Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mr Big on May 12, 2006, 10:29:02 PM
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http://apnews.excite.com/article/20060513/D8HIKOU00.html
............................. ....snip...........
President Bush, trying to build momentum for an overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, is considering plans to shore up the Mexican border with National Guard troops paid for by the federal government, according to senior administration officials.
One defense official said military leaders believe the number of troops required could range from 3,500 to 10,000, depending on the final plan. Another administration official cautioned that the 10,000 figure was too high.
The officials insisted on anonymity since no decision has been announced.
............................. ..snip.....................
WOW!
Look at all the money that would need to be spent to have up to 10k troops patroling our borders! It's too much money and will NEVER work, just like it doesn't work in the Koreas.
:rolleyes:
This idea is an outrage.
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We would have to heavily mine the border to have a parallel with the Koreas...;)
Guardsmen need to have a weekend a month and two weeks a year in uniform. This is collective obligation is probably largely used up in Iraq, but those who do their two weeks stateside, why not practice in the desert southwest?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
We would have to heavily mine the border to have a parallel with the Koreas...;)
I don't see any reason why we should'nt secure our border in the same manner ;)
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Dont forget the guard towers with sniper rifles
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It'll be a great thing... right up until the moment when some overzealous guardsman shoots a kid.
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Originally posted by Sandman
It'll be a great thing... right up until the moment when some overzealous guardsman shoots a kid.
Chit happens. Thus is life.
Our nation's border security is more important than one single life.
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Right. :noid
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Sandy, securing our border is a good thing.
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It's also impossible.
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Whenever the right thing is impossible, the best strategy is to give up. I get it.
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Hmmm... last I checked, the U.S. Border Patrol wasn't giving up. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sandman
Hmmm... last I checked, the U.S. Border Patrol wasn't giving up. :rolleyes:
:no but politically they are told not to do their job (http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005175.htm)
This serves two goals for Bush
1. It will help win over his base who have lambasted him for not doing enough in the border security dept. (THIS IS ASIDE FROM THE IMIGRATION ISSUE)
2. It will help shore up our borders wich have been extremely pourous even since 9/11.
To me this is a good move, I don't see how anyone can make a sane logical defense that in recent years America does not need to secure it's borders. If not why don't we just send islamo fascists invite cards to the southwest and hope they enter our borders with good intentions. :rolleyes
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Ah... the 911 card at last.
IIRC, all of the hijackers involved with 911 entered this country legally.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Ah... the 911 card at last.
IIRC, all of the hijackers involved with 911 entered this country legally.
So therefore all illegal entries are safe and only legal entry should be banned.:confused:
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Originally posted by Sandman
Ah... the 911 card at last.
IIRC, all of the hijackers involved with 911 entered this country legally.
Legal to the lefties maybe... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5594385)
But the hijackers had liberally used document fraud prior to that date, some to ease entrance into the United States, others to move around once they were here and to obtain drivers' licenses they needed to board the airplanes.
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Ah... the 911 card at last.
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that darned 9/11 card. its almost like rove planned the attacks just to use that stupid card on worthless stuff :cry
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Legal to the lefties maybe... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5594385)
According to that same commission, their lies were easily detectable. You can nit-pick all you want, but they came right through the front door.
The failures here have little to do with border security against Mexico.
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Originally posted by Sandman
they came right through the front door.
What part of that do you not understand? They used fraudulant documents to help ease their entry into the US. Are you saying we should NOT tighten our borders? WHAT exactly do you think we should do?
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The very concept of America as "The Land of the Free" is altered by securing our borders with armed troops. The way we have been doing things is flawed, without a doubt, and needs help. But to go this far is overreacting and actually moves us toward what the Terrorists are trying to achieve. Destruction of our way of life. Destruction of our sense of Freedom and Liberty. Willingness to give up more of such to feel safe.
As the famous quote from Reagan says:
"The nine scariest words in the English language are 'I'm from the Government and I'm here to help'."
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It's about the economy stupid.
It's a ploy to expand the government and get more money for the Border Patrol.
"Don't want to militarize the border? Well then give us the $$$ for the Border Patrol and ancillary organizations."
Supply interdiction is a big economy, be it drugs or illegal labor. And as long as nobody addresses the source of the problem the tax dollars will keep flowing and the agencies will keep growing.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The very concept of America as "The Land of the Free" is altered by securing our borders with armed troops. The way we have been doing things is flawed, without a doubt, and needs help. But to go this far is overreacting and actually moves us toward what the Terrorists are trying to achieve. Destruction of our way of life. Destruction of our sense of Freedom and Liberty. Willingness to give up more of such to feel safe.
As the famous quote from Reagan says:
"The nine scariest words in the English language are 'I'm from the Government and I'm here to help'."
explane how securing our borders would destroy my way of life,i think it would preserve my way of life.
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Originally posted by Sandman
It'll be a great thing... right up until the moment when some overzealous guardsman shoots a kid.
why would it be a kid that is shot? adults are much bigger targets, the guard might even shoot one of the "guides" that bring the illegals over. is that a bad thing?
you always look for the worst.
PS, i didn't know the guard was allowed to carry loaded guns.:)
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Originally posted by Sandman
Ah... the 911 card at last.
