Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Staga on August 15, 2001, 03:40:00 AM
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Easy: Starve 'em dead.
Quote from (United Nations) World Food Programme (http://www.wfp.org/index2.html)
WFP LAUNCHES EMERGENCY OPERATION TO HELP
PALESTINIANS PUSHED TO BRINK OF FOOD CRISIS
Rome – The UN World Food Programme today launched an emergency operation to assist 270,000 Palestinians no longer able to meet their food needs because of the Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
Over the next six months, WFP will require some US$ 11.5 million to provide 26,000 metric tons of food aid to the poorest and most needy Palestinians, in particular daily labourers who have lost their jobs as a direct consequence of the Israeli security restrictions.
“The Israeli blockade has had a serious impact on many poor Palestinians in Gaza Strip and the West Bank whose only source of income was casual labour inside Israel,” said Mushtaq Qureshi, WFP Representative in the Palestinian Territories.
Tight border controls between Israel and both the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have been in force since civil unrest spread across the occupied Palestinian Territories last October. The Isreaeli security restrictions, which include internal closures within the Palestinian areas, have severely hampered the movement of workers and goods, slowing down all economic activities. Thousands of Palestinians no longer have any job opportunities.
According to UN estimates, unemployment rates soared from about 11 per cent in mid 2000 to nearly 50 per cent in May 2001 while income from wages earned by Palestinian workers in Israel plummeted by a staggering 75 per cent. The total loss is estimated at over US$ 2.2 billion to date, equivalent to 40 per cent of the projected Gross Domestic Product of the Palestinian Territories for the current fiscal year.
“Many of the Palestinian casual labourers live from hand to mouth. Unemployment for a long time in such a crumbling economy would surely lead their families to destitution and hunger,” Qureshi said.
“Poor families have to make extremely difficult decisions,” warned Qureshi, “the more fortunate among them are still relying on their savings, while others have already started to reduce spending and sell assets. These families are likely to change food consumption patterns in a way that affects their nutritional health, particularly of women and children.”
Since December 2000, a WFP US$ 4 million emergency operation has provided food aid to the most vulnerable 250,000 Palestinians. This new operation would nearly triple the level of assistance .
Other UN agencies have been implementing small employment schemes with the assistance of the donor community targeting a few thousand unemployed workers to relieve the mounting pressure on the Palestinian poor. But all these schemes have had a limited impact as the majority of workers’ families remain dependent on relief assistance.
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Palestine Authority: How To Get Rid Of Israeli´'s:
Easy. Blw up their women and children, then incite mass hatred and get a war going featuring all the major Arabic powers vs Israel.
Heh, just saying; it ain't that easy :)
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What is important is understand which one is the reason and which one is the result.
If you're trying to get rid of problems by trying to correct results you have a endless task in your hand.
Every human who are capable to use his/hers brains should understand this.
People with work, full stomach and some entertaiment usually aren't interested to find troubles or put in danger their living standard.
IMHO of course. Feel free to think opposite :)
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Easy. Blw up their women and children, then incite mass hatred and get a war going featuring all the major Arabic powers vs Israel.
Hmmm... They tried this back in 1967 IIRC - Israel whooped their collective arses and grabbed some land into the bargain... Now they've decided that blowing up women and children is a safer option :(
But Staga does have a point about full stomachs and jobs...
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: -lynx- ]
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Originally posted by Staga:
What is important is understand which one is the reason and which one is the result.
If you're trying to get rid of problems by trying to correct results you have a endless task in your hand.
Every human who are capable to use his/hers brains should understand this.
People with work, full stomach and some entertaiment usually aren't interested to find troubles or put in danger their living standard.
IMHO of course. Feel free to think opposite :)
what other choice does Israel have? not knowing which idiot has a bomb strapped to his arse, you have to keep them all out.
"People with work, full stomach and some entertaiment usually aren't interested to find troubles or put in danger their living standard."
sometimes it seems they find their entertainment in fighting and hating...maybe a huge Quake net will keep them happy?
Do believe the entire region is set to explode giving the Arabs the excuse to jack up the price of oil forcing us into it..
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So Eagler you disagree on this one:
"If you're trying to get rid of problems by trying to correct results you have a endless task in your hand."
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"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
Quote from Eldridge Cleaver,
former "Black Panther" who became a republican in his later years.
And maybe a burglar and cocaine addict too.
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What is important is understand which one is the reason and which one is the result.
If you're trying to get rid of problems by trying to correct results you have a endless task in your hand.
Every human who are capable to use his/hers brains should understand this.
People with work, full stomach and some entertaiment usually aren't interested to find troubles or put in danger their living standard.
what you are saying about handling the cause instead of the symptom is usually good advice.
however this problem goes back along ways (4,000 years or more i think) to the time of abraham.
i'm not ussually a defeatist but i think it's time to realize that when the world is at an end and there is nothing but germs left on earth, in the midle-east the arab and jew germs will still be trying to kill each other.
maybe it's time for the rest of the world to step out and deal with the survivor when it's over.
not a very pleasant option but probly will have the same result as anything else we try.
Apathy
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Originally posted by Staga:
So Eagler you disagree on this one:
"If you're trying to get rid of problems by trying to correct results you have a endless task in your hand."
Just saying since the Palestine "military force" isn't in uniform and they look just like the Palestine brick layer, electrician, grocier, etc.. what else can Israel do to prevent the nutcase Palestines from blowing up the next store, bus, etc but keep them all out. Maybe the general population of Palestine will turn to their "leaders" and ask them to find another way to express themselves, one which will allow them to provide for their families while gaining the worlds sympathy & understanding for their cause...
