Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Killjoy2 on May 20, 2006, 09:43:17 PM
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I was looking up my Father-in-laws P-47 squadron. He was a mechanic in the 396th FG at Strabben, Germany. The 'Thunder Bums" That sounds like my new squad name.
I was struck by how many tanks they killed with P-47s.
499 Tanks
700 Locomotives
A/C Lost 110
50 cal rounds fired: 4,570,892
I wonder who tallied up the 50 cals. think of all that copper over Germany.
Here's the link:
http://www.368thfightergroup.com/368-stats.html
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I saw on Discovery Kids that P-47s used to kill Panzers by shooting them in the bottom.
They'd take off in Ohio, dive really fast towards the ground and shoot, and the bullets would come up in Germany and go through the tanks and kill them.
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There's more steel than copper in .50 BMG ball.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v498/langenator/50pickup1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Urchin
I saw on Discovery Kids that P-47s used to kill Panzers by shooting them in the bottom.
They'd take off in Ohio, dive really fast towards the ground and shoot, and the bullets would come up in Germany and go through the tanks and kill them.
No they didn't, they used P-38s
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Ignore the s.a. post. That's pretty cool killjoy, the thunder bums.
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
I was looking up my Father-in-laws P-47 squadron. He was a mechanic in the 396th FG at Strabben, Germany. The 'Thunder Bums" That sounds like my new squad name.
I was struck by how many tanks they killed with P-47s.
499 Tanks
700 Locomotives
A/C Lost 110
50 cal rounds fired: 4,570,892
I wonder who tallied up the 50 cals. think of all that copper over Germany.
Here's the link:
http://www.368thfightergroup.com/368-stats.html
1. Tank's and locomotives claimed as destroyed, not destroyed
2 . i can belive only in 110 aircrafts lost and 4 milions amno used
.50 can pentrate no more then 23 mm of armour from about 200y.
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50 Caliber Armor-Piercing Bullet Penetration
Homogeneous Armor Plate: 1.0"@ 200m 0.7"@ 600m 0.3"@1500m
Face-Hardened Armor Plate 0.9"@200M 0.5"@600m 0.2"@1500m
Clay 28"200m 27"@600m 21"@1500m
.50 BMG (http://www.vpc.org/studies/roofone.htm)
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
I was looking up my Father-in-laws P-47 squadron. He was a mechanic in the 396th FG at Strabben, Germany. The 'Thunder Bums" That sounds like my new squad name.
I was struck by how many tanks they killed with P-47s.
499 Tanks
700 Locomotives
A/C Lost 110
50 cal rounds fired: 4,570,892
I wonder who tallied up the 50 cals. think of all that copper over Germany.
Here's the link:
http://www.368thfightergroup.com/368-stats.html
Rudel alone, nailed more tanks than all the Jugs of USAF.
SHOT DOWN 32 TIMES !!! he survieved the war!
"Rudel logged 2,530 combat missions, .
Rudel's personal victories as a ground-attack pilot were achieved exclusively against the Soviets, and despite the most primitive conditions imaginable, including operations solely from dirt, mud, and snow covered airfields, his confirmed victories (those witnessed by two or more fellow pilots) include:
518+ Tanks
700 Trucks
150+ Flak and Artillery positions
9 Fighter/Ground Attack Aircraft
Hundreds of bridges, railway lines, bunkers, etc.
Battleship October Revolution, Cruiser Marat, and 70 landing craft
Through direct action, he saved tens of thousands of German infantrymen from certain encirclement and annihilation during the long retreat which began in July 43 and lasted until the war's end, almost two years later.
http://members.aol.com/ab763/rudel.htm (http://members.aol.com/ab763/rudel.htm)(http://members.aol.com/ab763/rudel2_2.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad
50 Caliber Armor-Piercing Bullet Penetration
Homogeneous Armor Plate: 1.0"@ 200m 0.7"@ 600m 0.3"@1500m
Face-Hardened Armor Plate 0.9"@200M 0.5"@600m 0.2"@1500m
Clay 28"200m 27"@600m 21"@1500m
.50 BMG (http://www.vpc.org/studies/roofone.htm)
modern amno? ;)
http://marinergraphics.com:16080/ww2/smallwoy/airAT2.JPG
http://marinergraphics.com:16080/ww2/smallwoy/airAT3.JPG
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/50_ammo.html
2 tables for on the bottom of page data for ww2
Originally posted by ghi
Rudel alone, nailed more tanks than all the Jugs of USAF.
