Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Furball on May 21, 2006, 05:21:38 AM
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Just an observation...
I think that pintle guns on tanks need an update. It seems ludicrous that firstly, a man sitting in a cupola shooting a machine gun is not vunerable to air attack. The pintle gun should be very easily knocked out (possibly more so than the open turret on flak). I may be wrong here, i am no expert on tanks, but i am pretty sure you could not control the pintle MG remotely with the hatch down.
Where is the gunner who mans the gun? he should be visible so you can target him.
(http://www.aikensairplanes.com/images/CEN_99805_S1_Panzer-IV.jpg)
Finally, i am no expert on guns or armour penetration.... but how does a 7.9mm slug from an MG34 go through firstly the prop, then engine to the pilot and wound him? or through armoured windscreen to wound the pilot? Is armour or penetration not modelled on aircraft?
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Maybe they should strap giant tanks of fuel or explosive to the top
of the tank so you can not waste time as you fly with impunity over the
GVs as well.
The 7.92mm MGs are a joke for air defense. Heck, they leave nearly
90 degrees of blind area for any non lazy aircraft to exploit.
All in all, a light machinegun seems a feeble defense against unlimited
numbers of 1,000 lb bomb carrying jabos.
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Thanks for the non input.
As for your info on the joke air defence for tanks, last time i checked the PZ IVG was not built with the intention to shoot down aircraft. It is a Tank made for Tank combat and infantry support, hence why the Ostwind was developed.
If you want to see how pitifully defenceless tanks were against aircraft? go try wwiionline. No pintle guns there and if you have your commander out of the hatch he is liable to be shot in the head and killed.
I dont care much anyway, as i said, its just an observation towards realism, i am not exactly a dedicated GV killer.
If anything, its buff guns i detest and their lazer guided to pilot 50cals.
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Originally posted by Furball
Finally, i am no expert on guns or armour penetration.... but how does a 7.9mm slug from an MG34 go through firstly the prop, then engine to the pilot and wound him? or through armoured windscreen to wound the pilot? Is armour or penetration not modelled on aircraft?
In Tom Blackburn's book The Jolly Rogers he documents the loss of one of their pilots, Chuck Pillsbury. He had been performing strafing runs over the jungle and dissappeared. 25 years after the war, his plane was found with him still strapped into the seat. A .25 calibre ( roughly 6 mm ) round had pierced his body from the bottom and lodged in his skull.
The plane was an F4U Corsair. The bullet had travelled up through the bottom of the plane, the seat, and torso.
The Japanese infantry had been instructed by their officers to fire their weapons straight up into the air when they were attacked by such means. They made such an impact that once Fighter Command learned of this technique, "all routine strafing runs over wooded terrain was discontinued." [/B]
Just wanted to point out how vulnerable pilots are.
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ouch that would have hurt so bad...i hope hes in a better place considering he died servering his country.
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However, we don't have infantry who can be killed, even though they may have gotten lucky on rare occasion. We have tanks with guns which can't be disabled without taking the entire turret out, without any regard for realism in that particular area. What other weapons are immune to similar weapons? You can get your guns shot out while in a bomber, fighter, or attack plane when shot with just about anything, and the same is true for half tracks, amphibs, ship guns, field guns, and PT boats, but not for the MG up top on tanks.
Interesting story on Mr. Pillsbury, but I don't think using one-in-a-million lucky shots as an example accurately depicts a vulnerability of all pilots in ground attack aircraft. Anyway, that's off topic, since the issue here is that the gunner can kill the pilot, but the pilot cannot kill the gunner.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Interesting story on Mr. Pillsbury, but I don't think using one-in-a-million lucky shots as an example accurately depicts a vulnerability of all pilots in ground attack aircraft. Anyway, that's off topic, since the issue here is that the gunner can kill the pilot, but the pilot cannot kill the gunner.
