Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: funkedup on August 13, 2001, 06:08:00 PM
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Some guys asked about this:
We had diversity training at one of my previous jobs. It was a one-day seminar that everybody had to attend. Basically they were trying to teach you not to be a racist/sexist/whateverist. It was aimed at the lowest common denominator. The training material assumed that straight white males had no sensitivity to other races, cultures, "lifestyles", etc, and that they, the trainers, were enlightening us with ideas we had never considered before.
Meanwhile I grew up playing ball with asians and hispanics and blacks, have gay friends and relatives, have had many roomates/friends/coworkers friends from all over the planet, etc. So I'm fuming, sitting there muttering "no toejam sherlock" for every brilliant insight provided by the training. I'm sure my boss needed it - he was a bit of a salamander to our Kenyan secretary. But for me it was an insult.
Fortunately it was mostly passive - lectures and Powerpoint, so I just zoned out and did some drawing and sneaky newspaper reading. I have attended some pretty stupid training sessions in my day and this was right up there with "team-building" and other moronic wastes of time and money. It was definitely a Dilbert moment.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]
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what a frikin' waste of money.
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We call it "Working with differences... Enhancing respect and trust".
We watched an excellent video about "Xs and Os" :rolleyes:
I've never been to a bigger waste of time before in my life.<edit>and I went to the theater to see "Phantom Menace"</edit>
AKDejaVu
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]
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The sad part is that is that because you are a white guy your supposed to sit there and let them talk down to you. However if you did that to a minority you would be labeled insensitive and sent back to diversity training. It’s very frustrating to have people who are supposed to be teaching people to not use stereo-types when making decisions, look at you and see white/male/racist/sexist.
Sensitivity training sux, their classes are a load of toejam and no I don't care if this hurts their feelings!
Apathy
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
the sad part is that is that because you are a white guy your suposed to sit there and let them talk down to you. however if you did that to a minority you would be labled insensitive and sent back to diversity trainning. it's very frustrating to have people who are suposed to be teaching people to not use stereo-types when making decisions, look at you and see white/male/racist/sexist.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: capt. apathy ]
Yep, it's a one way street.
Can you name a white jesse jackson?
David Duke comes to mind ...
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Ever notice how all racist sexist people are white males :rolleyes:
I never sat through anything related to that. I did however sit through the Canadian firearms safety course. So i can relate to being forced to sit and listen to some moron talk down to me and remind me how stupid I "gun owners" are. And i had to pay for the privilege.
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On a similar note:
Q: How many sensitive guys does it take to change a light bulb??
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A: 13, one to change it and 12 to form a support group so he can talk about how that made him feel.
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What do they actually tell you at the diversity training? Do they allow you to argue or clarify the points? Like "white people were buying black slaves from black slaveowners", "white people also used to be slaves", "white people (Brits and US) are the ones who put a stop to slavery for moral reasons and enforced it", etc.?
miko
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No Miko.. they tell you that regardless of age, skin color, nationality, religion, gender, physical handicap or anything else... people should be treated with the same level of respect. And... if you are a white hetrosexual male US citizen, you will be fired for treating anyone else in a manner that singles them out.
AKDejaVu
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I've sat through the class too. It's just a way for the corporation to cover their bellybutton so when some idiot screws up, the company can say; "It's not our fault, every employee goes through sensitivity training."
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
And... if you are a white hetrosexual male US citizen, you will be fired for treating anyone else in a manner that singles them out.
AKDejaVu
But,... if you are not white, not heterosexual, not male, not Christian, or handicapped, you can insult whites, heterosexuals, males or Christians at will.
Those whom you insult will be called racist/sexist/homophobic etc, if they object.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992:
It's just a way for the corporation to cover their bellybutton so when some idiot screws up, the company can say; "It's not our fault, every employee goes through sensitivity training."
yeah, and it drives me up the wall to see how effective JJ and all other rasict/gay/feminist pimps are in shaking down corporations.
The amount of money spent on this gunk is tremendous, and we all are paying for this.
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Here is a story involving my son to kind of illustrate the way political correctness singles out white/straight/non-handicapped/males.
A couple years ago my son was in 8th grade (14 yr. old) there was a gay kid in my sons class. One day this kid grabs my sons’ ass. Not surpassingly my son put him on the floor. (Which by the way is exactly the response I would expect if a straight boy had grabbed one of my daughters in a sexual way).
