Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AquaShrimp on May 20, 2006, 09:47:40 AM
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I think the P-51D is the most versatile plane in the game. Every fighter that it comes up against, it has an advantage in a certain aspect.
For instance, against turning planes such as the KI-84, N1K2, or Spit9, the P-51 can outrun & outdive, and outzoom them.
Against faster planes such as the 190D9, 109K4, and La7, it can outturn them, has a better gunsight, and can outdive them.
The P-51s advantage lies in all the features it has. Excellent visibility from the bubble canopy, good fire power and excellent deflection shooting from 6x50cals, excellent dive characteristics, good turning at all speeds due to the large wing and combat flaps, and also good durability. I dont think any other plane has as many attributes as the mustang.
Also, lets not forget it can carry 2x1000lb bombs, along with 6 rockets and 6x50cal guns. And it has a very long range.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I think the P-51D is the most ..
I think AquaShrimp is the "king of seafoods":)
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The B-17 has all those features, with twice the armament, 3 times the payload, and 4 times the engine, along with a better bombsight.
Also, you can only fly 1 P-51 at a time.
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I'll put your Stang up against my 7 any day of the week.
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If you catch me on the deck, it will be a close fight. But above 10k, the LA7s performance drops and the P-51s increases.
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And I'd still beatcha.
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Care to take it to the dueling arena?
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:lol Out come the fleshy swords...who saw that coming?
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Sure would :)
but i don't fly weekends (unless the wife goes ou), it was stpulated in my wedding vows.
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tinman, mustang will win against the lgay. equal pilots, the only thing the lgay has going for it is higher flat out speed, only useful if you're a runtard, which doesnt do anything for you in a duel :)
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"has a better gunsight"
You do know you can assign whatever gunsight you want in any plane right?
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I meant that the gunsight was positioned so that you can have better accuracy for deflection shooting.
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The P-51s advantage lies in all the features it has. Excellent visibility from the bubble canopy, good fire power and excellent deflection shooting from 6x50cals, excellent dive characteristics, good turning at all speeds due to the large wing and combat flaps, and also good durability. I dont think any other plane has as many attributes as the mustang.
Can you say ... JUG !!!
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I meant that the gunsight was positioned so that you can have better accuracy for deflection shooting.
No better than an F6-F / F4U / P47-D40 / P-38-L ... the list goes on.
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I'd enjoy a few classic duels with you AQUASHRIMP.
Your p-51 versus my 109g2.
While the pony does have excellent dive and extend abilities,once the
speed starts to equalize between these two planes
,the 109 will begin to have a better climbrate and with its ability to decelerate
faster than the pony,should be able to manage the over shoot .
I've dueled this set-up against many players and ponys and depending on pilot
abilty,win ,lose ,or draw the pony hasn't been able to dominate the fights.
I do agree that the pony is a very capable a/c and if flown correctly is competitive with the main arena.Can carry tons of ordinace,but the jug
does carry significantly more ord and can be very deadly in a tight turn fight.
The pony has great speed but poor acceleration ,so getting caught low and slow ussually means BOOM!!
The only real problem I see with the pony is the "glass tail syndrome"
It seems that a few hits and the tail come off,but thats just my opinion.
Good post and look me up some time for some fun duels.
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Originally posted by Pooface
tinman, mustang will win against the lgay. equal pilots, the only thing the lgay has going for it is higher flat out speed, only useful if you're a runtard, which doesnt do anything for you in a duel :)
I'd say it's a toss up with the edge going to the La-7 (equal pilots) ... 1 20mm hit can ruin a P-51s day.
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Originally posted by TinmanX
I'll put your Stang up against my 7 any day of the week.
how about mine?
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Originally posted by Pooface
tinman, mustang will win against the lgay. equal pilots, the only thing the lgay has going for it is higher flat out speed, only useful if you're a runtard, which doesnt do anything for you in a duel :)
The la-7 is a great turn fighter/dogfighter it's just that most fly it full throttle.