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"According to UN estimates, unemployment rates soared from about 11 per cent in mid 2000 to nearly 50 per cent in May 2001 while income from wages earned by Palestinian workers in Israel plummeted by a staggering 75 per cent. The total loss is estimated at over US$ 2.2 billion to date, equivalent to 40 per cent of the projected Gross Domestic Product of the Palestinian Territories for the current fiscal year.
“Many of the Palestinian casual labourers live from hand to mouth. Unemployment for a long time in such a crumbling economy would surely lead their families to destitution and hunger,” Qureshi said."
what do they expect, they bomb the people that employ them and then complain when the employeer finds safer employees?? As stated above I think this is just a by product of a few (the bombers and their supporters)actions brought on the Palestine people by such actions. Sad, the entire thing is very sad.
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The answer sure as hell isn't for the US to continue pouring arms into the Israeli hands, they obviously don't deserve our support in this regard anymore.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy:
however this problem goes back along ways (4,000 years or more i think) to the time of abraham.
There are quite real today's factors in that story.
There are two people and each one has a group of radicals that act against teh interests of the rest of the people but have disproportionate influence on the rest of the population.
Among the israelis there is a small but extremely influential religious minority that presses for the settlements. Their influence is in their unity. With extremely fractured political landscape that Israel has, 20% is a necessary block of votes for any kind of government and any ruling party has to make a deal with them to form the government.
The majority of the population is too fractured to effectively oppose the extremists. Some of that majority do believe that peace with arabs is possible, etc.
Such expansionist behavior of radicals puts all of Israel at risk, but the logical reasons do not work on those religious people. They believe that God would not let them fail. They are not interested in a peace deal because while it is not settled, they can contunie encroaching into arab-populated territories.
On the arab side there are religious and other radicals among and beside palestinians that would not rest while Israel exists or at least would not allow the war to stop. Many would have nothing to do but kill each other or at least lose power if the case was settled - through pease or defeat of Israel. Just like it was when afganis von over russians or bolsheviks von their revolution, etc.
Most arab states do not grant citizenship to their fellow-arabs in palestinian refugee camps even thought they were born there and lived there for decades. That does not strike me as much support.
The life of palestinians on controlled territories is pretty miserable. Palestinians are treated as second sort by the bureaucracy. The bureucracy is not responcible to them in any way because they do not vote. In fact the ministers are appointed according the agreement of the parties, so they may be reflecting interest of the same religious minority, not the majority of israelis.
So palestinians have huge restrictions on what and where they can build, businesses they can engage in, water use, etc.
Their land may be confiscated ets.
Arabs cannot defeat Israel militarily because they have no power, they hate each other and the smarter of them realise that if Israel is ever defeated, they would start killing each other in more massive and much less civilised manner then Israelis are killing them. And they will lose all that money coming for the anti-Israel fight.
Israel cannot eradicate palestinians because it is a civilised and democratic state.
Israelis would never agree on a peace treaty that would allow palestinians to return to Israel - they would end up a minority overningt. They may yield some land but not all that arabs want.
The best solution would be for palestinians to sit quietly and so speed up the signing of peace treaties so they get their autonomy and get out from under Israelis hated administrative control. Of course Israeli's radicals would drag that process but it would advance.
Unfortunately for everybody, arab radicals cannot allow that to happen. So they stir up the population and commit the terror acts. Not against religious radicals and their settlements (that most israelis would be happy to be rid of) but specifically against the rest of the population. The places that are blown up are the last places where you would see a religious jew.
It kind of makes sence - they do not need to antagonize the religious radical settlers, so why waste perfectly good explosives.
Of course the israeli radicals are happy for any excuse to disrupt the talks and settlement process...
If the arabs are too quiet, they can always arrange some offencive ceremony or provocative demonstration.
Do I see a solution for that problem? No.
Do I see good way out? Sure. Just allow israeli and any palestinians to freely immigrate to US. We could always use 10-15 million good people here. Let their radicals fight it out without involving other people.
P.S. The moderate israelis are hostages to the religious right. They have no choice but to defend themselves or emigrate and emigration is practically impossible because no country is willing to take them.
If US stopped supporting Israel militarily, they would be weakening considerably over time. US would have no influence on them to hold them back like it does now. In fact US help is money for them to bleed while defending themselves but not attack.
The only reasonabe solution for them would be to smash palestinians right away while they still can and evict them outside the borders and build a wall around the Israel and a safety zone against artillery strikes - the so called "transfer" solution. There would be unimaginable bloodbath which jews would not dare to lose and arabs would not dare to win even if they could since Israel has nuclear weapons of last resort.
The US action now towards both jews and palestinians are the same as when they sent ship full of jews back to the germany to be killed in gas chambers. They are willing to spend some money as long both keep away and out of sight.
miko
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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As far as certain Israeli political groups are concerned, the problem goes back 4,000 years. But for most people, including the Palestinians, the problem goes back only to the beginning of the 20th century, when the World Zionist Congress decided to dispossess the Palestinians of their land through Jewish colonization.
Two interesting notes are:- The King-Crane Commission. This was an American commission sent by President W.Wilson in 1919 to the former Arab provinces of the Ottoman Empire to "ascertain the wishes of their inhabitants regarding the postwar settlement of their territories." The King-Crane report stated:
- 90% of Palestine's inhabitants were non-Jewish and did not want a Jewish state in Palestine.
