Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Brenjen on May 16, 2006, 04:36:23 PM

Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Brenjen on May 16, 2006, 04:36:23 PM
...see President Bush's immigration speech as racist??:huh

 I see where someone in another thread says they think it is, maybe that's why the Americans & several un-named European countries can't see eye to eye. I'm so sick of liberals & socialists I could puke.

 I'll be so glad when all the hollyweird folks who claimed they would leave the United States & move to France if George Bush won, do just that. Apparently they'll all get along just dandy.

 I have a friend in Malta & one from South Africa & they are cool as they can be, the South African dude is really cool. I think at some point in time I might visit South Africa. Me thinks I'll skip the germany & france part of the tour. Where's that boycott when you want to use it? I want my Freedom Toast & Curly Fries!

 Don't get me wrong; I don't hate france or germany. I have a feeling we are going to need each other in a big way in the near future. I just think we should have left france in the hands of the vichy. At least then I could understand why they dislike us so much.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: GtoRA2 on May 16, 2006, 05:00:07 PM
Here it is in a nut shell.


Europe+nationalism=WW1.

Europe+nationalism+Nazism=WW2

WW2=Europe in Ruins


Now it seems in many minds over there (if this board is any judge)

Nationalism=Nazism or fascism etc.



I don't agree,  you can be nationalist and not a Nazi racist.

I am a unapologetic Nationalist, in my mind the US and its people come before all others because that’s what our people and tax dollars should care about first. (as it should be for the UK or Germany or Franc etc)

That does not mean I want to cook jews in ovens
That does not mean I think the white race is better
That does not mean I think the US should impose her will on other nations.
That does not mean I think the US should invade nations without being attacked first.

It means I love my country above all others, and want my country to put its people above all others, no mater where they came from in the first place.

It also means I think this nation is still the greatest on the planet.

2 entries found for Nationalism.
na•tion•al•ism      P   Pronunciation Key  (n sh  -n -l z  m, n sh n -)
n.
1.   Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2.   The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3.   Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

 
I see nothing evil in any of the above entries.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Hangtime on May 16, 2006, 05:57:22 PM
I was just thinking the woman that wrote that definition was a pinko. ;)
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Debonair on May 17, 2006, 12:22:59 AM
it was racist because it implies that white guys are all pansies
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: DiabloTX on May 17, 2006, 01:38:17 AM
I still find it funny that Cinco de Mayo is shoved down our throats.  You think they celebrate the 4th of July in Mexico?
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: asilvia on May 17, 2006, 02:48:33 AM
Cinco-de-Mayo is just another way to drink beer without the wife ack complaining......"but dear its a nationional holiday...in Mexico"

TY Mexico!!! Wooohooo
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: beet1e on May 17, 2006, 10:00:11 AM
Someone needs to explain to GTO the difference between patriotism and nationalism, and maybe buy him a better dictionary. I can't do it because I'm on his ignore list, though I know he has a peekaboo from time to time! ;)

The Oxford Dictionary defines patriot as "a person who strongly supports their country and is prepared to defend it". Patriotism is of course the noun.

Nationalism is defined as "patriotism, often to an excessive degree"

When someone believes their country is greater than all others, where "greatness" does not relate to geographical size, this is tending towards an excess of patriotism, ie. Nationalism. This unhealthy form of patriotic fervour occurred in Nazi Germany in the late 1930s. At that time, the German national anthem was sung to the words of "Deutchland, Deutchland, über alles. Uber alles in der welt!". Translated into English, this means "Germany, above all others in the world!".  In addition to the language lesson, I take it that no history lesson is needed to inform the reader of how this ended up.

I am informed by someone was living in Germany c1990 that it is now illegal to sing the German national anthem to those words.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Brenjen on May 17, 2006, 10:21:45 AM
My buddy in Malta has some choice definitions of Germans, I won't post them here. He also speaks the language & several others too I might add, & he has heard them say some stuff while having a conversation in english; all the while they're thinking he can't understand german.

