Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: parker00 on May 23, 2006, 11:32:36 PM
-
Can anyone tell me why we back Israel so much? I'm not trying to flame them or anything like that. I just don't see why this president and the ones before him put Israels security above our own. I hear about spies being caught every so many years from Israel and they have even sunk one of our ships (by accident of course) yet we still blindly support them in everything they do. We block UN resolutions against them, give them billions in aid and say we will defend them against outside attacks. Is it about religion, location or just a chance to piss off the arabs? Really it just doesn't make sense for us to care about them so much when they have never done anything for us but cause us problems and grief when we back them. Does everyone really believe that the palestinians are the only ones to blame for the current situation? Am I missing something that they have or have done for us in the past?
Link (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/23/us.mideast/index.html)
-
because it is a mitzvah to do so. take a faith based world view out of the equation and I'll still pull for the little guy in any fight. Little David still whips the tar out of big Goliath and the philistines (which is what the palestinians call themselves, filistini) Israel has earned my respect and admiration for it's stubborn defense of their ancestral homeland. the arabs completely surround them, outnumber them 5:1 and all they manage to do is enrich Israeli soil with their carcasses every time they attempt to drive them into the sea. It should always be our national policy to remain Israel's staunch supporter, let the euros support the arabs, they're custom made for each other.
-
Probably for economical reason....what other reason is there?
-
I'm too drunk to reply to this, but I'm going to do it anyway. My very first reply was incredibly racist, and against all my common sense in my drunk brain, I have deleted it.
Israel is a state set up for freedom's purposes against all religious persecution
It was exactly set up along America's guidelines, except for the fact that it already had a population and belonging (can't pick the right word) to the land it was going to. You can't argue that the current americans belonged over the deposed Indians.
-
There are many reasons of culture and history but the biggest one is simple:
the Israel lobby is the most powerful and well funded.
-
Or you can just explain away anything you don't like, is succesful, and can't morally be opposed to as having a Big Lobby.
You can always do that, no matter which party.
-
We HAVE to back Isreal. The jewish population of the US demands it, not to mention it's the moral thing to do.
If we pulled all support, it would take about 30 seconds for an all out holy war the likes of which the world has never seen and never will again.
-
you'll never know:noid :noid :noid (http://www.remnantofyhwh.com/images/freemason.gif)
-
Originally posted by rpm
We HAVE to back Isreal. The jewish population of the US demands it, not to mention it's the moral thing to do.
If we pulled all support, it would take about 30 seconds for an all out holy war the likes of which the world has never seen and never will again.
You couldn't be more wrong if you believed in the magic bullet theory.
One of the things about the world that mistifies me is the fact that all of the jewish population is not completely and hardline conservatives. I've spent many nights trying to figure out why, but haven't come up with an answer.
-
Israelis rarely suicide bomb the US?
-
Israeli intelligence is one of if not the best in the world, it has to be. I am sure their intelligence work has helped us many times
-
Originally posted by rpm
If we pulled all support, it would take about 30 seconds for an all out holy war the likes of which the world has never seen and never will again.
I'm not so sure thats a bad thing. But of course, I dont believe the "never will again" part. Not by a long shot.
-
we smell so much better then the other side....
-
Originally posted by rpm
We HAVE to back Isreal. The jewish population of the US demands it, not to mention it's the moral thing to do.
If we pulled all support, it would take about 30 seconds for an all out holy war the likes of which the world has never seen and never will again.
Just for some proportions, there are a little over 5 milion Jews in the US. The illegal immigrants population in the US is estimated 12 million - about the size of the entire world wide Jewish population.
Also for the record, Jews fight "holy wars" only against other the Jews. Vs. other people it is just a normal war for land or money.
Bozon
-
I see the meeting Bush/Ehud Olmert today, like a preparation for the war predicted by Ezekiel, this should take place soon and mark the beginning of the end ,
If you read the profecy below, shows clear that Persia(Iran), is going to attack Israel, pushing maybe other nations,
Hard to belive !?
Ezekiel predicted the restauration of the Israel, ( see bellow from Bible ,Ezekiel 25), and was right, why would he lie about this war!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Prophecy Against Gog
38:1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech [1] and Tubal, and prophesy against him 3 and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech [2] and Tubal. 4 And I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great host, all of them with buckler and shield, wielding swords. 5 Persia, Cush, and Put are with them.
-------
The Lord Will Restore Israel
25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name. 26 They shall forget their shame and all the treachery they have practiced against me, when they dwell securely in their land with none to make them afraid, 27 when I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands, and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations. 28 Then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, because I sent them into exile among the nations and then assembled them into their own land. I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore. 29 And I will not hide my face anymore from them, when I pour out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord God.”