Start stall fighting it and it has extreme torque and can do some really cool slow
speed maneuvers.It tends to decelerate well but not as well as 109's.
It falls prey to ropes ,but being sucha small a/c can ussually evade the ensuing
spray of bullets.I'd say flown aggressively and as a dogfighter and not doing all the "typical ma" la-7 stuff.The la-7 would be able to handle the pony realitively
easy.Like slapshot said the 20mm cannons are deadly.
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Remember, its not the plane, its the pilot! Just because you have the best tools of the trade, doesn't necessarily gurantee a win.
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Bet my 38 would skin your 51. :t
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I would say la7 over p51 in DA...it turns/climbs better and its faster...has better guns too.
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Thats subjective. The P-51 is faster above 12k. Better guns? La7 may have harder hitting guns, but 50s are better for deflection shooting and long range head on shots.
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Comparing American aircraft, i would say F4U is far better than P51
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Thats subjective. The P-51 is faster above 12k. Better guns? La7 may have harder hitting guns, but 50s are better for deflection shooting and long range head on shots.
I would rather have 3 cannons than 6x50 cals for deflection shooting.
And in the DA,unless u are taking off from a 15k base,your p51 won't ever reach 12k before merge.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I think the P-51D is the most versatile plane in the game. Every fighter that it comes up against, it has an advantage in a certain aspect.
For instance, against turning planes such as the KI-84, N1K2, or Spit9, the P-51 can outrun & outdive, and outzoom them.
Against faster planes such as the 190D9, 109K4, and La7, it can outturn them, has a better gunsight, and can outdive them.
The P-51s advantage lies in all the features it has. Excellent visibility from the bubble canopy, good fire power and excellent deflection shooting from 6x50cals, excellent dive characteristics, good turning at all speeds due to the large wing and combat flaps, and also good durability. I dont think any other plane has as many attributes as the mustang.
Also, lets not forget it can carry 2x1000lb bombs, along with 6 rockets and 6x50cal guns. And it has a very long range.
The BPony can turn with 'just about' anyting (using flaps / throttle) and has enough power to recover and extend, IMO, better than the D.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
The BPony can turn with 'just about' anyting (using flaps / throttle) and has enough power to recover and extend, IMO, better than the D.
Except that the D pony is a smidgen faster and climbs slightley better...So it should be able to hold an E advantage and convert it into a kill shot.
B Pony is more fun though i agree.:)
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I think the P-51D is the most versatile plane in the game. Every fighter that it comes up against, it has an advantage in a certain aspect.
For instance, against turning planes such as the KI-84, N1K2, or Spit9, the P-51 can outrun & outdive, and outzoom them.
Against faster planes such as the 190D9, 109K4, and La7, it can outturn them, has a better gunsight, and can outdive them.
The P-51s advantage lies in all the features it has. Excellent visibility from the bubble canopy, good fire power and excellent deflection shooting from 6x50cals, excellent dive characteristics, good turning at all speeds due to the large wing and combat flaps, and also good durability. I dont think any other plane has as many attributes as the mustang.
Also, lets not forget it can carry 2x1000lb bombs, along with 6 rockets and 6x50cal guns. And it has a very long range.
You pretty much described almost all US planes in here. The P-51 isn't the only versatile plane. The Hellcat, Jug and the Lightning are just as versatile of a fighter as the Mustang.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
The BPony can turn with 'just about' anyting (using flaps / throttle) and has enough power to recover and extend, IMO, better than the D.
How would you know? You bail out and hit the silk before you even merge.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I'd say it's a toss up with the edge going to the La-7 (equal pilots) ... 1 20mm hit can ruin a P-51s day.
pony better turner, easier stall too. sure, if the lgay can land hit's the pony is going to find it hard, but it shouldnt really happen:aok
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I think Shrimp in his pony would beat tinman's lgay 3 out of 5 fights at high altitude.