 I have also had conversations with a german woman I knew from a website & WOW. It was like we were from two different planets, she was nice but...well I'll leave it at that. The views & beliefs they have going on across the pond makes our liberals seem normal.

 I have never had the opportunity to discuss the general state of being alive on this planet with a french citizen, I have to admit, seeing the damage some nice french lads did to the war cemetary in normandy & reading "English, come & dig up your trash" painted on the memorials really put me off. It might not have put a burr under my saddle had I not seen the police & the average joe onlookers laughing about it.

 It reminded me of then pres. clintons trip to normandy where he kicked over a small american flag on a grave so he could get a photo op. of himself straightening it & saluting...the photographer was just nice enough to snap the whole series instead of just the one with his lip poking out looking sad. People should have pride in their country. You can be proud & not stoop to genocide even if you are proud to the point of "nationalism".
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: mora on May 17, 2006, 10:48:09 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Brenjen
It was like we were from two different planets, she was nice but...well I'll leave it at that. The views & beliefs they have going on across the pond makes our liberals seem normal.

I think I know what you mean, but they are not liberals. Americans seem to have an entirly own definition for a "liberal". Just call them leftist like everyone else.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 17, 2006, 10:55:52 AM
Beet....he got that definition from the NRA web-site methinks. ;)
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Brenjen on May 17, 2006, 07:34:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mora
I think I know what you mean, but they are not liberals. Americans seem to have an entirly own definition for a "liberal". Just call them leftist like everyone else.


 Yeah our definition of liberal is at least two-fold; there is a meaning for fiscal liberalism & cultural/social/ideological liberalism. Take Barbara streisand for instance, she's insane. Then take the democratic political platform & that's our definition of liberal.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: beet1e on May 17, 2006, 07:50:09 PM
LOL Curval! :lol
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Holden McGroin on May 17, 2006, 08:04:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
This unhealthy form of patriotic fervour occurred in Nazi Germany in the late 1930s. At that time, the German national anthem was sung to the words of "Deutchland, Deutchland, über alles. Uber alles in der welt!". Translated into English, this means "Germany, above all others in the world!".  In addition to the language lesson, I take it that no history lesson is needed to inform the reader of how this ended up.


So when one sings about Britannia ruling the waves, it's okay because it's a celebration of the domination of only 70% of the Earths surface, where the Nazis sang of total domination.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 05:55:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So when one sings about Britannia ruling the waves, it's okay because it's a celebration of the domination of only 70% of the Earths surface, where the Nazis sang of total domination.


It isn't a celebratory song about dominion at all, its about having a kick arsed navy that DEFENDS against tyranny:

When Britain first at Heav'n's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain;
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
The nations not so blest as thee,
Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all.
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
Still more majestic shalt thou rise,
More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies,
Serves but to root thy native oak.
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame,
All their attempts to bend thee down
Will but arouse thy generous flame;
But work their woe, and thy renown.
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
To thee belongs the rural reign;
Thy cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject main,
And every shore it circles thine.
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
The Muses, still with freedom found,
Shall to thy happy coast repair;
Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crowned,
And manly hearts to guide the fair.
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Saintaw on May 18, 2006, 06:29:35 AM
So, by the action of a few *****heads that turnedup graves ... all the french are guilty.

My landlord is Italian, and is a banana... hence, all italians are bananas. i see...
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: straffo on May 18, 2006, 06:51:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Brenjen
I have never had the opportunity to discuss the general state of being alive on this planet with a french citizen, I have to admit, seeing the damage some nice french lads did to the war cemetary in normandy & reading "English, come & dig up your trash" painted on the memorials really put me off. It might not have put a burr under my saddle had I not seen the police & the average joe onlookers laughing about it.


Do you know we have a  "graveyard vandalism" course at school ?
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Hap on May 18, 2006, 07:02:10 AM
many folks don't have a right mind.  see the poll  on using nuclear weapons in the middle east.

hap
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: storch on May 18, 2006, 07:52:25 AM
well it's about time....another bash thread.  goody, I'll keep a close watch on the board today.  my cousin is in from belgium again she brought another case of beer with her and also a friend.  saw, if all italians are bananas and this girl has a beard then..............:D
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: SOB on May 18, 2006, 09:03:52 AM
GEORGE BOOSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT BLACK, ERR MEXICAN PEOPLE!!!