IIRC, all of the hijackers involved with 911 entered this country legally.
ahhh the "we were only attacked in THIS specific fasion so we only defend agaisnt that " card ;)
Sorry sir but saying we don't need to secure our borders against potential terrorist because the 911 hijackers were here legally is insanly stupid.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
What part of that do you not understand? They used fraudulant documents to help ease their entry into the US. Are you saying we should NOT tighten our borders? WHAT exactly do you think we should do?
What part of "easily detectable" did you not understand?
Are we going to have National Guard patrolling the northern borders as well?
..and what about the 95% of cargo ships that come in uninspected?
Tighten away, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that our borders will ever be secure.
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Originally posted by john9001
you always look for the worst.
As a matter of fact, I do.
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Originally posted by Suave
It's about the economy stupid.
Winner!
Always follow the money.
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Originally posted by Sandman
What part of "easily detectable" did you not understand?
Are we going to have National Guard patrolling the northern borders as well?
..and what about the 95% of cargo ships that come in uninspected?
Tighten away, but don't fool yourselves into thinking that our borders will ever be secure.
So here's me: This is a great start
You: We weren't attacked that way on 9/11
Me: It's still a great start
you: Our northern border and cargo shipping still isn't secure
Me: It's still a great start
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nothing says "secured" like a good militarized border.
I don't see any reason why we should not guard our borders with troops and whatever else will help do the job. I guess some people would just rather do nothing.
It's not impossible to GREATLY reduce the amount of illegal, dishonest, desease- carrying scumbags ( see how I'm being like Lazs? isn't it cute?) sneaking across our borders.
We can go to the moon, but sealing our borders is impossible? If we spent a few billion, we could easily get our borders pretty damn tight. Nothing is perfect, but I'd bet we could reduce the flood of illegals by over 90% if we wanted to.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
So here's me: This is a great start
You: We weren't attacked that way on 9/11
Me: It's still a great start
you: Our northern border and cargo shipping still isn't secure
Me: It's still a great start
I have my doubts... but you already know that.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
nothing says "secured" like a good militarized border.
Nothing says "Maginot Line" quite like a fence or militarized border between here and Mexico. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
Nothing says "Maginot Line" quite like a fence or militarized border between here and Mexico. ;)
I'm not talking about building a nice fort for the Frenchies to eat cheese and relax in, while the enemy just goes around them. ;)
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so sandie.... if you can only slow the tide of illegals by say..... 80% then it is a total waste of time?
and... are you saying that the border patrol has everything it needs and is doing the best job that is possible?
your agenda is starting to show to even the dimmest.
Nope... now all we need to do is arrest the employers and.... the problem all but goes away...
lazs
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At last... the real point behind this emerges. Illegal immigrants.
:aok
Here's my "agenda". I wonder how effective the Border Patrol could be if they had just a fraction of the money spent in Iraq.
As for the arrest of employers. Good luck with that. In order to convict, the state must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the employers knowingly hired illegal aliens.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... go ahead and "secure the borders" whatever that means.... seems it means.... build 12' walls in order to drive up the cost of 13' ladders tho to me but...
go ahead... hire about a thousand or more extra cops to try to plug what is essentialy a sieve to the land of milk and honey... Like trying to capture water in your spread hands.
or... throw your hard earned money at the politicians and let em give you a handful of magic beans and a few months of tough talk and sound bites.
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sandie... are you then agreed that the border patrol should be increased to solve the problem? I don't think that you are..
as for the employers... first you catch the ones who are not even putting illegals on the books... then you bust the ones who are not asking for ID (breaking the law) then the ones who are allowing obvious phoney ID and then...
you establish a central checkpoint exactly like us gun owners/buyers have to go through to buy a gun. You want a job? fill out the form and we will send it electronicaly... come back in 12 hours and if your background check is clean.... you're hired...
even phase one will scare 90% of the cowardly,traitorous scum bag employers into acting legaly....
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
you establish a central checkpoint exactly like us gun owners/buyers have to go through to buy a gun. You want a job? fill out the form and we will send it electronicaly... come back in 12 hours and if your background check is clean.... you're hired...
lazs
You mean something like the U.S. Department of Labor?
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sandie... not sure what you are doing here.... you only look at the negative.
I have said that simply securing the border will not work... it needs to be done in conjunction with arresting the employers and not giving education and welfare benifiets or drivers licences to illegals.
Bush has said that if it is against the law to hire illegals then we ought to enforce that law.
No matter what anyone thinks of Bush... he does not rule by poll... he does not rule by what makes his own party happy or to appease...he cares less about popularity polls than any pres in recent memory..
He may be the man for this job.... he certainly was the man for choosing 2 supreme court justices and a bunch of other judges.
can anyone here imagine what kerries solutions would have looked like?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
can anyone here imagine what kerries solutions would have looked like?
lazs
Does anyone here waste their time with such meaningless speculation?
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yes sandie.... something like the U.S. department of labor... you give them the same tools you give the freaks that do background checks on future gun owners.
lazs
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Speaking of agendas... yours is showing. ;)
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Originally posted by john9001
PS, i didn't know the guard was allowed to carry loaded guns.:)
Whaaaa?
