Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Bombardy on May 09, 2006, 10:52:25 PM
-
I'm interested how the J2m variants (J2M3 or even the J2M5) might compare to other large radial aircraft in the MA if we ever get it.....let's take a look at a few specifications to compare
Power to weight ratio: (dry weight/max HP)
P47D - 3.9lbs per HP
J2M3 - 3.4lbs per HP
La7 - 3.1lbs per HP
All other things being equal, the J2M should be able to accelerate quite nicely, not quite as well as the La7, but should be better than the JUG
Wing Loading (empty weight/sq ft)
P47D - 33.3lbs/sqft
J2M3 - 28.97lbs/sqft
La7 - 30.86lbs/sqft
the J2M seems to get the nod here, a lower wing loading would lend itself to better handling and turn capability
Climb Performance
P47D - 3,120 ft/min
J2M3 - 3,838 ft/min
La7 - 3,608 ft/min
Well, now this is interesting, the J2M bests the la7 in climb, no real surprise there since the wingloading is lower with a very close power to weight ratio
Was is a bad plane? was it a good plane? here's some subjective information.......
In February of 1945, an American technical intelligence team discovered a single Raiden abandoned among the trees alongside the Dewey Boulevard on the outskirts of Manila. It was disassembled and transferred to Clark Field, where it was repaired by the Technical Air Intelligence Command (TAIC) and test flown. A senior test pilot attached to TAIC rated the Raiden as being the best Japanese fighter he had flown, offering a good performance, good stability, good stalling characteristics, and good takeoff and landing qualities. It had a steep climbing angle and a rapid climb rate. Handling and control were good, but the ailerons became rather heavy at speeds above 325 mph. Stalling characteristics were exceptional. Even though there was relatively little stall warning, the recovery from the stall was extremely rapid, with very little altitude being lost. There was no tendency to spin, the aircraft being exceptionally stable. The maneuvering flaps were rated as being very effective. On the negative side, the brakes and rudder brake action were poor, the ailerons were heavy which made the maneuverability fall off at high speeds, the mechanical reliability was poor, and the range was short.
(http://www.scaleworkshop.com/gallery/images/raidenkr_.jpg)
-
http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94319&highlight=raiden
-
HAHAHAHA!!! 5 made! 4 prototypes and 1 production unit! Never flown, never distributed!!! LMAO!!!
P.S. there's NO way in hell they got 2x20mm in that fuselage. The cowling and the engine/prop shaft take up all the room.
At MOST it's a 4x20mm plane.
Fly the N1k2. It's the same UFO. And we already have it in-game.
EDIT: Comparing it to the P47 and La7 is a joke. Rather, you ought to compare it to the zero, the hellcat, and (especially) the N1K2. I believe it would compare very closely to the N1K2 in all areas.
-
People seem to be confusing the A7M2 Reppu "Sam" with the J2M3 "Raiden "Jack". The Raiden definately saw service, though not in huge numbers whereas the Reppu was screwed by the IJN and Mitsubishi brass overruling Horikoshi's choice of powerplant and then switching back after the Homare proved to be inadequate just as Horikoshi said it would be.
The J2M3 entered service in 1943 as I recall. Maybe '44.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
HAHAHAHA!!! 5 made! 4 prototypes and 1 production unit! Never flown, never distributed!!! LMAO!!!
P.S. there's NO way in hell they got 2x20mm in that fuselage. The cowling and the engine/prop shaft take up all the room.
It would help if you at least knew what you are talking about. Right now, you seem to be in a wrong thread?
The first J2M1 prototype flew 20.03.1942, with 3 prototypes built.
155 J2M2 series production aircraft were built and distributed.
J2M3, J2M4, J2M5 and J2M6 were built and flown, with M3 and M5 in series production.
Did you just make up those numbers? That's not a way to contribute to a discussion, you know.
And yes, they did fit 2 x 20 mm cannons to the fuselage.
