying 38 you eventually get slow so you have to learn to be able to fight and improve you flying skills.
If I happen to get kills and land it so be it, if I dont oh well. Im not going change how I fly just so I can get a high rank or steal peoples' kills or BnZ in lame planes just to see my name in lights. I fly unorthodox in a p38 getting down and dirty at low alts in FT and fighing 2v1s or more in my 38. By flying so unorthodox I learn new moves such as new reversals.
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I'll say this when i came here as a newb just a month ago i was horrified and put off by all the sh$% talking and unfriendly competition, it seemed a bit vicsious, i almost didn't subscribe because of it, i just wanted to have fun. I think some of you act a little stupid, none of you are real fighter pilots, or just real pilots in general yet you act like god's gift to aviation playing a game, it's really silly. I suck totally and realize it's a game chill out maybe if some of you went to the real topgun in real life and got waxed for real maybe you'd stop bragging about a stupid game. I almost still want to quit my subscription because of this atmosphere and attitude sometime, will you just kill me and not rub my face in it, it makes the game not fun, that's why newbs run from you people, and then you complain that we don't fight the way you want us to fight, screw you!:rofl
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
I'll say this when i came here as a newb just a month ago i was horrified and put off by all the sh$% talking and unfriendly competition, it seemed a bit vicsious, i almost didn't subscribe because of it, i just wanted to have fun. I think some of you act a little stupid, none of you are real fighter pilots, or just real pilots in general yet you act like god's gift to aviation playing a game, it's really silly. I suck totally and realize it's a game chill out maybe if some of you went to the real topgun in real life and got waxed for real maybe you'd stop bragging about a stupid game. I almost still want to quit my subscription because of this atmosphere and attitude sometime, will you just kill me and not rub my face in it, it makes the game not fun, that's why newbs run from you people, and then you complain that we don't fight the way you want us to fight, screw you!:rofl
Funny _hit and true. Some players forget to take the “Red Pill” (From Matrix Movie) LedPig. :aok
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I'll say this when i came here as a newb just a month ago i was horrified and put off by all the sh$% talking and unfriendly competition, it seemed a bit vicsious, i almost didn't subscribe because of it, i just wanted to have fun. I think some of you act a little stupid, none of you are real fighter pilots, or just real pilots in general yet you act like god's gift to aviation playing a game, it's really silly. I suck totally and realize it's a game chill out maybe if some of you went to the real topgun in real life and got waxed for real maybe you'd stop bragging about a stupid game. I almost still want to quit my subscription because of this atmosphere and attitude sometime, will you just kill me and not rub my face in it, it makes the game not fun, that's why newbs run from you people, and then you complain that we don't fight the way you want us to fight, screw you!
Yeah I'll talk to you in 5 years, when you have surpassed your newbness and have a hard time finding a decent fight. Then we'll pull up your little spew here and see what you think LOLH.
Horrified of BBs banter, "Oh the Humanity" LOLH I guess you got the "A"
in drama class hahahaha.
BTW there are quite a few real life pilots in this game. Spend a little more time learning rather than spouting off and you'll have a better idea what your talking about. LOLHROTFF.
Oh and get it strait, nobody complains about anyone who fights. Fight any way you want, but just fight. :rolleyes: Run and you aren't fighting, dive for your ack and you aren't fighting, put up the best fight you can win or lose and you are fighting.:aok
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ledpig... do like you did in dungeons and dragons and be the princess.. Tell everyone here you are a girl and use a girl handle like pinkkitty or something and most of the people here will treat you much better.
You don't like the way people talk here so you tell everyone "screw you"? yep... go for the girl persona...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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See who responds, My point exactly BTW I am a real pilot.
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
See who responds, My point exactly BTW I am a real pilot.
That does not address the issue that you raised where you complain that folks speak in offensive terms and conclude with a "screw you".
Regarding your pilothood...is that your personal aircraft in your avatard? I ask because the one in Mars' IS his personal aircraft.
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See who responds, My point exactly BTW I am a real pilot.
You didn't have a point, just a whine so it should be - "See my whine exactly" LOLH.
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Originally posted by Lazs2
ledpig... do like you did in dungeons and dragons and be the princess.. Tell everyone here you are a girl and use a girl handle like pinkkitty or something and most of the people here will treat you much better.
Originally posted by mars01
Horrified of BBs banter, "Oh the Humanity" LOLH I guess you got the "A"
in drama class hahahaha.
Originally posted by Edbert
Regarding your pilothood...is that your personal aircraft in your avatard?
Originalally posted by Mars01
You didn't have a point, just a whine so it should be - "See my whine exactly" LOLH
Ledpig.......
SEE WHAT I MEAN Ledpig.......
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
Originally posted by mars01
Horrified of BBs banter, "Oh the Humanity" LOLH I guess you got the "A"
in drama class hahahaha.
Originally posted by Edbert
Regarding your pilothood...is that your personal aircraft in your avatard?
Originalally posted by Mars01
You didn't have a point, just a whine so it should be - "See my whine exactly" LOLH
See what i mean [/B]
No. All I see is that you have as much trouble figuring out the BBS coad as you do making a point.
What WAS your point?
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I have more fun now, not worrying about my score. Played this game for 5 years. Seems like when I tried to not get shot down, and then did, it was not fun. One thing is certain, in this game you will be shot down. So at least for me, I enjoy the game and play to relax.
Another way to look at it is. If someone shoots me down, I look at it as they like me enough to bother. It ain't real, it's a game. Enjoy it.
Les
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What’s so juvenile? You are crying because you come into a community, have not spent enough time here to really understand the dynamics that are in play, but yet you spout off like you have a clue.
Maybe what you have perceived as horrified and put off by all the sh$% talking and unfriendly competition, it seemed a bit vicsious
was in reality friendly ribbing by guys whom have been here much longer than a month. I.E. my first response to you, "I'll talk to you in 5 years".
You have made some absurd accusations in your original post,I think some of you act a little stupid, none of you are real fighter pilots, or just real pilots in general yet you act like god's gift to aviation playing a game, it's really silly.
Again, do you think maybe you need to stay a little longer and start to understand the dynamic here between people first?
Who is rubbing your face in anything? So you got spanked and someone gave you a little crap for it and your crying foul and telling everyone to "Screw Off" hmmm.
We were all new, we all might have gone through a little of what you mention. Most of us sat back and got a feel for the reality of what was going on before we stepped on our Peepees. Maybe you should relax, enjoy the game and not be so thin skinned.
Yes some people are Aholes but a lot of people are just having fun breaking each others balls now and then. A lot of what you read here is tounge in cheek.
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Originally posted by Edbert
No. All I see is that you have as much trouble figuring out the BBS coad as you do making a point.
What WAS your point?
What are you in Kindergarten are something?
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Originally posted by Leslie
I have more fun now, not worrying about my score. Played this game for 5 years. Seems like when I tried to not get shot down, and then did, it was not fun. One thing is certain, in this game you will be shot down. So at least for me, I enjoy the game and play to relax.
Another way to look at it is. If someone shoots me down, I look at it as they like me enough to bother. It ain't real, it's a game. Enjoy it.
Les
Ledpig.......
Leslie i'm with you on that :aok
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also.. you might find that a lot of the people you think are rude to your little persona are or were "real pilots".
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Oh and get it strait, nobody complains about anyone who fights. Fight any way you want, but just fight. Run and you aren't fighting, dive for your ack and you aren't fighting, put up the best fight you can win or lose and you are fighting
If only that was true; it would make the game much more fun. I see Ledpig's point. People on this game do trash talk other players that are not "their buddies", I have had one guy inparticular P.M. me & threaten to come to my home and kill me & burn down my house ( :lol ). All because I dropped troops on a T.T. base he was hangar camping, I had only been playing a month or so; I didn't understand T.T. & F.T. bases were sacred & to be worshiped & some of the guys I asked who had been playing a while said "drop the troops"
There is a thread in here right now about HOW the fight is conducted, some people are just never happy & it translates into this imaginary world; if we're not careful someone is going to sue HTC & demand the company hire a full time psychiatrist to deal with our emotional issues.:noid
look, if you see someone on the edge of space in a P-51 looking to cherry pick, it's becasue the plane is an excellent boom & zoomer, it isn't personal & they are just using the strengths of their chosen ride to their advantage, nothing more. And if they run...maybe they are low on fuel? or ammo? or their wife is yelling at them that it's time to go to the kids honor roll ceremony;)
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look, if you see someone on the edge of space in a P-51 looking to cherry pick, it's becasue the plane is an excellent boom & zoomer, it isn't personal & they are just using the strengths of their chosen ride to their advantage, nothing more. And if they run...maybe they are low on fuel? or ammo? or their wife is yelling at them that it's time to go to the kids honor roll ceremony
Well Bren, like I said there are Aholes in this game like everywhere else on the planet and most people who stay longer than a month can separate them out pretty fast. With that said.
No one is talking about Cherry Pickers. We all know they exists and we live with them. The problem is, when a cherry picker cries because someone called em a Cherry Picker. You don't like it, learn how to fight with your P51.
We all know when someone is running due to ammo or fuel and do not want to engage. So forget about all these guys.
When I talk about runners, they are the guys that engaged, blew all their advantages and instead of triing to fly their plane to the edge and regain the upper hand they just off and run. Sure it's their 15 bucks, blah, blah, blah.
But what is the worst that is going to happen? Maybe the learn something and die or maybe they learn something and win. Oh the horror LOL.
As for Leadforbrains - All everyone here is telling him, is to relax get to know the dynamics of this game and the community before he goes wetting his pants.
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I run because I'm a coward, and that's always bothered me. I've been shot down like that before. Thank God I don't tune to channel 200.:D
Les
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LOL Leslie
But what feels worse, getting shot down fighting you arse off or getting shot down running your arse off? :D
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I enjoy the land grab focus............
It could be better modelled..........
It could move combat away from the airfield focus......
I do not enjoy massive furballs............ 1v1's, 2 v 2's or even a local mish mash of upto 7 or 8 players spread around a smallish area is fun.
But when furballs get to silly numbers the level of SA required is just OTT for my enjoyment.
I agree the attaboys become driving forces re combat style and ac choice.
I tend to think that attaboys should be subject to a perk threshold.
e.g IF (kills>1 AND perk >2),SYS REP,0
This way ac choice may tend toward those with higher ENY values.