If they are put on the border they d,m well better be armed. It`s a fricken war zone in itself. Armed drug runners, gangs, coyotes.............not to mention the crossings by the Mexican military.
If they were not armed it would amount to the first landings in Nam where the troops had empty magazines. Don`t think that will ever fly again.
The very concept of America as "The Land of the Free" is altered by securing our borders with armed troops.
Hockey pucks!
"The Land Of The Free" refers to those of us who legaly live here........the citizens. Our military is the very reason we are the land of the free. Our military has, and will continue to, protect and preserve that. Without them we would be the "Land Of The Pushover".
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Originally posted by Sandman
Here's my "agenda". I wonder how effective the Border Patrol could be if they had just a fraction of the money spent in Iraq.
They do have just a fraction: in the 6.7 billion Border; FY2006 budget/$72.4 billion; an Iraq supplemental request in congress now.
See there? Your government bends over backwards to make you happy.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Without them we would be the "Land Of The Pushover".
Also known as: France
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If nothing else the Minuteman Project has brought this probelm to light in the U.S. in a big way.
Sort of goes to show that being a true patriot still works and can still get gubment off their tails when nothing else works.
IMHO, publicly calling the Minutemen vigilantes was a huge mistake.
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Firearms background check time is generally less than 15 minutes start to finish, if you can read the paperwork and write the answers in a normal fashion. This includes phoning in the answers and getting the approval. The overhwhelming vast majority of applicants are approved right away.
I think something like that would be fine for job applicants. One could check out the SSAN they are using and see if it belonged to a dead guy in a short amount of time. I'm sure a few other things could be included in the check quite easily, like driver's licenses and such.
Also, it's just logical to enforce the laws against employing illegals. One shouldn't shy from that just because there might be a few difficult cases. There will also be rediculously easy cases that will serve to make the point.
Same with the border. Again I ask if anyone has historical examples of well-off societies that managed to maintain a high standard of living and open borders at the same time. I can't think of one.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Also known as: France
This would be the same France that lost 562,000 people during WWII. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Hockey pucks!
"The Land Of The Free" refers to those of us who legally live here........the citizens. Our military is the very reason we are the land of the free. Our military has, and will continue to, protect and preserve that. Without them we would be the "Land Of The Pushover".
Wrong. WE are the reason we can call ourselves free. When the day finally comes that we must rely on only our military to secure our borders and secure US in our homes THEN you can call us the "Land of the Pushovers". And while we may be nearly there, hopefully we wont reach that low point in my lifetime.
Securing basic freedoms: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness; those are the responsibility of every citizen. Not the US Military. It is up to us to do our part every day to continue to protect and preserve that, not the job of the military. Their job is to fight other armies. This is a job for law enforcement. Something that up to this point has been nearly ignored.
It is specifically NOT the job of the military to perform police actions inside the borders of the US. This isnt the first time Bush has pushed to do this. Most likely his intentions are good, but establishing the precedent is BAD. Our troops have enough problems to deal with right now without deploying them along the border to defend us against starving Mexicans and drug dealers.
Fund the Border Patrol and staff it as it should be staffed. Give them the equipment they need to do the job. Enforce the laws that are on the books as they should be. Involve citizens by making them understand their civic duty. Hell, provide rewards for turning in people who employ illegals. There is plenty of precedent for that sort of thing.
We've had years of the govt. glossing over the problem or sweeping it under a rug. They dont think its a big deal until politics forces them to. Popluar media constantly gives the sympathetic view, reinforcing the public idea that it's not a major crime. You cant change everyone's POV overnight, but you have to. Nothing they do will make any difference if the people who live around the borders arent involved. Attitudes need to be adjusted and POV changed from top to bottom. Once that happens (if it happens) you will see drastic change in how porous our borders are without a single soldier being posted out there.
I admire and respect anyone that volunteers to wear the uniform of any branch of the US military. Any man or woman who puts themselves in harms way to defend others. But I'll be damned if I'll rely on them to defend me in my own home. Thats my job, not the governments.
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Originally posted by Sandman
At last... the real point behind this emerges. Illegal immigrants.
:aok
Here's my "agenda". I wonder how effective the Border Patrol could be if they had just a fraction of the money spent in Iraq.
As for the arrest of employers. Good luck with that. In order to convict, the state must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the employers knowingly hired illegal aliens.
Anytime I've ever gotten a job (other than construction), I've had to show proof of citizenship ie....drivers liscence, social security card. Those same companies have also photocopied my ID's to put in my personell records.
If a company doesnt do those things doesnt that make them negligent and therefor guilty?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Anytime I've ever gotten a job (other than construction), I've had to show proof of citizenship ie....drivers liscence, social security card. Those same companies have also photocopied my ID's to put in my personell records.
If a company doesnt do those things doesnt that make them negligent and therefor guilty?
It certainly does. But if someone uses fake IDs, is the employer at fault?
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Isnt using a fake ID yet another crime?
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Originally posted by Elfie
Isnt using a fake ID yet another crime?
Probably.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Wrong. WE are the reason we can call ourselves free. When the day finally comes that we must rely on only our military to secure our borders and secure US in our homes THEN you can call us the "Land of the Pushovers". And while we may be nearly there, hopefully we wont reach that low point in my lifetime.
