Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: MOSQ on May 14, 2006, 12:22:02 AM
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Folks,
There has been a vigorous discussion of the new flight model with 2.07. I've tested almost all the planes and have posted my results as a .pdf file below. I've also posted Kweassa's test from last year so you can compare the old model to the new. You can't compare the raw numbers because we tested slightly differently (he used stall limiter, I didn't) but the overall rankings can be compared.
I also tested with various weapons options. Ever wondered just how much better a P-47 with 6 guns and light ammo turns compared to 8 guns with heavy ammo? It's in the list.
I only tested one plane at every fuel %, the F4U-1D. But it will show just how important fuel load is in turning.
My figures are in Radius Feet and Degrees per Second to be consistent with Badboy's excellent doghouse charts.
In my testing I mostly only tested at No Flaps and Full Flaps. The reason is once you are in a edge of stall sustained turn fight you are hitting flaps as fast as you can get them down, so the intermediate flaps are not as important. However I did test enough at 1 notch and 2 notches to note that some planes turn WORSE with one notch of flaps than with no flaps. Notably the P-51 and the 109 series. In these planes you definitely want to get past one notch of flaps fast unless you are just using the flaps to slow down, but not turn.
IMHO the winners over the old model:
F4U series
109 series
The losers:
Ki-84 is no longer a full flaps uber turner, even a Niki will out turn it.
P-38s. (tested at 4 notches not full flaps. Full flaps is untestable)
The test procedure:
Test: 500 ft alt. 25% Fuel unless noted. Fuel Burn .0001. Stall Limiter: OFF. Combat Trim: OFF. WEP: ON. All turns Counter Clockwise. Altitude maintained +/- 50 ft. Speed maintained +/- 3 mph. E6B used to watch speed. Three circles turned after above Alt and Speed stable. Turns made on the edge of stall buffet. .Target command at 500 to provide an exact start/stop point for timing with a stopwatch. The most subjective part of the test was estimating the average speed over three circles.
Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07: http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Mosqs_Sustained_Turn_List_v207_5-9-06.pdf (http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Mosqs_Sustained_Turn_List_v207_5-9-06.pdf)
Kweassa's Turn testing:http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Kweassa_AHII_Turn_Performance.pdf (http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Kweassa_AHII_Turn_Performance.pdf)
Notice all tests were turning left, counterclockwise. I tested enough planes to determine that it typically made only a slight difference whether turning left or right. To test all planes in both directions would have taken more time than I was willing to devote! If you know a particular plane turns much better or worse left/right reply here and I'll test it to the right and add it's result to the list.
I'm looking forward to your feedback!
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Very nice. Thank you for taking the time to research this.
I see that the Spit 16 has a slightly larger turn radius than the Spit 5 (462 ft vs 437 ft) but it gets around it faster (20.4 dps vs 19.6 dps).
How can this be explained? Does the Spit 16s extra horsepower pull it through the turn faster?
Why does the Spit 14 seem to suffer so much in comparison? It has a 541 ft radius and 19.3 dps, but the Spit 16 and Spit 14 are listed as having the same weight in the plane pages (8500 lbs). The Griffon 65 in the Spit 14 should put out ~2035 hp, no idea how much the Spit 16's engine puts out (I guess I could go downstairs and look, I just dont care that much), but I'm sure it isn't more than that.
So whats the deal? Can someone explain how this all works?
Just with different varients of the same model (I.e. Spit 5 vs 9 vs 16 vs 14), not completely different planes.
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Urchin,
I'm no AE, but I can say that the extra HP in the 16 helps it a lot vs the 5. HP is important, all the planes I tested do better with their WEP on than off. They fly slightly slower with WEP off, but turn worse.
I didn't post the speeds and times intentionally because the charts get too complicated, but here they are for the Spits:
Spit 1: No Flaps: 138 mph/44 sec; Full Flaps 100 mph/ 51 seconds
Spit 5 : 138 mph/ 47 seconds; 102mph / 55 sec
Spit 8: 163 mph / 45 seconds; 118 mph / 52 sec
Spit 9: 170 mph / 48 seconds; 124 mph / 55 sec
Spit 14: 169 mph / 48 seconds; 124mph / 56 sec
Spit 16: 159mph / 46 seconds; 112 mph / 53 sec
The time in seconds is for 3 circles. So as you can see if in three full circles the difference is only a second, you'd have to make a lot of circles to actually close or widen the gap. Pilot ability to hold a perfect stall turn would be much more important.
