Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GrimCO on May 09, 2006, 10:14:24 PM
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Pfffffffffffft
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hehehehe i bet many people exploit this by pulling up at the last second so its your fault instead of theres.
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I collided today. I don't do that very often, but I was in a heavy P47 loaded with bombs and rockets, heading for a Jabo Raid.
Got orders to engage a 110, so I rolled, he rolled, I rolled, we swapped lead, and he flew well.
I came around and gained E far too quickly as those pigs do when full of ordinance, then couldn't pull out fast enough as he continued his turn already in progress.
I hit him. I died. As it should have been. Model worked. He didn't get penalized for my "ram" even though it was not intentional. Best way to unplug the ram as a "tactic", kind of like killshooter.
Worked for me and I'm the one who died, and rightly so.
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I would suggest in the interest of fairness that the collision be detected on both front ends before blame and damage is assigned.
And the collider should receive fatal damage.
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Collision model is ok. I have collided, but it has allways been my own mistake.
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This horse has been beaten to the extreme and explained by HT so many times that even I understand it.................and I can`t read or write/type. :D
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I still don't quite understand every itty bitty nut & bolt of the code & how it works but I believe it's as fair as it can be until every person has a connection that is equal & every persons computer is identical.
Afterall; it's your PC that decides if you collide or not. It's not the server in grapevine Texas, or the other guys PC even, his PC decides if HE collided.
Apparently from what I gather, there is really only one way to change it so the collision is decided in a manner that assigns damage to both people after they hit; for instance;
If I were in a collision with Docc - It would have to be coded in a way that EITHER my PC or Doccs decides the entire outcome instead of my PC deciding what happened to me & Doccs PC deciding what happened to him, which is the way it is now.
Could you just imagine once you figure in PC processing speed & lag, just how many problems that would create? You think it's bad now? I myself would get pretty pissed off if I saw myself avoid a collision & then a couple minutes later after I disengage & I'm flying home safe, nearing the end of my landing approach with my 4 or 5 kills ( <--- NOT ).....my wing rips off & I get a message that says "Doccs PC has decided after much deliberation that it was you who should crash & burn"
And then to top it off I would probably get an angry P.M. from Docc later asking me how I flew away undamaged when he got his engine knocked out. ( his PC would assign damage to his plane faster than mine - LAG remember? )
No offense intended Docc, just using you as an imaginary example :aok
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I had azrael in a P47 and according to my text buffer he collided with me, he died a few seconds later, seemed appropriate with text buffer statements. What was inappropriate was his putting my name in his vox channel and coming over the radio congratulating me for ramming him and then calling me mutha F*****..................sure glad it wasn't my 11 year old playing at the time. Thank goodness for film rolling.
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Wrong Brenjen......either computer can decide if there was a collision and who was to blame.
What I don't like about the current system is that even if I don;t see a collision on my computer his computer can say I collided with him. And while the theory may be 100% correct, in reality it doesn't work correctly 100% of the time because it is based on guesstimated positions instead of actual positions.
If I see a collision on my computer l expect to get damage, and I wouldn;t mind waiting a few extra milliseconds while both computers (instead of only 1) decide:
1. who did the colliding
2. who gets the damage and how much
What bothers me is when I don't see a collision and his computer decides I was collided with him and assesses damage on me. Or the damage model that the damage assessment uses where one can deliberately ram another's tail and only lose an engine or prop while the other loses a tail. It's not supposed to happen according to the theory, but it does (not all the time). As long as this happens people will always complain about the current collision model.
If the collision message and damage was assessed 1 or 2 seconds later after the true positions of the planes was evaluated I don't think anyone would mind because the one who did the colliding would be expecting damage and the victim would not be assessed damage.
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Originally posted by Docc
Wrong Brenjen......either computer can decide if there was a collision and who was to blame.
What I don't like about the current system is that even if I don;t see a collision on my computer his computer can say I collided with him.
...snip....
Nope, nope and nope.
Only your computer decides if you collide.