- If they are given Palestine, "Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants."
- The King-Crane Commission said that a Jewish state in Palestine would violate the Palestinian Arabs' right to self-determination; they recommended that Zionists respect the wishes of Palestine's inhabitants and find another place to plant the Jewish state.
- After visiting Palestine for the first time, the famous Jewish writer, Asher Ginsberg, wrote in 1891: "We abroad are used to believing that Eretz Israel is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed, and that anyone who wishes to purchase land there may come and purchase as much as he desires. But in truth this is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains that are not fit to grow anything but fruit trees-and this only after hard labor and great expense of clearing and reclamation-only these are not cultivated."
He also said that the Zionists "treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds." He was so disgusted with Zionism that he said, "If this is the 'Messiah', then I do not wish to see his coming."[/list]
If the Palestinians have devolved to such hatred and barbarism, they only have the Israelis to thank, as well as those presiding nations that sanctioned the formation of the Jewish state in Palestine.
[ 08-15-2001: Message edited by: leonid ]
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Originally posted by leonid:
If the Palestinians have devolved to such hatred and barbarism, they only have the Israelis to thank, as well as those presiding nations that sanctioned the formation of the Jewish state in Palestine.
But majority of the population in Israel are born there or refugees from former Soviet Union who were not accepted by other countries. What's the point of blaming them for sins of the past centuries?
Could you name any nation now that does not leave on soil which they did not occupy at some point with the original population still surviving?
Greeks come to mind but I am sure they migrated to greece at some point and pushed someone else out. Probably exterminated them outright since I do not hear anyone else claming Greece as their historical land.
The problem we have is current with current people and history have nothing to do with the solution - even as modern as hundred years ago.
Russis and Checnia or Ugoslavia were in peace ten years ago. If you start dragging in history, where do you stop? Israel was jewish state 3000 years ago. You can always pick up an arbitrary point in time that would favor one side. Letting jews found Israel in palestine was a mistake on the world's part. I do not see jews having much choice then were to go, like some country willing to part with a chunk of it's territory to form a state for them.
If they had created a state in Africa, they would probably have had the same problem with local population.
I know of many Israelis who are fed up with their politics and stuff and are ready to leave if a civilised country were willing to accept them.
They would fight if forced to but give them a choice and you have so many combatants in a conflict.
miko
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thanks for publishing this staga - israel's sins don't get much airtime.
maybe if they did the veil of wordsmithing and spin would start to lift from the eyes of the public and they'd see the situation clearly.
you gotta love the internet, it is a great way to shine light on a subject to the masses without having to control a tv network!
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Originally posted by mrfish:
thanks for publishing this staga - israel's sins don't get much airtime.
maybe if they did the veil of wordsmithing and spin would start to lift from the eyes of the public and they'd see the situation clearly.
And you are a prime example of such wordsmithing, mrfish.
There is no argument about Israel's sins. I've just listed the real ones and the causes (not to confuse with justifications) for them in this same trend.
But your reaction to the starvation issue just shows how one-sided you are and blind to reason and common sence.
How about if I try to read the same news content in from a different perspective:
Because continuous 50-year long conflict escalated into almost a full-blown war over the last few weeks, Israel was unable to continue providing employment and supply to palestinians of West Bank and Gaza Strip as it did before.
Despite being at war and completely controlling outside borders of West Bank and Gaza Strip Israel allows international organisations to provide thousands of tons of supplies to their enemies.
Doesn't sound so evil now. Quite civilised and benevolent in fact.
Do you remember many cases when one side allowed the other one to be supplied during the war? When Germany was starving in 44, did allies allow any food convoys in through territories they controlled? Did german submarines abstain from torpedoing food transports on the way to Britain or let food into Warsaw getto during the uprising?
Picking on Israel for not feeding and employing palestinians while Israeli's tanks and helicopters are openly bombing palestinian territories is like blaming brits for inconsiderately depriving germans of sleep while they bombed them at night.
It's not like US is willing to house, feed and employ the same palestinians and we are not even at war with them. Same goes for european and even arab countries.
miko
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in a way the entire thing reminds me of some the african americans here in the states squeaking about their great great grandparents being slaves....
at some point you have to let go of the past and look towards the future. take a course of action which most benefits your generation and generations to come. let go of old hate...
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Originally posted by Eagler:
in a way the entire thing reminds me of some the african americans here in the states squeaking about their great great grandparents being slaves....
At that they are not squeaking about those who made them slaves and sold them. They also have no desire to go back to where they were forcefully removed from. And it is not possible and never will be to prove to them they are not discriminated against in any given case (short of using mind-reading machine on the supposed perpetrator).
Saw on the news recently how some think that they are suppressing the racial memory and need to relieve the experience "in order to start healing process". For that they display extremely graphical scenes of slavery, slave ships and abuse to children and adults who had as little knowlege and relation to slavery as any, say, russian guy (slavery abolished in 1861). After such vivid lesson of history of hate they probably say - "now you know how evil white people were, so you can go on and forgive them".