No, it's not off-topic, as that was one of Furball's initial points. And it does apply as it serves notice that there was didly protection for the pilot ( except for customary armor plating on the back )
Another side-bar to this is there was a P-38 pilot ( 475th, I think... but I'm not going to dig through my library searching for it right now ) who insisted that his plane be outfitted with additional angled armor plating on each side to cover the kidney areas. Sure enough, eventually that plating saved his life from a Japanese 20mm round.
The purpose of my post was to cite a specific example where a small calibre weapon can, in fact, inflict the dreaded 'one - ping kill' we so often hear about.
As for the vulnerability of the pintle gun, I agree that it should be destroyed with very little effort.. so there.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
However, we don't have infantry who can be killed, even though they may have gotten lucky on rare occasion. We have tanks with guns which can't be disabled without taking the entire turret out, without any regard for realism in that particular area. What other weapons are immune to similar weapons? You can get your guns shot out while in a bomber, fighter, or attack plane when shot with just about anything, and the same is true for half tracks, amphibs, ship guns, field guns, and PT boats, but not for the MG up top on tanks.
Interesting story on Mr. Pillsbury, but I don't think using one-in-a-million lucky shots as an example accurately depicts a vulnerability of all pilots in ground attack aircraft. Anyway, that's off topic, since the issue here is that the gunner can kill the pilot, but the pilot cannot kill the gunner.
The M-8 can (and will) lose just the pintle gun to a brief .303 strafing run.
Probably need an extended run to knock out the whole turret, but a bullet or two will knock out the pintle mount.
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It would be neat (in a tank) that should a pintle be taken out whilst manned the rate of fire of the main gun drops...........
equally I believe the only reason an osti can maintain continous rate of fire was because there was a second guy loading it.............. I think this operator should be part of the damage model ......
A work around would be to enable "pilot wounds" to each position in a GV/AC this would have the usual pass out effect for most positions (ac gunners, pilots and drivers) but where there is a multi operator function the alternative would be to lower the rate of fire for such manually loaded weapons.
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Originally posted by Tilt
It would be neat (in a tank) that should a pintle be taken out whilst manned the rate of fire of the main gun drops...........
In most tanks the operator of the pintle mount is the commander, who does not help with the loading/firing of the main gun. Better IMO is simply the inability to "unbutton" the tank if the commander is hit. That is, you can only look through vision ports (may have to model a few more) at that point instead of sticking your head out the top for a good view. That would seem to me to be quite a handicap.
Originally posted by Tilt
equally I believe the only reason an osti can maintain continous rate of fire was because there was a second guy loading it.............. I think this operator should be part of the damage model ......
A work around would be to enable "pilot wounds" to each position in a GV/AC this would have the usual pass out effect for most positions (ac gunners, pilots and drivers) but where there is a multi operator function the alternative would be to lower the rate of fire for such manually loaded weapons.
I believe if you cntl-D in a vehicle, the driver and gunner positions show up as "damageable" parts -- but I have never seen it happen. I guess in general if a shot penetrates the tank the model assumes it is enough to kill all the occupants. Would make for an interesting twist, though.
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I seem to lose my turret in Panzers faster than I lose my hull gun...have never noticed really at what point I am losing that pintle gun.
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Originally posted by APDrone
No, it's not off-topic, as that was one of Furball's initial points. And it does apply as it serves notice that there was didly protection for the pilot ( except for customary armor plating on the back )
Actually, he specifically addressed being pilot wounded from a direct nose-on shot through the prop, engine, armoured glass, etc. Quite different from taking a direct shot through the floor pan, or cannon round in the back, for the purposes of this particular discussion. I don't take issue with either of those, as one is, AFAIK, possible, and the other happens all the time.
I do think I should be able to shoot and kill the little meatlump sitting on the turret blazing away at people though.
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Sorry, I dont mean to interupt your discussion but ....
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I do think I should be able to shoot and kill the little meatlump sitting on the turret blazing away at people though.
thats funny :lol
carry on...
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As for the vulnerability of the pintle gun, I agree that it should be destroyed with very little effort.. so there.