I tend to see score as a method for the individual to measure stuff against him/herself. Whilst we all get different kicks out the game any other comparison is pretty useless IMO.
I do not think score is a major driving force for game play.
It is for a comparative few but I think the attaboys are far more influential.
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Well Bren, like I said there are Aholes in this game like everywhere else on the planet and most people who stay longer than a month can separate them out pretty fast. With that said.
No one is talking about Cherry Pickers. We all know they exists and we live with them. The problem is, when a cherry picker cries because someone called em a Cherry Picker. You don't like it, learn how to fight with your P51.
You didn't catch the part where I said "There is a thread in here right now about HOW the fight is conducted" - SEE Jaxxos "NOTE" thread. I thought you would get it without me spelling it out.
Also; I have been here nearly 2 years & I still haven't seperated out the "Aholes" as you put it; in the MA, heck I don't even try. But here in the boards I have seen who is & who isn't, because I can look at all someones posts & see their general attitude.
I tune 200 out unless I want to congratulate someone or give them some kudos or a gentle ribbing. And I SURE AS **** don't P.M. someone just to complain & threaten.
Maybe after I have your experience I will have the ability to know what you know, because I can't tell 100% of the time why someone is running. It is just my best guess until I become omniscient ( as I assume a lot of the folks who post in the BBS are ). I get the feeling some of the people who yammer on & on in the BBS & on 200 are looking over my shoulder.
My dad has twelve brothers & sisters & out of those twelve, seven are pilots & three of the others are married to pilots. ( a couple have combat experience ) One of those, an uncle by marriage, builds his own planes too. I have shown this game to several of them & they all laugh & start telling me how this video game is nothing like flying for real.
I'm no child; I'm forty years old, so as an adult & father of two teenage girls, I get irritated by the childish arguements. But, I am immature enough to be in here wasting time & money like everyone else! Here's a thought, maybe it's gamey because it is a game.:eek:
I suppose I'll just have to agree to disagree with the majority of players, because I'll never see it from the majorities point of view, esspecially the arrogant "I want to dictate how other people play - snatch my toys & go home" people. I guess I'm teetering on the edge of being too mature for this nonsense :rofl
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You didn't catch the part where I said "There is a thread in here right now about HOW the fight is conducted" - SEE Jaxxos "NOTE" thread. I thought you would get it without me spelling it out.
Also; I have been here nearly 2 years & I still haven't seperated out the "Aholes" as you put it; in the MA, heck I don't even try. But here in the boards I have seen who is & who isn't, because I can look at all someones posts & see their general attitude.
I tune 200 out unless I want to congratulate someone or give them some kudos or a gentle ribbing. And I SURE AS **** don't P.M. someone just to complain & threaten.
Maybe after I have your experience I will have the ability to know what you know, because I can't tell 100% of the time why someone is running. It is just my best guess until I become omniscient ( as I assume a lot of the folks who post in the BBS are ). I get the feeling some of the people who yammer on & on in the BBS & on 200 are looking over my shoulder.
My dad has twelve brothers & sisters & out of those twelve, seven are pilots & three of the others are married to pilots. ( a couple have combat experience ) One of those, an uncle by marriage, builds his own planes too. I have shown this game to several of them & they all laugh & start telling me how this video game is nothing like flying for real.
I'm no child; I'm forty years old, so as an adult & father of two teenage girls, I get irritated by the childish arguements. But, I am immature enough to be in here wasting time & money like everyone else! Here's a thought, maybe it's gamey because it is a game.
I suppose I'll just have to agree to disagree with the majority of players, because I'll never see it from the majorities point of view, esspecially the arrogant "I want to dictate how other people play - snatch my toys & go home" people. I guess I'm teetering on the edge of being too mature for this nonsense
I knew what thread you were talking about, so go post in that thread, I am talking about this thread.
So what is your point?
You just want to cry about people that cry?
What is with the resume? So you and your ilk think this game is a joke, who cares? It seems a lot of other people enjoy it.
So you can't tell who the Aholes are, that is my fault? You can't tell who the runners are, that is my fault? So people that can, you have labled as "omniscient". Sheesh take the pill dude.
Maybe I am missreading your tone, but what I get from your last post is one of yammering disgust. And your lecturing on how others act.:rolleyes:
It would be nice if people such as yourself and Led actually acted like you wish everyone would act. Instead you guys complain about how everyone is acting sop childish and you guys then do the same.:rofl
It's amazing how some people get their panties all bunched up and start freaking out. LOLH:rofl
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Originally posted by Brenjen
I suppose I'll just have to agree to disagree with the majority of players
Actually you don't. These BB guys that try to dictate what a good fight is, and what the best way to play the game is, are the minority. Party on Bren.
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These BB guys that try to dictate what a good fight is, and what the best way to play the game is
Who's trying dictate anything? Find one thread where I have said everyone must play this game this way?
You guys like to put words in peoples mouths then cry about it. What is today cry baby day?:rofl
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Uh ... what was the original question again?
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If you run to gain a superior advantage fine, if you run because your scarred of getting shot down, oh just play the game!
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knew what thread you were talking about, so go post in that thread, I am talking about this thread.
This thread - that thread, we all play the same game, & you said "Oh and get it strait, nobody complains about anyone who fights. Fight any way you want, but just fight."
Yes they do.
You just want to cry about people that cry?So you and your ilk think this game is a joke, who cares? It seems a lot of other people enjoy it.
Who's cying, sounds like you are. Why are you so touchy? I never said the game was a joke, I said it's A GAME.
So you can't tell who the Aholes are, that is my fault?
No & I never said it was :lol
You can't tell who the runners are, that is my fault?
*SEE ABOVE
So people that can, you have labled as "omniscient". Sheesh take the pill dude.Maybe I am missreading your tone, but what I get from your last post is one of yammering disgust. And your lecturing on how others act
I was kidding, Who is it that needs to take a pill?. "yammering disgust and your lecturing on how others act" :huh ROFLMAO...I never instructed anyone to do anything...that's your & the B.K's responsibility, not mine. I'm just having my say on a subject just like you, don't like it? Too bad.
It would be nice if people such as yourself and Led actually acted like you wish everyone would act
I do, do you?
In my first post I was actually agreeing with you, I just added that I do understand where Ledpig is coming from. I see you are the very "type" of childish whiney person I don't like. It would be beneath me to argue with you after you have made that point perfectly clear. So here's a tissue for you C-YA!
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Although Ive been more careful this campaign, I usually prefer fighting outnumbered than to run. Even if I die, I prefer it over running all the time. There are times when its just stupid to stay, but 3 on ones are fun to try. Sometimes you kill one or two and those victories are so much more satisfying than when I pick a guy here or there.
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Originally posted by Hoarach
If I happen to get kills and land it so be it, if I dont oh well. Im not going change how I fly just so I can get a high rank or steal peoples' kills
so you dont "steal kills" eh?
well when a fellow countryman is 400 behind a con and firing
and suddenly your p38 pops inbetween the two it may not
be a "kill steal" in your mind but it certainly is inconsiderate.
this was not 1 isolated occurence ...happened several times
a few weeks ago when i was flying for the Knights.
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Maybe I am missreading your tone,
Reading Is Fundamental :aok
someone needs to pull on their little string.:aok
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If it hasnt lost flight capacity (wing or empennage), it isnt dead yet and its not "your kill" to steal. If someone else gets their faster than you can kill it, then was it really "your" kill to begin with?
That being said, shooting at a fuselage without wings IS lame-o kill stealing.
Landing pings, or getting it burning, doesnt make it "yours."
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OK! WHO STOLE mars? COFFEE?.......;)
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LOL Goose,
I just don't understand why people come into these BBs, get all mad and type the crap they do, then turn around and say oh I was just kidding couldn't you tell. LOLH WTF
Ask a guy a couple of questions, disagree with them, and they freak out. Then they try to paint you as the nut job. LOLH.
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Yeah, who would've figured you were like that? Oh woops, I was supposed to ignore you.:lol
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OK Bren,
So where did I so offend you in my original post to you??
The problem is, when a cherry picker cries because someone called em a Cherry Picker. You don't like it, learn how to fight with your P51.
Was it this? Because the "You" was not refering to you Bren, it was refering to the Cherry Picker.
Your response was angry, argumentative and whiny and you have just degraded from there. Sure you can pretend that you weren't getting mad, but your type and actions say otherwise. I am not going to drop to your level and I will leave you at that.:aok
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Mars01 said: "Oh and get it strait, nobody complains about anyone who fights. Fight any way you want, but just fight. Run and you aren't fighting, dive for your ack and you aren't fighting, put up the best fight you can win or lose and you are fighting"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brenjen said:
"If only that was true; it would make the game much more fun. I see Ledpig's point. People on this game do trash talk other players that are not "their buddies", I have had one guy inparticular P.M. me & threaten to come to my home and kill me & burn down my house ( ). All because I dropped troops on a T.T. base he was hangar camping, I had only been playing a month or so; I didn't understand T.T. & F.T. bases were sacred & to be worshiped & some of the guys I asked who had been playing a while said "drop the troops"
There is a thread in here right now about HOW the fight is conducted, some people are just never happy & it translates into this imaginary world; if we're not careful someone is going to sue HTC & demand the company hire a full time psychiatrist to deal with our emotional issues.
look, if you see someone on the edge of space in a P-51 looking to cherry pick, it's becasue the plane is an excellent boom & zoomer, it isn't personal & they are just using the strengths of their chosen ride to their advantage, nothing more. And if they run...maybe they are low on fuel? or ammo? or their wife is yelling at them that it's time to go to the kids honor roll ceremony"
Now where in that reply was I angry, argumentative, offended or whiny?
You said it yourself; Reading Is Fundamental. Maybe you should try it.:aok
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Bren I have no problem with your original reply, nor did I say I had.
If you slow down and stop letting your emotion run you will see what I said:
Since we are already talking about
The problem is, when a cherry picker cries because someone called em a Cherry Picker. You don't like it, learn how to fight with your P51.
The qoute above, from me, followed your original response.
If you think about it and read my last post correctly you will come to the correct conlusion, that when I said...
Your response was angry, argumentative and whiny
I was talking about this response...
You didn't catch the part where I said "There is a thread in here right now about HOW the fight is conducted" - SEE Jaxxos "NOTE" thread. I thought you would get it without me spelling it out.