-
Originally posted by Karnak
People seem to be confusing the A7M2 Reppu "Sam" with the J2M3 "Raiden "Jack". The Raiden definately saw service, though not in huge numbers whereas the Reppu was screwed by the IJN and Mitsubishi brass overruling Horikoshi's choice of powerplant and then switching back after the Homare proved to be inadequate just as Horikoshi said it would be.
The J2M3 entered service in 1943 as I recall. Maybe '44.
Yeah, that was a very wierd shift. I had plans to sub the n1k2 for the A7M in the CAP event. If the Japanese would have won enough frames they would have had Ki-67s and N1Ks launching off carriers lol. It would have dovetailed nicely with the Stukas and 109s the Germans were using heh (though obviously later in the war).
I never did test the Ki-67 for CV though. We always had land bases for them.
As for the J2M3, I really wanted one of those for the CAP event, to give the IJN something a bit better for the midwar period. The J2M and the Ki-44 (even with an anemic gun package) would have been very welcome in that event. Though to be honest, what we needed most was a mid-war IJN strike plane with better survivability than the Val or Kate. Hmmm.
-Sik
-
From what I have read on the "JACK" - it was more of an Interceptor than a Fighter.
It had a very high climb rate, fairly fast but only average turn rate. Better armored than the A6M5 Zeke & KI-61 KAI IIRC. It would make a good Bomber Interceptor with the 4x 20mm cannons and do ok in a AH dogfight with a skilled pilot.
While it would be nice to have - the GEORGE & FRANK we already have are better planes.
! :aok
-
Originally posted by Jester
From what I have read on the "JACK" - it was more of an Interceptor than a Fighter.
It had a very high climb rate, fairly fast but only average turn rate. Better armored than the A6M5 Zeke & KI-61 KAI IIRC. It would make a good Bomber Interceptor with the 4x 20mm cannons and do ok in a AH dogfight with a skilled pilot.
While it would be nice to have - the GEORGE & FRANK we already have are better planes.
! :aok
That's how I see it shaking out as well. In the MA, Novelty would be the real reason to fly one. But in Events (where I lived) it would be nice to have something beefier than the Zeke for the mid-war. Right now all we have is the Ki-61, which while a fine fighter for the period is something of a bobsled when it comes to energy. The Jack would fill in a pretty major gap in the IJN planeset IMHO.
-Sik
-
Did I quote the wrong plane? Whatever :) Still, lol! only 5 made! (of that other plane)
-
Another case of the Japanese putting the emphasis on the wrong thing: Turning and climb rate.
With as many mistakes the U.S. made during WW2, its amazing that the focus for fighter planes was always on speed, range, durability and firepower.
-
which make me wonder Shrimp... does that Raiden stand any chance against the Hellcat or Corsair? just wondering. I wasnt even sure of any J2M facts until I read this thread! However, I hear that the Raiden's handles like a truck at low speed.. I might be talking about something else, but one thing is for sure - that Japanese planes became more unreliable near the end of the war, and could easily be beaten by their U.S. contemporaries.
Which makes me wonder (ha sorry if I'm being annoying asking frequent unrelated questions but you people seem so seasoned with knowledge of planes I may need to pry some off you): would something like a Hellcat, which has a speed of 66mph less than an F4U-4 be able to stand a chance against such a fast, quick- climbing/diving plane?
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Another case of the Japanese putting the emphasis on the wrong thing: Turning and climb rate.
With as many mistakes the U.S. made during WW2, its amazing that the focus for fighter planes was always on speed, range, durability and firepower.
Um, the emphasis on the J2M3 was climb and speed. So much so that many Japanese pilots really disliked it.
It was not designed as a long range escort or strike aircraft. It was designed as a short range interceptor like the Bf109 or Spitfire.
As to its handling, the only note I have seen said that in post war trials the American test pilot liked it a lot.
-
if you ever get to chino they have a very nice static display of this aircraft.
-
The J2M3s top speed was 380mph. This was at a time when nearly all of U.S. planes were doing over 400mph (with the exception of the F6F and P40).
-
The Japanese had fuel quaity issues. The fact that it did not go over 400mph in Japanese service does not mean the aircraft was not intended to be as fast as they could make it.