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Some good fights the other day between shrimp and myself in the MA.
He PonyD with 3k alt advantage against me in a spit8 defending.
we messed around for 5 mins before another nitcame in higher and picked him off.
you certainly know what youre doing in that thing shrimp, i would be interested in the DA results as equal pilots would result in the la7 winning in my view.
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Equal pilots, 4-Hog would beat the 51D. Some similarities in performance but most categories go to F4U-4 with a slight to significant edge. Only CLEAR advantage for the 51D is top speed at 20k, but even then the 4-Hog's not far off.
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You know what would be interesting? Comparing the Pony's .50 cal loadout options vs. the typical 3-cannon LA7. I was pleasantly surprised taking a 4-gun D Pony vs. a couple of N1K's in the DA; the weight reduction turns that 'stang into a very nimble plane.
I guess it would make sense; you lose what, 100 Lbs or so with barrel/receiver/mounts per gun and at least another 100 Lbs of ammo for the pair? 300 lbs less weight with the same airframe and engine should make a dramatic difference in performance. If you get the chance AquaShrimp (or any of the really good, experienced players here), I'd be very interested in hearing what some of the top-guns here think of a pony D's performance vs. the LA-7 with the Mustang lightened up a bit. I know it'll make the lethality of the Pony suffer even more in comparison to the cannons of the Russian plane, but if the LA's guns never get a shot on the Mustang that shouldn't be a huge factor...not in a 1-on-1 duel.
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i beleive the pony always has 6 mg's installed..but u have the option of loading only 4 guns.
im pretty sure about this(but hope i'm wrong)
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default load out on pony is 6 guns with option to down grade to 4
as far which is best that will never really be known as i do not know one guy that can fly both att he same time.. 2 differnt pilots will always leave the edge to the better pilot even if the skill level is just slightly better for one then the other..
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ya but the plane art always shows 6 guns.
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I'm curious about the gun loadout now. I'd read that was in issue in the Mildcat as well, with the pilots preferring the 4 gun setup over the 6 gun setup, as the 4 gun setup gave you a few more seconds worth of fire. Does the 4 gun setup in the pony also hold more rpg than the 6 gun setup?
IIRC, the F4s and FMs had the 2 additional guns removed. Wonder if the pony is setup the same way.
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When u select 4 gun option on P51 does it only load the weight of four machine guns(ammo weight excluded) ?
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La-7 with a half-decent pilot will win against a P-51B/D 9 out of 10 times all things being equal. Even if the fight starts above 20k the La can still hold its own until the fight ENDS on the deck. At any time the La can dive and escape using its superior speed, if the Pony follows it will most likely die. La-7 turns better than P-51 and hold all the other cards as well down low (where most fights end up).
Pony's only chance is to keep the fight high and fast, making slashing attacks. La-7 can deny the Pony a fight by diving. P-51 can deny La-7 a fight by keeping high.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
How would you know? You bail out and hit the silk before you even merge.
ack-ack
At least he did'nt quit. :aok
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A few facts are needed as the flight model has changed since the 2.07 update.
Among mid and late war American fighters, the P-51D currently has the largest turning circle and nearly the lowest turn rate, with full flaps. With two notches of flaps, the turn rate increases without a big difference in radius. My advice is not to use full flaps. The P-51B is slightly better, but not significantly so.
Against the La7 or Bf 109K-4, either P-51 is now easily beaten in a turn fight. Inasmuch as the La-7 will run down, out-climb and out-turn either Mustang, you better be one hell of a pilot. Likewise, the 109K-4 will out-cllimb and out-turn the Mustangs. Both the La-7 and the 109K-4 accelerate much faster. Things being as they exist after the update, given equal pilots the P-51s will lose. Indeed, the La-7 will beat the 109K4 under the same criteria. Since the update, the 190D-9 can now afford to dogfight a P-51 as it can match them on turn radius and actually maintain a higher turn rate.