Securing basic freedoms: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness; those are the responsibility of every citizen. Not the US Military. It is up to us to do our part every day to continue to protect and preserve that, not the job of the military. Their job is to fight other armies. This is a job for law enforcement. Something that up to this point has been nearly ignored.
It is specifically NOT the job of the military to perform police actions inside the borders of the US. This isnt the first time Bush has pushed to do this. Most likely his intentions are good, but establishing the precedent is BAD. Our troops have enough problems to deal with right now without deploying them along the border to defend us against starving Mexicans and drug dealers.
Fund the Border Patrol and staff it as it should be staffed. Give them the equipment they need to do the job. Enforce the laws that are on the books as they should be. Involve citizens by making them understand their civic duty. Hell, provide rewards for turning in people who employ illegals. There is plenty of precedent for that sort of thing.
We've had years of the govt. glossing over the problem or sweeping it under a rug. They dont think its a big deal until politics forces them to. Popluar media constantly gives the sympathetic view, reinforcing the public idea that it's not a major crime. You cant change everyone's POV overnight, but you have to. Nothing they do will make any difference if the people who live around the borders arent involved. Attitudes need to be adjusted and POV changed from top to bottom. Once that happens (if it happens) you will see drastic change in how porous our borders are without a single soldier being posted out there.
I admire and respect anyone that volunteers to wear the uniform of any branch of the US military. Any man or woman who puts themselves in harms way to defend others. But I'll be damned if I'll rely on them to defend me in my own home. Thats my job, not the governments.
:aok Agreed. I've long held that an American Soldier, armed and on patrol on the streets of a war-torn forigen country, doing the dirty duty is a Hero. The same soldier, armed and on patrol inside our own country is a symbol of government tyranny.
OTOH, there's a role for the military in protecting our borders. A big portion of military capability revolves around employment of survelience technology.. Identify, Classify, Report. We can certainly use their help.. and actual interdiction, arrest and detainment can be handled by Border Patrol. The recent incursions of armed elements that appear to be corrupt mexican military units in the areas adjecent to and over our borders are a clear indication that a corresponding American Military Overwatch and Survelience Mission should certainly be mounted ASAP.
I don't favor the physical fence and troops in foxholes approach... but we can sure quickly increase the number of succesful interceptions and staunch the flow quite a bit by using the Military's JSTAR, RPV and remote sensor systems in support of the Border Patrol...
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Originally posted by Sandman
Probably.
Last I heard it was a crime, which would make the employer a victim of a crime. Unless the fake ID was done so horribly that even a blind man could see it was fake, the employer shouldnt be held liable imo.
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The recent incursions of armed elements that appear to be corrupt mexican military units in the areas adjecent to and over our borders
M1 Abrams and Bradley AFV's positioned just on our side of the border would stop those incursions by the Mexican military imo.
The Mexican army crossing our borders is an act of war imo and needs to be stopped asap.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Last I heard it was a crime, which would make the employer a victim of a crime. Unless the fake ID was done so horribly that even a blind man could see it was fake, the employer shouldnt be held liable imo.
I don't see the employer as a victim in this case. He paid a wage and got a job done. Simple as that. He deducted taxes from the wage and paid the government.
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Originally posted by Elfie
M1 Abrams and Bradley AFV's positioned just on our side of the border would stop those incursions by the Mexican military imo.
The Mexican army crossing our borders is an act of war imo and needs to be stopped asap.
Nope. No armed surface force is required.
Overwatch can detect the presence of any vehicle within 10 miles of the border.. if anything looking like a potential crossing attempt develops; the tones are transmitted, the location and threat sent to the Border Patrol and State Police.. and support Air elements scrambled..
The apperance within a few minutes of a covey of Apache helicopters.. hovering menacingly 6" inside our border with orders to respond with overwhelming force to the first shot at either them or the Border Patrol units sent to the treat scene will send a very powerful message to the coyotes, drug smugglers or anybody else foolish enought to think we won't defend American Soil..
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Operation Tampon "Stopping the flow"
Actually Hangtime, State sworn police do not get involved in Federal immigration enforcement as a rule, a nearby CHP officer will chase em in their car, wave "welcome to America" if on foot.
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:aok
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Originally posted by Elfie
Last I heard it was a crime, which would make the employer a victim of a crime. Unless the fake ID was done so horribly that even a blind man could see it was fake, the employer shouldnt be held liable imo.
A $10.00 private data base search would weed out 98% of the fake SS cards, and a half hour of work by a reasonably competent HR person would uncover the other 2%.
shamus
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Wrong. WE are the reason we can call ourselves free. When the day finally comes that we must rely on only our military to secure our borders and secure US in our homes THEN you can call us the "Land of the Pushovers".
Securing us in our borders and securing us in our homes is EXACTLY what our troops are doing in Irag , Afghanistan, etc.
BTW.....The U.S. Border Patrol is a government agency, now a part of Homeland Security, so anyway you cut it it is Government troops of one form or another.
It is specifically NOT the job of the military to perform police actions inside the borders of the US.