I also tested acceleration, at 500 ft. the Spit 16 and Spit 14 have almost identical acceleration times from 150 to 250 mph. (Spit 16 18.2 secs, Spit 14 18.0 secs).
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Thaks MOSQ, very interesting and good work.
I have to say I'm completely amazed by the F4U flaps. Without them it is ranked between the P47 and the F6F - its radial brothers. With flaps it goes way WAY up the list, past even the N1K and right there with the spit 5.
The F4U-1 with full flaps looses only 1 dps compared to no flaps but cutts off about 250 (meter?) from the radius (37%).
Urchin, the thing that makes it complex is the need for sustaining the speed in the turn. stronger engine allows you to fly at a higher angle of attack (more drag) and still sustain the speed (lets ignore torque, stability and hanging on the prop issues - P38 assets).
Bozon
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Folks,
There has been a vigorous discussion of the new flight model with 2.07.
Excellent work MOSQ!
Your findings validate some of the recent discussions regarding the 109F and the Spitfire.
Good work!
(http://free.hostdepartment.com/g/gunzo/Sig.gif)
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Spit 1: Full Flaps 100 mph/ 51 seconds
Can you check that, I can't get the Mk1 below 53 seconds. Averaging closer to 53.5 over several tests.
I get similar results to you for the 5 and 8 but not the 1?
(http://free.hostdepartment.com/g/gunzo/Sig.gif)
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Gunzo and Bozon,
Thanks!
Gunzo, I just retested the Spit I. 52.5 secs W/O WEP, 51.1 with WEP.
Double check you had WEP on. One of the tricks to the testing is if it takes you too long when testing with No Flaps to get a good consistent test, then when you go to Full Flaps, your WEP time has run out so you have to re-up with a fresh plane.
If there's an Arena setting for adjusting the WEP like the Fuel Burn, I can't find it. Would have made my testing easier.
Also make sure you have Combat trim off. Adjust your elevator trim while turning to get a consistent, stable, turn. I found the typical best trim settings for 90% of the planes was with the elevators in neutral trim position.
Oh, and one other thing about my testing:
Your Mileage May Vary!
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I'd like to see a comparison of at least a couple planes under different fuel loads. Having the 1D under different loads is useful showing how it affects performance of an individual plane, but I think it'd be more useful to see how, say, the 1D with 50% fuel would compare to a N1K with 50%.
Although it's interesting that the F4U-1 with 25% fuel STILL slightly out-turns the 1D under the same, even though the F4U-1 carries slightly more gas with that loadout.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
I tested enough planes to determine that it typically made only a slight difference whether turning left or right. To test all planes in both directions would have taken more time than I was willing to devote! If you know a particular plane turns much better or worse left/right reply here and I'll test it to the right and add it's result to the list.
Just wondering if you tried out any of the 109s left vs right turn. Of all the planes, the 109 definitely seems to me to have a preference for left turning vs right, but that could just be my perception.
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F6F seems to be turning a bit poorly??
It should be able to turn very well with no flaps. More along the lines of a Spit IX
Surprising.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
F6F seems to be turning a bit poorly??
It should be able to turn very well with no flaps. More along the lines of a Spit IX
Surprising.
The F6F radius is only 16 ft wider than a Spit 9 now, that's pretty close. Pilot skill will decide that contest.
And with full flaps the F6F handily cuts inside, F6F radius 492 to the Spit 9 of 530.
The F6F actually does much better now vs the Spit 9 than before the 2.07 drag change. Look at Kweassa's test, the Spit 9 was way ahead of the F6F.
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Originally posted by MOSQ
Urchin,
I'm no AE, but I can say that the extra HP in the 16 helps it a lot vs the 5. HP is important, all the planes I tested do better with their WEP on than off. They fly slightly slower with WEP off, but turn worse.
