Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CMC Airboss on May 13, 2006, 11:14:48 PM
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The Mexican Navy is purchasing Su-27's as "strategic surveillance" platorms for its fleet defense unit.
Mexico selects Su-27 (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/05/09/Navigation/177/206478/Mexico+selects+Sukhoi+Su-27+for+strategic+surveillance.html)
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I think they're not entirely clear on what the word "strategic" means. For the price of 12 SU-27s, they could probably get a couple real surveilance platforms with 10 times the "strategic surveilance" capability. Of course then they wouldn't be able to say they have modern front line fighters either... My opinion is that it's much more about image and beating the joneses than it is about military capability.
If they wanted any kind of real military capability upgrade, they'd get a couple of those mini-awacs based on a regional jet, and lease a half dozen old F-16s with AMRAAM and datalinks to ground and airborn surveilance radars. But actual capability doesn't look as sexy at an airshow...
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10 of anything isn't even in the game. Gotta wonder who they're trying to impress other than themselves.
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I believe the Indian airforce uses the SU-27 as a sort of AWACS plane.
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and whu the hell is the mexicann navy goin g to surveillancize? CUBA?!#
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The drug trade WildThang.
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o yesa thei've had an extraordnry time surveillaincing drug trafficking... buying sophitcistated planes somehow gives them a reason to spend that hjard earned drug money., i love mexico! suckers. ..
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It's in part a political statement of solidarity with their latin american brothers down south. They're buying stuff that's compatible with cuban, venezualian, etc. equipment. They're saying that they are part of south america, not north america. They're making the point that they are not NATO and couldn't care less about NATO interoperability. They're defining themselves as part of a group that is distinctly separate from anything remotely related to the US.
Fine with me... Mud huts and disease are pretty non-US too and if they're happy with their mud huts and low standard of living, so be it. The only possible reason for me to care is that every year they deliberately keep themselves a 3rd world country is one more year the US suffers the effects of absolbing massive numbers of poor illegal immigrants who come to the US just to get money, not to become Americans.
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Besides, F-16's refuse to fly when chopped and lowered.
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Originally posted by eagl
It's in part a political statement of solidarity with their latin american brothers down south. They're buying stuff that's compatible with cuban, venezualian, etc. equipment. They're saying that they are part of south america, not north america. They're making the point that they are not NATO and couldn't care less about NATO interoperability. They're defining themselves as part of a group that is distinctly separate from anything remotely related to the US.
Fine with me... Mud huts and disease are pretty non-US too and if they're happy with their mud huts and low standard of living, so be it. The only possible reason for me to care is that every year they deliberately keep themselves a 3rd world country is one more year the US suffers the effects of absolbing massive numbers of poor illegal immigrants who come to the US just to get money, not to become Americans.
yes blame them cuz they buying chaper stuff from Russia without worry about being cutted from spare parts.
yes you can be angry cuz tey not buy form US, even if US was not trying to sell them anything. They had to choose between russian equipment and french.
Will you hate them more if they choose french planes? ;)
and btw, is that not freedom to buy from whoever you like
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I bet a majority of the folks here can now gain a posistion in the RCAF, Royal Chicano Air Force. :)
I hope I get to hear about the first one crosssing the border into US airspace :)
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so are they gonna add hydraulics and lots of tacky chrome and pull flybys in them?
gonna be hard aiming a tec9 out the window.
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Originally posted by rpm
Besides, F-16's refuse to fly when chopped and lowered.
LOL! :rofl
"pimp my Sukhoi"
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Really, for a limited plane airforce, the Su-27 is a better choice than the F-16. The F-16 is a single pilot, single engine aircraft. With the Su-27, you get two crew, two engines, a powerful radar, and lots of wing area. Its really the equivalent of the F-15. Perhaps a bit better due to the two crew members.
The latest F-16s (built for the Israelis) have a very high wingloading, are jammed packed with electronic gear, have huge external conformal fuel tanks, and are two-seaters.
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Only 2 of the 10 su27s they ordered were two seat trainers.