SHOT DOWN 32 TIMES !!! he survieved the war!
"Rudel logged 2,530 combat missions, .
Rudel's personal victories as a ground-attack pilot were achieved exclusively against the Soviets, and despite the most primitive conditions imaginable, including operations solely from dirt, mud, and snow covered airfields, his confirmed victories (those witnessed by two or more fellow pilots) include:
518+ Tanks
700 Trucks
150+ Flak and Artillery positions
9 Fighter/Ground Attack Aircraft
Hundreds of bridges, railway lines, bunkers, etc.
Battleship October Revolution, Cruiser Marat, and 70 landing craft
Through direct action, he saved tens of thousands of German infantrymen from certain encirclement and annihilation during the long retreat which began in July 43 and lasted until the war's end, almost two years later.
http://members.aol.com/ab763/rudel.htm (http://members.aol.com/ab763/rudel.htm)(http://members.aol.com/ab763/rudel2_2.gif)
Rudel is well know nazi lier who write nice book about himself.
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Originally posted by ramzey
Rudel is well know nazi lier who write nice book about himself.
So can you say what is the truth of rudels stats?
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I said he is lier, if he lie about small things why not about stats?. Nazi scum anyway
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Originally posted by ramzey
I said he is lier, if he lie about small things why not about stats?. Nazi scum anyway
:rolleyes:
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.50 can pentrate no more then 23 mm of armour from about 200y
50 Caliber Armor-Piercing Bullet Penetration
Homogeneous Armor Plate: 1.0"@ 200m 0.7"@ 600m 0.3"@1500m
Face-Hardened Armor Plate 0.9"@200M 0.5"@600m 0.2"@1500m
modern amno? :)
It doesn't matter as the figures on the site you linked and those that Toad posted are the same:
1 inch = 25mm
.9 inch = 23mm
However, .50 cal tank 'busters' are just as much 'fantasy' as Rudel's 518 'busted' tanks.
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Originally posted by ramzey
.50 can pentrate no more then 23 mm of armour from about 200y.
What about bombs and rockets?
Legend says that pilots used to attach them to the planes and drop on enemy forces from the air.
Bozon
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I put that in for the additional info out to 600m.
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Originally posted by ramzey
I said he is lier, if he lie about small things why not about stats?. Nazi scum anyway
Flawed reasoning. What has he lied about btw?
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LOL...OK, I have nothing against the Finns (best Rally drivers in the world) but do you notice they say they werent Nazi symathizers in WWII, yet they all jump in to defend a Nazi they perceive to be slighted?
I am NOT saying Finns are Nazi's, I'm saying maybe you will understand why people might get that idea when you defend them so vigorously.
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I never saw where the OP stated anything about Ma Duece killing tanks. And if all the nay sayers out there who believe tanks were not killed by aircraft in WWII would stop and ask yourself;
How did all those thousands, literally thousands of superior german tanks get destroyed? They weren't all killed by inferior allied tanks in engagements where they were just outnumbered.
It was a mix of aircraft with guns/bombs/rockets; infantry with AT weapons & explosives, mines, artillery, tanks...the Finnish troops even trained stray dogs to eat under german tanks & then strapped explosives to them & turned them loose.
If aircraft didn't work, it's funny how modern combat has evolved in that direction despite it. Everyone said Billy Mitchell was crazy too, didn't they.
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Originally posted by Bruno
It doesn't matter as the figures on the site you linked and those that Toad posted are the same:
1 inch = 25mm
.9 inch = 23mm
However, .50 cal tank 'busters' are just as much 'fantasy' as Rudel's 518 'busted' tanks.
Destroying a battletank with .50 cal MGs was little more than wishful thinking.