It is true,if you shoot at the tank and the person operating the tank is in the pintle gun,that person will be taken out faster.
Some of us tankers know well enough too go into drivers position when being straffed then pop out and shoot at the plane.
Long story short furball; watch out when straffing tanks.
Maybe they should strap giant tanks of fuel or explosive to the top
That is priceless!:aok
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Originally posted by AutoPilot
It is true,if you shoot at the tank and the person operating the tank is in the pintle gun,that person will be taken out faster.
Some of us tankers know well enough too go into drivers position when being straffed then pop out and shoot at the plane.
Long story short furball; watch out when straffing tanks.
This is absolutely false.
Aces High BB > General Forums > Aces High General Discussion > 1 bomb wonders
quote:originally posted by ghi:
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If you are on MG position in Tiger when bomb hits, die eassy. Always go to position 1 inside and keep moving, if you hear bombs coming,
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This is false. It dosn't matter what postion you are in.
HiTech
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I don't care what he said,you said or she said for that matter, i have had it happen too me.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
However, we don't have infantry who can be killed, even though they may have gotten lucky on rare occasion. We have tanks with guns which can't be disabled without taking the entire turret out, without any regard for realism in that particular area. What other weapons are immune to similar weapons? You can get your guns shot out while in a bomber, fighter, or attack plane when shot with just about anything, and the same is true for half tracks, amphibs, ship guns, field guns, and PT boats, but not for the MG up top on tanks.
Yes, but the planes in Aces high are not flown like they were in WWII. Do you think aircraft circled masses of armor like they do in tank towns here risking being shot at by 10-20 pintle guns? I have had guys come in so low for so long I've hosed them with my hull gun. There is no secret to hiutting a plane diving on you from too close or pulling out and climbing straight away--any good bird hunter knows where ot lead it to hit it--yet you don't hit them all the time and you rarely shoot one down unless it's due to them crashing after you tagged them.
Did Lancasters fly 500 ft over a battlefield alloing their tails to be shot off? I have killed them with cannons they have come in so low, slow and steady.
Careles, thoughtless and cartoonish flying makes for ease of hits with pintle's--not the gun being uber modeled.
The Pintle is vulnerable, how much I do not know but that is a valid question.
Sakai
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What the point is I think, is that the pintle is linked to the entire turret for damage.
As far as the pintle for air defense....Eh, it ain't all that, but it's slightly better than nothing at all. I can knock out a planes oil (turn him into a smoker) if they fly in straight & level & give me the chance. On the second pass, if they allow me to just hammer their engine for 800 yards, I can kill the engine. I have never had a plane just "blow up" mid air from a pintle gun attack. I love it when they fly right down the barrel of the main gun lol
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Ya..make the pintle gun like a man-ack...a good strafe with mg's and poof!
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Sakai, the pintle gun is only disabled if the turret itself is disabled. It isn't a separate system, and no amount of mg or cannon fire will kill it, until the turret receives enough damage to "break".
And we're not talking about diving lancs, or strafing a plane hovering at 100' until it pops. The point is that the pintle doesn't die. A short burst from the pintle can and does injure the attacking pilot, or damage the radiator or oil systems. A long burst from the fighter does nothing to the pintle. If my Il-2 is incredibly vulnerable to light mg fire, how come the soft unprotected target isn't?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
And we're not talking about diving lancs, or strafing a plane hovering at 100' until it pops. The point is that the pintle doesn't die. A short burst from the pintle can and does injure the attacking pilot, or damage the radiator or oil systems. A long burst from the fighter does nothing to the pintle. If my Il-2 is incredibly vulnerable to light mg fire, how come the soft unprotected target isn't?
Right, and I said that portion of the point was a good one.
But the whining about the deadliness of the pintle I was also addressing.
It's stupid and careless and cartoon like flying that makes people die in low strafing mode, not pintle guns.
Sakai
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I'll ping'm with the pintle gun and the hull gun, its funny to watch some of them get startled and dip their wings and hit a tree, cheap thrills but fun none the less