Only his computer decides if he collides.
Damage is assigned to YOU by your computer, damage is assigned to him by HIS computer.
Docc, the guy who WROTE the code showed how it was written in the last big collision thread. Thats whats in the code. If you see things inconsistant with that, post the film.
So far, you havent posted such evidence that (in essence) HT is lying to you. How bout refraining from spewing stuff without fouindation?
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Wrong Brenjen......either computer can decide if there was a collision and who was to blame.
I'm sorry, that's incorrect according to HTC. If your PC (front end) sees a miss, you didn't hit anything. If your PC (front end) sees a collision, you collided. The other players PC only sends it's positional information, it's your PC that decides if you collided not his.
What bothers me is when I don't see a collision and his computer decides I was collided with him and assesses damage on me.
Again; according to HTC that doesn't happen.
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Hmmm lemme see .
I had a chiose last nite .
A: keep going in the direction i was going and hit the ground. or
B: Pull up and probably hit the fw coming at me.
I went with b .
Sorry Shawk hitting the ground was certian death. Thought i might have a chance at avoiding the collision .:D
Bronk
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I apologize to you people for having got it wrong.
But there are others in this thread and other threads who obviously think there is a problem with either collision or damage assessment.
Until I get some films, I have said all I will say on the subject.
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I like pie.:)
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Cherry, apple, strawberry, or lemon merangue?
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I apologize to you people for having got it wrong
Don't include me in that. You have no need to apologize to me for any reason. I took no offense. We all get confused by printed words, & the discussion about the collisions having to do with techie stuff it's even easier to get lost. Hey where am I?
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You ram, you take damage. You miss, you don't. How ****ing hard is that to understand?
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Originally posted by ROC
Got orders to engage a 110...
You take orders in a game? lol.
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Last week I was going into a HO and was careing a DT so I pulled up and dropped my DT just before he went under me and my DT hit and killed him.Has anyone had a DT to kill them?
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Collision model isnt consisten though. Sometimes I get rammed in the back I die and he flies off or get rammed in the back and he dies. When I ram someone in the back I sometimes die or vise versa. The big problem with it, that its not consistent. Ive noticed some people purposely fly up into you just to ram and usually I die to this. :furious
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Well, I'm not sure how it works, because I normally don't pester HiTech for answers that I probably would not understand in the first place. I also don't make a habit of being a complainer and stirring the pot. I guess the only reason I got annoyed (and truth be told that's all it really was), was due to several instances of me having nothing to do with a collision and dying because of it. Last night I was landed on the runway with my tail facing an LA7 who attempted to vulch me, but ran into me instead. It said that I collided with him, and I subsequently died...LOL
Collisions during a dogfight happen, and normally I take the stance that it was my fault for allowing the other individual to get so close to me. If he rammed me, he had a pretty fair chance of getting a shot on me anyway. I was just befuddled as to how I collided with someone when my tail was facing him and I was stopped on a runway... LOL ????? I guess my computer decided that I don't clean the keyboard often enough and decided to exact some revenge, which I considered to be rather distasteful on my computer's part :-)
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He was firing when he hit you. That (the gunfire) is what killed you, the text just informed you that your PC had determined you & he were in the same place @ the same time, hence the message. Here is one link that is a good read:
http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm
I would post specific links to threads on these boards but for some reason the complete link won't show up in my address bar for AH forums individual threads.Just do a search for "collision" & you'll get a somewhat fair picture of whats going on.
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Originally posted by Stang
You take orders in a game? lol.
Shut up and get me a beer, slacker.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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ROC I was on the runway just starting to roll when a guy vulches me from 6 oclock. He hits me, and it says I collided. Sometimes it works, most times it doesnt.
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I've had that happen too, and I hate it, but I understand that with the delay inherent in online gaming, my PC decides that he and I are occupying the same space at the same time, hence a collision message. He may have passed, on his front end, just past my nose, but in the time it takes to xmit the data and crunch the numbers, the relative positions have changed just enough to trigger the message. It doesn't always address every situation in a way that makes obvious sense (ie telling you you rammed someone while sitting still), it still works as well as is possible.