Read up a bit on it and the development behind it before making pronouncements about what the design goals of the aircraft were.
-
The design called for an aircraft capable of 373mph, landing at speeds not greater than 81mph, and not taking more than 985 ft to takeoff fully loaded. Different version of the aircraft (prototypes included) were flying from March 1942 right up to the end of the war.
The speed called for in the design is about the same as the P-40Es, and slower than that of P-38Fs.
So if on paper you say that you are building a high speed interceptor, but in reality you build a plane slower than its contemporaries, and one that becomes very sluggish at moderate speeds (320+), what have you really designed?
-
Once again, look to the realities the Japanese were working under. 373 was very fast for a Japanese fighter of that day. The wing loading on the J2M was very high by Japanese standards.
You cannot compare the Japanese situation to the American situation and expect them to be even.
If the high command had called for a 400+mph fighter, no Japanese firm could have delived it.
Even the Ki-84 seems to have never reached 400mph in Japanese service. When tested in the US it reached 420mph due to the fuel difference.
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
what have you really designed?
A Japanese High Speed interceptor.
-Sik
-
Raiden would be a nice addition.
Edit: Oops, dug this up but I didn't realize it wasn't in the "Wishlist" forum
-
Originally posted by Karnak
People seem to be confusing the A7M2 Reppu "Sam" with the J2M3 "Raiden "Jack". The Raiden definately saw service, though not in huge numbers whereas the Reppu was screwed by the IJN and Mitsubishi brass overruling Horikoshi's choice of powerplant and then switching back after the Homare proved to be inadequate just as Horikoshi said it would be.
The J2M3 entered service in 1943 as I recall. Maybe '44.
yup it was a late 1943 fighter and effective though suffering from reliabilty issues
-
Old thread, but I'll add that top speed in level flight isn't everything. The J2M was designed for high speed and could operate effectively at higher speeds, something that most Japanese fighters have a lot of trouble with. Using the high climb rate and then diving it would be a very nasty oponent, something that F6Fs would have a hell of a time diving away from, thereby removing the standard US tactic for escaping Japanese fighters.
-
Years ago, I used to chat with an old B-29 bombardier on a newsgroup. He said the fighter he most frequently encountered were J2M Jacks. I believe he said that while all Japanese planes had trouble intercepting the B-29s at high altitude, the Jack was the one that was most capable.
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Years ago, I used to chat with an old B-29 bombardier on a newsgroup. He said the fighter he most frequently encountered were J2M Jacks. I believe he said that while all Japanese planes had trouble intercepting the B-29s at high altitude, the Jack was the one that was most capable.
I recall reading that the J2M had been withdrawn from service at one point in 1944 as the IJN was going to standardize on the N1K as their land based fighter, but it was put back into production and service because it could actually combat the B-29s, something the N1K couldn't do.
-
J2M3, Ki-61s, ki-84s, and Ki-44s are deemed un-maneuverable by Japanese standards. But when these planes were tested by Americans they were amazed that Japanese designers were able to balance speed, maneuverability, firepower, and durability. Good for us and bad for them that they did not produce these planes in greater numbers to replace the A6Ms.
-
Originally posted by 1K3
J2M3, Ki-61s, ki-84s, and Ki-44s are deemed un-maneuverable by Japanese standards. But when these planes were tested by Americans they were amazed that Japanese designers were able to balance speed, maneuverability, firepower, and durability. Good for us and bad for them that they did not produce these planes in greater numbers to replace the A6Ms.
Really wouldn't have mattered. U.S planes were faster and performed better at altitude across the board. Given the tactics used by the U.S., the marginal performance improvement relative to the U.S. planes coupled with their lack of trained pilots would have resulted in the same brutal last 2 years for IJA pilots.
-
What Karnak said, J2M3 was built for speed and climb, as for 20mm in the fuselage, well, the inline engined Ki-61 has them, so its hardly that surprising.