When it comes to national security and protecting the very fabric of our nation it no longer is a "police action". That`s exactly the point it has reached. We have a big problem here. A national problem, not just the border states.
Fund the Border Patrol and staff it as it should be staffed. Give them the equipment they need to do the job. Enforce the laws that are on the books as they should be.
Agreed, but until they are brought up to specs and to date we can use all the help we can get.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Nope. No armed surface force is required.
Overwatch can detect the presence of any vehicle within 10 miles of the border.. if anything looking like a potential crossing attempt develops; the tones are transmitted, the location and threat sent to the Border Patrol and State Police.. and support Air elements scrambled..
The apperance within a few minutes of a covey of Apache helicopters.. hovering menacingly 6" inside our border with orders to respond with overwhelming force to the first shot at either them or the Border Patrol units sent to the treat scene will send a very powerful message to the coyotes, drug smugglers or anybody else foolish enought to think we won't defend American Soil..
This would work also. Anything that works is fine by me.
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Originally posted by Shamus
A $10.00 private data base search would weed out 98% of the fake SS cards, and a half hour of work by a reasonably competent HR person would uncover the other 2%.
shamus
We dont have a system in place to do that atm, we should, but we dont. Hopefully that will change soon.
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220 B.C.
Qin Shi Huangdi: Maybe if I build a wall it will keep out the barbarians.
122 A.D.
Hadrian: Maybe if I build a wall it'll keep out the barbarians.
1948 A.D.
Stalin: Maybe if I build a wall it'll keep out the barbarians and keep in my own people.
2006 A.D.
Bush: I've got a government issued credit card with no limit and an idea that nobody's thought of before.
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Jackal, I understand the point you are trying to make, but I cannot agree that an armed military force is what will knit our society back together. The root of the problem is the idea of Racism, as wielded by those who have an axe to grind. Everything from unevenly distributed enforcement of the laws to the subversion of our very thoughts on what constitutes "illegal" by portrayals in the media (news, movies, TV, books, newspapers, radio .......) clouds our perception of the problem and divides us on where to draw the lines; we make it easy for those people who scream Racist! to divide us. We have to regain focus on the real issues of LEGAL immigration and enforcement of immigration law. We have to focus on staffing and equipping the enforcement offices. Volunteers like the Minutemen help fill the gaps immensely, and a govt. sponsored program could increase that role. Educating people on the impact of illegals with more than just sound bites on the news. Provide incentives like rewards for doing the RIGHT thing, and turning in illegals or their employers.
If we have armed Mexican troops crossing the border, then by all means, call out the Army and have them stomp some little grease spots out in the desert. However, they have no business enforcing our laws on US soil.
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Originally posted by Elfie
We dont have a system in place to do that atm, we should, but we dont. Hopefully that will change soon.
That system is in place now, I access it all the time, any employer can if they want to, most dont want to.
If they review the documents that INS tells them they must they are covered, they dont give a rip if its fake or not.
Now if the feds really wanted to stop this illegal worker problem, add the search to the paperwork, its not rocket science.
shamus
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Jackal, I understand the point you are trying to make, but I cannot agree that an armed military force is what will knit our society back together.
Hehe. I think trying to knit our society back together would be too big of a job to expect from anybody or anything at the present. That I wouldn`t expect from the military or any other organization. I think that can only be done if and when some decide to pull their heads out of a very dark place. :) I understand what you are trying to say though.
The root of the problem is the idea of Racism, as wielded by those who have an axe to grind.
Those that wish to play the race card have the deck arranged for it to be on top of the deck to be dealt at any and every occasion. I think that`s pretty obvious to most.
This is not a race issue. It is an issue of security to our nation. Illegal Mexicans crossing the border is just the tip of the iceburg.
The Mexican government is , has been, and probably will continue to be very corrupt. For sale to the highest bidder comes to mind.
As far as the Mexican people are concerned....I feel for them, but I beleive the best way that we might be of some help or aid to them is to get our chickens in a row here at home first. Then we might be able to help.
Everything from unevenly distributed enforcement of the laws to the subversion of our very thoughts on what constitutes "illegal" by portrayals in the media (news, movies, TV, books, newspapers, radio .......) clouds our perception of the problem and divides us on where to draw the lines; we make it easy for those people who scream Racist! to
Agreed on that. Still you are seeing the problem as only concerning illegal Mexicans crossing. It`s a much bigger problem than that, but.......if you are on U.S. soil and you have entered the country by illegal means, you have commited an illegal act. You are here illegaly, no matter what the point of origination was. Cut and dried.
Volunteers like the Minutemen help fill the gaps immensely, and a govt. sponsored program could increase that role.
Agreed again. You also see how the Minutemen have been portrayed by our government. Vigilantes. Being called vigilantes for doing civic duty is not very wise choice of words IMHO.
As I said earlier ......if nothing else the Minuteman project has brought this problem to the public eye in a BIG way and has also proven that being a patriot still works.
If we have armed Mexican troops crossing the border, then by all means, call out the Army and have them stomp some little grease spots out in the desert.
Which has happened on many occasions.
However, they have no business enforcing our laws on US soil.
[/QUOTE]
IMHO, it is the defending of our national secuity and our well being as a nation. Defending and preventing an invasion is eactly the duty and purpose of our military. Which is exactly what is taking place.