AMERICAN NATIONALISTS ARE NAZIS!!!

CINCO DE MAYO IS A PLOT BY EVIL MEXICANS TO GET US DRUNK AND HAPPY!!! THOSE BASTARDS!!!

FRENCHIES HATE DEAD AMERICANS AND GRAVESTONES AND THEY REALLY REALLY HATE THESE CANS!!!  STAY AWAY FROM THESE CANS!!!

banana IS ITALIAN!!!  WHERE THE HELL DID banana GET TO???

BELGIANS ARE JUST FRENCHIES WITH CHOCOLATE!!!
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Saintaw on May 18, 2006, 09:10:35 AM
TOB, slowly step back from the coffee machine.. have a choklit instead!
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Holden McGroin on May 18, 2006, 09:24:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
It isn't a celebratory song about dominion at all, its about having a kick arsed navy that DEFENDS against tyranny:


So the words "Britannia rules the waves" has no parallell at all with "Deutchland uber alles"

One has to do with being superior so that the nation can defend itself...  

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt,
Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze

Germany, Germany above all
Above everything in the world
When, always, for protection and defense
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: straffo on May 18, 2006, 09:43:24 AM
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
FRENCHIES ATE DEAD AMERICANS AND GRAVESTONES AND THEY REALLY REALLY HATE THESE CANS!!!  STAY AWAY FROM THESE CANS!!!


Had to correct a typo :huh

(http://www.whytraveltofrance.com/images/stories/pictures/sandwichamericain.jpg)

Linky (http://www.whytraveltofrance.com/?p=118)
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 09:58:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So the words "Britannia rules the waves" has no parallell at all with "Deutchland uber alles"

One has to do with being superior so that the nation can defend itself...  

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt,
Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze

Germany, Germany above all
Above everything in the world
When, always, for protection and defense


Well, lets see.

If you put it into context, Germany embarked on a war of conquest in the late 30s.  They rolled up the whole of Europe but then were stopped, primarily due to Britain "ruling the waves".

As Beet1e points out it is now illegal to sing the German National Anthem in the way it was sung in the 1930s....no such law exists in Britain.

So...your parallell is a bit off.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Holden McGroin on May 18, 2006, 11:18:30 AM
Each song has nationalism, speaks of defense, and of dominion.  The songs are similar in attitude so the parallel is astonishingly close.

I was just comparing the songs, but if you wish to extend the parallel to national behavior, the British just started their conquest a few centuries earlier. Britains ability to rule the waves also allowed for the domination of indiginous people worldwide, the establishment of the African Slave trade, the importation of opium to China, ... I'm sure I can come up with some other unsavory things.

Every country has it's skeleton closet.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 12:34:46 PM
Oh really?  Your whole purpose in posting your first reply to Beet1e was all about the song...no jab at him or the UK regarding Britain's "celebration" of dominance.  It was just about song lyrics.  Rrrrright.

You should at least get your facts straight about Britain's role in the slave trade.  It was in fact established long before great Britain ever became involved by the Arabs...commonly known as the Trans Saharan slave trade.  The Atlantic slave trade was established by the Portugese, but was later dominated by Great Britain as they controlled the seas.  It was also destroyed by Great Britain's navy after slavery was outlawed.

You are right though...every country has its skeletons.  The US, for example, hasn't exactly got a stellar record for its treatment of the Native Indians.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Bronk on May 18, 2006, 12:41:07 PM
Curval tell it to the Zulu. I believe the Brits were the invader there.
That wasn't even in the same hemisphere . What business did they have there?



Bronk

Edit: Not trying to start a pissing contest. I have nothing against the Brits but It wasn't called the British "EMPIRE" for nothing. They didn't get it or hold on to it by being nice.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: indy007 on May 18, 2006, 12:45:06 PM
since people keep talking about the songs...

wasn't Yankee Doodle a brit song about an American dressing very ... uh... effeminately?