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Ramzey,
What are you talking about? Why the heck should I feel any need to "blame" mexico for buying military stuff? Maybe you have a chip on your shoulder, but I'm just pointing out that their decision seems to have a much bigger political justification than a military one. I usually cheer anytime another country buys russian hardware because I know that they'll be that much easier to defeat in the future if necessary...
If you see some sort of hidden agenda there that's really your problem, but I'm certainly not angry at all. It's their decision and they bought what they thought would benefit them the most. Or at least benefit whoever made the decision...
My only real concern is that if we ever had to try to work together with Mexico for defense, their newest stuff is totally incompatible with ours and that could present a problem. It's almost inconsequential that I find it a bit frustrating that they could have gotten a better capability that would integrate with ours for about the same money. But instead they chose some pretty new airplanes that don't integrate with anything including their own defense systems, for image and political reasons. The SU-27 really does look cool both on paper and at airshows.
Still, don't you think that the fact that they're visibly aligning themselves with strongly communist countries at a time that the US is having a long-overdue immigration and border control debate is at least worth noting? I think it's noteworthy. I figure if that's what makes them happy, then they should go with it including all the consequences, but let's not be blind to their motivations and agenda. One of the two nations that share a border with the US has chosen to buy military hardware that is compatible with the military hardware of nearby communist countries that hate the US with a passion, rather than buy hardware that could integrate with NATO standard hardware used by the US and Canada. That makes it a political statement more than anything else, because the purchase of a mere dozen fighters isn't really significant from a pure military capability standpoint.
Aquashrimp, the airframe itself is only a small part of the puzzle. That su-27 all by itself may beat an F-16 all by itself, but nobody fights alone anymore. What makes the US stuff superior is our effort put into integrating systems so they get info to the pilot as easily as possible. The F-16 still has better cockpit ergonomics than the SU-27 variants, and the F-16 can be purchased with datalink capabilities that could, for example, integrate seamlessly with NORAD data feeds in the event of a real defense emergency. But as it is now, the stuff they have is just going to be in the way, because it can't be integrated in any useful fashion.
In any case, I wouldn't suggest that Mexico buy a new build F-16 to Israeli specs... I'd suggest a lease or buy on refurbished air defense F-16s. They're lighter, can be easier/cheaper to maintain, are quite reliable, and the older F-16s matched with the newer engines have very good basic performance. An air defense F-16 with external fuel tanks and AMRAAM, when datalinked to ground and airborn surveilance radar, is a very capable system.
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Hang - good decision.
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I doubt that those new F16s for israel were built with air defence in mind. They are long range bombers IMO.
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For Mexico Su-27's are a far better choise than any American fighter. It'll be far cheaper to maintain and requires less skilled maintenance crew. The plane is also robust.
Besides, why would they want to have their military forces dependant of the US? Russians will happily supply them with spare parts and ammo, even with a discount.
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Yeah, especially when Mexican/US relations are degrading. What if Mexico purchased a number of F-16s, then the U.S. stopped military trade with Mexico due to the immigrant issue?
Is it sure that Mexico is purchasing the Su-27 flanker? There are so many derivatives of the Flanker airframe nowadays.
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Originally posted by eagl
I think they're not entirely clear on what the word "strategic" means. For the price of 12 SU-27s, they could probably get a couple real surveilance platforms with 10 times the "strategic surveilance" capability. Of course then they wouldn't be able to say they have modern front line fighters either... My opinion is that it's much more about image and beating the joneses than it is about military capability.
If they wanted any kind of real military capability upgrade, they'd get a couple of those mini-awacs based on a regional jet, and lease a half dozen old F-16s with AMRAAM and datalinks to ground and airborn surveilance radars. But actual capability doesn't look as sexy at an airshow...
This is gonna be great!
Mexican Airforce, Mexican pilots, Airshows, SU-27, Mexico City thin high alt air.. Hmmmm, anybody wanna take bets on the first Mexico K36 demostration?...