Also; I have been here nearly 2 years & I still haven't seperated out the "Aholes" as you put it; in the MA, heck I don't even try. But here in the boards I have seen who is & who isn't, because I can look at all someones posts & see their general attitude.
I tune 200 out unless I want to congratulate someone or give them some kudos or a gentle ribbing. And I SURE AS **** don't P.M. someone just to complain & threaten.
Maybe after I have your experience I will have the ability to know what you know, because I can't tell 100% of the time why someone is running. It is just my best guess until I become omniscient ( as I assume a lot of the folks who post in the BBS are ). I get the feeling some of the people who yammer on & on in the BBS & on 200 are looking over my shoulder.
My dad has twelve brothers & sisters & out of those twelve, seven are pilots & three of the others are married to pilots. ( a couple have combat experience ) One of those, an uncle by marriage, builds his own planes too. I have shown this game to several of them & they all laugh & start telling me how this video game is nothing like flying for real.
I'm no child; I'm forty years old, so as an adult & father of two teenage girls, I get irritated by the childish arguements. But, I am immature enough to be in here wasting time & money like everyone else! Here's a thought, maybe it's gamey because it is a game.
I suppose I'll just have to agree to disagree with the majority of players, because I'll never see it from the majorities point of view, esspecially the arrogant "I want to dictate how other people play - snatch my toys & go home" people. I guess I'm teetering on the edge of being too mature for this nonsense
YES RIF
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Dude - you need serious help with that mental disorder where you skip about here & there. :p
Meet me in the D.A. - I'll teach you to respect your betters :rofl
Edit: consider yourself popped in the chops with a white glove...not.
To accomodate your lack of a sense of humor and autistic tendencies; I'm kidding
-
Nice try Bren,
How is going from your post to my post to your post jumping around. Sheesh.
Anyway, Apology accepted. LOLH
I'll meet you in the DA, looking forward to it.
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No apology was given ( more of that mental disorder cropping up ) but
non-the-less.
"I'll meet you in the DA, looking forward to it"
Mars...read this to yourself twice before you say anything --->"To accomodate your lack of a sense of humor and autistic tendencies; I'm kidding"
I have no desire to D.A. anyone, I'm no competition & I have no AH ego to boost.
I am not, let me get the quote right; "angry, argumentative, offended or whiny"
But I do now apologize for saying; "I see you are the very "type" of childish whiney person I don't like. It would be beneath me to argue with you after you have made that point perfectly clear. So here's a tissue for you C-YA!"
A: Because I didn't stop when I should have
&
B:Because I don't know you so I shouldn't have said you were childish & whiney
I'm sure if we were to have a discussion face to face it wouldn't turn out much better. So I do apologize for those two things & if we meet in the M.A. I hope I can give you a decent fight ( I don't fly the P-51 by the way ) I prefer low turn fights to B&Z.
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I was also just kidding about the apology going along with your tongue and cheek reply.
Anyway there is no bad blood here, afterall this is just a BBs.
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
I think some of you act a little stupid, none of you are real fighter pilots, or just real pilots
Several real pilots play this game. And one Flys F-15s.
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And we used to have a CIA F-16 pilot... but he got stung by a scorpion and had to quit life.
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Going on what Tilt said, I totally agree the attaboys are influencing people to fly planes like the lgay7. They are able to fly that plane and get away form the furball without much worry. What Ive noticed though not many that fly the la7 get more than 5 kills the most. Usually its those that fly the more challanging planes that are worth congratulating on such as the 38, 47, etc. Planes that arent easily able to get away from fights and still able to get many kills should get the attaboys more.
I wont give a or a wtg to a pilot that think ooh I got 8 kills in a lgay7, just equals ez mode plane and not taking much skill. In a way its not so bad because they wont get that many perks which too many people think are so important. Once that ENY limiter kicks in not many know what other plane they can fly and hardly get a kill.
Just shows that too many people require ez mode planes. Not trying to be offensive or anything but these ez mode planes are really not commenderable as it doesnt require much skill.
Not trying to hijack this thread but anything that has a ENY of 5 should be perked including lgay7, dweebfire 16, and all planes with ENY of 5. Most of those planes that have a ENY of 5 are ez mode and cant think of one that isnt except maybe the 152 but not saying it shouldnt be.
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The perk system is fundamentally flawed, in my opinion. The only perk planes that don't have a corresponding "free plane" are the 262 and 163. Those are probably priced about right, I think.
The rest of the perk planes don't have anything more to offer than the La7 or Spit 16, so they may as well be unperked.
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I would tend to agree that a period where all piston engined planes were free of perk price would allow HTC to re assess a perk system which now largely pre dates AH's ac set and the present styles of game play.
This would probably be ove a complet tour..maybe two.
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I agree with Horoach and Urchin on those last to points. To much stupid ribbing and childish behaviour over a game. Some of these people seem stuck in the child mental state having studied a bit of pshycology i get that impression. Also the people who try to dictate how people fight is silly, if you pay for the game you can fight any way you want i don't care. As Leslie stated earlier who said he/she runs because their a coward i see NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, they don't have to fight me. Sometimes i disengage to get an advantageous position against a spit that wants me to play his game of turning on the deck I SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT, then they complain and say i was running. When i swoop down and use my advantage of speed and altitude and pick them i hear them crying on 200 about it. It's not fair to me to give up my advantage and fight someone on their terms, nor is it fair for them to do the same, i wouldn't expect them to fight my way in fact that would be unwise. This is the truth, do what you do, and let them cry iv'e been picked, vulched anyway you name it, i just say oh well good job, theres no fair play in war, play it as such and you'll be fine.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
Several real pilots play this game. And one Flys F-15s.
That's fine i'm sure there are several if not a whole lot more real life pilot's in the game, i was talking about the people who are not, and get all wrapped up. I'm an actual pilot as is Mars i understand and i'm sure we've both been totally beaten by someone who's never touched a real control stick in their life, it really makes no difference.;)
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If it makes no difference then why bring it up?
If you don't want to fight or interact with people then fly offline... what you should be doing is petitioning HT to make the offline drones give out polite replies.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by Tilt
I would tend to agree that a period where all piston engined planes were free of perk price would allow HTC to re assess a perk system which now largely pre dates AH's ac set and the present styles of game play.
This would probably be ove a complet tour..maybe two.
I like that idea. A re-assessment period. Bravo.:aok
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Check out the threads active....some asking for tighter perks, some for no perks at all.
Likely no changes coming, IMHO
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I still think the best kills for me, and this goes back to AW on genie, the ones that make me feel nice and fuzzy, are the ones where the target doesnt know Im there...I think it takes skill, with radar and all the check 6'in that goes on here, to be able to sneak up on a perked hog or a 51 and get under 200 on his low 6 and tap the button.
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I still think the best kills for me, and this goes back to AW on genie, the ones that make me feel nice and fuzzy, are the ones where the target doesnt know Im there...I think it takes skill
Yeah I hate those skilless fights where the other guy knows I'm there and we have to fight.:rolleyes: :lol
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Originally posted by lazs2
If it makes no difference then why bring it up?
If you don't want to fight or interact with people then fly offline... what you should be doing is petitioning HT to make the offline drones give out polite replies.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
I wonder why every comment you make is of the neener, neener child variety can you think no deeper? oh well:aok
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well... you could also petition to have the offline drones have their own BB where they would give out polite answers and agreement no matter what drivel was posted.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by mars01
Yeah I hate those skilless fights where the other guy knows I'm there and we have to fight.:rolleyes: :lol
Uhhh ... an awful lot of kills in WW2 happened when one guy didn't see the other sneaking in on him.
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... you could also petition to have the offline drones have their own BB where they would give out polite answers and agreement no matter what drivel was posted.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
OMG Lazs thats sig material.
:rofl :rofl
Bronk
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Uhhh ... an awful lot of kills in WW2 happened when one guy didn't see the other sneaking in on him.
So? still doesn't change things. LOL
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
I wonder why every comment you make is of the neener, neener child variety can you think no deeper? oh well:aok
You will find that Lazs has the uncanny ability to play to the level of his audience. :lol
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Originally posted by mars01
Yeah I hate those skilless fights where the other guy knows I'm there and we have to fight.:rolleyes: :lol
well there is not much "skill" in any of this-...like airwarrior, the fun and responsiblity of doing ones job as a video pilot can best be realized in scenarios
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... you could also petition to have the offline drones have their own BB where they would give out polite answers and agreement no matter what drivel was posted.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
:rofl
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Originally posted by mars01
So? still doesn't change things. LOL
Yeah - it does - you're implying that sneaking up on someone requires no skill.
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I didn't imply it, I am saying it. What is the difference between sneaking up on someone and flying offline against the drones. OK so it takes the bare minimum of skills needed to play this game. Congrats. LOL
I never understand why people play a Air Combat game but avoid fighting other people.
IMO - If he said something like - "Once in a while it's fun when..." or "Sometimes when I..." but to say
I still think the best kills for me , and this goes back to AW on genie, the ones that make me feel nice and fuzzy, are the ones where the target doesnt know Im there...
I mean so basically he is saying he has the most fun not fighting LOL.:lol
well there is not much "skill" in any of this-...like airwarrior, the fun and responsiblity of doing ones job as a video pilot can best be realized in scenarios
How much do you get paid to do "ones Job"? Are you saving the world from terrorism doing "ones job"? Is the world a safer place because you are doing "ones job"? LOLH :rofl
What? Scenarios where you sneak up and kill people LOLH. I will never understand people like you nark, but hey it's your 15 bucks - carry on.:aok
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I like to fly 190s-they dont furball all that well vs all the spit 16s and las...so I like bouncing the nice stall planes and rolling out-no biggie
I dont get the terriorism quote and unfourtunately that is slowly becomming my job now , drug work is being phased out for wmd infiltration
some scenarios dont have radar and very crappy visibility (bulge in particular)-sled and I snuck up on a 109 the other day in the italy scenario-in a early p47-believe it, it was kinda fun too.
could you put some lol's in your post-you have 1 or 2 lines missing them
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Originally posted by Urchin
And we used to have a CIA F-16 pilot..
:rofl
Wow. You gotta be kidding.
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Originally posted by mars01
I didn't imply it, I am saying it. What is the difference between sneaking up on someone and flying offline against the drones. OK so it takes the bare minimum of skills needed to play this game. Congrats. LOL
I never understand why people play a Air Combat game but avoid fighting other people.
