Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Phtom on May 15, 2006, 11:23:32 AM
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I don't fly the 262 much..always break the wings off lol. But I remember recently someone in the MA telling me how great of a bird it was..I agreed. I did point out though that it had little effect in the war because it had trouble landing, staying airworthy after a few sorties, and that by the time it was really used the Germans did not have the parts readily available to keep them up. The guy disagreed saying that it did all kinds of damage. Found this write up on Warbird Alley:
"There were 1,433 Me 262s built, with nearly 500 more destroyed by bombing raids before they were completed. Of that total, fewer than 300 were actually used in combat.
In its brightest moments, when it was used as intended, the Me 262 was the equivalent of sending the "Three Musketeers" against Sitting Bull at Little Big Horn. In one battle, for instance, 37 of the 262s were scrambled against an Allied raid that consisted of 1,221 bombers and 632 fighter escorts! In their most effective performance, they cost the Allies a one percent loss."
We might as well get the Meteor too, it was in the war 43-44 attacking V1 and V2 rockets and anything else that was in the air across the channel.
:aok
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V2 was uninterceptable.
But the Meteors did indeed go on CAP's and hunt V-1's. They just didn't run into any LW aircraft. Well, there hardly were any around.
Makes one wonder, - how many hours on combat missions did the Meteors log compared to the 262's??????????????
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That I'm not sure of. I do know they continued with the Meteor after the war..as the 262 continued I guess.
Would make for a fun dogfight though wouldn't it ;)
I don't think either one was early enough in the war to make a great impact..not that they weren't great planes.
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It was the best interceptor of its kind in 1945, by nature of its performance, and that is not disputed seriously by any student of WW2 history.
It had the same problems associated to all the LW combat a/c of 1945 (Bf 109, Fw 190, ect); problems with deliveries of spare parts, fuel, replacement pilots, and other infrastructure needed to sustain a modern air force in the field, that was not the fault of the Me 262 design. It arrived during the last year of the war in Europe.
As far as "causing a one percent loss on its best day" thats a silly claim, because it takes a small # of fighters and compares it to the overall side it intercepted, and tries to make it sound insignificant. Its a gross over generalisation. How many a/c did the Russians, RAF and USAAF have up that day? should we compare them to all that? its nonsensical.
You would not have wanted to be the bomber group who got intercepted by them, 262s caused a lot of consternation amongst bomber crews, and for good reason, the defensive weapons on bombers of the day were of little use against a fast moving jet fighter.
As far as being hard to land, I have never seen that written anywhere about it. Its engines did require a lot of maintenance, thats true.
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I am not sure what "myth" you are referring to. Sure, there were small numbers relative to other fighters/interceptors. Due to the disintegration of record keeping late in the war for the LW, the exact number of kills registered by 262s are in dispute, but many sources put the number above 500. That seems fairly significant to me given its limited use.
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CC
That's why I said many times..I agreed it was a good plane, my point was that its true effectiveness was never really utilized due to how late in the war it became operational, how the LW had trouble organizing parts and properly trained mechanics for it. And maybe because it was up against so many planes..it was too little too late.
The point about takeoff and landing was from something I read that because of the longer runways needed for takeoff speed and for landing it made the 262 vulnerable. It got to a point where they would scramble planes over so the planes could get up and down without a RL vulch situation. Many 262's and their supplies were torn up on the ground, and on their landing.
Don't get me wrong it was a great plane, as was the meteor (and at the end of the war the F7 which did not get sent in time for combat). I was just pointing out its limited effectiveness. That's all.
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Originally posted by Angus
V2 was uninterceptable.
now ive heard that spits used to dive on them from high alt to killem
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Dove on the V1, not the V2
V1
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/V-1.jpg)
V2
(http://aia.lackland.af.mil/homepages/pa/spokesman/Nov04/Web%20Photos/German-V2-rocket.gif)
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I think you're confusing the V-1 with the V-2. V-1 was like a ramjet/rocket powered glide bomb (think early cruise missile) V-2 was a large rocket, a kind of early balistic missile
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Where I found the info on the meteor against the V1 was here:
http://www.warbirdalley.com/meteor.htm
It credits them with V1 kills but not any V2 kills.