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d:
How about if I try to read the same news content in from a different perspective:
Because continuous 50-year long conflict escalated into almost a full-blown war over the last few weeks, Israel was unable to continue providing employment and supply to palestinians of West Bank and Gaza Strip as it did before.
and now let me spray a little truth on that.
it is ironic that you call me blind, yet you state it to be a 50 year conflict lol - pretty convenient to start the timeline there eh, miko! :)
it is a 50 year struggle against occupation of palestinian land by foreign zionists against their will.
in law there is a thing called the 'but-for test'. it's a really concept and very effective:
example:" 'but for' the chair being broken the man wouldn't have hit the floor and broke his back"
example: "'but for' the brakes being faulty the car wouldn't have crashed."
example: "'but for' the medicine being tainted, the man wouldn't have contracted a disease."
it is a simple way to establish liability(def:whose fault it is...) so here's another good example:
"but for" the zionist israelis occupying the palestinians land against their will, and with the support of huge foreign powers there would be no palestinian uprising.
would the palestinians have gone to other countries to hunt down jews and kill them? be real. the only problem is that they are on their land! there is nothig for themn to 'get over' - that idea is just plebian.
they have been resisting since day one and should resist if they are any men at all. i wouldn't stop resisting ever if someone stole my land in america and i can't blame them if they do. i wouldn't just 'get over it' and submit.
does that make sense? is that simple enough? if the israeli's hadn't invaded, they wouldn't be dealing with a resistance movement. they are reaping their bad karma.
and ps - you, having lived in israel, and being associated with the zionist movement, should state and reveal your bias before championing their cause as an 'objective' poster.
it is in no way similar to the 'african american' thing - i don't know where you dug that up, but 'apples and oranges' is about all the time i'll waste on that jab.
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But for religion...
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Looks like Israel already re-invented ghettoes.
I wonder if they take next step in that road ?
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Simple Hypocresy. Enough said.
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Dammit, Vulvan made a funny!
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Originally posted by mrfish:
and ps - you, having lived in israel, and being associated with the zionist movement, should state and reveal your bias before championing their cause as an 'objective' poster.
Careful, your own bias is showing ;)
Any time anyone trots out the "zionist movement" i have a pretty good idea of where they're coming from :(
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well what do you call the movement that pushed aside the palestinians? what is the new pc word - enlighten me
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Zionist movement? Good lord..where are the Swastika's? Get real... the Jews where pretty much a scattered culture. After the holcaust the US and Britian had a serious guilt trip about allowing that to happen thus they took what wasnt considered to be a nation and "gave" the land to them. The Isrealies took it an ran with the Holocaust fresh in thier heads. They have been assulted on all sides. They have been the focus of many attempted exterminations... now they have something called a home and I just dont see them walking away from it.
Oh as far as land is concerned...show me a nation where people didnt kick somebody else out of thier way to get that land...
xBAT
As far as Palastine is considered...why hasnt some Arab nation offered them a chunk of land... ?
xBAT
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Batdog do you own any land ?
If you do what would you think if I give your land to the gipsies?
Nazies were killing them too but I haven't seen anyone offering land to them but guess I could give them YOUR land.
Why didn't U.S of A or Brits give them something they did own, like Nebraska or Birmingham ?
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First and foremost the "land" that was given to the Isrealies wasnt settled. There where no cities...no government organization to speak of. I'm not saying what they did was right... driving the Indians here in the US wasnt RIGHT but it WAS done and the land isnt going to be GIVEN back. The Palastain people got screwed... it happens. They do have a chance to get land and a nation for themselves. There are those among them though that for thier own political agenda oppose this...
xbat
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Originally posted by batdog:
Zionist movement? Good lord..where are the Swastika's? Get real
sighhh......since you are the second winner to play the worn out, dog-eared nazi card at the use of the word 'zionist' (yawn...didn't see that coming :rolleyes: ), let me try to get you up to date on world history as a public service.
here is what a zionist is:
"According to the Zionist declarations, Zionism was indeed the return of the Western assimilated Jews to Judaism and through Zionism some kind of reunification between Western and Eastern Jews took place after centuries of separation."
that reunification is taking place in israel and has been for over 100 years, the largest wave of resettlement being just after wwii - it was the actual name of the actual movement designed to get actual jews back to the 'homeland' to form a common state in israel after the diaspora.
here is what those nasty anti-semitic nazis at the jewish virtual library say about <cue dramatc music here> zionismmmmmmmmmmmm......
"Zionism, the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel, advocated, from its inception, tangible as well as spiritual aims. Jews of all persuasions, left and right, religious and secular, joined to form the Zionist movement and worked together toward these goals. Disagreements led to rifts, but ultimately, the common goal of a Jewish state in its ancient homeland was attained."
wow! how hateful! those nazi grumble grumble...oh wait - those guys are jews huh????
YOU - are trying to paint me as this guy:
" the zionist jews and the aliens and freemasons are trying to take over by controling our water supply dag nabbit!"
- the above referenced goof thinks the jews are trying to set up a homeland in america and thus his inappropriate use of zionist.
<clears throat.....>I AM USING ZIONIST IN REFERENCE TO JEWS FORMING A HOMELAND IN ISRAEL!!!!!
my goodness people.....here, read a little before you cast anymore unnecessary slings:
http://www.2cc.com/azmchi/ (http://www.2cc.com/azmchi/)
http://www.iea.org.il/blueprint/page030.htm (http://www.iea.org.il/blueprint/page030.htm)
http://codoh.com/zionweb/ziondark/zionsym2.html (http://codoh.com/zionweb/ziondark/zionsym2.html)
http://hermes.spaceports.com/~mrcash/1896-1916%20-%20Zionist%20movement.htm (http://hermes.spaceports.com/~mrcash/1896-1916%20-%20Zionist%20movement.htm)
http://www.jazo.org.il/wlzm/default.htm (http://www.jazo.org.il/wlzm/default.htm)
these are links from both pro and anti- and only barely scratch the surface of the various interpretations of zionist belief. the spectrum of beliefs is actually quite extreme within the zionist movement. hopefully it'll give you a hint of a clue at least instead of the sad place you are now.
fyi - when used in the context of the middle east it's pretty darn specific - k?