Euro nationalist songs talk about taking over the world, defending seas, honoring their country...

ours talks about dressing in drag.

nice.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 18, 2006, 01:35:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
I still find it funny that Cinco de Mayo is shoved down our throats.  You think they celebrate the 4th of July in Mexico?



Ahh...ignorance is bliss...


Cinco de Mayo is not a national holiday in Mexico, never was. Just like the Battle of Bunker Hill is not a national holiday in the US, just a footmarked day on the calender.  Cinco de Mayo is a US creation by the alchohol companies to sell more booze, just like St. Paddy's Day is.


ack-ack
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 18, 2006, 01:38:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by mora
I think I know what you mean, but they are not liberals. Americans seem to have an entirly own definition for a "liberal". Just call them leftist like everyone else.



What's funny is that for a time "classic liberal" was used to refer to first the Whigs and then later the Republican party.   The term took on a new meaning during FDR's administration.


ack-ack
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Holden McGroin on May 18, 2006, 03:03:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
but was later dominated by Great Britain as they controlled the seas.


So you agree with me on periferal subjects of this thread. Thank you.
 
Even though you doubt it, my original point was to pick a British Nationalist song because the Beet1e, being a british national, brought up the german song.  I doubt that if I had chosen a nationalistic song of Thailand it would have made my point better.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 03:10:15 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Curval tell it to the Zulu. I believe the Brits were the invader there.
That wasn't even in the same hemisphere . What business did they have there?



Bronk

Edit: Not trying to start a pissing contest. I have nothing against the Brits but It wasn't called the British "EMPIRE" for nothing. They didn't get it or hold on to it by being nice.


Every single western country of any significance during that time in world history was trying to expand their EMPIRES.

Fact is even you guys only seem to remember Britian's Empire because they were simply the best at it, mostly because their navy kicked booty all over the globe.

What business did they have there?  BUSINESS.  Money, moola, gold man!!!  Same reason the Dutch went there...the same reason the Belgians were in Rwanda and the Congo , the French were there too..etc etc etc.  Don't you read any history?
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: storch on May 18, 2006, 03:26:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Ahh...ignorance is bliss...


Cinco de Mayo is not a national holiday in Mexico, never was. Just like the Battle of Bunker Hill is not a national holiday in the US, just a footmarked day on the calender.  Cinco de Mayo is a US creation by the alchohol companies to sell more booze, just like St. Paddy's Day is.


ack-ack
that would be one beer importer namely gambrinus importers, the people who bring you that weak corona all the metrosexuals prefer.  It was a brilliant advertising campaign.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 18, 2006, 03:46:51 PM
Yep, was sheer marketing genius to sell what is otherwise crappy beer.



ack-ack
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Bronk on May 18, 2006, 03:50:33 PM
[Every single western country of any significance during that time in world history was trying to expand their EMPIRES

Fact is even you guys only seem to remember Britian's Empire because they were simply the best at it, mostly because their navy kicked booty all over the globe.

What business did they have there?  BUSINESS.  Money, moola, gold man!!!  Same reason the Dutch went there...the same reason the Belgians were in Rwanda and the Congo , the French were there too..etc etc etc.  Don't you read any history





So when everyone else does it it's OK. Thanks.. I'll remember that.

Nope, I only brought up the Brit thing cause you seem to want to point fingers at the US.

Ya I read history . So can i now say that the these early Europeans were no better than the nazis? They were after the same thing land, treasure, natural resources. They , just like early EMPIRES attacked weaker countries.

It is interesting that you find British empire building OK . Just don't let anyone else try it though.

Bronk
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Airscrew on May 18, 2006, 04:01:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Beet....he got that definition from the NRA web-site methinks. ;)


Webster's
na·tion·al·ism    Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

Nationalism
n 1: love of country and willingness to sacrifice for it [syn: patriotism] 2: the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other [ant: multiculturalism, internationalism] 3: the aspiration for national independence felt by people under foreign domination 4: the doctrine that nations should act independently (rather than collectively) to attain their goals [ant: internationalism]

Main Entry:   chauvinism
Part of Speech:   noun
Definition:   devotion
Synonyms:   bellicism, fanatical patriotism, jingoism, Nationalism
Antonyms:   broad-mindedness, impartiality, liberality, objectivity
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 04:03:30 PM
You need some historical context there Bronk.