:aok
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Originally posted by Mathman
Dove on the V1, not the V2
V1
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/41/V-1.jpg)
V2
(http://aia.lackland.af.mil/homepages/pa/spokesman/Nov04/Web%20Photos/German-V2-rocket.gif)
i did.....
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if the allies had needed the Meteor, it was there ready. It was used in combat, but very cautiously because the Spits, Tempests, Typhoons, Mustangs of the 2nd TAF were doing the job fine without the Meteor. It was not worth the risk then in case it fell into enemy hands.
It is like today, why would you do a job with an untested F22 when a F-16 can do the job?
The Meteor was needed for testing (a luxury the LW didnt have) and to combat the V-1's.
If the Allies had been in the German position, obviously the Meteor would have seen a lot more action... probably the RAF could have rushed other types into production too had it been deemed necessary (such as the DeHavilland Vampire which first flew in 1943).
(http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/vampire.jpg)
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Nice looking plane there. :)
Looks like a jet version of a P38 or F7
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If someone has the Classic JV44 book they can look up the day when the 262 used the R4M missiles. Destroyed bombers was in the double digits. Not much in the overall picture, though.
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In A. Price's Book "The last Year of the LW" it was quoted that by the last couple of months the bulk of LW sorties were being taken care of by the Jet squadrons since the Jet fuel was much more readily available than the Gasoline that was needed to fuel most of the other LW conventional aircraft.
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Originally posted by Furball
If the Allies had been in the German position, obviously the Meteor would have seen a lot more action... probably the RAF could have rushed other types into production too had it been deemed necessary (such as the DeHavilland Vampire which first flew in 1943).
(http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/imgs/vampire.jpg)
I've flown in one of these! Nearly got killed, but it was a neat 30 mniute flight. When I have more time, I'll elaborate on why retired bank VPs shouldnt buy warbirds and invite Civil Air Patrol pilots for a joy ride. Essssh!
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That sounds like a good story, please do elaborate when to opportunity arrises.
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Super abbreviated version of a longer story...
I was asked to fly the new Civil Air Patrol C-172 to an airshow. Cadets were gonna hand out fliers and the usual PR stuff. While Im walking around the flight line, which is all WW1 and WW2 stuff, I see one jet. Vampire, Australian AF markings. Cool plane, pilot is an older guy, strike up a conversation and compliment him on his plane. I jest that too bad its a one seater, Id love a ride. He points out that its a side-by-side two seater...and if Id like, I can ride with him in the airshow. He's been OK'd to make a few passes over the crowd. Sweet!
Come show time, he finds me in the crowd and leads me to the jet. Shows me around as we preflight it. Hell, I didnt know this thing was partially made of wood. Its a really hot day so we climb in and start straping in. I notice all sorts of placards and "DO NOT" yada yada....avoid this RPM, that RPM, etc.
So Im sitting there, fat dumb and happy....in my first fighter jet. Air conditioning doesnt work, Im sweating like Im in a sauna...but hey, im in a jet! We taxi to the end of the runway, which is only about 6000 ft long (i think, Id have to look it up in my AOPA book).
We rev it up and start rolling. Weeee! Boy, we're rolling an awful long way...density altitude must be up there. We get into the air a foot or two...ground effect...and he pulls the gear handle. About 2 seconds later, THUD SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Yup, we're sliding on the pavement, wingtips flailing on the runway...doing some unGodly speed. I look at the pilot and he doesnt exactly give me that "No Problem" look. I see the tree line coming and I remember strapping myself onto this ejection seat thingy. And I also wonder what the hell kinda ejection seats they had in 1946....and I also notice that the plexiglass cockpit is really really thcnk. Oh well, so I get shot thru that...I didnt wanna be in the NBA anyways!
So I yank on the handles and they break off. For what seemed like eternity...Im literally waiting for my butt to but shot into who-knows-what...the pilot goes "Oh, those dont do anything. Hang on". He gets the airplane into the air and the gear snaps shut...in the ugliest crackling sound Ive ever heard.
Now the real question is...is the gear toast? Will it extend? And WOW that's a massive cloud of dust, smoke and debris we left on the runway.