Nonetheless, while a single .50 cal BMG round will not likely penetrate the deck armor of a battle tank, the errosive effect of being hit by hundreds of rounds can, eventually, penetrate the lighter upper deck armor of most WWII tanks. Odds still remain high that this would not occur, simply because such a concentration of fire was very unlikely. However, virtually every extenal piece of hardware can be damaged or destroyed. Lights, pintle guns, periscopes, tools, rubber road wheels and the like are susceptable to gunfire. Rounds occasionally finding their way into the engine compartment can disable the tank long enough to eliminate its immediate effectiveness.
However, support vehicles such as trucks, half-tracks and scout vehicles such as armored cars were far easier to destroy with gunfire. Indeed, self- propelled artillery was quite vulnerable to .50 caliber AP rounds.
Generally speaking, most battle tanks lost to fighter-bombers were the result of direct hits from bombs and rockets. Yet, even that was relatively uncommon. Most tanks not destroyed in fights with enemy armor were abandoned due to running out of fuel, or were disabled and could not be repaired due to a lack of supporting men and equipment.
As it was, Allied control of the air over the battlefield was such that any attempt to repair or recover disabled tanks had to be done under the cover of darkness. For the Germans, getting armor to the front was the biggest problem, as the railroads were prime targets. I've seen several photos of tanks lying upside down along rail lines, having been blown off of flat cars by bombs.
I guess in this respect, Aces High is accurate. Strafing tanks with .50 caliber MGs may knock off a track. Maybe even knock out the engine. However, it will require a bomb or rocket hit to destroy a tank in the game.
My regards,
Widewing
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There have been multiple, very long discussions on this forum about the 'effectiveness of HMGs against MBTs. In any one of those threads battlefield studies of destroyed German MBTs were posted. I can dig them up but anyone can search the forum as easy as I can. The number of tanks confirmed to have been knocked out by strafing was 0.
As Widewing said even the number of MBTs destroyed by bombs and rockets was very small, especially compared to the number of MBTs abandoned or destroyed by their own crews.
In the past in AH .50s cals and Hispanos were knocking out tanks left and right. This was due to a bug that eventually was fixed. However, many of the AH fan bois were ranting on and on about how real it was for HMGs and Hispanos (which, at least in the RAF, were never loaded with AP) to 'bust tanks'. We heard again and again about how 'bouncing .50 cals' off the ground would knock out an MBT by penetrating the 'soft underside'. We also heard claims of tanks crews being 'welded' in their tanks as the .50 cals hit the hatch lip. All sorts of nonsense like this was thrown out to rationalize was was proven to be a bug.
The most effective way to stop an armored assault with air power was to destroy the support vehicles. Once the tanks were out of fuel or ammo they were abandoned and/or destroyed by their own crews. Even the vaunted Il2 (same goes for the 'rocket firing Typhoon) wasn't as effective at knocking out MBTs as its modern reputation claims.
Destroying MBTs from the air was a very difficult, if not damn near impossible to do.
Even the number of tanks attributed to have been destroyed by Rudel in his Ju-87G are disputed by his own squadron mates.
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LOL...OK, I have nothing against the Finns (best Rally drivers in the world) but do you notice they say they werent Nazi symathizers in WWII, yet they all jump in to defend a Nazi they perceive to be slighted?
I am not sure how you categorize who is a 'Nazi' but Rudel was never a member of the NSDAP. Technically, he wasn't a 'Nazi'. He was a member of the SS, Rudel held SS membership number 206913. In a document dated 9th October 1943, concerning Knight's Cross holders of the Allgemeine-SS, he held the rank of SS-Sturmmann. During the war Rudel would have been on the Allgemeine-SS 'inactive' list while serving with the LW. After the was Rudel was active in the 'Kameradenwerk' helping SS officers etc... He was also member of the post war 'Deutsche Reichspartei (DRP)' which was as 'right wing' as they come.
He was unapologetic about his service during WW2. He was well liked by the Nazi leaders, including Hitler.
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Facts are there were some confirmed tank kills by P-47 and P-38's but not for the reason one would think.