It was a bomber interceptor, in AH, it would likely be something of a hanger queen, being that the N1K2 has a lower wing loading and also climbs fast. Both the Ki-84 and N1K2 are better vs fighters than a J2M3 Raiden.
From what I have read, many IJN pilots didnt like it, as it could not manuever as well with US escort fighters.
-
i wonder how the japanese would have done if they'd taught their kamikaze pilots to do the old reliable 4x20mm HO instead of bashing their plane into a boat
-
Originally posted by Debonair
i wonder how the japanese would have done if they'd taught their kamikaze pilots to do the old reliable 4x20mm HO instead of bashing their plane into a boat
Well, its kinda like a HO, without pulling the trigger.
-
judging by the looks, J2M3 must be the most aerodynamic radial-powered piston engine fighter that saw action.
-
It had a shaft between the prop and the engine to get that shape.
The problem is that shaft was very unreliable, what with vibration of the engine and of the prop, and the poor shaft caught between the two. I've heard it failed a high % of the time. Another case of Japanese WW2 aircraft not living up to potential because it broke before it got to the fight. In AH it would not see these problems, but still it wasn't perfect. I'm indifferent to this one. We have more pressing needs, but I don't entirely dislike it.
-
Originally posted by 1K3
judging by the looks, J2M3 must be the most aerodynamic radial-powered piston engine fighter that saw action.
Shame this didn't get developed fast enough.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/81/Republic_XP-72.jpg)
Think it would have been one hell of a plane.
Bronk
-
The J2M was designed as an interceptor, and the early models had a lot of problems. The early engines were unreliable, and the undercarriage was fragile and often got damaged by the high landing speed of the Jack. It also developed a bit of a reputation as an "ensign killer" due to the relatively high number of accidents with new pilots. It wasn't until the J2M5 that they really had the problems with the engine and the undercarriage ironed out.
The Jack has a higher ceiling and is a bit faster than the George, but has a much shorter range and is less maneuverable. It was put to work intercepting Bombers since so few Japanese aircraft could catch the B-29s, but that didn't mean that it was useless against fighters...
Quick quote from "Aces of the Rising Sun" -
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Akamatsu's fighting ability reached legendary status with his handling of the J2M Raiden fighter... In an astonishing display of aerobatics and raw courage, Akamatsu proved the the Raiden could break a Mustang when, on 19 April 1945, the 34 year old "Raiden Master" flew his Jack against P-51s of the 45 F.S. - fighting on his own terms. he forced his opponents down to low altitude and claimed two or three shot down.
On 29 May, near Yokohama, the 'old man' of the Atsugi Air Corps singlehandedly attacked 75 Mustangs in a Zero and shot down 2nd. Lt. Rufus Moore, again of the 45th F.S. Capt Todd Moore, who witnessed Akamatsu's attack said later "If he had been an American, he would have been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think of the Jack as the 109K4 of Japanese fighters - it might not be as manueverable as some, but that doesn't mean it can't kill you if it is handled right. Until recently, I would've said that it wouldn't get much use in AH, where all the battles are down low. Nowadays, I see such an increase in people staying up high and dropping down to cherry pick kills, I have to say I wouldn't mind seeing another high-altitude ride added to the planeset.
EagleDNY
$.02
-
Need to pinch in a lot of salt when the Japanese pilots comment a plane as being "not very maneuverable". I mean, those guys commented the A6M Zero as being relatively "not very maneuverable" - since many of them were used to the standards planes like the Ki-27.
My bet is if we ever see this "not very maneuverable" plane in AH, I'd bet it'd probably be more maneuverable than about 2/3rds of the planeset, with the other Japanese planes (barring the Ki-61) and Spits and Hurris and those sort as an exception.
I think the J2M would be a very welcome addition to the MA - giving the Japanese planes an interesting option of with a "Japanese style 109-ish hybrid" of a fighter. Not to mention it would also fill a bit of the very large gap in the Japanese plane set, of course.
-
OK its "not very maneuverable" as compared to most other Japanese AC.
But most Japanese AC are "not very maneuverable" at higher speeds.
Any idea how the J2M handled at higher speeds?
Bronk