There's only one way the Mustangs can have and maintain an advantage. Fight all duels at 20,000 feet or higher. Up there the P-51 can win.
My regards,
Widewing
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They PwNd the pony??? :confused: :O :mad: :furious
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I think the P-51D is the most versatile plane in the game. Every fighter that it comes up against, it has an advantage in a certain aspect.
For instance, against turning planes such as the KI-84, N1K2, or Spit9, the P-51 can outrun & outdive, and outzoom them.
Against faster planes such as the 190D9, 109K4, and La7, it can outturn them, has a better gunsight, and can outdive them.
The P-51s advantage lies in all the features it has. Excellent visibility from the bubble canopy, good fire power and excellent deflection shooting from 6x50cals, excellent dive characteristics, good turning at all speeds due to the large wing and combat flaps, and also good durability. I dont think any other plane has as many attributes as the mustang.
Also, lets not forget it can carry 2x1000lb bombs, along with 6 rockets and 6x50cal guns. And it has a very long range.
ill take on your stang in a spit 9
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The val beats the pony or lala anytime. Anyone who doesn't believe me can meet me in the DA and I will show you my mad skills!
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Originally posted by TW9
They PwNd the pony??? :confused: :O :mad: :furious
Yeah, the latest update porked the Mustangs... Actually porked the drag model associated with the flaps. While not a genuine bug as it is with the P-38, the Mustang simply cannot turn worth a hoot with more than a notch or two of flaps.
However, since there have obviously been unexpected changes in the flight models since 2.07 (109F-4 becoming major uber, Niki improving beyond uber and so on), I fully expect that there will be a further refining of the drag model with the next update.
For now, we're stuck with what we have and will have to adjust to the new reality.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by BBQ_Bob
At least he did'nt quit. :aok
Neither did I putz.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Neither did I putz.
ack-ack
Your easy. :aok
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But it doesnt turn well slow and that to me is a big factor when choosing planes. For the guy who wantsto escape its a great plane. For someone who likes to fight against better turning planes but still have a chance Id prefer an F4u.
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The Pony's wing didn't handle high AoA very well due to the laminar flow profile. Perhaps finally this has been modeled?
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Originally posted by SirLoin
When u select 4 gun option on P51 does it only load the weight of four machine guns(ammo weight excluded) ?
I'd have to assume it does, I know when you pick the 2 cannon option in the 190s it still shows the cannons in the artwork, but they aren't really there.
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Originally posted by Pooface
tinman, mustang will win against the lgay. equal pilots, the only thing the lgay has going for it is higher flat out speed, only useful if you're a runtard, which doesnt do anything for you in a duel :)
I beg to differ ... just 98% that have ever flowen an La7 don't know how to handle it and the torque such an engine makes.
..........................
But I'd say F4u or P47 is best all around. More ord, more ammo, similar speeds and range, and both are nimble fighters in right hands.
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Widewing..What about the Ta 152?...It seems to do quite well at turn fiting,not the dog everyone has been saying.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
No better than an F6-F / F4U / P47-D40 / P-38-L ... the list goes on.
F6F PWNS all of those for deflection shooting, but I think it should be changed in an update. The "stand up, look-over-the nose" view is awesome, but unrealistic.
The F4U I think is much worse than the 51 for deflection shooting...
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We are delving into two different categories here. The Main Arena has some different aspects to it that the Dueling Arena doesn't. In the Main Arena, the P-51 gets to use its range, high altitude performance, dive ability, and excellent visibility. In the Dueling Arena, these aspects are minimized.
Back to the La-7/P-51 debate. The easiest way to get away from an La7 is to dive away from it. It becomes very sluggish around 500mph. This may offer a chance for the P-51 to reposition itself while the La7 is still struggling with compression.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Widewing..What about the Ta 152?...It seems to do quite well at turn fiting,not the dog everyone has been saying.