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"As far as Palastine[sic] is considered...why hasnt some Arab nation offered them a chunk of land... ? "
"Oh as far as land is concerned...show me a nation where people didnt kick somebody else out of thier way to get that land..."
- wow! lol...what can i say about those gems. if someone needs an argument to see why that is absurd logic then......errrr may i suggest night school?
;)
[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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Okay..perhaps my "label" on you was incorrect. I'll stand by the other statement. The FACT is simple... the jewish people have that land. They are THERE...they are a government that is accepted by the majority of the world. You can squeak, whine, moan or whatever about how they "stole" the land but it wont mean squat. They are NOT going to move, or leave.
The people of Palastine would be best served by going to the table and working a deal. They would be best served not allowing radicals to dictate a future that could hold a nation for them. GET THE DAMN LAND... then go from there. They will at least have something to fall back on... and it will be alot damn better than what they have now..ie NOTHING.
As far as my logic concerning how nations are formed on the bones of other cultures... get real. I'm sorry but history is full of this. The analogy is correct... a nomadic, unorganised people where driven from thier claimed land vie a more powerful force.
xBAT
xBAT
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Then why did some ppl from Iraq had to leave with such a hurry from Kuwait few years ago?
BTW Israel is still officially occupieing some areas over there.
Your country is supporting a country which is occupieing areas belonging to another country.
Just like when Germany took sudet-areas in the eve of WW2.
How does that make you feel ?
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The Persian gulf war isnt a good way to throw my argument back at me. Kuwait is an established nation w/a government recognised around the world. The Palastine people where no such thing.
xBAT
[ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: batdog ]
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Heh I see you didn't gave answer to that last sentence of my earlier post so I presume you don't like that ?
Which is good IMO :)
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BTW those Palestinian people should have a right to live in that land, vote, live in their houses without fear that Israel caterpillars are knokcing their door in 5am.
Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.
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gotta agree with xbat, whatever happened in the past is well .. er the past..
law of nature - the strong survive while the weak er better get along with the strong :)
It's in Palestine's best interest to get civilized with their negotiations before Israel loses it's patience, world opinion be damn. Nice and quiet since the tanks have rolled in eh?
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Stega... I do agree that the average Palastinian should be allowed to exist in freedom and prosperity. The problem is they are allowing a very radical few to use them and bleed them for thier own agenda. They are caught in the middle of a bloodfest :(
They have one option really...sit down and negiotate in good faith before the entire world. This will intern give them world support. The roits during the peak of negotions and terrorist strikes hardly inspire world confidence or faith that they wish for a peaceful settlement. They get that land... they have something.
xBAT
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So Palestinians should just wait and hope the best?
That did not work in WW2 when German army occupied most of Europe.
Same toejam is happening, only in smaller size.
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Originally posted by Eagler:
gotta agree with xbat, whatever happened in the past is well .. er the past..
law of nature - the strong survive while the weak er better get along with the strong :)
so why did we bother liberating europe? why did we intervene in kosovo? why did we intervene in rwanda and somalia? macedonia? vietnam? korea?....etc.
don't worry eagler, the news and the media are working on just the right spin and proper phrasing and will give you the zinger answers to those questions some day, in the mean time keep ignoring the actions of the israelis and don't let that wool get yer eyes itchy. ;)
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Originally posted by mrfish:
so why did we bother liberating europe?
if he'd stopped at Europe we probably wouldn't have, his mistake was messin with England and letting the japs mess with us...
why did we intervene in kosovo?
to divert attention away from slick willie's wille
why did we intervene in rwanda and somalia?
dunno - we should have stayed out, has anything changed there?
macedonia?
dunno
vietnam?
dunno, wish we hadn't
korea?
dunno, to protect our interest in S.Korea? We were "red" paraniod?
....etc.
dunno :)
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Eagler, you scare the toejam outta me.
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hehe, you gotta love eagler hang - he always looks to do the right thing - even if he's actually dead wrong ;)
<S>
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Stega... I do agree that the average Palastinian should be allowed to exist in freedom and prosperity. The problem is they are allowing a very radical few to use them and bleed them for thier own agenda. They are caught in the middle of a bloodfest
They have one option really...sit down and negiotate in good faith before the entire world. This will intern give them world support. The roits during the peak of negotions and terrorist strikes hardly inspire world confidence or faith that they wish for a peaceful settlement. They get that land... they have something.
xBAT
I agree, xBAT, that Israel is here to stay even though I support the position articulated by MrFish on this thread. Life is not fair, what happened to the Palestinians is not fair, but Israel is here to stay. And I'm not going to give my condo property back to the Native Americans at this late date, though I don't mind that they can finally get some financial payback through legal gambling.
However, the Israelis have never shown a willingness to achieve peace on anybody's terms but their own. From Chaim Weizmann and Ze’ev Jabotinsky to David Ben-Gurion, the Palestinians have always been regarded as an inconvenient afterthought. No real malice towards them, just a firm understanding that the state of Israel would be a Jewish state and that the Palestinians would have to take a secondary role under Israeli terms. "The Iron Wall" by Avi Shlaim covers how the Israeli approach to the Palestinians has always centered on massive military power and “take it or leave it terms.”