-
You guys read me wrong. I don't think Israel will be the aggressor. Islamic fundamentalists would attack, Israel will strike back. It will escalate, nukes will fly, lots of them.
I don't think the jewish voting population make the demand, but rather those in very influential positions and there are a lot in banking, industry and Wall Street.
-
oh, you mean the short ones with big noses smoking cigars
-
Lazersailor... for one who dices hollywood most of/all the time, you sure seem to be living in a movie... or at least seem to hang on to every cliche out there...
-
The truth about the US/Israeli relationship. (http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf)
-
The Israel lobby in the US is very powerfull indeed.
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8730
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html
The political analysts in the second article were accused of anti-semitism. :lol
-
Originally posted by ghi
I see the meeting Bush/Ehud Olmert today, like a preparation for the war predicted by Ezekiel, this should take place soon and mark the beginning of the end
Not as long as that Mosque stands in place of the old temple. I have not heard any credible sources plan to detroy it and rebuild the temple yet.
-
Originally posted by Saintaw
Lazersailor... for one who dices hollywood most of/all the time, you sure seem to be living in a movie... or at least seem to hang on to every cliche out there...
I'll let this pass because you just don't live in America.
Any liberal who spends more then 10 minutes thinking about it would find the idea of liberal jews as mind baffling.
-
You'll "let this pass"? Wow... I'm impressed.
-
Alright, I'll give you an example.
A madman one day gains power. He hates your people. He takes away your guns, your rights, your dignity and your money. After doing this he marches your people into ovens, showers, and live pits to kill all of you.
Now, tell me how you could possibly NOT BE conservative after this.
-
I think we should double the military allowance to Israel. Then we should encourage them to annex a small parcel of land in western europe so that we might have a friendly ally in the fastest growing region of arab conquered territory, I was thinking ... I dunno....luxembourg maybe? then we might consider helping aquire all of hyde park next.
-
Don't need you to "explain" to me your narrow view on things... I think i got it... and that was not the point of my remark. You live in a world of heroes, fame and pink... ain't that way. It's money, power and all gray.... but perhaps, i fail to understand that because I don't live in america.
eh.
-
Sorry storch, foreigners no' welcome here! :D
-
Originally posted by rpm
We HAVE to back Isreal. The jewish population of the US demands it, not to mention it's the moral thing to do.
If we pulled all support, it would take about 30 seconds for an all out holy war the likes of which the world has never seen and never will again.
USA was not as huge a supporter of israel until the 1970s arab oil embargo when tghe french nad british decided to limit their ties with Israel due to arab pressure. So there isnt really a US historical moral obligation to support isreal to the extent we do today.
-
Originally posted by Momus--
The truth about the US/Israeli relationship. (http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf)
Thanks for posting it. I've read about this paper but now actually read it for the first time.
It confirmed my suspicions that this is a load of crap written by educated people who read alot but understand little. I will not assume they have their own ajenda although that is another possibility. They fail to understand even the most basic relationship between Israeli Jews and American Jews, not to mention the much more complicated layers. They also do not understant the 1st thing about what's going on between Israel and the Palestinians and expect Israel to be an american puppet.
Probably most americans who will read the parts about the Jewish lobby will resent them. Me, as an Israeli, read it and feel it is humiliating to the americans. Lobbying is part of any democratic political system (the gun lovers will be the 1st to tell you that). If 1.7% of the population, that have negligible voting power but employ other influence, can control your polical system in the way described there, it can only mean:
* Your political system is as corrupted as a 3rd world goverment. You can stop calling yourself a democracy and start growing bananas.
* Everybody else are a bunch of idiots no smarter than baboons.
Either way I'd be insulted.
The attitude of the American goverment toward Israel should be criticized. Most of all it should be criticized by Israel, unless we plan on becoming the 53rd star on your flag (maybe a little star of david? :) ). The way the winds are blowing, I want my goverment to keep some distance from the bear hug of the US. The old Israeli foreign policy (Ben-Gurion time) was not to allign to any side completely. I would like to see it back.
Bozon
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'll let this pass because you just don't live in America.
Any liberal who spends more then 10 minutes thinking about it would find the idea of liberal jews as mind baffling.
The majority of American Jews consider themselves moderates or liberals. Less than 25% identify themselves as conservative. 80% of US Jews that voted turned out for Gore in 2000. Even Kerry got 69% in 2004. I imagine that this is because jews tend to be of above average intelligence and education.
You only find it baffling because reality differs from your preconceptions.
A madman one day gains power. He hates your people. He takes away your guns, your rights, your dignity and your money. After doing this he marches your people into ovens, showers, and live pits to kill all of you.