All tanks of WWII vintage leaked some fluids, and these fluids could and would build up under the tank on the bottom and under certain conditions could be set alight from .50 cal, rocket, and or close prox bomb hits.
Also the deck armor over the engine compartments were usually vented in some mannor and were inherently weaker at those spots.
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how about killing all crew if you aim haches? ;-)
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What I know for sure about Rudel that if war continued for a little bit longer then world would witness first cyborg creation.
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Originally posted by Bruno
I am not sure how you categorize who is a 'Nazi' but Rudel was never a member of the NSDAP. Technically, he wasn't a 'Nazi'. He was a member of the SS, Rudel held SS membership number 206913. In a document dated 9th October 1943, concerning Knight's Cross holders of the Allgemeine-SS, he held the rank of SS-Sturmmann. During the war Rudel would have been on the Allgemeine-SS 'inactive' list while serving with the LW. After the was Rudel was active in the 'Kameradenwerk' helping SS officers etc... He was also member of the post war 'Deutsche Reichspartei (DRP)' which was as 'right wing' as they come.
He was unapologetic about his service during WW2. He was well liked by the Nazi leaders, including Hitler.
That's close enough to "Nazi" for me.
- oldman
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I doubt he enjoyed his time in the SS if he wasn't a member of the nazi party, they didn't ink those lightning bolts on just anybody. I sure wouldn't trust his non-nazi self around any unsuspecting Jews.:t
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Sort of resembles the actor from Pearl Harbor; Ben Affleck. Hed make a great tank buster.
Isnt there a resource on the web for Air Force gun camera footage from the war? Ive seen Time Life photos of Thunderbolts leaving the scene of a tank column with all vehicles burning and smoking. Was that propaganda?
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how many handsomehunkes here left thinking SS was not a elite unit of nazi NSDAP and rudel was not nazi
hands up
Originally posted by Chalenge
Isnt there a resource on the web for Air Force gun camera footage from the war? Ive seen Time Life photos of Thunderbolts leaving the scene of a tank column with all vehicles burning and smoking. Was that propaganda?
in the dark all cats are black
link please
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
I was looking up my Father-in-laws P-47 squadron. He was a mechanic in the 396th FG at Strabben, Germany. The 'Thunder Bums" That sounds like my new squad name.
I was struck by how many tanks they killed with P-47s.
You just should remember, that those are claims. Real figures are often quite different. As I made a short summary of larger studies:
British War Office analysis of 233 destroyed Panther tanks in 1944 revealed, that only 14 of those were destroyed by aerial attack. 11 with rockets, 3 with cannons.
During battle of Mortrain 7-10. August RAF and USAAF air forces claimed destruction of 252 German tanks destroyed. Germans only had 177 tanks and tank destroyers in that battle. Of those, 46 were lost. Nine were destroyed by aerial attacks. Seven by rockets, two by bombs.
During the German retreat to Seine, 388 AFVs were destroyed and examined. Of those only 13 were destroyed by aerial attack.
During the battle of Ardennes, of 101 destroyed AFVs only seven was destroyed by aerial attack. Claims were for 90.
During whole Normandy campaign only about 100 tanks were destroyed to Allied air attacks. None of those were destroyed by .50s.
These numbers come from combination of British and American battlefield studies.
So you see that claims are always much much higher than the real result. About anything that moves can look like a tank from air.
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Originally posted by mora
Flawed reasoning. What has he lied about btw?
Dont know squat about Rudel, but I'm callin you on this one.
The victim's neighbor says he saw the accused exiting the victims back door. But, Vinny the Mooch, three times in the pen for fraud and twice for perjury, testifies that he was with the accused watching HBO reruns the entire night of the murder. You going to accept Vinny's testimony because you dont know he's lying THIS time, eh?
A pattern of demonstrable dishonesty sure OUGHT to make us skeptical when the liar speaks up again....
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If a pilot shoot an enemy plane and sees it hit the ground, they claim a kill.
Hence, pilot shoots the tank with his bang bangs - the tank hits the ground - pilot claim a kill.