You talk about Palestinian radicals? How about Ariel Sharon, a true Zionist, and he would be the first to admit it. And here’s a more sobering look at the radicalism that ultimately brought us Mr. Sharon.
One Year After Assination, Divided Israel Remembers Rabin
By Marjorie Miller
Los Angeles Times
JERUSALEM
A year after the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, an ever-divided Israel flocked to his graveside, the site of his murder and school auditoriums Thursday, trying to resume a truncated soul-searching over the meaning of the peacemaker's violent death.
The memorials to Rabin - on the anniversary of his death according to the Jewish calendar - were sad, if somewhat ritualized in a country that has lived from crisis to tragedy for almost half a century.
Students donned the white shirts they wear on Israel's Holocaust memorial day and radio stations played a Hebrew translation of Walt Whitman's "O Captain! My Captain!" written after the assassination of President Lincoln.
Parliament held a special session in memory of the Nobel laureate prime minister gunned down Nov. 4 by a Jewish law student opposed to his policy of trading land for peace with Israel's Arab neighbors. Throughout the country, hundreds of thousands of candles were lit for the slain Rabin.
Yet, the mourning showed once again that the unity that Israelis had hoped would emerge from their shared trauma is as illusive as ever. The only point of agreement between left-wing and right-wing, religious and secular seemed to be that the divisions among Israelis are at least as deep as they were before the assassination.
"Each side feels he knows the truth," Rabbi David Hartman of the Shalom Hartman Institute said in an interview. "The rhetoric is uncompromising. That hasn't changed. But then nothing changes after (huge) events. God gave us the Ten Commandments and people turned around to worship the Golden Calf."
During the state memorial at Mount Herzl cemetery, Leah Rabin stared coldly ahead as right-wing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu laid a wreath on the grave. She is unforgiving, believing that Netanyahu's harsh speech contributed to a climate of violence that led to her husband's slaying .
Netanyahu's government, in turn, refused a family and Labor Party request to make the anniversary an official day of mourning. Two leftist members of parliament walked out on the prime minister's speech appealing for national unity.
"The murder of Yitzhak Rabin must remind us of a basic truth: peace begins at home," Netanyahu said. "The choice before us today is to seal the rift and unite or widen the division and disintegrate."
But Israelis do not even agree on the definition of "unity." When left-leaning and secular Israelis speak of it, they mean pulling together the people and safeguarding the state of Israel. They, like Rabin, believe in trading captured land for peace.
When religious and right-wing Israelis plaster bumper stickers on their cars calling for the "Unity of Israel," they mean the people must unite around Jewish land in Erez Israel - Greater Israel. It is a call to hang on to the city of Hebron, which is to be given over to Palestinian control, and to the rest of the West Bank land that Israel captured from Jordan in 1967.
Thus, while most Israelis feel that the assassination of the prime minister of the Jewish state by a religious Jew was a terrible thing, not all Israelis have experienced Rabin's death as a loss.
Most of the country expressed outrage at Yigal Amir, Rabin's killer who was tried and jailed for life. Many called for a national commitment to nonviolence. There were efforts to bridge the chasms between religious and secular, left and right.
But the lesson seems not to have been absorbed by all.
On Tuesday, a religious Jew in a skullcap threw hot tea in the face of Yael Dayan, a left-wing member of parliament, during her working visit to Hebron. According to Nomi Hazan, another member of parliament with her, the attacker called the women "traitors" and "murderers," as Rabin's opponents had before he was killed.
Last month, an unidentified assailant threw a Molotov cocktail at the home of Yigal Amir's parents in Ramat Gan. No one was hurt, but the house was damaged.
While some girls in Kiryat Gat formed a Yigal Amir fan club, Supreme Court president Aharon Barak was assigned security guards after he came under attack in the ultra-Orthodox press for his rulings.
Security forces reportedly have received a growing number of threats against political leaders from Dayan to Netanyahu, who is planning to redeploy Israeli troops from Hebron under Rabin's accord.
Most who spent Thursday in assemblies discussing the value of human life, tolerance in public debate and preservation of democracy, felt there had been little improvement in these area.
When all is said and done, Israel has few real options as I see it:
1. Force the Palestinians to take whatever Israel offers on Israel’s terms as has been the status quo since its founding (doesn’t seem like the Palestinians are in the mood, or ever will be).
2. Eradicate the Palestinians totally via ethnic cleansing (don’t think the Israeli’s will ever get broad enough support for that, though the statements of some radical right wingers indicate it’s not an unpleasant thought).
3. Negotiate a peaceful settlement that allows a Palestinian homeland on terms not humiliating to them, perhaps even with a neutral Jerusalem (Israelis have to give up some territorial and religious ambitions though).
I think that if there is to be peace in the region, the Israelis will have to start appreciating exactly how much they have accomplished by establishing a state in the first place, and start looking for a solution that will allow peace through a real and fair compromise. Of course, this assumes that it is already not impossible. I firmly believe that the broad Arab leadership, including Palestinian, accept that Israel is here to stay and see the ultimate possibility of peaceful coexistence. However, popular opinion may never forget or forgive. People talk about just letting bygones be bygones and get on with life... what if a faction took away your house, kicked you out in the street and killed your sister? How soon would you set aside the hate? How quick would you be willing to settle for a wood shack on the outskirts of town and feel good about the whole thing?