I didn't post the speeds and times intentionally because the charts get too complicated, but here they are for the Spits:
Spit 1: No Flaps: 138 mph/44 sec; Full Flaps 100 mph/ 51 seconds
Spit 5 : 138 mph/ 47 seconds; 102mph / 55 sec
Spit 8: 163 mph / 45 seconds; 118 mph / 52 sec
Spit 9: 170 mph / 48 seconds; 124 mph / 55 sec
Spit 14: 169 mph / 48 seconds; 124mph / 56 sec
Spit 16: 159mph / 46 seconds; 112 mph / 53 sec
The time in seconds is for 3 circles. So as you can see if in three full circles the difference is only a second, you'd have to make a lot of circles to actually close or widen the gap. Pilot ability to hold a perfect stall turn would be much more important.
I also tested acceleration, at 500 ft. the Spit 16 and Spit 14 have almost identical acceleration times from 150 to 250 mph. (Spit 16 18.2 secs, Spit 14 18.0 secs).
I tried your method, but I left combat trim on as most players use it. Full flaps, 25% fuel, left turns: mph/time/turn rate in degrees per second/turn radius.
Spit1: 98 mph / 53.28 / 20.27 / 406 ft
SeafireII: 101 mph / 54.42 / 19.85 / 427 ft
Spit5: 100 mph / 51.58 / 20.94 / 401 ft
Spit8: 112 mph / 49.37 / 21.88 / 430 ft
Spit9: 111 mph / 51.72 / 20.88 / 447 ft
Spit14: 126 mph / 53.37 / 20.24 / 523 ft
Spit16: 111 mph / 49.84 / 21.67 / 431 ft
Bf 109F-4: 114 mph / 49.02 / 22.03/ 435 ft
F4U-1D: 97 mph / 54.10 / 19.96 / 409 ft
Ki-84: 118 mph / 48.22 / 22.39 / 443 ft
N1K2-J: 111 mph / 48.15 / 22.42 / 416 ft
With the exception of the SpitI, each turn radius is somewhat smaller than your numbers. This either indicates that combat trim has a positive effect and/or I was able to fly the planes a bit slower or tighter around the circle.
Note the turn rates. The Bf 109F-4 has a faster turn rate than any Spitfire, while its turn radius is only superior to the Spit9 and Spit14. However, the faster turn rate shows that in a sustained turn, it will eventually run around the circle and catch every Spitfire from behind. Once that occurs, it simply yo-yos and falls in behind for a shot. The Dhog turns insanely tight circles, but its lower turn rate and only average climb rate undermine it against the Spit16. Likewise, the 109F-4 makes short work of the Dhog in a lufberry, having a considerably faster rate of turn and better vertical performance.
I also found the Spit8 and Spit16 very closely matched. In a dogfight between the two, the Spit16's roll rate will give it the edge.
You should also note how formidable the Niki is, with the highest turn rate and a very small turn radius.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by MOSQ
The F6F actually does much better now vs the Spit 9 than before the 2.07 drag change. Look at Kweassa's test, the Spit 9 was way ahead of the F6F.
I agree. I flew the f6f a bit this tour in fighter town. It felt a little better than before. However, vs. spits, the real advantage the the ability to shed E quicker and get inside their circle. The spits far better turn rate (22 degrees per half turn for spit9, 45! degrees per half turn for spit8) and vertical performance mean hard time for the hellcat.
It is also slower than the spits 8,9,16 at almost all altitudes, but it is a fun and capable ride.
Bozon
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WW,
Thanks for posting your tests. It of course sent me back to the experimental test facility.
At first I couldn't match your numbers. I turned combat trim on, and it made my numbers worse.
Then I tried pulling the circles with the plane in full shake. In my testing before I had pulled until the plane just started to shake, then backed off a tiny till it stopped. I kept the plane right on the edge of starting to shake, then back off. I did this because HTC had posted in another thread when the new shake was added to the game that once the plane starts shaking, the plane is losing lift.
However that is not the case. By flying with the plane in full shake I was able to match or exceed all your posted numbers. Then I turned CT off again and did even better. For example my new Spit 5 test was 98 mph in 49.8 seconds.
I also watched the G-Meter and saw that in full shake the G's don't decrease until you pull past full shake and the plane really does lose lift.
I don't believe it will change the rank order since I tested all the planes with the same consistent way. Even if a few planes did better in the full shake test than others, I doubt it would change their overall rank by more than a plane or two.
I'm glad I've learned how to maximize my turn rate, I'm just not sure if it's worth going back and retesting al the planes if the rank order doesn't change. Maybe I'll test the top 15 of them and see if there are any rank changes....