I made one point to Holden about the US (who was pointing the finger at Britain for abuse of indigenous peoples) by mentioning the US treatment of Native Indians.  Now your panties are in a bunch because I am somehow attacking the US.  lol  So defensive.

...and by the by

The only reason the US wasn't out Empire building "back in the day" is because...well...there wasn't a country called the United States of America at that time.

Toodles.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 18, 2006, 04:09:21 PM
We had a quasi-empire after the Spanish-American War when we took possession of quite a few Spanish colonies and territories like Guam, Philippines, Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc...



ack-ack
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Airscrew on May 18, 2006, 04:09:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
The only reason the US wasn't out Empire building "back in the day" is because...well...there wasn't a country called the United States of America at that time.
Toodles.

Actually by time we were ready to build an Empire most of the good properties had already been taken.   We did manage to get Hawaii, the Phillipines, and Puerto Rico though
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 04:14:36 PM
Fair points ack ack and Airscrew.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 18, 2006, 05:13:08 PM
actually my posts was kind of aimed at those whining about the "brutality" of the British Empire.  I guess they missed the history class when they talked about how we "pacified" the Moros in the Philippines.



ack-ack
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Brenjen on May 18, 2006, 06:46:14 PM
Quote
So, by the action of a few *****heads that turnedup graves ... all the french are guilty.


 Well Saintaw, read the ENTIRE post next time instead of selectively inserting words into my mouth through insinuation.

 I said; "It might not have put a burr under my saddle had I not seen
the police & the average joe onlookers laughing about it."

 If it were just the pieces of dung that wrote it & the people they talked to about it & that were loitering about weren't snickering about it I wouldn't have taken so much offense. I saw some French citizens who were alive when those men were killed & now have their country back because of their sacrifice, interviewed; & they were vocal about their displeasure & not one of them were laughing about it.

 I think the United States & Great Britain should have demanded the people responsible be extradited & tried in our courts. Those graveyards are supposed to be sovereign U.S. & British soil & therefore those criminals are subject to our laws.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Airscrew on May 18, 2006, 06:58:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Fair points ack ack and Airscrew.


:aok Ack-Ack.  My point was more to head off those that may have forgotten from history class that the US did practice Imperialism in a manner of speaking
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: DiabloTX on May 18, 2006, 07:04:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Ahh...ignorance is bliss...


Cinco de Mayo is not a national holiday in Mexico, never was. Just like the Battle of Bunker Hill is not a national holiday in the US, just a footmarked day on the calender.  Cinco de Mayo is a US creation by the alchohol companies to sell more booze, just like St. Paddy's Day is.


ack-ack


Yeah, you're right, ignorance is bliss.  I forgot about all of the beer company sponsored parades and classes taught in our schools about the "historical" significance of the 5th of May to the United States of America for an event that happened in the country of Mexico that had absolutely nothing to do with the U.S.  

Besides, you know as well as I know that just about everyone in this country or in Mexico doesn't need an excuse to guzzle beer.  But I'll buy the "beer company's did it" excuse because, well, it's an excuse to go drink a beer.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Ack-Ack on May 18, 2006, 07:14:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Yeah, you're right, ignorance is bliss.  I forgot about all of the beer company sponsored parades and classes taught in our schools about the "historical" significance of the 5th of May to the United States of America for an event that happened in the country of Mexico that had absolutely nothing to do with the U.S.  



Can't blame Mexico for what is written in US history books and goes to show how incredibly successful the marketing campaign was for a beer distributor.


ack-ack
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: DiabloTX on May 18, 2006, 07:17:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Can't blame Mexico for what is written in US history books and goes to show how incredibly successful the marketing campaign was for a beer distributor.


ack-ack


Wasn't written in any book that I studied.  I still doubt the beer company marketing campaign though.  Links pls?
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Holden McGroin on May 18, 2006, 07:25:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
You need some historical context there Bronk.