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There's a vast difference between avoiding combat and taking advantage of another player's inattentiveness. I'm really surprised you can't see that. You're pretty much applying a WW1 mindset to WW2 air combat ... that was proven not to work well about 60 or so years back.
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There's a vast difference between avoiding combat and taking advantage of another player's inattentiveness. I'm really surprised you can't see that. You're pretty much applying a WW1 mindset to WW2 air combat ... that was proven not to work well about 60 or so years back.
DOK WTF are you talking about. We are playing a game, you are not a real fighter pilot. LOLH
Avoiding fights in a game or sneaking up on planes is like saying your going to play Monopoly but you aren't going to roll the dice. Whats the point?
WWI, WWII LOLH :lol
I play a game where the thrill is in the fight, you guys obviously play a game where it's get a kill with as little fight as necessary. Personally I never liked cherry picking much anyway.
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I find that in a massive furball, you can't help but kill people when they don't notice you. I wouldn't call it cherry picking, but you're in there twisting and turning, dodging and killing, and you will frequently see some guy turn right in front of you onto one of your countrymen. That's an opportunity kill, and I'll never pass one up, but it is obviously unfair in the sense that the other guy never sees it coming. If he did, after all, he wouldn't have turned right in front of me.
In those cases, I do think situational awareness and the ability to adapt quickly inform one's ability to "cherry pick."
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Something tells me they are not talking about fighting in a massive furball. I can't remember the last time they ran the Furball Scenario LOLH:rofl
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My rough working definition of a cherrypick is someone swooping into a 1v1 or 2v1 on Xv1 (on the side of the X).
A swirling melee of planes will have planes getting blindsided almost by definition... I doubt anyones SA is good enough to keep track of all the enemies and shoot at someone, you naturally stop paying attention to your bellybutton when you are trying to fill someone elses with lead.
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Originally posted by mars01
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I play a game where the thrill is in the fight, you guys obviously play a game where it's get a kill with as little fight as necessary. Personally I never liked cherry picking much anyway.
Bet you're against deer hunting too, cuz them quadrapeds can't shoot back. :D
I really enjoy bouncing a flight of enemas and killing someone right in front of their wingman and zooming away afterwards. Sorry. Maybe its a part of the game you don't enjoy, but so what. I guess engaging at 1-on-3 odds is "avoiding combat" if I do so with an altitude advantage. Awww, shucks and gee-willikers.
And ... this whole "avoiding a fight" rant ... seriously ... why *should* I play your game. I am so bored with having to avoid being HO'd and rammed on every merge. And that's what furballs are like now. You can keep it.
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DOK you are putting words into my mouth. If I'd rather fight a person for a six shot why would you think I HO. LOLH
Three on one odds are in your favor if you have the alt. Bouncing, what is that LOLH.
But anyway you digress, as I said in my first post, if you like fighting people that have no clue that you are there, then go for it, it's your 15 bucks and their poor SA. But don't argue that you need some uber skills to do it LOLH.
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Originally posted by mars01
DOK you are putting words into my mouth. If I'd rather fight a person for a six shot why would you think I HO. LOLH
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My bad ... I actually had a line in there saying that I knew you didn't play that way but deleted it by accident. I'm also editing my blog and some PHP code at the same time here so sometimes my editorial SA misses a beat.
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Blah this whole thread is silly, first off MOST kills in this game come from gangbanging OR being gangbanged.
Score is effected by discos' and therefore can be "connectivity" related no matter how you fly.
As for the rediculous chest pounding being done in this thread it is just a riot, how can you tell wheather the other guy is PW, out of ammo, or has wife ack in the background???? Maybe he is running for one of those reasons and not just to avoid a fight.
One guy flies in AH for the arcade value and another flies for the WWII "experience" while still others are looking for some "other" value.
Who am I to determine who is right and who is wrong??
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The end point is, every one of us plays this game for the "thrill" or "rush" of doing the individual thing we like to do. My rush is blowing some other sap into a million smoking bits & I don't care how I did it. I like to win & I hate to lose, Playing this game has forced me to deal with losing out of nessecity but I don't enjoy it.
If we were to vote on our favorite style of play; I would have to say mine is low & turning with the sides being close to equal so everyone is busy & I have a fair chance to blow someone out of the sky. Killing another thinking person; even if it's a virtual fight, gives me a thrill that besting an A.I. doesn't.
So I am a G.V, J.A.B.O. & furball enjoyer who thinks everyone should do what gets their individual rocks off....yes, I'm a freak.
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all that is well and good but no matter how you look at it.....
We have lots of planes to choose from. They turn at different rates and climb and accelerate at different rates. You are not expected to try to make your plane compete where it is not good... not much anyway but..
How do you expalin choosing the fastest planes and then only "sneaking up" on slower better turning planes. it would seem that if you have the patience to wait for just the right moment and to climb to where you are "safe" and to allways keep up your speed then....
you are fooling yourself saying that there is nothing gamey about choosing the fastest planes and then only attacking low slow planes that are assleep or in engaged...or... taking a few risk free B & Z runs at em..
If you really were say, a fan of a certain aircraft that also happened to be uber by some coincidence.... you would spend the time looking for other cherry picking guys in fast late war planes like yourself and turn with em.
Use the like performance to fight each other like the earlier guys are doing on the deck... when you join the furball and B & Z it.... you don't have much of a case... you are gaming the game in my opinion... might as well be in a horde.
you say that is not what you are doing but you seem only willing to climb and be bored with waiting only if it will result in the risk free kill of a slower plane.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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High speed attacks on opponents who didn't see them coming *was* how air combat was fought in WW2. To call it "gamey" to replicate the tactics and techniques that were actually used in WW2 in a WW2 air combat sim is idiotic.
To likewise equate a proper bounce of an unengaged enemy plane with cherry picking said plane by using an unknowing team-mate as bait is just as inane.
If you want to say that sneaking up on someone doesn't require the same plane-handling skills as a 90mph furball, sure, who'd argue. But to imply that that is somehow cheating ("gaming the game") is insulting.
It's really a shame that so many of the people with knowledge of this game are more interested in their personal agendas than in the game as a whole.
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Lasz2 and Mars01 have you been Boom and Zoomed at some point. Anyway i don't see anything wrong with any of it. Ho's BnZ,E fighting Turn fighting, Sneaking up and killing me, running, do whatever you have to do, the only person's fault it is is mine for not paying attention or whatever, so stop saying people should fight you and give you their prettythang on a silver platter just the way you like, they don't have to do anything but pay taxes and die. Iv'e been picked many times and never complained about it, Ho'd all the time, i don't know why they complain about that, hey the other guy got a shot he got me, so what, good job man, maybe if i had fired it be the other way around. They sound like one of those pilots's that gets picked and starts complaining hey bring your B-52 down here and turn fight me on my terms and give it to me just how i like it, yea right! The Bnz'ers complain about the Turn n Burner's and the TnB'ers complain about the Bnz'ers and we all need to take a chill pill, i'll take one with you, and just say it's a game, whatever you want to do is whatever you want to do, it's all good.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
High speed attacks on opponents who didn't see them coming *was* how air combat was fought in WW2. To call it "gamey" to replicate the tactics and techniques that were actually used in WW2 in a WW2 air combat sim is idiotic.
To likewise equate a proper bounce of an unengaged enemy plane with cherry picking said plane by using an unknowing team-mate as bait is just as inane.
If you want to say that sneaking up on someone doesn't require the same plane-handling skills as a 90mph furball, sure, who'd argue. But to imply that that is somehow cheating ("gaming the game") is insulting.
It's really a shame that so many of the people with knowledge of this game are more interested in their personal agendas than in the game as a whole.
Bravo:aok :D
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doc... sorry you are insulted but.... It is the truth... you admit that there is little skill and that you are simply picking a plane and method that takes the least skill to get a kill in.... you are using a game element against people who wish to fight each other on much more even terms.... you are gaming the game.
your fall back arguement to history and "realism" is pretty weak too as.... mars and others have pointed out.... this is not war but a game... it is not even a simulation of war. We are using WWII planes but no where in WWII did spits fight spits or pee 51's fight lalas or spits or p47's
If you use your thphie or peee 51 to B & Z some spit 5 or p40 or f4f you are not acting "realisticaly" or "historicaly" except in the broadest sense.... you are simply gaming the game.
Other games have tried to put out more realistic plane sets and failed because far more people want to game the game than act "historicaly" or "realisticaly"
If you don't want people calling you on it then you have an option.... don't do it. but don't come up with lame excuses for why you do....it is just.... pathetic.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
doc... sorry you are insulted but.... It is the truth... you admit that there is little skill and that you are simply picking a plane and method that takes the least skill to get a kill in ...
Y'know, if there's one thing I hate almost as much as hypocrites is people who say I said things I didn't.
What I said was: "If you want to say that sneaking up on someone doesn't require the same plane-handling skills as a 90mph furball, sure, who'd argue."
I never said "little skill" or "least skill" ... just that it doesn't require the same level of low speed plane handling technique that your furball does. I never "admitted" anything either; I stated a fact that is obvious to anyone. Changing the words I wrote to support your case makes you look like ... well ... a liar.
The "insult" was to the intelligence of people who read this BBS. On many levels. Not the least of which is the selfish logic of your position. And it's easy to demonstrate: How much "skill" does it take to out-turn and then shoot down a Fw190 in a Spit? Basically none. So do you chastise people for doing so? Of course not.
In other words - you want everyone to play your way as long as you benefit and anyone who ain't is doing it wrong, etc. Each technique requires its own kind of skill - even if that skill is something called patience.
Note that things like HO'n'Go, ramming, porking, cherry-picking, etc. aren't what I would call "technique" - those *are* "gaming the game" because they are totally and completely a response *to* the game itself.
The MA needs a lot of things fixed. A lot. But the merits of BnZ vs. TnB ain't even close to what those problems are; as much as some people would like to make it appear so.
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Led you are such a noob lol,
Ho'd all the time, i don't know why they complain about that, hey the other guy got a shot he got me, so what, good job man, maybe if i had fired it be the other way around.
It's the fight newby! Two guys working to get control of a fight and gain the upper hand, the fight! Thats what Laz, myself and many others are here for. Not to just run up and shoot some guy in the face. Do nothing but that for the next three months. If you don't have a face shot fly by. Then tell me how much fun your having. Cherry picking people that are already engaged with 2 or 3 of your guys and shooting people that are AFK is not fighting.