I think we agree on most isssues. It`s just that we are looking at different issues.
I think your comment on "out in the desert" is pretty much the way it is viewed by most. That is not the case. A trip to a border town such as Laredo after nightfall would be an eye opener for most. There is a battleground out there and it is being fought on U.S. soil by understaffed agencies that are not prepared for nor were implemented for such occurences. It`s getting worse rapidly and is very, very dangerous to the U.S. and our well being as a nation.
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I think Hang is right in that I do not want to see soldiers roaming our streets enforcing federal law. I also think that he is correct the government has the duty to protect our borders.
sandie is wrong in the whole employer thing. Just paying (witholding) taxes on the illegals is not enough... they are a huge drain on education and healthcare too..
If we did not have so many social welfare services then.. simply witholding taxes would be fine so far as the financial end. That is not the case tho.
either we have open borders and no hiring laws or we enforce the laws we have. The most effective way to do the latter is to put the least amount of effort toward making the most difference and getting the most results... that is...
start throwing some of the scum bag, traitorous employers in prison before they sink us all.
lazs
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Historically, what well-off nation has been able to maintain a high standard of living with unregulated borders?
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Toad.. yer right. The borders MUST be secure from unwanted incursion, traffic and illegal immigration.
We have agencys in place, laws on the books and guess what.. there is little enforcement and no deterrence.
Police agencies are mandated to not check immigration status as part of routine police activity. If i get stopped for a seatbelt violation, if there's a parking ticket warrant; off in cuffs I go. If an illegal ailen gets stopped, his illegal status is ignored, mine is not. That's messed up.
Here's what i think should be done...
we need to go to 'catch and release' NOW. If police get thier hands on a non documented ailen, off to INS and deportation he goes.
We need the current fine and imprisonment statutes for employing illegals enforced.
Due Dilligence -- documentable data base INS document check standards for employers needs to be implemented.
we need states to stop issuing licenses and providing services to illegals.
We need the military to provide complete border recon & survelience and active air incursion support to Border Patrol. States National Guard can be tasked, but implementation standards between states must be on par with federal guidelines to receive federal funding.
Border Patrol needs to be FULLY funded and staffed to the task of interdiction and detainment/processing/deportation.
Local county and town police/sherrifs departments could/should be paid a 'bounty' by the feds for illegals turned over for INS proccesing and deportment to help defray costs of enforcement in border counties.
The MinuteMen should recieve a commendation from Congress. And the rat weazel corporate sellout in the oval office should sign it.
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Originally posted by Toad
Historically, what well-off nation has been able to maintain a high standard of living with unregulated borders?
historically well off nations didn't have the threat of IEDs on our streets and in our schools. A backpack full of C4 and a couple of school busses early in the morning would be a heafty price to pay for wanting "open borders"
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
historically well off nations didn't have the threat of IEDs on our streets and in our schools. A backpack full of C4 and a couple of school busses early in the morning would be a heafty price to pay for wanting "open borders"
That threat was as real twenty years ago as it is today. Just sayin'.
Curing the disease is preferable to treating the symptoms anyhoo.
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Immigration isn't about race as much as its about education and class. I have no problem with Indian doctors or Japanese engineers coming to America. But the last thing we need is a bunch of uneducated poor people streaming across our borders. We have enough of those as it is.
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Funny how the problem wasn't feared as much prior to 911. Alot of somewhat well to do farmers and housewives in southern states helped transport their share of illegals north of the border for a ready supply of cheap labor. That isn't doctors and engineers, for the record. Heck, seems feet have been dragging even after 911. This wasn't the issues it is now throughout Bush's first term. So ... NOW we panic. Gotta get this fixed before the current election. ;)
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When do you suggest we address it?
It hasn't been adequately addressed for at least the last 20 years, elections or no elections.
And, again, no one has yet pointed out a country that was able to maintain a high standard of living while leaving it's borders open to illegal immigrants or just anyone who felt like crossing over and living in that country.
So, sooner or later it needs to be addressed. What do you suggest, sooner or later?
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Our current standard of living (as a whole) is actually dropping. And although that could lead to equilibrium, I'd prefer it the other way. Help those south of the border raise theirs and the flow will slow. As far as security is considered, we've the technology to monitor the entire border. Of that, I'm certain. What we don't have is enough guardsmen to deploy without an increase of force. And if we increase the guard, why not just increase the BP?
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Like it or not, the illegals are part of the reason why it is dropping.
Equilibrium by bringing them here will occur at a very low level. ;)
So is it sooner or later?
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I didn't suggest that an equilibrium with a mutual increase of the standard of living involved continued influx of illegal immigrants. Although there needs to be control on the border, that's the bandaid for the wound, not the cure for the disease.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Securing basic freedoms: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness; those are the responsibility of every citizen. Not the US Military. It is up to us to do our part every day to continue to protect and preserve that, not the job of the military.
Freedom from what? In my mind, the evils that our natures produce.
hap
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Originally posted by Arlo
I didn't suggest that an equilibrium with a mutual increase of the standard of living involved continued influx of illegal immigrants. Although there needs to be control on the border, that's the bandaid for the wound, not the cure for the disease.