The radio is just blaring with activity. Those FAA guys who were walking around the show with clipboards are surely writing War & Peace about what they just witnessed.
We level off and the FAA tells us to make a slow pass over the field with gear out. Guys in binoculars look and say the gear looks OK. Great, can you find my WITS while your at it??
So since we're up here, they tell us to go ahead and make our passes. Finally, something COOL. We buzz the field at 500ft and he makes a nice pass, then off into the vertical. Weee! Then he levels and lets me make the next pass. Oooooey. Yes, there was LOTS of machine gun soundeffects and Iron Eagle movie quotes coming outta my mouth LOL. And then he took over.
So as we slow up to land, my lovely host has the jet's RPMs sitting on ALL THOSE BAD AREAS THE PLACARDS SAID WERE BAD! Ugh! And as he slows up, he comments how "squirley" the aircraft is behaving. Cripes...and I cant kill him til we land...unless he beats me to it. Aiie
We land (very very long) and I see the wonderful skid we left on the runway. As soon as we taxi to the parking area and pwer down, we're mobbed with FAA types and the questions fly. My best friend, a KC-135 driver, shames me and tells me how terrible it looked from the ground...and that I couldve been killed. He told me I was an idiot not to punch out...and I hand him the ejection handles. Dude, I sooo tried. The FAA asks me a few questions about my ride and my KC-135 friend manages to get me away from em.
Before we left, I took a really long look at the aircraft once the hub-bub had calmed down. Man, the wingtips were really clawed up...the belly....eeesh....and the nubs under each tail were pretty well mauled as well.
Man, I got really lucky. It couldve been a lot lot worse
From what I heard later....
1) The guy had 27 hours in the aircraft. He had 1000 hours in C-182s. That's it.
2) He lost his ticket for quite some time after
3) He called me a year later asking if I was interested in buying the plane for $60,000. Umm, I declined.
Wish I had it on video...My 135 friend loves telling that story.
So....always ask to see a logbook! If they say no and wont take you...well, dont be sad!
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dont be so down on 182s, thats a pretty hot plane.
its "high performance"
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Originally posted by LePaul
He told me I was an idiot not to punch out...and I hand him the ejection handles.
That is about the best punch line I have heard in ages!:lol :rofl :lol
Sometimes the only difference between comedy and tragedy is if no one gets killed. Glad we can laugh at this one!
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Originally posted by LePaul
....So I yank on the handles and they break off. For what seemed like eternity...Im literally waiting for my butt to but shot into who-knows-what...the pilot goes "Oh, those dont do anything. Hang on". ...
He told me I was an idiot not to punch out...and I hand him the ejection handles. Dude, I sooo tried.
:rofl :rofl I'm glad you were able to tell the story, thats some funny stuff.
I kept expecting to read that when the plane landed and was taxiing the ejection seat fired
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I'd have to ask Eagl or Gunslingr what they used in the old days...but whatever it was, they were removed. Larry (the 135 pilot) thinks it was a huge gunpwder charge or something (yikes!)
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Good story!!
The Vampire was a nice plane but very fragile. The nosewheel was prone to collapse....
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)
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In the fifties a Finnish air force pilot did his first solo flight with the Vampire. The flight went fine but after landing the plane stopped to the end of the runway and despite the pilot increased the throttle, the plane just stood there. So he radioded to the tower about the problem and couple mechanics took a lorry and drove to the plane. The lorry stopped beside the Vampire and the mechanics jumped down. At this point the pilot realized that the mechanics were looking down to him (he had landed landing gear in...).
gripen
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Ehhhh LePaul:
"I've flown in one of these! Nearly got killed, but it was a neat 30 mniute flight. When I have more time, I'll elaborate on why retired bank VPs shouldnt buy warbirds and invite Civil Air Patrol pilots for a joy ride. Essssh!"
Please tell more!!!!! I've seen a Vampire formation flying at Farnborough with a single Meteor in the formation (The Meteor was the only one doing aerobatics, and did well, slow and lazily).
All ears about the Vampire.
AFAIK it was the first jet to cross the Atlantic, - in 1948.