Tis has nothing to do with any of us getting killed or dying. This is just a discussion on the merrits of flying styles. LOLH
The rest of you are all missing the point. Yeah BnZ is fun, who doesn't like to once and while saddle up start shooting fish in a barrel. F4u4 is the best plane for it, it has so many things going for it in that mode.
But as laz said, It's looking for that guy that actually wants to fight up there that I find more fun than easy picks. You can always tell the cherry only guys, because as soon as they see you starting to engage them, they dive into the cherry tree.
IMO you want to boil this whole thing down, Fight. People who fight and lay it on the line like everyone else are the ones that make this game fun for everyone, including themselves.
There is no shame in dying or getting shot down, only shame in not fighting.
At the end of the day were all here to fight in these planes. We don't care how you fly, just put up a fight and lay it on the line. When you're playing it safe your not laying anything on the line and most boring to fight.
Also LedPig, to say we are looking for people to hand out their six is rediculous at best and proves you don't get the whole picture.
It's really a shame that so many of the people with knowledge of this game are more interested in their personal agendas than in the game as a whole.
And what is our agenda? Please do tell. If you think I have one then I guess I should. LOL. So please let me know what our agenda is.
How much "skill" does it take to out-turn and then shoot down a Fw190 in a Spit?
Laz can't answer this because all he flies is an FM2 and to be honest with you most spit guys aren't looking for 190s to fight. On the otherhand a BnZ guy is looking for any unsuspecting foe. Do you know how boring most spit vs 190 fights are for most spit drivers. Most spit drivers are looking for other spits and a challenging fight. I know there are the maroons that BnZ in spits, and other than the 14 drivers they are retards.
Originally Posted By:Doc
High speed attacks on opponents who didn't see them coming *was* how air combat was fought in WW2. To call it "gamey" to replicate the tactics and techniques that were actually used in WW2 in a WW2 air combat sim is idiotic.
Originally Posted By:Laz
We are using WWII planes but no where in WWII did spits fight spits or pee 51's fight lalas or spits or p47's
If you use your thphie or peee 51 to B & Z some spit 5 or p40 or f4f you are not acting "realisticaly" or "historicaly" except in the broadest sense.... you are simply gaming the game.
Originally Posted By:Doc
In other words - you want everyone to play your way as long as you benefit and anyone who ain't is doing it wrong, etc. Each technique requires its own kind of skill - even if that skill is something called patience.
Note that things like HO'n'Go, ramming, porking, cherry-picking, etc. aren't what I would call "technique" - those *are* "gaming the game" because they are totally and completely a response *to* the game itself.
So why would you twist Laz's words around when if you read his posts it is obvious he is talking about all the things you put in your NOTE portion, so in essence you are agreeing with him.
Originally Posted By:Doc
Y'know, if there's one thing I hate almost as much as hypocrites is people who say I said things I didn't.
So now go hate yourself for twisting Laz's reply into what you wanted it to be.
Originally Posted By:Doc
In other words - you want everyone to play your way as long as you benefit and anyone who ain't is doing it wrong, etc. Each technique requires its own kind of skill - even if that skill is something called patience.
BTW - I'm not picking on you Doc.
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Scoring will only affect gameplay for those that are concerned with their score. I have played the rank game before and had a great time for the month and I have played a month rarely landing and had a blast also.
The whole pay my money and you can dictate how I play thing works both ways. The MA isn't like it used to be, but what about the people that actually like staying out of a 1k fray? Some people will never like how other people play, but who gives a crap...I sure don't. Alot of the players in the "furball" suck anyway and it becomes who can pull on the stick the hardest or how many can we get on their six...not alot of skill needed for that.
HTC saw fit to put in a capture and score system so obviously the people who like it either outnumber or are more important than the many players who don't like the system. The game offers a score so why not try to get a good one if you like. If you like flying above the fray and that makes you happy then don't listen to anyone else telling you that you should listen to their wisdom and come down and play.....it's still your free time and money.
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No, Mars, Laz berates the general use of BnZ planes vs. TnB planes in the lines you cite. That's not anywhere close to the same as calling out cherry-picking in particular and you know it. Maybe Laz's intent was different, or maybe that's how you read it, but that's not what he said.
Further, to say that just because P51's didn't fight Spitfires means that using the plane (P51) in the manner it was intended against a better-turning opponent is ahistorical is such an obviously shallow argument that I'm really surprised you're using it.
Next, you say that Most spit drivers are looking for other spits and a challenging fight.
Say what?
My agenda is to see overall gameplay improve ... not just one aspect of it. The BnZ v. TnB balance is one of the least out of balance things in that regard. If you fly a 190/51/47 you need to have more discipline because you can get out-turned. If you fly a Spit/Zeke/FM2 you can get down and dirty but you have to be aware that a zoomer may catch you unawares. That's the way it's supposed to be. There's equal room for both styles without being untrue to history or letting one side of the fence have "all the marbles."
What's wrecking the quality of fights, at least based on what I see, is overuse of HO's and ramming, reliance on The Horde or vultching to pad one's score (see original topic of this thread), and the Griefer Nation.
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The only thing that kinda irritates me about the Bore n Zoom guys (the ones that aren't noob jousters, that is) is they keep trying to come back.
I know you know the type.
I'll be putzing around in one of my crap planes, and some D-9 or P-51 will come in from 5k higher than me, *****footing around.. he makes a halfass pass, I bank and he zooms... repeat a couple times.
At this point I just want him to GO AWAY. It should be obvious I know you are there and you can't "sneak up on me". Go find some OTHER unsuspecting target, and leave me the hell alone.
Dodging lame halfass BnZ passes for 10-15 minutes is marginally less fun than spitting on an ant just to watch it wiggle around trying to get out.
Those guys irritate me. It is like their plan is to either run me out of gas, or wait till I fall asleep, then pounce.
It sucks.
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Originally posted by mars01
There is no shame in dying or getting shot down, only shame in not fighting.
Says you. But you're wrong. There's no shame in keeping your plane alive, only shame in diving in without a plan and expire like a dweeb. I'm not willing to give AH up to the arcade boys.
btw what does LOLH mean? You seem to use it a lot.
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Originally posted by Urchin
The only thing that kinda irritates me about the Bore n Zoom guys (the ones that aren't noob jousters, that is) is they keep trying to come back.
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It sucks.
Yeah, they're annoying to those of us higher up too. Because up there if they miss a couple passes you can equalize altitudes ... and then they either run or go into HO-motion.
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Quick question for Dok.
Let's say you are in a P51D, @18k up. You see a spit16 @16k and closing on your 12.
What do you do, and how would this fight typically play out for you.
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I am really having fun in this game. If I get mad in an endless 80 fighter furball, I just go elsewhere & b&z for a while. I can buff or gv to my heart's content, Exactly what is there to complain about here?
-MI- {Shillelagh}
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pardon me, i will warn you i have had a few drinks tonight:)
one thing i'll never quite get about this game is this......AH is a game about fighting other players. you win some, you lose some, you can't win em' all. why are there so many care bears in a game that is focused on player vs. player contact? good god, you lost a plane, oh no chicken little! it's not like some lv 50 wizard killed you and took your precious sword that you spent 6 months getting.
really, i resepect someone 20x more for actually fighting than spending the day bore'n' zooming you for 5 minutes. where's the guts, has the MA been reduced to a bunch of chicken' lilly azzed' care bears worrying about a plane they did not buy, what score they have, who's FH's need to be killed?
bah, i say there is something wrong with worrying about keeping your plane alive, you should worry more about fighting....isn't that the game? i don't get mad when i get picked, or b'n'z'ed all day, but i sure don't think that pilot has 133t skillz. i actually think to myself "wow he suxs."
what ever though, if people want to spend $15 to float around and pick of people without jeopardizing their precious plane to no end, because it is so important (obviously) then have at it. i would never question the reason, i just assume that's all they know. (true or not). maybe the can get a 60/1 k/d ratio, boy must they be good. maybe fly for hours and hours and log 1000's of kills. oh yea, it's in the sake of realism though right?
p.s. to date the best ever care bear whine came to me the other day, when someone was crying about the fact that i got a kill after they tried to ditch. lol, and they called me the lamer:huh
play to have fun, when you find yourself worrying that your plane might get shot down maybe you should switch to a more care bear friendly game. anyone have another beer for me:)
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Originally posted by Booz
Says you. But you're wrong. There's no shame in keeping your plane alive, only shame in diving in without a plan and expire like a dweeb. I'm not willing to give AH up to the arcade boys.
btw what does LOLH mean? You seem to use it a lot.
TOO Late it's already arcade:cry
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Originally posted by WMLute
Quick question for Dok.
Let's say you are in a P51D, @18k up. You see a spit16 @16k and closing on your 12.
What do you do, and how would this fight typically play out for you.
Usually if I encounter that in the current MA the Spit will start to turn and dive away once he gets in con range and sees its not a P47 or Fw.
If he don't, the next move depends on what he does. If he starts to climb to me I'll dive at him to scoot underneath and Immelman at the merge. This basically erases any altitude he gained climbing to me when he reverses after the merge - it also makes him go nose-down at the merge if he wants the HO shot. If he flies level, I expect the Immelman from him from below and zoom climb at the merge point; then pop flaps at the top and come down on him.
The way it usually plays out these days is 20% of the time I get HO'd or rammed (no matter how I try to avoid it), about 20% of the time I'll screw up or be outflown and scram, about 20% of the time the Spit will run once he sees I've secured a critical advantage, about 20% of the time I'll get a kill out of it, and the rest is some combination of the Spit's buddies trying to intervene or rubber bullets or I just lose patience with dodging Hispano HO's and look for something else to shoot at.
Could I fly more aggressively in this situation? Sure. Probably the biggest reason I don't is I'm not very confident of my gunnery. Both because of lack of consistent practice and the flakiness of my connect since the SBC-ATT merger. I just never know from one engagement to the next if I'm loaded with blank ammo or not.
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Originally posted by pluck
pardon me, i will warn you i have had a few drinks tonight:)
one thing i'll never quite get about this game is this.........
This kind of closed-mindedness is what is making this game less and less fun for me.