So the school decides that my son should be expelled for the rest of the year. Not for fighting but for 'hate crimes' and 'homophobic behavior' the only way I stopped it was telling the kids parents that I would press rape and sexual harassment charges against there son. (And suggesting the labels that could be put on their son, like homosexual pedophile, juvenile sex offender, etc.) so eventually they pressed the school into dropping the issue with my son.
His action had nothing to do with this kid being gay, anybody who grabs someone in an unwanted way should expect to deal with the consequences. But since he was a 'minority' he can do whatever he wants and if you take offence or speak out against the minority you are obviously the insensitive bigot.
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Yeah.. like we believe that one cpt.
Next thing you'll be telling us that if your kid would have grabbed a girl's bellybutton and been laid out by a right cross from the girl the school would have threatened to expell HIM.
Er... wait.
AKDejaVu
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exaactly djv.
btw if you got kids you might find it interesting that it was portland public schools. (noticed your location in your info)
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i had to do a 3-day retreat of that crap when i worked for legal aid.
we had to sing songs, talk about what makes us cranky and other stupid stuff. we had to draw a 'spirit animal' that would guide us through the learning, then cut it out and wear it on our shirts. it was pathetic and expensive to the people who funded it....ya know: taxpayers.
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<Giggle>
We dun' have that here to any large extent
<giggle>
Paper cut out spirit animal?
<ROFL>
Too amusing :)
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Had it here at the Lazy B too. Waste of time...1% of the population makes 99% look like they need diversity training.
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mrfish
I have to ask :)
what was your spirit animal.. that'd been the funniest thing to watch. They'd kicked me out as I wouldn't have been able to keep a "straight" face :)
Don't worry guys, with the population of blacks er african americans growing at a rate faster than er the white pop and more and more gays coming out of the closet everyday, we will be the minority soon enough :( Think JJ will represent us when that day comes?
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Originally posted by mietla:
But,... if you are not white, not heterosexual, not male, not Christian, or handicapped, you can insult whites, heterosexuals, males or Christians at will.
Those whom you insult will be called racist/sexist/homophobic etc, if they object.
Dude, if that can happen where you are, I'd say it was time to find another place to work.
I agree that for the majority, "Sensitivity" training is a waste of time and effort. But I'll tell you for sure that where I work, insulting or demeaning ANYONE because of race, religion, gender or orientation will get you in a world of trouble - and that includes white Christian male heterosexuals.
Also, I don't know what kind of training sessions you had, but the ones here did NOT assume the only people to be offensive would be white Christian male heterosexuals.
And in spite of it, I hear a great deal of very sexist commentary. It seems that, regardless of race, religion or origin, the one thing guys can agree on is that its fair game to make comments about women - as long as they aren't in the room. So, maybe a little training ain't such a bad idea :)
- Yoj
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Originally posted by Yoj:
And in spite of it, I hear a great deal of very sexist commentary. It seems that, regardless of race, religion or origin, the one thing guys can agree on is that its fair game to make comments about women - as long as they aren't in the room. So, maybe a little training ain't such a bad idea :)
It is not harassment if it does not involve the woman.
Our society outlaws/controls objectionable ways of acting. Those guys are voicing their thoughts, so your problem with them would be that they think the wrong way.
Are there supposed to be kinds of thoughts that are legal to think (at lieast till the mind-reader is developed) but which cannot be shared with friends?
Do you really think that wondering how good a women is in bed is objectionable (if done in company that does not mind hearing it)?
What would you tell such a guy in sencitivity training?
You could try dispelling someone's racial prejudices by producing scientific proofs of their equalities but you cannot argue the fact that women are enjoyable and natural to have sex with, unless you are an ortodox catolic, of course.
Fantacising and speculating about enjoying something we do not have right is very natural for humans - driving a car, owning a house, having sex with a woman, driving over your boss... ;)
As long as that fantacising does not turn into objectionable actions, there is nothing here.
Oops...
It looks like I am here conducting a sencitivity training with you imploring you to be sencitive and tolerant to your "sexist" fellows' habits... :)
miko
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Actually Miko, those are not the kinds of comments I was referring to. I have no objection to comments on a woman's attractiveness, or even raunchier speculation. As you said, its natural. So long as the woman does not have to put up with hearing it if she doesn't want to its not a problem.