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I had a good film from a while ago that shows why collisions happen only on one front end, and how you may have seen his plane fly through your plane (hence "you have collided") when on his front end he was no where near your plane and thus did not collide or receive damage.
In the AvA during the Pacific set, I landed a zeke on the deck of a carrier, and a squaddie landed shortly thereafter. While I waited for the reload, I look to my right, and squaddie is sitting there, a few hundred feet off to my right, hovering in mid air.
I asked him what he was doing, and he said re-arming. I asked where he was, he said right on top of me. I was laughing, and started filming.
His plane starts slowly side-slipping my way as I am watching. It eventually makes it to the carrier (remember, on his front end, he is already on the carrier, and had we been enemies, he would have received the "you have collided" message because he is right on top of me). He gets close enough to where our planes almost touch.
Suddenly, I drop through the darn CV deck, and "crash".
Interesting thing, in reality we were both lagging or something. In the film, BOTH OF US are off the carrier, sitting in mid air as happy as can be -- for a good 2 mins if I remember correctly. And at no point did he and I have the same perception of where the other one was.
So again, you get damaged and die because your computer decided you were both in the same place at the same time. His computer may believe something VERY different.
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Give me my moment of self pity damnit! My computer has it in for me, and that's the bottom line! LOL
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You take orders in a game? lol.
See, this is how it works, I make a committment to a squad. Purely by choice. When we fly squad night, we have a chain of command, it's what we sign on for, it's what we agree too, it's what we do.
Sort of like Scenarios, which I am a firm believer in (imagine that)
So yes, I do. This is how I chose to enjoy my game. Sometimes I make the flights and orders, sometimes someone else does, sometimes it's a free for all.
So, was there a point to your post or just just trying to see if you got a clever atta boy for your skill and wit?
:D
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Greetings Grim
I didn't know ya moved over to AH.
The Arena is busy every night in here........well.........actu ally it is busy all the time.
:aok
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Originally posted by ROC
See, this is how it works, I make a committment to a squad. Purely by choice. When we fly squad night, we have a chain of command, it's what we sign on for, it's what we agree too, it's what we do.
Sort of like Scenarios, which I am a firm believer in (imagine that)
So yes, I do. This is how I chose to enjoy my game. Sometimes I make the flights and orders, sometimes someone else does, sometimes it's a free for all.
So, was there a point to your post or just just trying to see if you got a clever atta boy for your skill and wit?
:D
I enjoy being in a squad, but to have someone barking orders to me? I don't think so, I was in a squad like that before, but never again. If someone in squad ASKS for my help I'm willing to give it, or if I see they need help I'll be there for them.
But to each his own.
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Ive collided loads, but mainly because they miss, or run out of ammo and ram me, such as SHawk's ram with me yesterday in my 262, we went HO, got his wing we rammed and we killed eachother, I pulled away but the ram still counted. It also matters what the player on the other end sees, like he could have lag and see something else and you ram him but he doesn't die, happens alot to me
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Originally posted by E25280
In the AvA during the Pacific set, I landed a zeke on the deck of a carrier, and a squaddie landed shortly thereafter. While I waited for the reload, I look to my right, and squaddie is sitting there, a few hundred feet off to my right, hovering in mid air.
I have seen planes do the hover over water thing from carriers in the MA several times myself.
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Yesterday, I rolled from the cv to 19. I engaged a con when I spotted a nik divin on me hot. I was at such disadvantage I chose to take the head-on pass with the nik in my seafire. (not smart, but besides the point) I get a couple hits on him and he pulls up in to me and collides. I get a message saying whoever has collided with you. As a result my spit lost elevators. So as I start kickin in rudder, I look behind me and see him on the way into the drink, yet he pulls out and flys away. I said, aint that some mess. Oh well lets see if we can it get home. OMWB to the cv i see the guy lands 2 kills after colliding with me. Lovely. Inb the cv it starts to turn, so i decide to try for the ditch, didnt work yayy.