SirLoin, in a genuine stall fight, the TA 152H is marginally better than the Mustangs, IF you can whoa it down enough to get its flaps out.
While the various 190s now are in equal or better than the P-51s in turn radius, they still suffer from the inability to get their flaps down until below 200 mph. This means having to either chop power while turning hard or just waiting for E to burn down while maneuvering. The second method is dangerous as the P-51s turn better clean than the 190s while able to get one notch of flaps at 400 mph, meaning that during the first part of a maneuver fight, the P-51s will have an advantage. Currently, P-51s get their best combination or balance of rate and radius with two notches of flaps.
Therefore, the 190s and the 152 must somehow survive long enough to burn down to speeds below 150 mph. Down around 130 mph, the A-5, and 152 have an advantage, with the D-9 being about equal. At any speed, the A-8 and F-8 are still outclassed in a turn fight with P-51s. In fact, clean, the 190F-8 has a larger turn radius than the B-26, and the A-20G out-turns any 190 unless the 190s can get full flaps out. Even then, only the A-5 has an advantage. Here is where the 190s can take advantage of their roll rate to rapid change lift vectors and gain angles.
For planes such as the 190s, P-51s and P-47s, you generally want to keep the fight from degrading into a turning contest.
My regards,
Widewing
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Bf-109 K4
one 30mm potatoe
pony...poof
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
We are delving into two different categories here. The Main Arena has some different aspects to it that the Dueling Arena doesn't. In the Main Arena, the P-51 gets to use its range, high altitude performance, dive ability, and excellent visibility. In the Dueling Arena, these aspects are minimized.
Back to the La-7/P-51 debate. The easiest way to get away from an La7 is to dive away from it. It becomes very sluggish around 500mph. This may offer a chance for the P-51 to reposition itself while the La7 is still struggling with compression.
Have you ever measured dive acceleration? I have, and the La-7's initial dive acceleration is notably faster than the P-51s. Diving away is not a solution. While the La-7 stiffens up at high speeds, it's not the result of compressibility, just stiffening elevators. This can be overcome by trim. You will gain nothing in a dive. When you level off you will have a faster (with twice the WEP duration), better climbing and more maneuverable fighter on your six and you will have few options remaining.
Come to the TA one night during the coming week and I'll be happy to show you how this comparison shakes out.
My regards,
Widewing
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The P51 obtains a higher top speed than the LA7 at around 7 k, a high speed gradual climb to 7k is the only way to leave the LA7 behind.
The last FM changes sure porked this game. Take a F4U D or C, dial in a speed of 110 mph or so and watch it hover without flaps, seriously screwed.
wipass
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You know what? I've been playing for 3.5 years, some months more than others. I've seen many FM updates and read the discussions on the boards with interest. Widewing always seem to get to the edge of the envelope in the TA (which is fine), but when I fly, I want to survive in the MA. Basically, I hardly even find myself in a situation where the more or less subtle nuances of the FM come into play.
I love the Mustang, always have done. The reason for this are clear and given at the start of this thread. But it is basically a runner. You have to rely on speed and energy retention to land kills, but it is woooonderful at that. I never use flaps in combat. NEVER! Deploying flaps means losing energy and losing energy means dying. Of course I have fought quite a number of one on one fights, even in the MA, but usually I won't get so far as to notice that the Niki has become more uber or the 109 has greatly improved near the stall. When flying/fighting them I already know their strengths and try to use them. Still, I think I would lose very duel with a vet though.
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I dont fight many f4us that dont use flaps. Flaps is what make it so nice.
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Maybe AH should take the hovercraft tech from the F4U and give it to the P-38?
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Originally posted by hogenbor
I love the Mustang, always have done...But it is basically a runner... Deploying flaps means losing energy and losing energy means dying.
Here is a p51 film i posted in Help & Training forum..It might change your mind about flaps & the stang being a run plane.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=173045