Bozon
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Of course there will be exagerated claims. There always are, it's the fog of war. Looking back after the war & investigating is as inaccurate at times as the initial reports they are dismissing out of hand.
It's like a "news" article I read about some scientists "hindcasting" (as opposed to forecasting) the strom that wrecked the SS Edmund Fitzfgerald, for years they have discounted the reports of enormous waves & hurricane force winds reported from the SS Arthur M Anderson which was only something like 7 miles from the Fitz when she sank.
Now the super geniuses agree.
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Originally posted by ramzey
how many handsomehunkes here left thinking SS was not a elite unit of nazi NSDAP and rudel was not nazi
hands up
Why are you asking this? I haven't seen anyone claiming otherwise. What comes to SS and Rudel, there's nothing in these articles I would disagree with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel
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Originally posted by mora
Why are you asking this? I haven't seen anyone claiming otherwise. What comes to SS and Rudel, there's nothing in these articles I would disagree with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel
Hmmm from your first link.
"After humble beginnings as a protection unit for the NSDAP leadership"
If it walks like a duck ,talks like a duck.
My friend you have a duck.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Grits
LOL...OK, I have nothing against the Finns (best Rally drivers in the world) but do you notice they say they werent Nazi symathizers in WWII, yet they all jump in to defend a Nazi they perceive to be slighted?
Well I'm definately not defending nazis. Ramzey said that Rudel stats were incorrect because he's a liar, but he's not even willing to tell us what Rudel has been lying about. I've read his book and definately believe he was a nazi, but that doesn't have much to do with this issue.. Nazi = scum surely yes, but I still would like to see some kind of a reference.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Hmmm from your first link.
"After humble beginnings as a protection unit for the NSDAP leadership"
If it walks like a duck ,talks like a duck.
My friend you have a duck.
Bronk
Huh? The text you are quoting is just the same what ramzey was saying, but a little more coherent.
I don't disagree with ramzey about SS or not necessarily even about Rudels kill record.
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Originally posted by mora
Why are you asking this? I haven't seen anyone claiming otherwise. What comes to SS and Rudel, there's nothing in these articles I would disagree with:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel
I believe Bruno aka Wotan posted:
"I am not sure how you categorize who is a 'Nazi' but Rudel was never a member of the NSDAP. Technically, he wasn't a 'Nazi'. He was a member of the SS, Rudel held SS membership number 206913. In a document dated 9th October 1943, concerning Knight's Cross holders of the Allgemeine-SS, he held the rank of SS-Sturmmann. During the war Rudel would have been on the Allgemeine-SS 'inactive' list while serving with the LW. After the was Rudel was active in the 'Kameradenwerk' helping SS officers etc... He was also member of the post war 'Deutsche Reichspartei (DRP)' which was as 'right wing' as they come.
He was unapologetic about his service during WW2. He was well liked by the Nazi leaders, including Hitler"
Thus the claim for Finns defending Nazis.
Bronk
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Mora I can' argue his kills because I don't know enough about it.
I was using your links to argue Bruno's post about Rudel not being a Nazi.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Bronk
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Rudel was nuts! And a nazi too!
And a good shot :D
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Originally posted by Bronk
Mora I can' argue his kills because I don't know enough about it.
I was using your links to argue Bruno's post about Rudel not being a Nazi.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Bronk
No problem. I don't know a lot about him myself, and that's why I was asking.
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Well, at least in real life pilots could SEE the bloody things.
In the game you've got to be about 10X closer than RL for them to even get painted on the screen.
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Bruno never said Rudel was not a Nazi.
All he did was just confirm a few facts about Rudel - he's wasn't "officially/technically" a member of the NAZI party.
Ofcourse, the cute part of Bruno is that he just takes things too seriously :D In this case, he should have considered our usage of the term "Nazi" not as someone literally holding an official membership of the NSDAP, but rather a more generic term for German military/civilian officials who heavily sympathized and supported the NSDAP politics and way of thinking. :D
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See my duck comment Mr semantics. :D
Bronk
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"the Finnish troops even trained stray dogs to eat under german tanks & then strapped explosives to them & turned them loose."