It was no innocent pass on my part, mind you. But, I was a little annoyed that he had collided, scored a victory or 2 and was able to land. There was no messg saying that I had collided with him, yet Im down an elevator and end up crashing.
:confused:
-helbound
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Helbound, you took damage from guns. Since we don't know what his FE saw, we can't tell if he took serious damage (flight surfaces, engine oil, PW, etc), or if he just made enough contact to knock off the tailwheel or something minor.
If you received the "Soandso collided with you message", but did not receive a "You have collided" message, and took damage, you took that damage from weapons, not from the collision. He, in this instance, would have taken damage from the collision, but not necessarily serious damage.
Sometimes you'll lose a wing when you ram, sometimes something useless like flaps or landing gear, but only the guy whose system registers the collision takes damage from it. Mind you, there are situations in which both PCs register a collision (normally one right after the other), and in these instances both planes will receive damage, since both FEs decide that the player occupied the space currently filled with the other guy's plane, but this doesn't sound like what happened in your case.
Clear as mud?
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Hubks, why don't you and I do a test ?
You seem to be the most vociferous of the few defenders of the collision model, and I (along with many others) believe there are inherent inequities in it and would like to make it better.
We can meet in the DA any day and any time between 8am and 1pm your time (US central time?). We will fly and film 6 flights in C47s (no guns).
Each of us will:
1. attempt a nose to tail collision or near miss until one of us sees a collision
2. nose to nose near miss (until one of us sees a collision)
3. 90 degree hit
Lets see who gets the collision messages and the damage.
We will both film all flights and send each other the films. If/when a problem exhibits itself we can send the films to HTC.
I live 13 hours ahead of you and fly with lag all the time.
Pick a day and a time and let me know.
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Actually Docc, how about we don't? I personally find attempting to explain anything or communicate with you to be unpleasant at best, and absolutely frustrating at worst. Despite repeated explanations by the game designer, and seeing the actual code, you still maintain that it's broken, that what I see on a daily basis is impossible, that what you see didn't happen, and that the guy who wrote the code is an idiot.
I already know how the code works, and I know it's implications in the game. I have no reason to believe you will accept the results in good faith, nor do I think you will be any more reasonable, nor any less of an outspoken critic of the system.
For these reasons, I'm going to refuse to participate in your test, and I honestly hope your frustration and inability to understand (or at least accept) how things work in the game eventually drive you to either quit criticizing the normal function of a system within the game that you refuse to accept as such (best for all involved), or quit altogether (good enough for me). It makes no difference to me, so long as I don't have to listen to the same BS every time I log in. When someone provides a strong case for the collision model malfunctioning (ie posts film, or details a scenario which we can all replicate), I might be more willing to discuss the matter, but until such time, I'll let you and "the many others" who think it's broken work yourselves into a frenzy.
Good day.
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Ok, so a test in a controlled environment that might prove either of us right or wrong is not to your liking. You want to see other people's test results so you can dispute the results if/when necessary.
There are lots of things in this game that do not work as intended at all times for various reasons: look at the Bug report forum, gvs that can't be killed at times, AI acks that don't fire at enemies, rubber bullets, positional discrepancies.......the collision model is another.
I don't think HT is an idiot nor have I called anyone an idiot.....you did. We are just trying resolve an game issue that many people have a problem with in a reasonable way.
The offer remains open.
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I'll do it Docc. If only to give you a good picture of how it works. Is the collision model the same in the DA as it is in the MA? I would hate to waste my time trying to film an accurate representation of how it works only to find out it's different in the DA.
Edit: You can PM me to set up the details if you like. I will be free all day tomorrow.
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well, hubs, thats a possible explanation i geuss thx. I didnt hear or see a shot from the rammer in question, but I really dont worry about the small stuff so much. Im just working on my post numbers i geuss.