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Originally posted by eagl
Still, don't you think that the fact that they're visibly aligning themselves with strongly communist countries at a time that the US is having a long-overdue immigration and border control debate is at least worth noting? I think it's noteworthy. I figure if that's what makes them happy, then they should go with it including all the consequences, but let's not be blind to their motivations and agenda. One of the two nations that share a border with the US has chosen to buy military hardware that is compatible with the military hardware of nearby communist countries that hate the US with a passion, rather than buy hardware that could integrate with NATO standard hardware used by the US and Canada. That makes it a political statement more than anything else, because the purchase of a mere dozen fighters isn't really significant from a pure military capability standpoint.
Mexico's relationship with Venezuela and Cuba are at the lowest point ever and I seriously doubt that paid any consideration into Mexico's decision to purchase Russian military equipment. It boiled down to what can they get for the lowest amount of cash. The U.S. would have put down too many conditions on Mexico for any U.S. combat planes where as Russia's only condition is that the check doesn't bounce when they go cash it.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by eagl
Hang - good decision.
I can be such a bellybutton sometimes.
Thanks!
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After handing out the cash to Russia, and promising them to use them to their full potential.
Mexico's Sukhoi shipment arrives.
(http://home.c2i.net/chorten/Sukhoi%20Cato%20FS.jpg)
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Just gives our planes target practice whn the US/mexico war starts
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I heard it plays "La Cucaracha" when you hit the afterburners.
Also, I heard they are forgoing camouflage in favor of a mural of a naked girl riding a leopard.
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Originally posted by eagl
Still, don't you think that the fact that they're visibly aligning themselves with strongly communist countries at a time that the US is having a long-overdue immigration and border control debate is at least worth noting?
Strongly communist countries? :rolleyes:
Using the words that you don't understand rationally, simply because they were imprinted into your brain 20 years ago?...
Russian Federation isn't a "communist" country, Communist Party is in opposition to the regime since it wasn't banned by a court decision in 1993 IIRC and continued working. We have strong restrictions on ideology, including no parties forming organisation at "enterprise" level, in "working collectives".
WTG RosOboronExport! Latin American countries are always quite easily persuaded using "non-traditional" business schemes. ;)
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Originally posted by eagl
snip
I usually cheer anytime another country buys russian hardware because I know that they'll be that much easier to defeat in the future if necessary...
A kill has been recorded.
culero :D
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The biggest question I have is how are they going to mod the SU-27 to fit 10 people in the cockpit? I just don't think it's mechanically possible. ;)
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The drug trade WildThang.
Only because they don't want any competition
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The drug trade WildThang.
Yea, they're searching for US coast Guard Vessles so as to better co ordinate the smuggling of Drugs into the USA
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...so they got rid of the pelicans??
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I don't pretend to know the agenda behind the mex decision to buy Russian jets; but there is nothing wrong with the planes, they are affordable, robust, powerful & if equiped with the Russian look down - shoot down radar; they're down right deadly. It definetly puts them one step above the other central american countries.
Ten planes would not even be a speed bump to the United States's air arm & the mexican military knows it, so I doubt it was thinking they would be when they purchased them. But as far as how the Russian military equipment fares against our planes, here is a snip from a news article about a recent war game against Russian Equipment flown by Indian Pilots:
"The success of India's air force against US fighters in an exercise suggests the US may be losing its air superiority, a US general has said. Gen Hal Hornburg said an exercise in February, known as Cope India, had been "a wake-up call".
The mock air battles in central India had pitted US F-15s against advanced Russian-designed Sukhoi SU-30s. General Hornburg said the results show the US may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as it had thought."
Of course this all could have been a staged result by the U.S. air force to help push through the F-22 & other advanced tactical fighter programs.
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Mexico has about zero need for an airforce.
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Good for Mexico, they should get some nukes to go with them. Then they can defend them selves.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Good for Mexico, they should get some nukes to go with them. Then they can defend them selves.
yeah, because they have always been under the threat of being invaded and attacked.
They need to defend themselves with 12 Russian fighters! That's the ticket. :)
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Hey, fer 5 grand apiece an a cup of borsht the mexicans got a good deal.
not a great deal, but a good one.
I think they like the borscht.