Thanks again for your feedback.
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Mosq, I looked at several planes in both sorts of your list and noted they have different numbers listed for turn radius in the sorted-by-TR-ascending and sorted-by-name-alphabetically lists. Why is that?
culero
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Originally posted by MOSQ
WW,
Thanks for posting your tests. It of course sent me back to the experimental test facility.
At first I couldn't match your numbers. I turned combat trim on, and it made my numbers worse.
Then I tried pulling the circles with the plane in full shake. In my testing before I had pulled until the plane just started to shake, then backed off a tiny till it stopped. I kept the plane right on the edge of starting to shake, then back off. I did this because HTC had posted in another thread when the new shake was added to the game that once the plane starts shaking, the plane is losing lift.
However that is not the case. By flying with the plane in full shake I was able to match or exceed all your posted numbers. Then I turned CT off again and did even better. For example my new Spit 5 test was 98 mph in 49.8 seconds.
I also watched the G-Meter and saw that in full shake the G's don't decrease until you pull past full shake and the plane really does lose lift.
I don't believe it will change the rank order since I tested all the planes with the same consistent way. Even if a few planes did better in the full shake test than others, I doubt it would change their overall rank by more than a plane or two.
I'm glad I've learned how to maximize my turn rate, I'm just not sure if it's worth going back and retesting al the planes if the rank order doesn't change. Maybe I'll test the top 15 of them and see if there are any rank changes....
Thanks again for your feedback.
Generally, I will fly just about everything deep into stall buffet. Inasmuch as I spend a great deal of time in the TA, I have an enormous amount of stick time flying most fighters right to the edge and holding them there. Generally, one develops some "methods" to push a fighter beyond its limits long enough to change fortunes in a dogfight.
Based upon my testing and actual fighting, I believe that the N1K2-J is the best over-all dogfighter in the current plane-set, with the 109F-4 ranking in the top 5 (but lacking in firepower).
My regards,
Widewing
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No way, Ki-84 all the way.
Best knife fighter in the whole world :).
I dunno, I'll have to give the Niki another try I guess. I flew it the last couple tours in AH 1 and I'd tear stuff up in it, I loved that plane. When AH2 came out it felt like it had been nuetered, so I didn't fly it as much.
Maybe it is dominant again, we'll find out I guess. :)
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Would the Spit 14 turn better to the right than the left (because of the Griffon engine)?
Maybe that is why it had such a poor showing compared to the Spit 16.. it weighs the same but has more horsepower.. so shouldn't it turn better?
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Originally posted by Urchin
No way, Ki-84 all the way.
Best knife fighter in the whole world :).
I dunno, I'll have to give the Niki another try I guess. I flew it the last couple tours in AH 1 and I'd tear stuff up in it, I loved that plane. When AH2 came out it felt like it had been nuetered, so I didn't fly it as much.
Maybe it is dominant again, we'll find out I guess. :)
From what I've been able to determine, the Niki received a big boost in low speed performance while the Ki-84 took a significant hit. Prior to 2.07, the Ki-84 was superior at stall fighting, but that has changed with the update.
As it is now, the Ki-84 can barely match the 109F-4, flaps out and is at a slight disadvantage because the 109 can get its flaps out sooner (at higher speeds). It suffers the same disadvantage against the Niki, but the Niki is even better than the 109F-4, and those four cannon really up the ante.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by culero
Mosq, I looked at several planes in both sorts of your list and noted they have different numbers listed for turn radius in the sorted-by-TR-ascending and sorted-by-name-alphabetically lists. Why is that?
culero
Culero,
Thanks for catching that. The reason is I cut and pasted from an Excel spreadsheet. In between events I updated the the fractional formula for converting MPH to Feet/second then calculating the radius. I added a few extra decimal places to the formula.
I'll update the whole thing tonight and get it right. I guess that's why professional writers have an editor!
I'm also testing the first 15 planes to see if the rank order changes given WideWings testing.
Thanks Again,
Mosq
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WideWing and Urchin,
I'll test the Spit 14 and see if it does better to the right.