My main interest in the subject is that it affects me both personally, and as an American citizen. My taxes support this state of affairs, and likely prolong the hostility. Since war is a resource draining process, the more aid that is given the easier it is for a country’s economy to maintain a low-grade conflict until the other side gives in. Further, I think the aid money would be better spent at home, in America.
I have long seen the “special friendship” between the United States and Israel as a one-sided affair. Israel was our cold-war bastion in the region, but why was that? Why were all the Arab countries in the Communist Block when none of them had a Communist government? Why are the Arabs in the Middle East so willing to shout “Death to America” when they generally like individual Americans and American culture (I know, an oxymoron)? Probably because of our special friendship.
It really is too bad. A peaceful Israel that coexists with the Palestinians and its Arab neighbors would really have a lot of potential. As the violence drags on, this possibility becomes more remote.
Charon
[ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]
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Actually Israel is nothing more than a paranoid Apartheid-country, breaking substantial human rights day by day.
So there will be no peace in that region - only revenge for revenge for revenge and more and more hate.
And so the Israelis will continue their killing of palastinian children and the palestinian suicide-commandos will do the same with jewish children.
I am only sorry for the mother who lose her child - no matter if it is an jewish or an arab one.
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Originally posted by Peer:
Actually Israel is nothing more than a paranoid Apartheid-country, breaking substantial human rights day by day.
Well, actually its a little more complicated than that. Israel has still a substantial moderate community that is willing to compromise for peace. The mood has changed after the start of the al-aksah intifadah (triggered by Sharon, then a secretary of state) and everybody in israel has moved a little bit to the extremist side. When the peace process will really commence again all those people will support that process, regardless of their present attitude.
As almost always there are two sides guilty, let's hope that someone listens to Peres, the only sensible man involved. Now when everybody is talking about military action he still files workable peace proposals. If the Israeli's had some vision they would have elected him instead.
Thud out
[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: Thud ]
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Originally posted by mrfish:
it is ironic that you call me blind, yet you state it to be a 50 year conflict lol - pretty convenient to start the timeline there eh, miko!.
The only thing I said in my post is that the State of Israel exists for about 50 years and has been in the state of war with palestinians ever since - fair or not is not the point here.
According to the news report it allows food suppies to be brought to it's enemies - that is a very unusual in a world history of warfare, may be even unique.
would the palestinians have gone to other countries to hunt down jews and kill them? be real.
That is kind of counter-productive. Most of jews outside of Israel are actively anti-zionist. They think that creating Israel was unnecessary and artificial act and with lessons learned from history jews in civilised countries are no longer persecuted or in danger of another Holocaust.
That opposed to Zionists who think that only in their own state would jews be safe from extermination/persecution.
So attacking jews who are outside Israel and driving them into the arms of Zionists would be very stupid on palestinian part if liberation of Palestine from Jews was their goal.
It sounds that jews outside Israel is exactly what palestinians would want them and they should encourage, not terrorise those people.
and ps - you, having lived in israel, and being associated with the zionist movement, should state and reveal your bias before championing their cause as an 'objective' poster.
Where did you get that? I did spent total of three weeks there on two occasions. That hardly qualifies as "having lived" there.
As I've stated before, I am not a supporter of Israel as Jewish state. I can name you countless reasons why jews should not have created their own state - starting with the fact that Ashkenasi jews being much smarter then average people would have to waste their potential on menial jobs or bring in foreigners anyway to fill those jobs - defeating the idea of mono-national state.
Also the permanent state of war necessitates strong government involvement in all aspects of life which along with the traditions of the founders (those who were not religious fundamentalists were socialists - I dislike them both) makes Israel a socialist state.
I would rather have jews (and any other nation) living in another state as a minority then in a national but religious or socialist state.
If you have read my previous posts, you would have notiiced that I argued for letting them all (jews, palestinians whoever) to US and letting the rest kill each other - like victorious afganis are doing now.
According to your own standards I would be a very poor zionist.
I am not religious, so I would never support a cause that would try to return the most educated and emansipated nation back to religion.
Second, I am famous here for my race-realted views (I am a firm believer in scientific evidence of racial inequality). Mixing ashkenasi jews (hardly distinguishable from europeans but for IQ one standard deviation above average and few genetic markers) with "eastern" sephardic jews, black african "jews" and other races/nations labeled as "jews" sounds silly to me.
Jews are very close to palestinians genetically - much closer then to many people who are considered jews in Israel.
BTW, there are quite real racial tensions in Israel. Ashkenasi-derived secular jews dislike religious sephardic jews, hate religious eastern-european descended jews and they all commonly despise uncivilised algerian jews. As for black african "jews", they are considered stone age people there.
The only thing uniting them is war against palestinians. Otherwise there is a good chance they would have more internal troubles.
For the last 3000 years jewish national identity was of people living in hostile conditions, prospering through adversity and always ending among the elite because of their cultural and educational traditions.
Enticing them to one state and making them into soldiers and farmers is contrary to common sense.
miko
[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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double post
[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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Well, argue all you want folks (ad nauseum).
Doesn't matter. There will be no peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes. Ain't gonna happen.
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The terror-regime of the German Democratic Republic falled in my lifetime and Germany became reunited.
The terror-regime of the Soviet Union falled in my lifetime.
The terror-regime of the Apartheid-system of South-Africa falled in my lifetime.