Docc did mention rubber bullets, thats a funny thing. It happens to everyone (I think) so its all good. Seems to occur in cycles of 1 week on 3 weeks off =). Now you may come at me with connex stuff this and that, but I do believe rubber bullets is a pox that affects everyone sooner or later.
Bender
BTW, thats no ordinary rabbit
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FWIW I've seen some very suspicious collisions (Spits running into IL2's and suffering no damage, etc.) lately. Making them more suspicious is the people who seem to land multiple kills despite sometimes having multiple collisions in a sortie. And a lot of these guys don't fire guns during the attempt, which is a give away - no tracers, no sparks on the barrel, no firing sound.
As good as the collision code is, with lag and all it's not impossible that some players have found a way to trick the system.
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Ovr so many longg years ive comet o realize that this game is awsome, and that the collision model should d be klept the way it alwaus has been.
ok yeah i love aces high.
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This has actually been a pretty good thread. Could someone now say something really stupid or offensive and get it onto a more useless track. BTW, thank tou all for an explanation that helps me at least accept, if not enjoy, the model.
.-MI-{Shillelagh}
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Originally posted by Viper9th
Ive collided loads, but mainly because they miss, or run out of ammo and ram me, such as SHawk's ram with me yesterday in my 262, we went HO, got his wing we rammed and we killed eachother, I pulled away but the ram still counted. It also matters what the player on the other end sees, like he could have lag and see something else and you ram him but he doesn't die, happens alot to me
Sorry Viper9th, but that was a HO shot, we did NOT collide with anything but bullets. No collision message on my FE and I'm quite sure there was none on yours.
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Originally posted by Docc
There are lots of things in this game that do not work as intended at all times for various reasons: look at the Bug report forum, gvs that can't be killed at times, AI acks that don't fire at enemies, rubber bullets, positional discrepancies.......the collision model is another.
I don't think HT is an idiot nor have I called anyone an idiot.....you did. We are just trying resolve an game issue that many people have a problem with in a reasonable way.
The offer remains open.
Have you set things up with brenjen yet? I would love to see BOTH films posted. I think you'll find the results revealing, Docc.
DOnt pick on hub -- he's not the most vociferous defender of the collision model, he's the most patient. I thought this thread was dead after you said, "Until I have some films, I have said all I am going to say on the subject."
Where are the films?
I guess you changed your mind, becasue you're still strutting....and insisting that you are right and more experienced players (with literally THOUSANDS of hours more AH time, and more opportunity to see this "problem" you claim is so pervasive) tell you your perceptions are wrong.
And thats why Hub declined your offer. If you're rigidly ranting about the collision model after all this, you are a fanatic -- "someone who wont change his mind and cant change the subject" in the words of Churchill.
Please hush up unitl you have some proof.
BTW, "bugs" usually happen when 2 areas of code interact in unexpected ways. What HT has told you precludes the chance of such a bug: the damage code occurs in onlyone place, and it is only ABLE to assign damage to the plane that hits on its own front end. Your bug theory would require the program to write its own code secretly, assigning damage to the other plane...and thats not logical, thats magical voodoo thinking. Dont expect others to take that seriously.
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Originally posted by MIShill
This has actually been a pretty good thread. Could someone now say something really stupid or offensive and get it onto a more useless track. BTW, thank tou all for an explanation that helps me at least accept, if not enjoy, the model.
.-MI-{Shillelagh}
Green is the color of bile, snot, and pond scum.
(How'd I do, MI?)
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Have you set things up with brenjen yet? I would love to see BOTH films posted. I think you'll find the results revealing, Docc.
We have been in contact & it was my understanding the films would be made available to everyone. Docc is supposed to find out from Skuzzy if the DA model is the same as the MA model before we proceed. I would prefer it that way, then the film would have more meaning & the "discussion" shouldn't evolve into...."yeah but that was in the DA, in the MA I get hit & die everytime so the films don't mean anything" or vice-versa.