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Boy people sure do complain how people don't play the game how they want them to. I've gone to playing axis and allies alot because in there i can avoid a horde and go 1 to 1 with a guy or in a team setting where people work together to kill the enemy and not have to worry about 500 people picking me, when i'm doin it. The other day i got into a 5 minute long dogfight with a p-51, it was most fun, each of us spiraling around for position, i scored some definite hits, then we hit the deck in a stall fight going around and around on the edge, stall horn blaring then i start gaining advantage again, the p-51 starts running, i'm right behind in wep chasing in a p-38 not really gaining, finally i say forget it, a buddy of mine calls zero 2 o clock we start working him, as soon as we focus on the zero the p-51 comes back sneaking up so i turn on him again gaining definite hits to his wing structure, being that i'm in a 38, i tell my buddy to handle the zero since he's wearing something a little more maneaverable, the zero shoots my buddy down then the horde sets in on me, low and slow in a 38 after having turn fought a 51 i'm dead meat and the 51 gets away. I live for engagements like this the aerial balet of air combat, it got my blood boiling, but one of the things i don't like about the main arena is the point whoring and people who do anything to get it. My scores suck, 1) cause i suck 2) cause i don't care, 3) and three cause i played this game for the first couple months not even trying to land after i scored kills, i didn't even know that's how it worked, i'd have much fun staying till i died, i didn't even try to land. When the p-51 ran i didn't really care, it's his business, but some people here have some major problems when people don't play the game how they want. It basically amounts to people being in grade school and going, Billy didn't play hopscotch how i wanted so now i'm going to whine, i was never like that, i would wait till Billy was ready to play then i'd kick his prettythang. Some people here have to learn the magical life lesson that it's not all about me and that people have free will to do whatever they want, AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. When the p-51 ran from me, he was beat, i was all over him the whole time and he had the disadvantage, i consider it smart to run sometime, to formulate a new plan of attack or to even up a disadvantage in plane performance. I have to do it all the time since i fly the American iron and the whole dam# arena now is made of spit and la's, often times i'll bleed my energy trying to get a shot and who's behind me but Mr spit 16, so i run to get away knowing i'm a dead man if i don't do something, cause i'm dead in Mr Spit's territory in a P-38 at 150 mph so i disengage. Meanwhile on ch 200 i hear these guys talk about run coward run, and i'm going you want me to stay here and give you my behind on a silver platter? How selfish are you. If i'm lucky enough to disengage and gain some alt and speed i'll loop back down and try to get a finishing shot, then i'll here these same guys whining about he picked me. Yea he picked you, what do you expect watch your prettythang next time. Anyway i think it amounts to a bunch of children whining that you don't play how they want, and when they get killed they cry about that too. That attitiude has got to stop. Whatever happened to sportmanship? A simple hey man good job, or you got me, it happens to me all the time and try i not to complain about it.
P.S. I don't think the La or Spit should be perked anymore, who am i to tell somebody what they can fly:)
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Originally posted by Booz
Says you. But you're wrong. There's no shame in keeping your plane alive, only shame in diving in without a plan and expire like a dweeb. I'm not willing to give AH up to the arcade boys.
You're both wrong. There's no shame in anything; it's just a game. You're not giving up anything to the "arcade boys," and Mars isn't actually striking a blow for intrepid dogfighters. Now would you gentlemen please put down the purses?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
You're both wrong. There's no shame in anything; it's just a game. You're not giving up anything to the "arcade boys," and Mars isn't actually striking a blow for intrepid dogfighters. Now would you gentlemen please put down the purses?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Exactly. I just kill red guys however I feel like at that moment. Sometimes its TnB, sometimes its E fighting, sometimes its cherrypicking, sometimes its a HO, sometimes I dive into 10 badguys and dont kill anything. The only thing that has any real relevance is whether I (you) have fun or not.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
This kind of closed-mindedness is what is making this game less and less fun for me.
didn't think it was closed minded, i didn't know having an opinion made the game less fun for you. like i said it's your money, spend it the way you want, i'm not going to tell you your playing the right way or not. but they way is see it, people need to show me they can actually fly the plane before i start giving them the . b'n'z and picking is not a able act imho.
i was just trying to point out that some, and wasn't speaking at you, care far to much about dying than fighting. i'm not talking about the guy who does not want to turn fight a spit in a 109, but the guy who refuses to learn how to fight in one.
the other night i was defending a base from wave after wave of p51's and typhs. after gaining some alt in my 190, i was able to start running these guys down. all they did was drop there eggs, and fly straight. i get behind them shoot them......they make to attempt to do anything. rinse repeat. and lets not even bring up all the vulch monkeys the fly straight to a base and start vulching, while 20 enemy planes still up defending base, then runs home. how about the guy that has 10k advantage on you and b'n'zs for 10 minutes. maybe its fun to them, but i don't see how, you could do the same thing offline. vast
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gonzo... didn't realize you were so sensitive... I would agree with you that the HO boys and hordes are ruining the game... even then... if 5 guys are on you... might as well take the HO... take every shot you get till you die sorta thing... I think you mean the other way round tho... 5 guys come at one but they all just put down thier visors and ram..
So fine... we agree on that... what we don't agree on is that this is not a historical game. I didn't sign on to relive history per se... I love WWII prop planes... I like gunnery and balistics... I allways wanted to see what it would be like to fly the things and shoot the guns and I like flying (virtualy) against real humans.. I want to fight equal agtainst equal too... spit against spit or ally against ally.
Now... The problem is... WWII was the hight of piston engine development and armement. it went from 500hp and 2 .30 caliber machine guns to allmost 3000 hp and 8 .50's or 4 20 mm cannon. We can choose any plane from the era.
simply clicking on a later war monster gives you a huge advantage.... you are all but untouchable when fighting early war slow planes if.... you are immune to boredom and have even a modicum of skill.... You can bore and zoom to your hearts delight.
this is gaming the game no matter how you say it. The only real way that we could have equal fights with such choices of planes is voluntary.
If you have a fast late war plane.... stay high and fight only other late war planes... if you go low... stay and fight low. Slow planes at alt are fair game. early planes stay low. Fight only late war planes in your late war plane and see how it goes.
I don't think anyone would call gaming the game on bore and zoom tactics when two late war fast planes are involved but....
That is not what is happening... the late war planes look for the slower planes to bore and zoom or catch when occupied..
zooming down in a late war monster... taking your sissy little kick at the engaged early war plane and then zooming back up to your high alt foxhole...
is just as gamey as the HO warrior or horde.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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pluck... that is well put. I upped a tempest in the late war only infinity map because I got tired of the only thing that passed for "air combat" being pee51's and doris's taking sissy little kicks at me and then running.
I chased a pee51 and duh.... dora... for allmost a sector.. everytime it looked like they might have to engage with equal e... they ran further..
This is no doubt fighting like a "smart" WWII pilot might have but.... to say that they allways flew like that would be insulting to their memory in my opinion. It really seems strange in a game. If those guys weren't in the game it would not bother me in the least... I have no use for em.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
The other day i got into a 5 minute long dogfight with a p-51, it was most fun, each of us spiraling around for position, i scored some definite hits, then we hit the deck in a stall fight going around and around on the edge, stall horn blaring then i start gaining advantage again, the p-51 starts running, i'm right behind in wep chasing in a p-38 not really gaining, finally i say forget it, a buddy of mine calls zero 2 o clock we start working him, as soon as we focus on the zero the p-51 comes back sneaking up so i turn on him again gaining definite hits to his wing structure, being that i'm in a 38, i tell my buddy to handle the zero since he's wearing something a little more maneaverable, the zero shoots my buddy down then the horde sets in on me, low and slow in a 38 after having turn fought a 51 i'm dead meat and the 51 gets away.
Let's see... you had an inconclusive 1v1 with a P-51 (or was your "buddy" already helping you with the 51?)
Then you and your buddy tried to gang a zeke 2v1 and the -51 comes back making it 2v2. The horror.
Your buddy loses and it's now 2v1 against you.
I'm sorry.... I just have to laugh at your sorrowful predicament.
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Originally posted by lazs2
simply clicking on a later war monster gives you a huge advantage.... you are all but untouchable when fighting early war slow planes if.... you are immune to boredom and have even a modicum of skill.... You can bore and zoom to your hearts delight.
this is gaming the game no matter how you say it. The only real way that we could have equal fights with such choices of planes is voluntary.
If you have a fast late war plane.... stay high and fight only other late war planes... if you go low... stay and fight low. Slow planes at alt are fair game. early planes stay low. Fight only late war planes in your late war plane and see how it goes.
I don't think anyone would call gaming the game on bore and zoom tactics when two late war fast planes are involved but....
That is not what is happening... the late war planes look for the slower planes to bore and zoom or catch when occupied..
Pure, unadulterated bullpucky. Lazs, if you honestly believe this is true...you deserve everyone's sympathy. That tactic has nothing to do with the plane people chose to fly.
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which part nb? just the underlined part? Are you saying that the newbies don't choose the fast late war cannon planes in order to do what I said?
Are you saying that people don't do that?
fraid I gotta call bs on you too. sorry to hurt your feelings but... we are on to you.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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nb... I think that you are looking at it on a personal level since you fly late war planes a lot...
your score shows that you don't fly much but that you do indeed go after late war planes... you seem to be into killing bombers tho and you do kill a lot of early war planes.
I would venture to say that your score is not typical of the average player in a late war ride.
you can look at my score.... I have a whole lot of kills against late war planes....
now, everyone knows that I rarely fly over 2k above ground level and am allways slow so... if the late war planes are not getting reversed and killed... how am I doing it? if they are not bore and zooming... how is it that they are in my area to get killed? They get careless. They let me reverse em or get greedy and then lose track of me..is all. They see a low FM2 and can't resist... or they see me engaged and think they can loiter a bit....
It is easy enough to see who is right... my score shows that I am seeing what I am seeing...yours is not so clear... lets look at the scores of those who fly late war planes and see just who they are killing..
Are they killing each other or gaming the game?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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so should we waste time rtb to land kills or, as soon as I run out of ammo just eject , hit tower and immediatley up another spit? I think returning to base in a fast, ammo less plane is boring and not what my 15$ should be spent on-Ive no ammo, there fore I cannot fight, so in order to fight I must abort this sortie asap and reup.
landing kills is indicative of caring about ones score and, heaven's sake trying to keep one's computer butt alive for the duration of, say a single sortie.