The kind of comments I refer to are the ones that are demeaning blanket statements. Comments what women do, or think, or are capable of as though they are all the same. And I find them a problem not because the men making them are not "thinking proper thoughts" but because its rampant prejudice. The idea that anyone can look at another person and assume they know something about them is the root of racism, sexism, nationalism and all the other "isms" that plague our species. And it matters not whether its a guy looking at a well-built blonde, a Greek looking at a Turk, an American goodole boy looking at a 16 year old black kid in Gangsta get-up, or that same 16 year old kid looking at YOU. If they assume they know something about the person they are looking at, they are pre-judging, and its dangerous - even when they assume good things
To me, that's what this sensitivity training is supposed to be about. The fact that its badly done, done for many of the wrong reasons, usually insulting, and largely ineffective does not mean its intent is not valuable. Unfortunately it tries to do for adults something their parents should have done for them as children.
But that's another story.
- Yoj
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: Yoj ]
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The sad part is that is that because you are a white guy your supposed to sit there and let them talk down to you. However if you did that to a minority you would be labeled insensitive and sent back to diversity training.
Well Cap'n:
Ya don't have to be white but, definitely Male. If you meet the criteria it is assumed that you are in need of sensitivity training, hehe "all men are dogs" after all :)
I can tell you though, if it weren't for some messing it up for all of us over the years, this crud would never have started in the first place. But, IMO, in the workplace, it is more for fluff and appearance than anything. If the watermelon hit the fan, management could say they have such a program in place and then with a clear conscience, place the blame on the prro dumb bastige that spread his ignorance in the first place.
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it was an owl ok?!?!? sheesh...
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Ever notice how all racist sexist people are white males
No, I haven't :)
The racist I know are all stupid and ignorant no matter how smart they have thought they are. The sexists are very similar to the racists, just a buncha handsomehunkes who can't keep their stupidity to themselves.
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Also, I don't know what kind of training sessions you had, but the ones here did NOT assume the only people to be offensive would be white Christian male heterosexuals.
And in spite of it, I hear a great deal of very sexist commentary. It seems that, regardless of race, religion or origin, the one thing guys can agree on is that its fair game to make comments about women - as long as they aren't in the room. So, maybe a little training ain't such a bad idea
Yoj: LOL! Same as it ever was :) I am sensitive when it calls for it, I respect all because I don't want a buncha pissed off people around me.
I am insensitive when my wife isn't around and I aint gonna offend anyone cuz its fun at times when I'm with guys. White guys don't have the monoploy on being guys :)
Training cannot make me change from being a dork but, if I go over board and offend others, I might get the livin watermelon knocked outta me. Give respect, get respect.
Legislating it will not work though. However, a good training program will provide useful information not, drivel which people resent.
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Originally posted by mrfish:
it was an owl ok?!?!? sheesh...
I take it no pictures ?
:)
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mercifully - no.
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Originally posted by Yoj:
Actually Miko, those are not the kinds of comments I was referring to. I have no objection to comments on a woman's attractiveness, or even raunchier speculation...
The kind of comments I refer to are the ones that are demeaning blanket statements. Comments what women do, or think, or are capable of as though they are all the same...
Sorry, I misread your post, Yoj. When conjuring an image of a bunch of men discussing a woman in an objectionable way, my first thought was that they are talking about her physical atributes, not professional qualifications...
Anyway, just such real prejudice is very unlikely to be helped by any kind of training because is is rooted in person's experience, intellect and education - not something thta is possible to fix.
The good knwes is that neither should anything be done about it. Such stupid and uneducated people are rarely in a position of power and authority anyway, so they cannot really affect women's chance of advancement anyway.
In today's US economy it is very difficult to hire a qualifies specialist, so any bigot who somehow ended up in executive position would only hurt his business by losing a chance to hire a qualifued women to fill the slot.
Of course there are quite a few real physiological reasons why women are inferior to man in some situations/occupations - individually or on average.
In some cases they are superior for similar reasons.
<S>
miko
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Forced tolerance, the biggest ingredient in the best recipe for intolerance, inequality and ignorance.
Born and raised in Wash, DC... I don't need no stupid diversity training.. *I* was the minority in my neighborhood.
-SW
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Originally posted by Mickey1992:
It's just a way for the corporation to cover their bellybutton so when some idiot screws up, the company can say; "It's not our fault, every employee goes through sensitivity training."
Do those morons pushing this crap really think that there is a single person who takes this "training" and walks out with a revelation...
"You mean blacks are really human? I did not know that. Thank you for letting me know"
... and then changes his wicked ways?
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Such stupid and uneducated people are rarely in a position of power and authority anyway, so they cannot really affect women's chance of advancement anyway.
Miko you're much more of an optimist than I am. I think its gotten a lot better than it was, say, a generation back. But I think the reason women see advancement on merit now is that they can raise a real stink about it with some legal backing. And the fact remains that women are still paid less for doing the same work more often than not.
