Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: funkedup on October 25, 2001, 02:39:00 AM
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http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011025/ts/attack_anthrax_source_dc_1.html (http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011025/ts/attack_anthrax_source_dc_1.html)
Well I'm pretty sure that it didn't come from two of the three countries. That leaves one. I have a feeling there is going to be some unfinished business completed after we are done with the Taliban and Bin Laden.
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why wait? kick their arse now! The freakin afgan toejame could drag on for years...1st we have to feed them, then bomb them, then clean up our bombs, then feed them, then bomb them,then.... freakin ridiculous.
I think is definitive proof were to surface, I think we'd act immediately. Or at least I hope we would. I hope we would NOT send Powell around to every other nation asking them "Is it ok with you?", "How about you, is it ok with you & your country if we attack those that are killing our civilians?"
[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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about 3 years ago (maybe lomger) a neo-nazi militia type was arrested while carrying anthrax and small pox in the trunk of his car in las vegas.
This was the second time he was arrested with having the stuff. He was arrested earlier when authorities found it in his home.
He got the stuff be forming a fraudulent research company and then ordering samples for "research" from several different companies.
They found liturature that had something to do with "weaponizing" the stuff. They also found formulas for tabun and sarin and some of the chemicals needed to develope them.
I forget most of the details but I'll do a search later. It was reported he was some kind a professor and kind of a una bomber type.
There are people in this country who if they could would repeat sept 11 and theres no doudt if they had bio/chem weapons they would use them.
We have plenty of reason to go after iraq lets not make up some more till we know.
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Wotan, I find that highly suscpicous since its globally known that the only two sources of Small pox left on the face of the earth are in a deep freezer at the CDC in Atlanta, and one sample in Moscow.
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heres a link to the nutbags story (http://www.lasvegassun.com/dossier/crime/bio/harris.html)
more on the nutbag (http://www.salon.com/news/1998/02/20news.html)
[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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it was bubonic plague i said i couldn't remember the details.
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was only relaying from memory. I'm not a big follower of killer biohazards..........
:rolleyes:
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Also I'm not saying it was homegrown more likely then not its iraq but I would hate to focus there and it turn up it was home grown.
[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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no mention of small pox in that story. thankfully.
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Even more simple to obtain - and even more toxic - is ricin, an extract of the castor bean plant. In 1995, four members of the Minnesota Patriots Council were convicted of conspiring to kill federal agents by smearing the deadly powder on doorknobs. They had accumulated enough ricin to murder 1,400 people.
my reference to tabun abd sarin was wrong as well.
The above incident was seperate from the anthrax deal.
See how rumors start :)
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Bah
yersinia pestis might be treatable with antibiotics, but it's still nasty. Bubonic Plague not so much (that's the "skin infection" variety -- 72 hours and 50% mortality if untreated), but certainly Pneumonic Plague (inhaled). Time from exposure to completion is 24 hours, with a 90 percent mortality rate. And it's highly contagious. Think of Anthrax that works faster and is easier to deliver (Anthrax is used as a weapon in part because it isn't contagious, so you can localize the effect -- an important consideration in warfare, but not as critical in terrorism). Sure, you can apply antibiotics if you catch it early enough, and if you have enough antibiotics in a region but the game is killing people before it's detected, and concentrating incidents to exceed the supply of antibiotics.
So for anthrax, killing a lot of people means weaponizing it and spraying it in crowded areas (not sending it through the mail). For yp, killing a lot of people means exposing a single person to the airborne form immediately before boarding a transpacific flight to a major US hub airport. By the time an outbreak is detected, thousands are already dead.
As for Iraq and Anthrax, I don't buy it. Sorry, the republicans have been looking for an excuse to go militarily after Iraq ever since Bush found himself lacking the testes to drive to Baghdad. Iraq could be behind it, but nothing concrete I've seen so far suggests that we're up against a particularly sophisticated germ warrior.
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Dinger, until you or your family are dead, you'll probably think its a republican conspiracy. Let me be perfectly clear on this, these terrorists do not want to negotiate. They simply want you dead. Simple as that. We can do this diplomatically and put flowers in the gun barrels of the political leaders in countries such as Iraq and face even more innocent deaths in the Free world, or we can go in and squash this bug now. Its up to us.
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good link (http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol5no4/stern.htm)
turns out that harris guy had a anthrax "vaccine" as he called it. It was inert and the fbi dropped charges related to the anthrax but charged him with wire fraud related to his obtaining the stuff.
The above the was interesting to me so I posted it.
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how deadly is small pox?
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Smallpox and related diseases contributed to the deaths of 90% of the Native American population (in certain areas) in the Americas when Europeans first arrived. The Native Americans had no immunity.
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and since no one here in the states has received a vaccine since 1972 (I think), it'd wipe us out.