I agree the securing the border alone won't do it. Because the worst that happens to the transgressors that actually get caught is a misdemeanor charge, a short trip back to Mexico and a chance to try it again tomorrow.
Laz has it right. Start jailing those who knowingly hire illegals and the supply of jobs will dry up and/or shrink. No jobs, no point in crossing the border illegally to find work that isn't there.
And puh-leez, don't anyone bring up "it's just too hard to prove they hired them knowing they were illegal" or "the fake id's are just too good".
The can easily be a check of documents in the same way they check who you are when you buy a gun. Fill out a 4473, call it in and get approval or disapproval in 15 mintues or less. As Shamus said:
A $10.00 private data base search would weed out 98% of the fake SS cards, and a half hour of work by a reasonably competent HR person would uncover the other 2%.
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Agreed. :)
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Immigration reform, or the lack thereof, is all about politics, and has nothing to do with national security. In the nineteen eighties, Congress vested some three million illegal aliens, most of whom were citizens of Mexico, with a stay in the US, and receive your US citizenship card, free. Congress then made an explicit promise to the American people to tighten border security, so this would never happen again.
Fast forward twenty years, and now we are talking about some eighteen million illegal aliens, most of whom are citizens of Mexico. Congress would now like to give them all a stay in the US, and receive your US citizen card, free. In return, Congress is willing to make an explicit promise to the American people to secure our borders, so that this will never happen again.
Sorry, but I am not going to buy that load of happy horse chit, twice.
If Congress and US corporations wish to create a North American Free Work Agreement (NAFWA), then fine, let's all debate it out in the open.
As for “border security” in an era of “backpack” portable nuclear bombs, that is a joke. The USSR spent trillions of hard earned rubles on border security. For what? A kid flying a Cessna penetrated that security and landed in Red Square. If he had chanted Allah Ackbar three times, pressed the red button, and converted some sixty pounds of uranium into carbon, strontium, iodine, and cesium, then adios Moscow, and adios to trillions of rubles worth of “border security.”
In my not so humble opinion, any nation that wants security in the twenty-first century, had better start by addressing the problems of it's neighbors. And, like it or not, in the twenty-first century, we are all neighbors.
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Very good points Rotax. Worth giving some thought.
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The one thing that seams different today is that now it's an issue that ordinary Americans are getting very pissed-off about and are fed up with.
I don't remember it ever being as hot an issue as it is today. It's becoming as issue that the politicians can't ignore.
911, Minuteman, "Day without illegals", NAFTA.
It's coming to a head now.
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3,000 rounds HPBT .308 arrived today. eyeballing a 105mm howitzer now...
self propelled, or towed?
decisions, decisions.
;)
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Originally posted by Hangtime
3,000 rounds HPBT .308 arrived today. eyeballing a 105mm howitzer now...
self propelled, or towed?
decisions, decisions.
;)
What are you gonna do? Go in to see "Big Al" and shoot up the works? :D
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Would make for a nice yard toy for the neighborhood kids to play on. The gun tube would be an ideal adjustable ridgepole for a killer swing set.
:D
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In WWII we did have army and reserve units manning the coast with big guns and everything....
lazs
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We sure did, and they were under orders from POTUS to engage and fire upon any Japanese or German enemy combatants that they encountered.
So, has POTUS declared that unarmed Mexican citizens illegally entering our country are enemy combatants? Has he given orders to our military to open fire on them? If not, then what is the point in sending combat troops to the border?
At least eighteen million Mexican citizens have illegally crossed our border over the past twenty years. Could someone tell me how many terrorist acts they have committed? How many planes have they hijacked? How many schools have they shot up? How many federal buildings have they bombed?
The Mexican people are not our enemy. Start shooting them when they cross the border, and they sure will be.
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rotax... if we have an immigration policy and any violation of that policy is illegal and a countries citizens are violating it and our borders at a monstrous and increasing rate....
At what point do we not see that as a threat to our country? They may not be committing terrorists acts but what do you call having 85% of all people arrested for murder in LA being illegals? What do you call the assault on our infrastructure?
I don't really see that much difference between national guard troops and green border patrol agents... I would agree that military troops would only be appropriate till the problem got to a manageable level.
I would very much be interested in your solution tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
rotax... if we have an immigration policy and any violation of that policy is illegal and a countries citizens are violating it and our borders at a monstrous and increasing rate....
At what point do we not see that as a threat to our country? They may not be committing terrorists acts but what do you call having 85% of all people arrested for murder in LA being illegals? What do you call the assault on our infrastructure?
I call the assault on our infrastructure an abject failure of our education system. Of course, that is best left to another thread.
I don't really see that much difference between national guard troops and green border patrol agents... I would agree that military troops would only be appropriate till the problem got to a manageable level.
Border Patrol agents, green or not, are taught the observation, surveillance, investigative, and detention techniques common to all law enforcement personal. National Guard troops are taught to maneuver against, and destroy armed enemy combatants. I see a very clear difference between the two.
I would very much be interested in your solution tho.
lazs
Nothing interesting or novel in my solution. In fact, if you can answer these two questions, you already know the only solution that I believe will work.