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Originally posted by lazs2
which part nb? just the underlined part? Are you saying that the newbies don't choose the fast late war cannon planes in order to do what I said?
Are you saying that people don't do that?
fraid I gotta call bs on you too. sorry to hurt your feelings but... we are on to you.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
We? You gotta mouse in your pocket?? :lol
You make a blanket generalization about late war planes and then try to rag me about being specific??? Wadda HOOT! :D
:lol Just noticed you looked at my score! For the last 6 months or so, I've flown Yaks (and the Tempest to climb up and wack milkrunning buffs). I would bet you dollars to donuts that very few of the plane types you like to fly. Do I cherry, vulch and ho? When the situation calls for it...rarely and VERY rarely. Frankly, I ho so little these days, I die everytime I try!! :D
Lazs, I do believe that you are stating "what you see". The problem is you don't see the entire picture. I do, occassionally, fly low and do the furryballs thing. You say that you don't do the opposite, so, how can you make such a generalization when you, obviously, don't have the info to do so?
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What's wrong with Boom n Zooming?
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Originally posted by pluck
didn't think it was closed minded, i didn't know having an opinion made the game less fun for you. [...]
the other night i was defending a base from wave after wave of p51's and typhs. after gaining some alt in my 190, i was able to start running these guys down. all they did was drop there eggs, and fly straight. i get behind them shoot them......they make to attempt to do anything. rinse repeat. and lets not even bring up all the vulch monkeys the fly straight to a base and start vulching, while 20 enemy planes still up defending base, then runs home. how about the guy that has 10k advantage on you and b'n'zs for 10 minutes. [...]
The closedmindedness I refer to was lumping the things you just described in with people who "fly smart" ... and we all know what that is. It's these blanket statements of "if you don't turn fight whatever you're in then you have no skill and don't rate merit" that are absurd.
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Nothing better to do?
Just play the game maybe?
No?
mmkay.
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Originally posted by lazs2
gonzo... didn't realize you were so sensitive... yadda yadda yadda ...
Hey, if I dislike the people I'm playing a game with on a personal level (as opposed to good ole Hate(tm)) it ain't as much fun. Pretty simple concept.
If you have a fast late war plane.... stay high and fight only other late war planes... if you go low... stay and fight low. Slow planes at alt are fair game. early planes stay low. Fight only late war planes in your late war plane and see how it goes.
Your "logic" highlights what naughty people the Germans were in WW2. For shame - attacking the technically inferior air forces of Poland and Russia.
But anyway ... if you *choose* to fly an FM2 then it was your decision to fly a slower, lesser armed plane. If someone in a P51D or even 190A5 wants to use his advantage of speed, altitude, roll rate, guns, etc. to his favor - that's what the game is. No one forced you to fly that early war plane. So then trying to mandate that in the MA only people who made the same kind of choice should be allowed to shoot you down is ... well ... silly. Go to AVA for that kind of match up.
When I take a 190A5 I know that I'm making a decision to fly a plane that's slower and worse turning than the top 5 (La7, Spit16, P51D, and whatever else). If I up a Zeke from a CV I know I'm making a decision to trade speed and armor plating for manouevering, and that I won't be able to catch most of the things attacking my carrier if they choose to run.
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But anyway ... if you *choose* to fly an FM2 then it was your decision to fly a slower, lesser armed plane. If someone in a P51D or even 190A5 wants to use his advantage of speed, altitude, roll rate, guns, etc. to his favor - that's what the game is.
Ahh but wern't you the one saying this is WWII? So like I said 10 posts ago, you are agreeing with Lazs.
You want it both ways Dok and you can't have it. Either you are a "This is all a WWII Sim" or "This is a game". We accept the choices to fly the planes we do, but taking the best BnZ plane and attacking guys low and slow is just gaming that game. "Not that there is anythign wrong with that." LOLH
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The closedmindedness I refer to was lumping the things you just described in with people who "fly smart" ... and we all know what that is.
It's these blanket statements of "if you don't turn fight whatever you're in then you have no skill and don't rate merit" that are absurd.
OMG Dok you are really letting your emotions take over for logic and comprehension. The agressive smart flying is a lot of fun to fight. The timid flyer masking their lack of skill with smart flying is the most boring person to fight in this game, other than Morph :D.
Do I find BnZ boring compared to on the deck were the action is, YES, most of the time. If you like to BnZ doing the safety dance then go ahead, enjoy yourself. But don't try to compare the two and get mad when you realize they are not equal or compareable.
It takes a different skill set to dance on the deck, then to dance from a perch. And I would bet it is easier to go from the deck to the perch and survive, then it would be to go from the perch to the deck. If for no other reason than the safety of your alt. And I am not talking just turn fighters on the deck.
In my opinion the highest level of Fighter Pilot in this game are the guys that can fly the BnZ planes on the deck and be successful. And I don't mean the slashers that dive in from 8k and are only on the deck for 2 seconds, or the guys that stay on the deck at 400 miles and hour and extend to +6k LOL.
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nb... of course I am seeing what I am seeing and you.... are seeing what you are seeing... I think that it is fair to say that I am seeing a lot more low action than you are and who is participating. that is why I say... look at the expanded scores of those who fly mostly one type or another. mine would tend to bear out what I say is happening.
gonszo... LOL... now you are saying that you aren't gaming the game but only flying realisticaly in the broad sense of... nazis vs poland? The 109e and fm2's of.... Poland? face it... there is no way anyone can buy that excuse that you are immersed in the history of WWII when you bounce a spit 5 in your pee 51.
nope... people choose the fast rides with the big guns in order to have as much of an advantage as they can. I don't keep up with who wins the fighter rank or in what but I bet it isn't in early war rides.
now... since there is no way that you could be flying for history in this game.... it only leaves the "I am not a wussy game the game guy but..." "my grandpa flew a typhie in the war" or "I have allways loved the 190 duh...dora above all people and planes" excuse...
sure... Ok.. good. If you love the plane so much and don't really just want an unfair advantage over a large group of players.... then stay high and fight only other "aficianados".
Cause that is the problem... if you like the game and aren't trying to hurt it then you would be doing that... to cherry pick early war planes is to make them allmost useless to most people... you are driving em out of the game. You have the choice of attack... they do not.
fields that are far apart and cherry pickers are ruining the game for early war guys just as surely as HO warriors and horde warriors are ruining it for you.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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You two can play all the semantic games you want, and sling all the back-handed insults at me you want, but what is clear is that your whole message is "play our way or you're wrong." Same as it ever was.
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"play our way or you're wrong." Same as it ever was.
Nice cop-out Dok. In otherwords - "I don't have any arguments left to continue so I am just going to sling mud." :rolleyes:
Where in any of this did we tell you to play our way? Where are the back handed insults? Man are you really getting that emotional from all this?
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Dok I don't think they have ever said " play my way or you're wrong ".
What they have said is more along the lines of play my way or you're a cherry pickin , hoin, vulch , alt monkey ,run tard.
Big difference.
They have also said if you enjoy it ,so be it.
I fly late war AC and die ... die a lot :D . Mostly because i get over aggressive with better pilots so what I learn and move on.
I have gotten more and nice fights because of it win or loose.
I am thinking most that get offended by it fit into the more lets say "cautious" style of flying. To them i say have fun if it floats your boat.
If what these cautious fliers want is praise though ... It'll be a long time comin.
Take Shawk for example he is great at what he does.
But there is no way in hell he'll match up some one of say Levi's skill .
1v1 or in the fur. Notice i didn't say Pickin at the fur I said in it.
I once told Nomak I didn't want to be the best I just wanted to be able to give them a fight if needed.
These "cautious" pilots want to pick the best an be called great for it. IMHO
Bronk
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Originally posted by mars01
Nice cop-out Dok. In otherwords - "I don't have any arguments left to continue so I am just going to sling mud." :rolleyes:
Where in any of this did we tell you to play our way? Where are the back handed insults? Man are you really getting that emotional from all this?
I take the time to have this discussions/arguments because I actually give a damn ... and have done so for almost twenty years now. I actually try to see all sides (and there's usually about 17 of 'em). You guys only appear to see only one. So why should I bother?
Whether you see it or not, it's all the same problem; and it affects furballers and BnZ'ers the same. The game system rewards certain achievments, and players have found the paths of least resistence to these. (... back on topic ... amazing, huh?) The guy who wades into a furball in a 110G and face-shoots everything in sight is the same as the cherry-picker, or the La-7 runway vultch-tard. They're all after the same thing, just using different optimizations to reach that end. And when you get more people doing these kinds of things than not, well, you see what happens every night in the MA.
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Hehe guy guys are arguing the same side .
Mars is just not as PC about it.
Bronk
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Whether you see it or not, it's all the same problem; and it affects furballers and BnZ'ers the same. The game system rewards certain achievments, and players have found the paths of least resistence to these. (... back on topic ... amazing, huh?) The guy who wades into a furball in a 110G and face-shoots everything in sight is the same as the cherry-picker, or the La-7 runway vultch-tard. They're all after the same thing, just using different optimizations to reach that end. And when you get more people doing these kinds of things than not, well, you see what happens every night in the MA.
I agree with this DOK -
On the rest, I think Bronk hit the nail on the head.
I do see it from all sides, I've flown most styles and have fought against most em too and that is why I may seem to you as one sided and narrow minded. And Laz is so old he hasn't seen most he's seen em all. :D
In the end we are all birds of the same feather or we wouldn't be shooting things in WWII circa aircraft. Yeah we may rib and poke each other, but that doesn't mean we don't give a dam.
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GV DWEEBS RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Originally posted by mars01
I agree with this DOK -
On the rest, I think Bronk hit the nail on the head.
I do see it from all sides, I've flown most styles and have fought against most em too and that is why I may seem to you as one sided and narrow minded. And Laz is so old he hasn't seen most he's seen em all. :D
In the end we are all birds of the same feather or we wouldn't be shooting things in WWII circa aircraft. Yeah we may rib and poke each other, but that doesn't mean we don't give a dam.
Cool.