I realize that could still happen, but at least with film it might put some peoples questions to rest. I know I have filmed things & reviewed them later & it seemed to show a different series of events than what I remember. :lol ( I forsee a whole new topic forming about the accuracy of the films) In the end we as a community might just have to accept the fact that nothing is perfect, not the collision model & not the film of it.
I believe it is as good as it can be with the current hardware & internet available. A lot of the problems people have seems to be just individual understanding (or misunderstanding) & how they percieve what their eyes are telling them.
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I was in a Tiger tank and got "collide" message twice.
the "collider" was in an il2 and received no damage.
Now tell me the collision modelling aint wrong!
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Originally posted by Hammy
I was in a Tiger tank and got "collide" message twice.
the "collider" was in an il2 and received no damage.
Now tell me the collision modelling aint wrong!
You didn't take any damage from the collision; if you did get damaged at the same time you recieved the collision message it was ordnance that got you. Your PC simply informed you that your tank & his plane occupied the same place at the same time for an instant. How do you know he didn't suffer any damage, did you ask him? Did you ask him if he also recieved a collision message? My guess is, his PC didn't register a collision.
B.T.W. - Skuzzy replied to Doccs question " Is the collision model in the DA the same as in the MA?"
& said "Yes. Just FYI. It (the collision model) cannot be altered. It is the same everywhere." So Docc & I are going to attempt to test the model. Any requests you the general player base would like us to try? I'm just there as a target, as I said before I believe the collision model is as accurate as it can be under the circumstances so I have no "testing preferences"
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Nothing here that shouldn't be obvious:
1: go nose to nose and make sure you both die to get a baseline.
2: go nose to nose and one of you try to pull up at the last second to attempt to get one to collide on his front end and the other not to.
3. Repeat #2 with the other person doing the pulling up / out.
Repeat #2 and #3 until about 10 "successful" collisions occur each, so no one can claim that one collision means nothing. (Note we will all be duly impressed with your patience and dedication if you actually do it 10 times each).
Premise being to see if in any of the situations you find someone gets damaged without getting the message "you have collided".
Of course, both be filming so that both films of the same collision can be posted with appropriate system messaging.
actually just thought of a situation where it could appear you took damage without colliding. If you pull up TOO QUICKLY and RIP YOUR OWN WINGS OFF, you could appear to take damage from a collision where you never actually collided. So maybe make sure you are flying level and your speed is about 180mph to prevent this.
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Collisions and CV's..............
Or to be more exact Collisions and fleets..............
We have all seen air craft "land" on Cv's and apparantly hover off to one side............
In fact I believe that when a fleet is manouvering we all see something quite different................
The locational data is not exact and I believe the fleet turn "program" is also sitting on our FE's
If the WP's call for a turn ........."here" and everyones FE executes the same program then (in theory) we should all see the same.............
Except when the wp's are being constantly updated during fleet evasives.........then the turn programs are being started out of synch due to various lags and the effect during constant changes is accumulative.
In the scenario Operation Iceberg we were going to feature Kamikazi strikes so we wanted a way to count the hits................
Quite simple we hover over the fleet in F3 and film the strikes...........what happened was these 163's smaked into the water all over the place some several hundred yards from this turning fleet.......all claiming to a man that they had rammed the deck ............................
:confused:
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OK here we go, One More Time.
If you refuse to see the logic in this then you are hopeless and will not believe any explanation regarding this subject. This is about a simple minded as I can get it.
The Message: {gameid} has collided with you
This message appears in your text buffer in WHITE text. This is because it is send to you FROM the other users FE the same way a PM is sent. It uses the same code that PMs use. This is the OTHER GUYS computer detecting a collision and informing you that is has done so. He takes damages you do not.
The Message: You have collided
This message appears in your text buffer in AMBER text. This is the same color text that setting a had position and turning on and off Combat Trim uses. This is YOUR computer informing you that it has detected a collision and will assign damage to your plane accordingly. You take damage the other guy does not. (unless you shot him).
Sorry, but Rocket Science this ain't!