....Now, tell me how you could possibly NOT BE conservative after this.
What are you talking about? Fascism was a reactionary conservative phenomenon. Try again.
-
Originally posted by bozon
It confirmed my suspicions that this is a load of crap written by educated people who read alot but understand little. Bozon
Ok, well instead of using ad hominem against the authors, tell us which particular parts are "crap" and why you think that is the case.
-
Leaches.
-
Id rather help Israel than not, but not because Jews in America demand it
-
>teh jews are teh smart and have lernt how to fite<
-
"A final reason to question Israel’s strategic value is that it does not behave like a loyal ally. Israeli officials frequently ignore US requests and renege on promises (including pledges to stop building settlements and to refrain from ‘targeted assassinations’ of Palestinian leaders). Israel has provided sensitive military technology to potential rivals like China, in what the State Department inspector-general called ‘a systematic and growing pattern of unauthorised transfers’. According to the General Accounting Office, Israel also ‘conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any ally’. In addition to the case of Jonathan Pollard, who gave Israel large quantities of classified material in the early 1980s (which it reportedly passed on to the Soviet Union in return for more exit visas for Soviet Jews), a new controversy erupted in 2004 when it was revealed that a key Pentagon official called Larry Franklin had passed classified information to an Israeli diplomat. Israel is hardly the only country that spies on the US, but its willingness to spy on its principal patron casts further doubt on its strategic value."
Butt Buddies fer life?
"No discussion of the Lobby would be complete without an examination of one of its most powerful weapons: the charge of anti-semitism. Anyone who criticises Israel’s actions or argues that pro-Israel groups have significant influence over US Middle Eastern policy – an influence AIPAC celebrates – stands a good chance of being labelled an anti-semite. Indeed, anyone who merely claims that there is an Israel Lobby runs the risk of being charged with anti-semitism, even though the Israeli media refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’. In other words, the Lobby first boasts of its influence and then attacks anyone who calls attention to it. It’s a very effective tactic: anti-semitism is something no one wants to be accused of."
Vindictive ungrateful SOB's, enh?
The following for parker & lasersailor:
As the Forward article points out, the majority of Jewish Americans don't share AIPAC's ultra-hawkishness. "Like many other American Jewish organizations, it supported the Iraq war. But 70% of American Jews oppose the Iraq war, according to a poll commission by the American Jewish Committee at the end of 2005."
As the Mearsheimer-Walt study makes evident, such is the lopsided influence of AIPAC and other pro-Israeli lobbies--their ability to control the terms of the debate, and militarize every argument--that liberal sentiments and convictions of the majority of the Jewish community become irrelevant. Seizing at a ray of optimism, the authors conclude, "Although the Lobby remains a powerful force, the adverse effects of its influence are increasingly difficult to hide. Powerful states can maintain flawed policies for quite some time, but reality cannot be ignored for ever."
Such innocence. Of course it can. This is America, after all, and in Bush Country reality can be put on hold indefinitely, until the next major distraction is staged.
Gents, we're being carefully lubed, then systematicaly screwed. By an 'Ally'.
Such a surprise.
-
Israel has provided sensitive military technology to potential rivals like China, in what the State Department inspector-general called ‘a systematic and growing pattern of unauthorised transfers’.
The US has provided sensitive military technology to potential rivals like Egypt and Saudi-Arabia.
State Department calls do not authorise anything that threatens american industries loosing sales to the Israeli companies. It forces Israeli companies to work through american companies if they want to actually sell anything.
Israel also ‘conducts the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any ally’.
The US monitors Israel using more espionage equipment more that the surrounding countries do.
In other words, the Lobby first boasts of its influence and then attacks anyone who calls attention to it.
If this is really true that it mean that both the possibilities I suggested earlier are possible simultaniously: American goverment is both corrupt AND stupid.
Momus, I don't have the time now, I'll type a long explanation later.
Bozon
-
If this is really true that it mean that both the possibilities I suggested earlier are possible simultaniously: American goverment is both corrupt AND stupid.
Yer expecting an argument? You live under a rock or something?
-
Originally posted by Momus--
The majority of American Jews consider themselves moderates or liberals. Less than 25% identify themselves as conservative. 80% of US Jews that voted turned out for Gore in 2000. Even Kerry got 69% in 2004. I imagine that this is because jews tend to be of above average intelligence and education.
You only find it baffling because reality differs from your preconceptions.
What are you talking about? Fascism was a reactionary conservative phenomenon. Try again.
Wrong. Painfully wrong.
Fascism is a political faction that lies on neither side of the political spectrum. Fascism can be simply defined as a drive for more power, through any means.