I agree with WideWing. I've flown the Ki-84 for over a year as my 95% time ride. I used to be able to full flaps slow turn with Spit 5's no problem if I survived long enough to get my flaps out. Niki's were a feeding frenzy. I don't think I'd lost a fight with a Niki in a year that was 1v1. Then shortly after the patch a Niki in a slow spiral up full flaps turn fight clearly kicked my prettythang. I was so astonished I PM'd the pilot with a hearty congratulations.
Now I know why he beat me, the Ki-84 took a huge hit in full flaps performance. I guess it makes sense, the Ki-84 and Niki weigh the same and have the same horsepower, but the Niki has a larger wing area.
Dang!
There's more to the new drag model than just turn rate and flaps. It's also affected acceleration times.
Not so much for the slow planes, there it's minor. But the planes capable of 340 + have been affected.
I'm at work now and have no access to my test data, but as I recall the F4U1C now takes 13 seconds longer to get from 300 to 350 than it it did before 2.07. The Tempest was affected but not as much.
When I get home and go through my data I'll post the significant changes I've seen in acceleration so far.
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Something seems askew with a 110C out-turning a Spit9.
But the obvious conclusion here is: Perk the Val!
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I've retested the top 26 turners in full shake mode. There were two major changes: The Spit 5 and the Niki moved way up. The rest pretty much remained the same. I'll have the complete list redone in a couple of days. :o
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"Would the Spit 14 turn better to the right than the left (because of the Griffon engine)?
Maybe that is why it had such a poor showing compared to the Spit 16.. it weighs the same but has more horsepower.. so shouldn't it turn better?"
The 14 was reported to turn equally to a Mk IX, - full span.
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I have revised the list. I tested all the planes in full shake buffet.
The Spit 5 moved up and the Jugs did a little better. The Yak 9 improved a bit.
I tested the 109F4, NIK2J, and F4U1-D at 25%, 50 % and 75% fuel loads. Also the Niki at 99%.
I took out the No Flaps test. It was interesting as an academic exercise, but had no real use in the game. After all, if you're in a full shake stall buffet, you'll be hitting the flaps, not shaking along with no flaps out.
And I also deleted the alphabetical list, at least for now. I was having trouble with Excel making it do what I wanted.
The Spit 14 turned the same to the left or right.
Mosq"s Revised Turn List (http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Mosqs_Revised_Sustained_Turn_List_v207_5-17-06.pdf)
Mosq/Hells Angels
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So is this list just for all around dogfighting, or overall turning??
I've read somewhere that the only WWII fighter that can out turn a Spitfire Mk.1a/b (Mk.1a is the one used in AH) was a KI 34 (pretty sure its this one)
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Originally posted by Nemeth
So is this list just for all around dogfighting, or overall turning??
I've read somewhere that the only WWII fighter that can out turn a Spitfire Mk.1a/b (Mk.1a is the one used in AH) was a KI 34 (pretty sure its this one)
Best sustained turn. Not best dogfighter. Trying to determine the best dogfighter is a totally subjective "test". It depends on pilot preference and is a source of constant debate on these boards.
For instance the Val (D3A) has the best turn radius and an excellent turn rate, but no one would call it a dogfighter.
Although I do have a couple of kills in the Val. But it's more of a Zen experience than a dogfight.:D
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I have to say that after many years playing AH this list has just totally changed my game tactics...................... ..
In an La7 I would never ...ever have considered it wise to stall fight a competently piloted P38 and yet according to the above (with only a slight initial advantage) its very doable.............. and it turns out to be true.
I had never put much faith in (non fowler) flaps as turning aids ... I was wrong.
However now my JS program is modified and the thumb slider is banded such that flaps can be notched down/up one step at a time or simply auto lowered as my speed drops ...and of course they auto raise as my speed increases............... my La7flaps are total "fly by wire".
I have removed trim controls from my thumb wheels and returned to using the auto trim work around by simply switching CT on/off.......more "fly by wire" I may even program the CT toggle button to become a "retrim" button. I mean its such a pain having to press the damn thing twice!
btw please leave the flap/no flap comparison in......it was really useful to see the trun rate gain and how it shunts stuff about. e.g I now find my self looking at my opponent to see if he has flaps down or not...this clues me for stuff
a) he is making a mistake
b) he is faster than i thought
c) he is about to try to run for it
d) right now I am turning better/worse than he is
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Tilt,
Thanks for the feedback, I'm glad you've found it helpful.