Scary thought I've had is a muslim martyr infecting himself, walking/flying/busing around the general population infecting just about everyone he comes in contact with until he goes to see the wonderful Allah and his 72 virgins... it'd be worse than a low yield nuclear strike in many ways.
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Iraq could be behind it, but nothing concrete I've seen so far suggests that we're up against a particularly sophisticated germ warrior.
Ummm what part of the following are you having trouble reading?
The anthrax spores that contaminated the air in a U.S. Senate office last week had been treated with a chemical additive so sophisticated that only Iraq, the former Soviet Union and the United States are thought to have been capable of making it, the Washington Post reported on Thursday.
I'm sure it's all just a coincidence and a big Republican conspiracy. Sigh...
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Just my two cents.
I rarely hear Great Britain mentioned but I believe they had it too. And the US was supposed to have destroyed their anthrax weapons in the 70's . And as late as the 90s I believe the USARMY was still vaccinating soldier doing Egypt rotations for small pox, of course not the antiquated one that leaves the scar, so that leads me to believe that it may be out there somewhere . And most soldiers in rapid deployment units were vaccinated for plague, but I believe they stopped doing that in the 90's too, luckily not before I got mine. They had just started giving everyone in my unit anthrax vaccine when I got out in 99.
What I would like to know is, why don't they give postal workers the anthrax vaccine.
[ 10-25-2001: Message edited by: Suave1 ]
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Small pox isnt contagous till the syptoms are very advanced. At which time the victum is in an exteme flue like state. and covered with small pox.
They addresed this issue with an expert on 60 min last weekend.
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US, USSR and Iraq were thought to have been capable of doing it. I'm betting there are a lot of people in this country capable of adding that chemical.
Folks, it ain't a conspiracy. Nobody in the Administration has been hiding the desire to go after Iraq (except for Powell, who actually has a brain), just as none of our "allies" so far have been hiding their lack of support for such a move. This kind of leakage, which seems to say something yet doesn't actually say anything, is just the sort of propaganda we need to built international opinion against Iraq.
I'm not saying Iraq didn't do it, I'm just saying this information is worthless as proof thereof. And, no ripsnort, I'm not going to give into the fear that Afghanis, Iraqis, Syrians, Iranians, Lebanese and French are all determined to kill me and my family. If the anthrax-mailers did a better job of delivering their payload, I'd find that a much more convincing argument for an international conspiracy or a hostile state orchestrating it.
Hell, did you even see the quote of Dubya today? He effectively said there was no solid connection between this and Sept. 11. Keep yer pants on everybody. Millions are not in immediate danger of getting Anthrax Halloween Cards first class from Baghdad.
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I was gassed once. It was harmless tear gas. It was a little scary all the same. The army had told us that the V C would mix clorine gas with the tear gas so we would just think it was harmless. The problem was twofold. I had no gas mask. And I was on guard duty. I could not leave my post. All I could do was stand my post and hope for the best.
You cant measure actions by what the military does. Soldier will often be moving towards the danger, rather then away from it. They need to be better equipped, and prepared, then civilians.
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no solid connection between this and Sept. 11.
Besides the date... 9-11-01 shown clearly and boldy across the top of all three letters published.
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Just looked at them now.
Well, of course, the person sending it wanted to make a connection. We knew that.
But they're all postmarked after September 11th, so it's not exactly a coordinated assautl.
The letter to Daschle is on different paper.
They're all in the same hand, trailing off to the right.
The spelling of Penacillin implies that the author learned english as a spoken language and later as a written one -- that is, someone who learned at a young age and probably has English as a native tongue.
I'll also point out the uniquely american dating system month-day-year. Nobody else in the world does it that way. In addition, the arabic number 9 has a straight shaft, as opposed to a curved one. This style is as far as I know unique to what is taught in American Schools.
So frankly, the evidence isn't conclusive either way.
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Ripsnort wrote:
They simply want you dead.
Right on Rip, I think we all need to get ready for more bloodshed. Until the US gets over the BAD case of political correctness
and get some balls we will be the target of all these ass-holes.
I don't understand why we are not rounding up every foreign student from that part of the world, revoke their visa's and send them packing...even if we (the US ) had to use the Air Force to fly their tulips home!
YA I'm may sound extreme but I already have 1 bullet hole in my head and I not fond of getting any more!
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how deadly is small pox
its treatable, rarley fatal if identified and given the proper stuff.. the only fear is the fact that we have almost no suppply of drugs to cure it right now, since it was wiped out years ago not many countries bother stocking any of the antibiotics for it anymore.. also the fact that it is contagous.. its not as easy to spread as most people think (like its a commin cold or something) you have to be quite a ways along in the cycle of the illness to really begin spreading it..
most of the 'horror' of it is placebotic.. its scary to think you might be getting some sort of freaking disease in your mail..
imagine what the average hypocondreac (sp)is going through now.