1) Why did the Senate fail to confirm Zoe Baird's nomination as Attorney General?
2) How many years did Zoe Baird spend in jail?
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Originally posted by Rotax447
So, has POTUS declared that unarmed Mexican citizens illegally entering our country are enemy combatants?
The armed gangs doing escort and smuggling would probably be considered combatants , yes.
SA has vowed to come across the border and do attacks. Combatants? Yes.
Armed Mexican military personel and vehicles crossing the border. Combatants? Yes.
Has he given orders to our military to open fire on them?
I certainly hope the order to fire is given for those who are crossing illegaly that are armed.
If not, then what is the point in sending combat troops to the border?
Mostly manpower and prevention. I wouldn`t say their main purpose would be as "combat troops". I certainly hope that in a combat situation that they are allowed to act accordingly though instead of being "watered down" and put in danger.
I`d suggest that a little time spent on the border after nightfall would change a lot of opinions. It`s a friggen battlefield in itself at times.
Could someone tell me how many terrorist acts they have committed?
Noone knows what has crossed the border for certain. That is a main point.
How many schools have they shot up?
There has been plenty of shooting by Mexican gangs .
Start shooting them when they cross the border, and they sure will be. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
Start crossing over legaly instead of illegaly and there will not be a problem.
If you cross into our country armed and looking for a fight, I`m sure you can be accomodated.
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ok rotax.. I admit it.... I can't solve the puzzle. I agree that our educational system needs to be wiped out and started over with vouchers (is that what you are saying?)
I also agree that we should not allow illegals access to our infrastucture but...
How would that stop them from access to crime and our criminal justice system? if they are a drain on police and courts and jails....
I would also agree that the border patrol should not be replaced by the national guard except in the most temporrary manner.
So... what is your solution?
lazs
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Let's annex Mexico and tax them all. ;)
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"eyeballing a 105mm howitzer now... self propelled, or towed? decisions, decisions."
Pssst . Don't call your local arms dealer via any phone for that stuff. "You know who" is listening in. ;)
"Let's annex Mexico and tax them all"
Sheesh. If there was anything left worth taking, let alone taxing, they would have kept it back in 1848.
Although.... Would we get better airfare and services to Cancun and Cabo San Lucas?
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Lazs, in nineteen eighty six, Congress passed a law making it illegal to hire undocumented workers. Zoe Baird broke that law. She also broke a law which requires employers pay a FICA tax. She was fined $2900 for breaking those laws.
When the economic penalty for violating a law, is less than the cost of complying with the law, then don't be surprised when millions and millions of employers break the law.
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rotax... I am familiar with the case. you will also note that klinton said that it was no big deal and that "everyone does it".... Also... she turned herself in and it was 1993... As I have said... no employers have been arrested since 1992 until this year I believe.
Also... at the time the fine was up to $250,000 and 10 years in prison.
I have said in several other threads tho that is not good enough... it needs to be a MANDATORY 1 year jail term for the first offense.
Do you suppose things might have taken a different turn in this country if that POS baird had done a year in prison?
rich employers will allways laugh at fines but not mandatory jail sentances... the roofing contractors and such will fold even easier...
The rich can find a fall guy for a fine if they bribe em but it is much harder to find someone who is willing to spend a year in prison for em.
lazs
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http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/immigration
Told ya. It's all about the $.
Just like the war on drugs, keep the focus on the supply and not the demand and uncle sam has himself a nice self perpetuating racket.
The tax dollars keep flowing and the agencies keep growing.
It's a win-win situation. Oh except for those who work for a living.
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I'd also like to add that it's nice to see our military servicemen being used for political leverage.
Yeah it disrupts their lives and further erodes the state of the US Army, but hey it's for a noble cause.
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Lazs, that is the long and the short of it. The law is in place, the penalties for violating the law are in place, yet the federal government refuses to enforcing the law.
At the very least, this is nonfeasances. In my opinion, the actions of POTUS and the Senate now border on treason.
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rotax... who is POTUS? is it a term for all the government since 1986?
The government is and has been in violation of the law. They should be enforcing the law against employers... Social security knows the number and place of employment of 99% of the illegals.. they have since the first one used a fake ID.
Bush recently said that if the employers are breaking the law then they should be punished.... that is probly the most any pres or politician has said on the subject since 1986.
Maybe we are all the POTUS since we all looked the other way too so long as it wasn't too bad...
Now... the "day without a leafblower" march and the constant media attention to the problem has galvanized us and we all jump to blame our favorite boogey man politician.... pretty easy too.... they are all guilty as hell. But so are we. The most guilty tho are those who hire illegals.
lazs
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Show some respect Laz!
He says Potus instead of president like the rest of us civilians because he's in the secret service I bet. Or Tom Clancy fan club.
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so it is a secret service term for president?
lazs
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Yup
President Of The United States
Flotus is First lady of....
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but..... I'm not in the secret service....
lazs
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You might be. It could be a secret.
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It's not much of a secret. Tom Clancy uses it in his books and West Wing used it often very early in the series.
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west wing? that leftie show that women and metrosexuals watch?
lazs
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Do you know how many hundreds and hundres of miles of border between Canada and the U.S. consists only of a sign that says "Welcome" ?