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Sukhoi 27 is sooo 1970s, Mexico must be getting the up-to-date The Su-30MKI series with "glass" cockpit and up-to-date electronics. The R-73 and R-77 missles make the Su-27 formidable and they are supperior to SIDEWINDER and AMRAAM repectfully.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I heard it plays "La Cucaracha" when you hit the afterburners.
Also, I heard they are forgoing camouflage in favor of a mural of a naked girl riding a leopard.
Jaguar, leopards are old world. You must've overwritten that data in your mind with hockey stats or something. :p
Anyway, good on Mexico.
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Originally posted by Hangtime
Hey, fer 5 grand apiece an a cup of borsht the mexicans got a good deal.
not a great deal, but a good one.
I believe it was $410 million:)
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Originally posted by Pooh21
so are they gonna add hydraulics and lots of tacky chrome and pull flybys in them?
gonna be hard aiming a tec9 out the window.
:rofl
What about spinners and 20" wheels all around too..........
BAAHAHHHAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAHAAAHA AAAHAAAAA!!!!!!!1111
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Mexico's relationship with Venezuela and Cuba are at the lowest point ever and I seriously doubt that paid any consideration into Mexico's decision to purchase Russian military equipment. It boiled down to what can they get for the lowest amount of cash. The U.S. would have put down too many conditions on Mexico for any U.S. combat planes where as Russia's only condition is that the check doesn't bounce when they go cash it.
ack-ack
Yep the asking price by Russia is only equivalent to 50 peso's!
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Mr Big
yeah, because they have always been under the threat of being invaded and attacked.
Well....how many times did US military 'visit' Mexio already? They don’t want to make same mistake again… There is a popular saying…something about repeating history… :noid
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ROFLMAO - 10 or 20 fighter jets wouldn't stop our next "visit" if we so choose to make it. Mexico & Canada bask in the protection offered by living next door to the most powerful single nation on earth & have the audacity to slander us in public to our political rivals...we should smack 'em around & wreck their places up a bit now & then
(kidding...well, kidding about Canada anyway...well, some of Canada....well some of Canada sometimes):p
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Originally posted by Russian
Well....how many times did US military 'visit' Mexio already? They don’t want to make same mistake again… There is a popular saying…something about repeating history… :noid
How many times? I think a few times but only after Mexico or Mexican bandits attached the US.
But seriously, do you think they are buying 12 figerter in an attempt to stop the USAF?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How many times? I think a few times but only after Mexico or Mexican bandits attached the US.
But seriously, do you think they are buying 12 figerter in an attempt to stop the USAF?
Sure they did :rolleyes: Just like N-Vietnam attacked US…. :huh
I was talking about nuke. :aok That would stop liberation. Those 10 military and 2 training jets will probably work on drug trafficking problem.
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I'm sure you know that Mexico is a bit close to USA than Vietnam...
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So..you think the Mexicans are trying to make a threat to America by buying what ..12 fighters ????? Are you really that insecure that you think 12 fighters are a threat ???come on!!!!!
Mexico can buy what it wants when it wants.....(when ever it can afford to
)
I hear that outer mongolia has bought 2 attack canoe's perhaps you need to bolster your navy????????And these arent the cheap one's either , thay have full water proofing and speed paddles also !!!!!!hahahhahahaah
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm sure you know that Mexico is a bit close to USA than Vietnam...
What does that have to do with who attacked who first?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How many times? I think a few times but only after Mexico or Mexican bandits attached the US.
The only time the US went into Mexico after bandits was when the US dispatched Pershing and his men to go after Pancho Villa, a mission in which Pershing failed miserably. When the US landed in Vera Cruz, it was in direct response to Mexico nationalizing its industry and taking away the land owned by foreigners. US tried to force Mexico to reverse it's nationalization but it didn't work.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The only time the US went into Mexico after bandits was when the US dispatched Pershing and his men to go after Pancho Villa, a mission in which Pershing failed miserably. When the US landed in Vera Cruz, it was in direct response to Mexico nationalizing its industry and taking away the land owned by foreigners. US tried to force Mexico to reverse it's nationalization but it didn't work.
ack-ack
Maybe we should just surrender now and save all the fuss.