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yep... that's all well and good but their ain't no saints in here and no one here is immune from having their covers yanked no matter how much of a self appointed icon they may think they are..
bottom line.... if you fly a late war fast plane you are doing it because of the obvious advantage that it gives you. There is nothing wrong with this... I ain't payin anyones bill and there is no rule against it. It is there so that new guys can have some hope of winning and so that people who are overly concerned about rank and score can have an efficient tool to achieve that goal... an advantage.
having all the planes in the same arena is also the very best way to have variety and choice.... just.... let's not kid ourselves about what we are doing when we choose the rides we choose. If you choose "fast and big guns" you are no more or less gamey than the guy who lowers his visor and HO's... both are allowed and you don't pay the HO or horde warriors bill either...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep... that's all well and good but their ain't no saints in here and no one here is immune from having their covers yanked no matter how much of a self appointed icon they may think they are..
...
Bite me. (tm)
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Lazs...
SRI, it's been over a decade since I cared about anyone's score in these games....much less my own. :) My point was that you participate in one facet of a multi-faceted game and then chose to expound on the other facets. Once again, sorry if this offends you, looking at scores and then making pronouncements is at best an inaccurate generalization. At worst, it's simply wrong. I have seen every fighter in the game used to do what your are talking about, not just the late war birds. Look, what I am trying to say is that your generalization is the same as some one saying that all German planes only HO. (...and yah, seen that one :D) That is, of course, silly.
BTW, I fly the birds I do so that I'm not at a disadvantage....not the other way around. :)
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heh gonzo.... bite me too tough guy. And you know where you can hide your trademark. Old guy fight... might be fun... might be worth going to the con to see you work yourself up to it. Bring your nurse. I'll bring mine.
nb... talk about your semantics.... you aren't flying late war planes to have an advantage... just to not be at a disadvantage..
OK.. I'll buy it... maybe a little more than semantics... If you believe what you just said tho then you are saying that my premise is correct... that the late war guys are fighting you if you get into an early war ride...
Guess what tho.... You are one of the ones to blame. If you make fields that are more than the minimum apart (3/4 sector?) then you are creating or at least fostering the problem.
please don't say bite me... I don't think I could take another old guy wanting a piece of me.... course... better than a young guy I suppose...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Lazs, I can't make the Con' this year. But if I could I doubt I'd even waste the time to say hello to you. At times you show great wit and insight, but more often than not you're a broken record.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
At times you show great wit and insight, but more often than not you're a broken record.
Dok, you just summed up the entire group of people who post on these BBS in one statement, me & you included.
Gotta love it every now & then.:t
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HAHAHAHA
Cmon you two, his whole response was so tounge and cheek with a dose of ribbing.
Bring your nurse. I'll bring mine.
please don't say bite me... I don't think I could take another old guy wanting a piece of me.... course... better than a young guy I suppose...
Don't take this crap so seriousely and the BBs become incredibly entertaining, with some insight, and a whole lot of fun.
When you lean on the BBs to be a seriouse place for only the most seriouse topics, with no fun and ribbing then you lose what little these things offer.
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Lazs...
What is this "semantics" business? You make a generalization based on limited data and then try to state it is just semantics?? You sure you aren't a politician? You do seem to have mastered the fine art of obfuscation. :D
As for me being part of the "problem", take your "infinity sux" whine and put it where the sun don't shine. If HT didn't want it...it wouldn't be in the rotation.
Well, since you have asked that I not tell you to "bite me", how does consume fecal matter and expire work for you? :lol
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i like trinity. beautiful graphics. might be my favorite.
hap
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gonzo... if you ever see me go ahead and ignore me or say hi... your descretion.. You want to come up and be a tough guy... even better. I would probly say hi to you but I got to admit that in the back of my mind I would be fighting the urge to dismiss you as simply being a boring blowhard. You might not really be one in person... allways best to give a guy a chance.
NB... the semantics end of it is obvious... you said that you don't fly late war planes to be at an advantage but fly then to not be at a disadvantage.... I think a case could be made for that being simple semantics..
It also proves my point... certain maps encourage late war planes by.... making it more of a disadvantage to fly early slow planes.... I do not see how you could be honest and not agree that if you make the fields closer together then it will take some of the disadvantage for early war planes away and/or encourage thier use and furballs.... conversely... If you make the fields far apart like on infinity..... you encourage another type of behavior and plane choice.
While I have no problem with infinitys terrain or visuals.... the fields are as badly arranged as I have seen on any map unless of course..... you have given up and only fly late war planes. It could go from the worst map to the best pretty simply.
And... I will be glad to join you in a meal of fecal matter while we wait for each other to expire if you so wish.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Ooooh...now I see!:O
You were talking about something new to avoid talking about what started our discussion. No problem. :)
As for the field layout, efforts were made to improve that situation. Most agreed that what was done did improve things (except you :eek: surprise).
As for the offer of dinner, while I appreciate the offer.... the menu isn't really to my liking. Feel free to go ahead without me. :)
Hap...
Glad you like it. If I can motivate myself at the Con, I will get Nate and Jon to show me the inner workings of the tile editor. Something besides the default tiles would really help the visuals.
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As for the field layout, efforts were made to improve that situation. Most agreed that what was done did improve things (except you surprise).
OH it's NB we have to thank for that nightmare of a MAP.:rolleyes:
Please don't make anymore maps.
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:rofl
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I think you'd have to threaten NB's life to get him to attempt another map and I suspect that wouldn't do it either.
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Good the last thing we need are more maps that encourage flying like a timmid safety dancer. There are way to many of em as it is and they are growing like crazy.
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Wonder if NUTTZ still has the terrain he and I started 5 years ago? All that wide open space would drive Certain People into apoplectic fits. It'd almost be worth the effort for that alone.
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Umm whats wrong with Trinity?
The Eastern part of the map is the best area to be in the area of 5,6,10,214, 239, etc. Furball loaded there.
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Nah. I'd just play AA until a good map came round. At least the way they've got that set up, there's some fightin' and shootin' going on all the time.
Basically, you engage for about 4-8 minutes and then the round ends and it starts all over in 30 seconds.
You have to face facts eventually. AH is still the best game I've ever played but only on some maps. Donut is awesome since it has FT. Fester is good.
So, you allocate your play time where it has the best return on investment in fun. That's why some AH maps drive me to AA, a game that isn't nearly as good as AH when both are delivering their best.
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I like trinity, I like fester, I like AA, I like people who make maps, please make more maps.
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Ignore Dok he's an #######.
The Eastern part of the map is the best area to be in the area of 5,6,10,214, 239, etc. Furball loaded there.
Yeah there are a couple good bases on that map, but the horde usually takes these first then your left with a cherry run fest that bores me to death.
As Toad said, I have a ton of other places to spend my time when the maps suck.
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I think in general the bases are a bit too far apart for my tastses on Infinity, but what drives me mad is the terrain itself. 21,000 foot peaks (with no snow) attop cliffs that rise from the shores of an ocean. I know Mount Everest is taller than that but not even close if you measure it from it's base, and it is not along the coast either.
So we have bases that are a bit far apart making for some rather boring commutes while chasing a bar dar looking for a fight, then you find there's a set of Himalayan peaks in your way and you have to climb into the stratosphere just to get to a nearby base. Almost guaranteeing the fight will be gone when you get there.
So, in some cases, the maps are more of an "interference with fun" than scores or captures...which WAS the subject of this TFH in the first place.
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So, in some cases, the maps are more of an "interference with fun" than scores or captures...which WAS the subject of this TFH in the first place.
LOL too funnay.
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yep... I thought I was doing a pretty good job of staying on topic and answering questions put to me.
nb.. I was not privy to your mail so don't know what the reaction you got in private was to moving the fields far apart but as I recall everyone who posted was happy with the close fields except the fluffers.... I know I am not the only one who likes some of the terrrain on infinity but hate the field spacing.
Perhaps you could tell us what moving the fields farther apart hoped to accomplish gameplay wise?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
Perhaps you could tell us what moving the fields farther apart hoped to accomplish gameplay wise?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Hoped to accomplish? Nah, it did accomplish it. The goal was to create a terrain that would be hard to reset. Remember, this was created at a time will the maps we had were AKdesert and the small maps. The small maps were being reset once per day at least and the desert....well, I didn't care for it and wanted to try my hand at an improvement.
The high mountains have a purpose also, note that they are zone dividers. They channel attacks from one zone to another. The idea being to create choke points where defenders have a chance to stop or, at least, slow down a horde.
As I stated when we first started talking about this, I didn't lay the fields out. That was done by someone else to expedite getting the terrain finished. Frankly, I probably wouldn't have done it any different had I been the one to lay the fields. Quick fights was not on my priority list. When the flaws in the field layouts were brought to my attention, I changed 90% of the GV fields to airfields. This cut down a lot of the distance between fields in each zone. I was not looking to reduce the flight distance between the zones.
On the upside, it did inspire Fester to do his terrains. He did a lot of the same things I did, he simply implimented them in a different way. After all of the pissin' & moanin' here about field spacing, he did a great job of taking that into account.
Lazs, step up to the plate. Grab the editor and create a terrain. BUT, remember...you have to try and balance the map for EVERYONE. Hell, no matter what you do, someone will find fault with it. So, keep an extra NOMEX suit handy. :D
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Yah, it was much better after you revised it.
Played it last night and the action was just too slow for my taste. I'll have to do something else until the map changes.
IMO, there's still way too many V-only fields.
I'm still perplexed why pure V-only fields should even exist. Are there any Airfields without a VH? Nope. So if one changed all the V-fields to A-fields nothing would really change for the treadheads; the same locations would all still have V's available.
OTOH, it would significantly cut down on A-field gaps and provide the opportunity for more fights in different directions.
I know you're not going to revise it again.
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Played it last night and the action was just too slow for my taste. I'll have to do something else until the map changes.
Yep I hit a lucky streak and actually got two days in a row to fly. I logged in Monday night, it was fly with the horde or long flights with very little fighting. So after a few long flights I just logged out.
Last night I logged in, 2 mins later went to AvA and had a blast. Most of the guys were there to fight and it was a lot of fun.
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nb... maybe memory fails me but didn't we have a version of infinity that had the fields a little closer together at first? Or maybe I am thinking of festers map.
I like the way festers is laid out about the best. I am no a puter dude but if I had to make a map it would duplicate festers map with some AK canyons in it and a fighter town in the middle. Might even be a way to make a fighter town and a tank town in the middle.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Yeah it was Festers that started with all bases min spacing, then he moved the outer bases farther apart to apease everyone.
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wow 4 pages of this nonsense.. ha ha ha...