I think the folks here may disagree on whether the intent is valuable, but we all pretty much agree that forced diversity training is not worth much.
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Did ya keep it ?
Maybe, you could scan it for us :)
Saw
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Such stupid and uneducated people are rarely in a position of power and authority anyway, so they cannot really affect women's chance of advancement anyway.
Man where do you work?
Most people I know think of the work place as a septic tank with the turds floating to the top. In the modern American work place the ability to kiss-ass and pass a piss test are much more important than trivial things like competence or intellect.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
Man where do you work?
Most people I know think of the work place as a septic tank with the turds floating to the top. In the modern American work place the ability to kiss-ass and pass a piss test are much more important than trivial things like competence or intellect.
Where do YOU work?
All my professional life I was surrounded by most qualified and diligent people I could imagine. I have never, ever seen an undeserved promotion or anyone kissing someone else's butt.
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Originally posted by mietla:
All my professional life I was surrounded by most qualified and diligent people I could imagine. I have never, ever seen an undeserved promotion or anyone kissing someone else's butt.
is that sarcasm? :) i've never worked anywhere that wasn't a pit of vipers.
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Where do YOU work?
All my professional life I was surrounded by most qualified and diligent people I could imagine. I have never, ever seen an undeserved promotion or anyone kissing someone else's butt.
Man I need to get me one of them jobs.
How long have you been in the work force?
In the last 20 years I’ve worked many places and in many types of business from office work to construction. Let me tell you if you've got a job where you see nobody getting an undeserved promotion, no ass-kissing, nobody’s nephew or son-in-law running a department he knows nothing about, nobody being overlooked for promotion he deserves because he doesn't go drinking or golfing with the 'in crowed', no incompetent given a promotion or job to meet a quota, and your boss knows what he's doing or has the sense to admit he needs help when he doesn't. (And you have been there long enough and pay attention well enough to even recognize these things when you see them) then hold on to that job with both hands 'cause buddy you found the Promised Land.
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25 years, 20 of them in the US. I am an software engineer and most of those years I've spent working for small startups. They just can't afford incompetence. Everybody has to carry his load, the competence is immediately visible.
It takes a 5 minute interview to determine if the applicant is full of yogurt, and you just don;t hire him.
I can imagine a government job though, and obviously I've heard my share of horror stories.
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I've seen quite a bit of promotion based on merit where I work. There is actually a "good-ol-boys network" in a few of the groups... and some people are jealous of it... right up until they realize that it is a group of stagnent engineers that haven't really contributed much for 10 years. They usually blow by them after their first year.
AKDejaVu
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I work for the government...
Kissing ass, incompetence and complete lack of intelligence appear to be the key words the government looks for in someone's resume.
-SW
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Incompetent people promoted beyond their abilities are obedient and follow the orders.
A competent, bright and honest professional is most difficult to control by pencil pushers.
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In every large organisation, punishment for failure exceeds reward for risk. So action and innovation become exception rather then rule. In that case abilities of people are not important and not used. Once advancement and compensatio are not related to personal abilities, it is illogical to demand "fairness" in it. If you want to be compensated for your ability, go where it is needed. That means go where there is growth, change, risk.
A person who chose to go working for a large bank has no business demanding anything bacause he/she can be replaced by a less competent person with no problem (to people responcible for operation). In best case your immediate boss may value you but not have financial authority to reward you.
You want to work for the boss who is the owner so he/she can pay you without anyone's approval. If your boss to depends on you and knows it, you won't have traouble with fairness.
But you have to share the risk with the boss - if the business does not work out, you both suffer.
miko
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That toejam only happens in the states I guess.
There is no such training in here. Only prejudice ive seen is towards women, homosexuals and retards.
I have never experienced heavy racism in here. I am a black/latin american, 80% of my friends are white (contrary to popular belief, there are more white people where I live). Lots of tolerance here. In fact, ive never had a girlfriend of my own race, all of them have been white (the one I'm going out with now is REALLY white, very irish :cool: )
Its that way here because the way kids are raised here. There are no different "groups". You never see blacks with blacks, whites with whites, etc. here in PR. NEVER. people just dont care.
However, I'm sure that if I move to the states, I'm gonna have to get used to a few changes.
I consider racists both the white racist, and the black person who has no tolerance towards whites and call all of THEM racists.
This training has nothing to do with changing peoples minds. Its just a "get out of court FREE" card for your company.