Really !! ? I have never heard of that, that has to be 1 of the best ideas of the war, I wonder how they trained them to distinguish bad guy tanks from the good guys.
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Well obviously it was Russians who did. I remember reading that it actually worked.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
[B
the Finnish troops even trained stray dogs to eat under german tanks & then strapped explosives to them & turned them loose.
[/B]
Uh. No. SOviets. Not Finnish. And it didn't work.
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Bronk,
...about Rudel not being a Nazi.
A Nazi is or was a member of the NSDAP, which Rudel was not. Thus technically he was not a 'Nazi'. If can post anything to dispute that please do, like Rudel's NSDAP number for example...
Brenjen,
I doubt he enjoyed his time in the SS if he wasn't a member of the nazi party
Membership in the SS didn't not require Nazi party membership. Many members of the SS were never members of the NSDAP. Rudel spent the war years in the LW on the eastern front.
Rudel was a member of the General-SS or Allgemeine-SS. I not going explain the complexities of the 3 branches of the SS but here they are: Allgemeine-SS, Waffen-SS and SS-Totenkopfverbande. Rudel joined the Allgemeine-SS in the 30s and once the war began he was listed as 'inactive'.
The 'Allgemeine-SS' were both the unpaid, volunteer territorial SS units and the various SS offices staffed with paid, full-time personnel. From '34 - '39 the 'Allgemeine-SS' was to serve as 'police auxiliary'. To be called up and deployed in cases of civil disturbances or political unrest. 'Allgemeine-SS' units would also be used to maintain order / serve as guards during various Nazi party events etc...
Rudel was as right-wing as they come, he was a Hitlerite and a full supporter of Hitler's goals in the east. You may agree with Oldman in that:
That's close enough to "Nazi" for me.
and that's all fine and good I just wanted to point out that Rudel never joined the NSDAP, which is a myth that gets thrown out quite often.
Toad,
In the game you've got to be about 10X closer than RL for them to even get painted on the screen
I have np seeing the 'dots' on the ground. It maybe a setting issue but IMHO everything seems small in AH, including aircraft at 200 yards. HT has said everything is modeled to scale and I believe him but things do seem small all the same.
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Ofcourse, the cute part of Bruno is that he just takes things too seriously In this case, he should have considered our usage of the term "Nazi" not as someone literally holding an official membership of the NSDAP
There's a real meaningful difference in being a real member of the NSDAP and the modern usage of the term 'Nazi'. Many of them legal. If Oldman or any anyone else wants to claim Rudel is a 'Nazi' then great...
My post are more of an 'fyi' then a call to argue.
I have np arguing :p but look at the claims folks are making in this thread. Even in regards to Rudel's credited claims, they don't know what they are talking about.
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Originally posted by Bruno
I have np seeing the 'dots' on the ground. It maybe a setting issue but IMHO everything seems small in AH, including aircraft at 200 yards. HT has said everything is modeled to scale and I believe him but things do seem small all the same.
You can see cars driving down the highway or cars in a parking lot from 30K; I can't see a GV sitting on a runway until I'm inside his gun range.
I'm sure setting is some of it; I don't have the latest, greatest video card. OTOH, my system specs are well above the "minimum" required.
Sorta seems like a "min system" should be able to see GV's sitting on a runway from a LONG ways out.
But, heck... so many concessions have been given to the GV part of the game that I'm sure this won't be addressed either.
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Hehe Bruno guess it's like "what the definition of "IS" is".
Technically a Nazi... no.
Member of the SS which started out as bodyguards of Nazi political leaders... Yea he close enough to be called nazi in my book.
So if you are a lawyer he is no Nazi.
To everyone who looks past the legalese ...Nazi.
Bruno for your defence of the technicalities.
Bronk
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This was one goodie:
""the Finnish troops even trained stray dogs to eat under german tanks & then strapped explosives to them & turned them loose."
Really !! ? I have never heard of that, that has to be 1 of the best ideas of the war, I wonder how they trained them to distinguish bad guy tanks from the good guys."
