Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Squire on May 17, 2006, 04:05:45 AM
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Question/Comment.
Are empty fuel tanks capable of still catching fire?
If so, please change this. Empty tanks should not catch fire or burn. A/c that are loaded up on gas should be the victims of more fires than ones with less gas on board.
Thx.
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Maybe i'm wrong but...
If a plane is out of fuel there still are fumes in the tank. When a plane is on fire it's my assumption that the tank has been burst and the remaining fuel is gushing out in the fireball we see. (Wish this would cause the plane to blow up quicker.)
If there are only fumes and the same tank is hit and sparked, there is no fuel to force the fire out, so the tank should actually turn into a concussion bomb as the entire inside of the tank fills with fire and pressure.
Example. Changing a fuel sending unit on an old mopar. You drain the tank, but there are still fumes. There is a metal lock ring you have to remove on the tank that holds everything in place. In the service manual, it says not to bang out this outer ring with metal tools, because it may cause a spark. If said spark is caused, you and your old mopar may go boom!
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A fuel tank that only has fumes in it might explode under the right conditions.
However it won't burn, one flash burns the vapors and nothing left to fuel the fire. Anyone see the mythbusters episode where they pumped gas vapors into a plexyglass box, then ignited it with static? Totally destroyed their flame box. Both a smaller version and a larger one outside. Flames were barely visible, but tremendous heat, and force.
There are otherthings that WILL burn once a fire is started, like hydralic fluid, engine oil, perhaps even the aluminum skin itself. But squire is correct, an empty fuel tank should not burn.
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How does the "Self-Sealing" fuel tanks figure into this?
Planes that have these shouldn't catch fire on taking a hit in the tank be it full or empty - unless it is a MAJOR hit.
Now, a hit in a unprotected fuel tank like on a Japanese Zero - is going to produce fire anyway you figure it.
! :aok
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I agree, that it shouldn't burn.
So i guess something else has to be added to the damage program on each plane, to determine if the empty tank will explode or just get poked full of holes, letting out the fumes?
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The empty tank should explode, in fact, the less fuel that is in the tank, the greater the chance of an explosion.
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Liquid Gasoline is not flammable......believe it or not.
It is the vapours that burn.
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I thought the fuel tanks had vents
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yes gas tanks will catch fire but only breifly, its more of an explosion, fumes and small traces of gas will still be in the tank, i kno this from welding gas tanks, used to let them soak in soapy water for a few days and let tem completly dry off
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Originally posted by Nemeth
yes gas tanks will catch fire but only breifly, its more of an explosion, fumes and small traces of gas will still be in the tank, i kno this from welding gas tanks, used to let them soak in soapy water for a few days and let tem completly dry off
BINGO! You might be "out of fuel" but there will still be unusable fuel in the bottom.
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Self sealing tanks I dont think would burn and cause a catastrophic explosion like we have no though when empty...I would like to see a difference between the two types.
For that matter, is there any damage code at all diff between a A6M2s fuel tank and a Bf 109Gs? there should be.
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And the empty fueltank still leaves a vapor trail even if its empty.
-C+
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Self sealing gas tanks sealed a hole back up. It would NOT prevent a fire or explosion from a .50 api or tracer round going through the tank.
Plus, ever seen what happens to a full water bottle, can, jug when hit by a bullet? Even a .22 can explode a 20 oz water bottle. Now visualise that as a 50 gallon gas tank being hit by a 20mm exploding round.
So a tank full of gas might not explode, but when a bullet hits, it is going to leak. May or may not self seal depending on what it was hit with.
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just remember that this aint normal gas. aircraft fuel and jet fuel are alot harder to light on fire than your run of the mill gas.
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Common sense will settle this disscussion if you think about it.
If the tank is DRY it will not explode or burn.
If the tank is WET with fuel but empty, it can explode.
If the tank has fuel in it, it can LEAK & once mixed with enough air the leaking fuel will burn.
If you are saying, "I am out of fuel & I am leaving a flaming trail, how can that be?"
Well I would ask you this, is your engine running?
Are you going by the gauge?
Have you ever seen the inside of a fuel tank that has supposedly "run dry"?
If they were to change it at all, they would have to develop a complex code that is tied to fuel level & size of the leak/ammo that hit the tank causing the leak - ammount of fuel in the tank divided by the flow from the leak - whether or not the specific plane had self sealing tanks - then they would have to figure out the ammount of flame a specific ammount of fuel will produce & under what conditions. Example; fill a thimble with gasoline and put a flame to the top of the thimble, you will get a gentle flame flickering on the top of the thimble that will burn a very long time. Now take that thimble full of gasoline & toss the contents violently out across an open flame. You will see what I mean.
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Be that as it may, self sealing tanks were designed to not light up and burn like a torch, in other words, all WW2 ac tanks did not catch fire like a G4M2 Betty and become a roman candle, and a huge flame plume would not continue if the tank was empty. This only makes sense. You dont have a fire with no more fuel.
They didnt make self sealing tanks because it sounded cool, there was a reason for it.
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Fuel and Air mixtures have an LEL (lower explosion limit) and UEL (upper explosion limit) - If the mix of fuel vapor and oxygen in the air are within the correct percentages, then even a small spark can cause an explosion.
Without looking up exact figures, fuel will burn over quite a wide range of mixtures. A full tank has a low percentage of O2, so a fire is more probable, a near empty tank has a higher percentage of O2, so an explosion is more probable.
One must also take into consideration the altitude. The higher up, the less O2, so the fuel / air mix will be different in a fuel tank at sea level verses at 20,000 feet.
Anyway - AFAIK, AH already simulates the "self sealing" tanks that some planes have. It's just that once you finally see a fuel leak or fire, there has been enough damage to prevent the self-sealing tank from sealing up again. - In other words, if a zero takes a single .50 in the wing tank, it should be leaking. A P-51D, getting a single .50 in the wing tank will be self-sealed and have no problem.