I made one point to Holden about the US (who was pointing the finger at Britain for abuse of indigenous peoples) by mentioning the US treatment of Native Indians.  


To recap:

My statement "Every country has it's skeleton closet" allowed for the skeletons in Americas closet as well.  That was intentional.

If you go back to my original post, I noted that Germany's anthem was not out of line with others, and noted Rule Britannia as a prominent example.

You then retorted, noting the behavior of the nation of 30's Germany made Germany's song somewhat different.

I then pointed out that Britain did some unsavory things during it's empire building, so your argument was without merit.

Then you spoke of the USA's treatment of Native Americans. (The genetic heritage passed from my grandmother thanks you for your concern)

The last statement did not defend Rule Britannia or attack Deutchland Uber Alles, and made no progress in the debate.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 08:50:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
To recap:

My statement "Every country has it's skeleton closet" allowed for the skeletons in Americas closet as well.  That was intentional.

If you go back to my original post, I noted that Germany's anthem was not out of line with others, and noted Rule Britannia as a prominent example.

You then retorted, noting the behavior of the nation of 30's Germany made Germany's song somewhat different.

I then pointed out that Britain did some unsavory things during it's empire building, so your argument was without merit.

Then you spoke of the USA's treatment of Native Americans. (The genetic heritage passed from my grandmother thanks you for your concern)

The last statement did not defend Rule Britannia or attack Deutchland Uber Alles, and made no progress in the debate.


Thanks for the re-cap.  I note that all was going well until you stated suddenly that my argument was without merit and that is where the debate got de-railed.  lol

Let's get back on topic.

Your comparison is totally without merit.  Here's why:  The German National Anthem speaks of German superiority over all others.

The British National Anthem goes like this:

God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.

An additional verse is occasionally sung:

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour,
Long may she reign.
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause,
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen.

Do you see the difference?  I see the difference.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Airscrew on May 18, 2006, 09:00:56 PM
, so if this is the British National anthem
Quote
God save our gracious Queen!
Long live our noble Queen!
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and glorious,
Long to reign over us,
God save the Queen.


then what was this you posted earlier
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
When Britain first at Heav'n's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain;
Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves:
Britons never shall be slaves.
The nations not so blest as thee,
Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free,
The dread and envy of them all. .....
 
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 18, 2006, 09:06:59 PM
It is a somewhat nationalistic song called "Rule, Britannia!".  It was originally a poem by James Thomson and it was put to music by Thomas Augustine Arne.  It is often mistaken for the real national anthem.  It's also good to sing at football games. :)
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Holden McGroin on May 19, 2006, 12:19:16 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
Thanks for the re-cap.  I note that all was going well until you stated suddenly that my argument was without merit and that is where the debate got de-railed.  lol


It wasn't sudden at all. You maintanied that Deutchland Uber Alles was bad due to the unsavory behavior of those who chose to sing it, and I pointed out that many who sing other patriotic songs are unsavory as well.  Therfore your comparitive argument was without merit.

I see now you have abandoned your previous tack and changed to yet a third: Now it is whether the song is an official national anthem.

This was apparently unimportant enough to mention in the first two tacks you made, the first that Rule Britannia was better because it was about defense (lyrics in DUA mention defense as well), and the second that behavior was the key.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: lazs2 on May 19, 2006, 08:26:53 AM
come on curval.... germany was bad but only for a few years and they are so guilt ridden about it that they can't even sing about love of country and defense of same..

On the other hand... england was the most cruel and tyrannical imperialistic country the modern world has ever known... the inventers of genocide and concentration camps and the biggest slavers of modern times and yet....  they feel no guilt about remembering those times in song and literature and glorying in them.