Well, be it the Russians or others, there is another wild idea that was tested by the brits.
BATS WITH INCENDIARIES. The idea was to drop lots of bats over an enemy city at night. The bats carried timed incendiaries. Since they seek out attics and rooftops and such to hang-in, they are actually homing into the best place to start a fire. Then "fooomp".
The idea worked, - a bat escaped and started a fire. Project scrapped.
Oh, and interesting that the only thing unveiling a person as a Nazi is the NSDAP number. What number did Hitler have? 1 perhaps :D
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The article I read said it was Finnish troops that trained the dogs & it worked very well until the Germans began shooting stray dogs that approached them. How they distinguished friend from foe? I don't know the details, maybe they turned the animals loose one at a time when the need arose. like firing an AT round, you only do it when you SEE the enemy.
The bat thing was tried by the United States against a mock Japanese town, they used mexican brown bats & that idea worked perfectly they claimed. It was deemed unessescary with the success of the atomic bomb. I was unaware the Brits tried something similar with bad results & cancelled the project.
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IIRC, German officers regardless of which branch of service they belonged to, were NOT allowed to join a political party. SS units may be an exception here, since they techically were not a part of the Wehrmacht.
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IIRC, German officers regardless of which branch of service they belonged to, were NOT allowed to join a political party. SS units may be an exception here, since they techically were not a part of the Wehrmacht.
Not necessarily...
The Wehrmacht had a tradition, and for the most upheld that tradition through out WW2, that officers were not to be active members of political parties. In fact in the old Reich's army it was forbidden to belong to any political organization. Of course that doesn't mean that they didn't support or favor one party or leader over another.
§ 26 of the Wehrgesetz:
Politik in der Wehrmacht.(1) Die Soldaten dürfen sich politisch nicht betätigen. Die Zugehörigkeit zur NSDAP oder zu einem der ihr angeschlossenen Verbände ruht für die Dauer des aktiven Wehrdienstes.
Basically states that members of the Wehrmacht, who were members of political party, could not actively work for said party, they were 'inactive'. After the July '44 plot against Hitler serving members of the Wehrmacht were prohibited from joining any political party.
There were of course exceptions. The Luftwaffe, for example, was most modern branch of the Wehrmacht and as such was much more closely associated with the NSDAP. In fact Hitler is quoted as saying:
I have an imperial army, a catholic navy and a National Socialist air force
There are plenty of examples of Luftwaffe personnel belonging to the party, Walter Nowotny for one. However, membership in the NSDAP was generally rare among Luftwaffe airmen and was actually frowned upon by others.
The SS is a separate issue. Most of the leadership within the SS were members of the NSDAP, there are notable exceptions. However, back to Rudel. he held a low rank in the Allgemeine-SS and never joined the NSDAP. In fact most of the rank and file SS were not even German and not members of the party.
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IIRC when they decided to merge the SS into the army organization the Wehrmact didn't really like the idea, and I can understand why.
I have read Rudel's book and it is very clear that he believed Hitler to be right even whe he was clearly going insane. I was under the impression that "nazi" ideology was not too important to him except that they fought against bolshevism and he didn't really understand why the western allies were not fighting the Russians, too.
To me he was Hitler's devoted lapdog and considered Hitler next to god without any critizism.
"LOL...OK, I have nothing against the Finns (best Rally drivers in the world) but do you notice they say they werent Nazi symathizers in WWII, yet they all jump in to defend a Nazi they perceive to be slighted?"
:rofl Bait (TM)?
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Originally posted by Grendel
Uh. No. SOviets. Not Finnish. And it didn't work.
If I recall correctly those dog where used to the sound of Russian engines :D friendly kill isn't ;)
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HEY My thread has been hijacked.
It's clear the 396th thought they could kill a tank with 50's from the gun camera footage.
They have a couple of examples of 396th gunning a tank posted on their site. My own thoughts would be that they sometimes could disable a tank with 50's but relied on rockets and bombs for the most part.
The 395th were the "Tank Dusters" and the 397th were the "Jabo Angels"