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HAVE TO BE CAREFULL HERE!!!...If we launch on Iraq and it turns out to be the work of some Anti-Government quacks like Tim McViegh..and they offer proof they did it..It could squash the whole effort against OBL and his ring..and backfire big time against USA...That headline about only 3 countries able to produce anthrax sounds like pre-strike propaganda..They better know for sure this is true or the whole ani-terrorist effort could get screwed!!!
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its not a matter of PRODUCING it.. thats EASY, its milling and chemically altering it to disperse better and whatnot, THATS what takes the technology and stuff.
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1.5 mil and 6 months is what it took a group of scientists to produce 2 pounds of weapons grade using off the shelve, locally bought materials under a CIA sponsored trial.
p.s.-they did it in an old barbershop, and were never detected or questioned by local authorities.
[ 10-27-2001: Message edited by: Gadfly ]
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My take, for what it is worth:
http://www.theofficersclub.com/osi/Forum3/HTML/000017.html (http://www.theofficersclub.com/osi/Forum3/HTML/000017.html)
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how deadly is small pox
its treatable, rarley fatal if identified and given the proper stuff.. the only fear is the fact that we have almost no suppply of drugs to cure it right now, since it was wiped out years ago not many countries bother stocking any of the antibiotics for it anymore.. also the fact that it is contagous.. its not as easy to spread as most people think (like its a commin cold or something) you have to be quite a ways along in the cycle of the illness to really begin spreading it..
most of the 'horror' of it is placebotic.. its scary to think you might be getting some sort of freaking disease in your mail..
imagine what the average hypocondreac (sp)is going through now.
Wobble: go straight to biology 101. Do not pass GO, do not collect a medical degree.
Smallpox is a VIRUS. Antibiotics kill BACTERIA.
There is NO TREATMENT for smallpox, only a vaccination, which can only PREVENT you from getting it. In people exposed to smallpox, the vaccine can lessen the severity of or even prevent illness if given within 4 days after exposure (although the incubation period is 12 days - so you won't feel sick until 12 days after exposure).
A vaccination lasts about 10 years. Routine vaccination stopped in 1972, and it is unavailable to the public to prevent the disease spreading (Vaccines have a small but significant risk factor).
Once you've got smallpox however, it is entirely up to your immune system to deal with it, and the doctors just have to sit and watch.
In places with no resistance like America in Cortes' time mortality ran at about 90% - and with widespread resistance (Europe at the same time, where smallpox was endemic) mortality ran at 10%.
Smallpox is spread from one person to another by infected saliva droplets that expose a susceptible person having face-to-face contact with the ill person. Persons with smallpox are most infectious during the first week of illness, because that is when the largest amount of virus is present in saliva. However, some risk of transmission lasts until all scabs have fallen off.
I fear most of the horror is fairly genuine, although the most scary bioweapon would still have to be an airborne variant of a haemorraghic virus - much more shocking to look at. Or influenza - last time that was a bit of a killer in 1918 it wiped out more people than WWI - all that without the benefit of widespread air travel.
[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]
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Are you sure about the vaccine? The best way to immunise yourself against smallpox is to catch cowpox, and that protection lasts for life.
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Yeah, I thought that the vaccine was based on cowpox. And I'm pretty sure that once immunized you are good for life. I'll check with the immunology guys here at the hospital. I'm glad I was forced to get my Anthrax vaccinations now...
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The smallpox "vaccine" was one of the first created. It involved making an incision and infecting it with cowpox. At least, that's what I've always been taught. Personally, I think Louis Pasture just liked to play with knives.
AKDejaVu
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or Milkmaids....
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Well this from the WHO
Duration of protection following vaccination
Vaccination usually prevents smallpox infection for at least ten years.
If symptoms appear, they are milder and mortality is less in vaccinated than in nonvaccinated persons.
Even when immunity has waned, vaccinated persons shed less virus and are less likely to transmit the disease.
Complications of vaccination
Existing vaccines have proven efficacy but also have a high incidence of adverse side-effects.
The risk of adverse events is sufficiently high that vaccination is not warranted if there is no or little real risk of exposure.
Vaccine administration is warranted in individuals exposed to the virus or facing a real risk of exposure (see above).
A safer vaccinia-based vaccine, produced in cell culture, is expected to become available shortly. There is also interest in developing monoclonal anti-variola antibody for passive immunization of exposed and infected individuals, which could also be administered to persons infected with HIV.
As far as I know, 10 years is pretty much how long most vaccines stay effective for without booster shots - except perhaps gamma globulin, the vaccine against hepatitis A, which as far as I remember lasts about 6 months to a year (if indeed it is effective at all)
[ 10-29-2001: Message edited by: -dead- ]