Per your request I've combined the No Flaps with the Full Flaps list.
Click Here:
Mosq's Revised Sustained Turn List (http://home.comcast.net/~hudcomp/AHII/Mosqs_Revised_Sustained_Turn_List_5-20-06.pdf)
I think there's a minor typo or two in it I need to fix, but this is good for now.
I'll probably redo it with an alphabetical sort in a week or two.
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It's interesting stuff. Made me rethink my use of certain planes once I saw how bad they turned.
Was surprised that the Yak gains less from flaps than the La's. And that the La-7 slightly out-turns the La-7. I expected the other way around.
I'm a little suspect of how easy these planes are to fly at 90mph with flaps down full and banked over 80+ degrees.
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Yer thinkin' that it might be tough to hold a ~6g level turn at 90mph and full flaps?
;)
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Originally posted by Urchin
Would the Spit 14 turn better to the right than the left (because of the Griffon engine)?
Maybe that is why it had such a poor showing compared to the Spit 16.. it weighs the same but has more horsepower.. so shouldn't it turn better?
Think Spit LFIXe when you say 16 Urchin. That's what it is, only with an American built Packard Merlin. 16 was not a follow up to the 14.
The XIV would not out turn a lighter Spit. Consider they thought about changing the name of the Griffon Spits because they were in essence different birds. The Spit XIV relied much more on speed, climb etc.
Spit V should out turn a Spit XVI low and slow too. It's that much lighter with that much less wing loading plus the full span wing. It's probably why the slightly heavier 8 with a full span wing, can hang with the XVI with the clipped wing. Both have the same engine.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Was surprised that the Yak gains less from flaps than the La's.
Me too (but then Yak flaps are some what smaller than La flaps)
I think we have found an arguement for the Yak3 (250kg lighter than the 9U)........... which could sustain turn 360 in 21 secs fully loaded in "clean condition".
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Originally posted by Toad
Yer thinkin' that it might be tough to hold a ~6g level turn at 90mph and full flaps?
;)
Yeah ... maybe after the first 2 or 3 minutes of going around in circles ...
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Originally posted by Tilt
Me too (but then Yak flaps are some what smaller than La flaps)
I think we have found an arguement for the Yak3 (250kg lighter than the 9U)........... which could sustain turn 360 in 21 secs fully loaded in "clean condition".
Yeah ... a Yak-3 with the 107 engine would be serious fun ... it'd be worth learning to aim those meager guns to fly it.
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Humm... ive read your new list... looks good... cept for the spit mk.1 (prob knew i was gonna say that) , ive been flying it along time now... i haven't been out turned by any plane... but there was 1 time and 1 time onlt that ive had a a6m2 turn with me... untill someone (my prnts) destracted me :-(
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Yeah ... a Yak-3 with the 107 engine would be serious fun ... it'd be worth learning to aim those meager guns to fly it.
Yak-3 with the VK-107 didn't enter service until after the war was over. The WWII Yak-3 was powered by a VK-105.
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Was surprised that the Yak gains less from flaps than the La's. And that the La-7 slightly out-turns the La-7. I expected the other way around.
.
I think you meant you were surprised the La-7 out turns the La-5.
Me too. The La-5 has the reputation of being the more highly manueverable plane.
But if you look at the HTC plane stats pages, the La-7 is lighter, has more power,and they have the exact same wing area.
So it makes sense it turns beter, even if the difference is only very slight.
The rep might come from the La- 7 having a stronger tendency to jump into a spin when on the edge because of the extra power.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Yak-3 with the VK-107 didn't enter service until after the war was over. The WWII Yak-3 was powered by a VK-105.
Oh well ... the VK-105 ain't bad either ... climbs to 15K in 4 minutes (5min for the 9U) ... looks about the same top end as the 9U, but it must accelerate like crazy.
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I would like this file but the link to the .pdf seems to be dead.
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Originally posted by Skeld
I would like this file but the link to the .pdf seems to be dead.
Same for me
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I have a copy on my machine and moved it to the AT&T server. It dates back to when the P-38s had a high drag flap problem.
You can get it here. (http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/Mosqs_Revised_Sustained_Turn_List_v207_5-17-06.pdf)
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks WW
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Thanks much Widewing :aok