So why shouldn´t also the terror-regime of Isreal fall during my lifetime?
;)
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I am certainly not an expert on this sort of thing, but it seems that the Israeli citizens are in a constant fear that some goof ball is going to blow them up. They can't go to anywhere without fear. So! I say, the palestinians are waging war...give it to them! Why popsiclefoot around???? Blow the bastards to hell and back...and if their arab buddies want some...give it to them ! ! !
How long are the decent people of this world going to be held hostage by a bunch of extremists who have no value for human life???
They want a war...GIVE IT TO THEM! ! ! then maybe when it is over, we can have some peace in the middle east.
screw those rag headed bastiches ! ! !
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Originally posted by Peer:
The terror-regime of the German Democratic Republic falled in my lifetime...
The terror-regime of the Soviet Union falled in my lifetime...
The terror-regime of the Apartheid-system of South-Africa falled in my lifetime...
So why shouldn´t also the terror-regime of Isreal fall during my lifetime?
;)
Because in the the first three cases the authoritarian regime oppressed its own citizens in with no threat from outside.
In case of Israel, the regime in no way opresses the citisens inside the state. Quite opposite, the constant and real external threat is keeping the multifaceted society united as no other country.
Israeli citizens have no reason to overthrow their regime right now, but whenever they wish to do so, they conduct elections.
As for outside threat, combined arab world cannot currenly defeat them through conventional military means even if they put aside their mutual hatreds (remember same palestinians participating and supporting mr. Hussein in his invasion of kuwaitis?) and few would consider exchanging nuclear strikes with Israel on behalf of palestinians.
Also, Israeli economy currently develops faster then other countries in the region, so they are getting stronger, not weaker relative to their surroundings.
If they pull it off for another fifty years, the surrounding arab countries may run out of oil and go back to the status of third-rank countries they had before WWII. That may happen even sooner if Israelis come up with good way to use solar energy. I wonder if they already have done so and kept it under wraps due to a secret agreement with arabs or as a threat for the future.
Some say that US can stop supporting Israel economically and militarily (arms sales), but that is highly unlikely - Israel can definitely live without US money. As for military hardware, China, Russia and few other countries would only be happy to trade with Israel in exchange for their technology wich would inconvenience US much more in the long run.
Time will tell, but Israel seems pretty stable to me for the time being.
miko
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Heh first I thought this "Jack" was serious but then I remembered where he too his nickname :D
"Darling! Light of my life! I'm not gonna hurt you. You didn't let me finish my sentence. I said, I'm not gonna hurt ya. I'm just gonna bash your brains in. I'm gonna bash 'em right the diddly in!"
"Do you have the slightest idea what a moral and ethical responsibility means?"
And my personal favourite:
"Here's Johnny!"
Nice troll anyway.
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Originally posted by Jack_Torrance:
I am certainly not an expert on this sort of thing, but it seems that the Israeli citizens are in a constant fear that some goof ball is going to blow them up. They can't go to anywhere without fear.
That not entirely true. Even with drastic drop in crime over the last decade (due to effects of legalising abortion in 1973 and other minor factors), you are statisticaly safer from violence in Israel then in New York City. Their driving habits is another story...
They want a war...GIVE IT TO THEM! ! ! then maybe when it is over, we can have some peace in the middle east.
Having an invasion every 15-20 years would be much preferable to israeli military, but agreements with US keep Israel from doing just that in exchange for US good will and cooperation.
miko
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Miko countries like Israel will fall, sooner or later.
Longer it take the bigger boom they make.
(I didn't knew I'm a poet...)
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miko2d your arrogance is a lot like israel's.
if you really want what's best for your people tell them a train's coming.
or better yet don't, and let them keep admiring themselves in the mirror and believing that superiority nonsense you preach and find out the hard way when uncle sam lets em fight their own battles some day.
go palestine!
[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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Originally posted by mrfish:
miko2d your arrogance is a lot like israel's.
if you really want what's best for your people tell them a train's coming.
They know it very well. There is practically no chance that someone would owerpower their military, but there is a good posibility that sooner or later someone will start a nuke exchange. The problem is they do not have anyplace to go. Do you know of one? They have their backs to the wall - as simple as that.
You can argue that UN should not have given them that territory but it did. Jews coming there after WWII did not have any choice where to go and knew nothing about what expected them and who else lived there.
Of 1 million russian jews that went to Israel over the 90s, 95% would rather have came to US if it let them.
Same goes for palestinians. Name an arab country that offered citizenship to resident palestinians living in refugee camps for decades or born there. Jordan did that when it signed peace with Israel, IIRC. Any others?
As for the military aid, according to CIA factbook, Israel received $1.1 bil in 1999 with GDB $105 bil the same year. If US cuts Israel off, it will lose that one billion, but it will be able to buy weapons and stuff much cheaper from Russia or China, so it may end up with a profit.
The quality will not be the same, but how much technology do they need to fight arabs? They only use airstrikes (completely pointless, IMO) because US asks them not to invade. They would be much more efficient with tanks and rifles and they produce those themselves.
miko
[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
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Fact is that Israel will not win with its actual politic.
Maybe they could hold the power with their brutal terror for 20 or 40 years - but finally this regime will be wiped out like the racistic-regime of South-Africa.
All the military power of the Israeli Army cant avoid this. So I will wait - as I said before: I saw other terror regimes like the Israeli one falling during my lifetime - and lets hope that his will be one of the next.