I think that is the hypocracy that holden is talking about.

lazs
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: straffo on May 19, 2006, 09:27:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I think that is the hypocracy that holden is talking about.
 


demo - cracy :  demos (the people) and kratein (power)
hypo - cracy :  hypo (what's below, low or insufficient) and kratein (power)
=> ????
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Saintaw on May 19, 2006, 09:43:44 AM
Straffo, I think it's hypocrisy reserved for medical purpose.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Curval on May 19, 2006, 09:53:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
come on curval.... germany was bad but only for a few years and they are so guilt ridden about it that they can't even sing about love of country and defense of same..

On the other hand... england was the most cruel and tyrannical imperialistic country the modern world has ever known... the inventers of genocide and concentration camps and the biggest slavers of modern times and yet....  they feel no guilt about remembering those times in song and literature and glorying in them.

I think that is the hypocracy that holden is talking about.

lazs


I agree with the concentration camps.  It was from your previous rantings and sympathy for the poor Boers during the war there.  I know you feel a very close connection to these people.  But, what were a bunch of Dutch people in South Africa for?  Could it be that they came to settle and steal the gold?  

But, inventors of genocide?  Perhaps this relates to the concentration camp establishment?

If so, while the British may have "invented" it...the Germans perfected it.  Bad...but only for a few years...LOL!
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: lazs2 on May 19, 2006, 02:55:03 PM
I like the boer system of politics.  It was based on individualism.   No matter what you say the brits were cruel and tyrannical imperialists for centuries and they are allowed and even proud to sing about the horrors they committed on the world...  even get a little tear to the eye recalling the glorious slaughter and enslavement that was "britania rule the waves".

In the U.S. we had our little brush with their tender rule and policies....  we kicked em out and told em to go pound sand.   Best thing we ever did.   Worst thing was to not help the boer.

lazs
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Holden McGroin on May 19, 2006, 02:59:56 PM
I really was just pointing out similar themes to patriotic songs...

Rule Brittania was just the first British song to come to mind, and British came to mind only because I was responding to Beet1e.

Most countries / governments / peoples have things in their history that they regret.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: indy007 on May 19, 2006, 03:26:02 PM
Actually the Brits did not invent concentration camps. Spain used them in the Ten Years War.

So far Argentina, Austria-Hungary, Bosnia, Britian, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, Croatia, Finland, France, Germany, Italy, China, Poland, the Soviet Union, Serbia, Slovakia, Netherlands, North Korea, and the United States have all used them, and in some cases continue to do so.

As far as nationalistic tunes... eh, whatever. Even high schools have fight songs. Never heard a single one from anywhere that glorified the camps... closest I can think of is Borat's "Throw the Jew Down the Well"... and that's HBO comedy.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Hap on May 19, 2006, 03:39:34 PM
Here's what the President has to say about that!

http://www.killsometime.com/Video/video.asp?ID=430

hap
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Nifty on May 19, 2006, 03:50:03 PM
I think Curval's point was that one is an official national anthem, while the other is not.

But what do I know?  I'm a confused American who likes football, I mean soccer, I mean foo...  ahh, the hell with it.  ;)
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: Hangtime on May 19, 2006, 03:52:14 PM
He's easy to laugh at.

just don't do it on the phone.

When i was dating my soon to be wife, she cautioned me: "Be careful what you say to me on the phone. they're watching us". She in fact had a whack-job leftist roommate that actually always answered the phone with a brisk: "**** Hoover. Go ahead..."

..just to let people know they were probably being listened to, and as a statement of policy regarding her stand on Hoovers FBI.

Now, all these years later, the stuff the feds gathered on people illegally is available via the 'freedom of information' act. Whats really annoying is that anybody can get that info now. It's a matter of 'public record'. And  it's one of the many reasons why i'm against the feds prying into the lives of private citizens.. who knows who's gonna be able to access the data.. it's just not safe in governemnt hands.
Title: How can anyone in their right mind..
Post by: straffo on May 19, 2006, 04:04:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
Straffo, I think it's hypocrisy reserved for medical purpose.


I also thought it was a typo for hippocracy,but seriously I don't see any country accepting to be lead by horses.
Except perhaps for the brits but Charles won't be king so ,I guess it's a no go.