The preconception is YOU thinking that Fascism is extreme right wingedness.
It is another misconception to assume that anyone who is intelligent is a liberal. It is a ploy by you to try to justify yourself as a liberal, and to try to guilt other people into doing it.
"You only find it baffling because reality differs from your preconceptions." I find it baffling how many jews refuse to acknowledge history. If you say anything bad about the holocaust, and you are immediately crucified. If you say anything similar to the events and happenings that lead up to it and no one bats an eye.
-
laser, these are the folks you might be looking for.. and they stand in defiance of the majority of liberal american jewish political groups. RABID defiance.. and in fact they make the NRA look like a buncha liberal puzzies.
these guys get it.. and I KNOW where they stand.
check 'em out here;
http://www.jpfo.org/
-
The term "Nazi" is a nickname for the "National Socialist" party. Two of their main tenants were government run schools and gun control. So you have a political party based upon socialism that wants to run the schools and confiscate the guns.
Leave it to the AH-BBS-OC to think those positions equal conservatism, must be a product of the government schools.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wrong. Painfully wrong.
Fascism is a political faction that lies on neither side of the political spectrum. Fascism can be simply defined as a drive for more power, through any means.
The preconception is YOU thinking that Fascism is extreme right wingedness.
The traditional political spectrum has communism and socialism on the left with fascism and conservatism on the right. That particular chart seems to have fell out of fashion. The left/right "perception" certainly can't apply to the two dimensional charts used today.
-
Countries that helped the jews or simply let them be prospered, countries that persecuted them fell.
Look it up in ur history books if you don`t belive me.
-
The traditional political spectrum has communism and socialism on the left with fascism and conservatism on the right. That particular chart seems to have fell out of fashion. The left/right "perception" certainly can't apply to the two dimensional charts used today.
I am rather upset that you believe this also.
Communism is to liberalism as Reactionism is the Conservatism. I've already defined what Fascism is. Fascism is apolitical. All sides can use or be fascist.
I'll say it again, because obviously once is not enough. Fascism is the drive to do anything to gain ultimate power. Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Hitler. All were fascists, and all were on different sides of the spectrum.
-
i think the word you're looking for is authoritarian.
the dictionary definition of fascism contains repeated use of the phrase "right wing"
that being said, i'd say it is pretty hard to tell the difference between the extremes of undemocratic left & right wing .gov, but what do i know, i've only ever lived in the US. whatever i've read & believed in a book is more likely than not someone's jaded propoganda
-
No. I'm not. Authoritarian is the ultimate goal. Fascism is the method to get there.
You can rewrite as many dictionaries as you want, that doesn't change reality.
Liberals generally want more government control, republicans want less. IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE FOR EXTREME REPUBLICANS TO WANT GOVERNMENT TO HAVE ULTIMATE CONTROL.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
republicans want less.
Not the republicans of today.
-
OOOooo-OOOOOooh I know the answer to this one; we'd rather have scrappy, tough as nails allies as opposed to wishy washy ones. The French have shot more members of our military than the Israelis have, yet we're still friends with them (I think)
-
See Rule #4
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I am rather upset that you believe this also.
It's not about belief. It's about how the political spectrum used to be taught. Hence the word, "traditional". These terms have evolved over time.
-
Heh. Anyone who believes for one second that even one of our "allies" is not spying on us 24/7 is remarkably naive. What, you expect them to just believe us when we tell them what we are doing? LOL Even American citizens dont believe our government when they tell us what they are doing. I hardly expect someone from another country to believe it, allied or not.
-
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Countries that helped the jews or simply let them be prospered, countries that persecuted them fell.
Look it up in ur history books if you don`t belive me.
that comes with God's promise to Abraham. The same God most deny even exists.
-
Amen!
TY Storch, I could not have said it better with as less words!
:aok
Mac
-
i could, leave out "same" & "even". 14% efficiency increase.
-
It's not about belief. It's about how the political spectrum used to be taught. Hence the word, "traditional". These terms have evolved over time.
How odd. When I went through, it was taught exactly how it should be. By a proclaimed liberal teacher, no less.
My sister has also seen the same thing. She has been taught the same way.
The problem is the other teachers who interchangeably use the word "Fascism" for "Reactionism," thus causing people to believe that Fascism is a right wing enterprise. Never once did I have a history or government teacher / professor ever use the word wrongly.
However, every other liberal I've come across has used it wrong.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
How odd. When I went through, it was taught exactly how it should be.
You're right. Everything that was taught before and everything that will be taught after you went through was or will be wrong. :rolleyes:
-
Fine, since you feel like being so odd about it, we'll play a little game.
You list off all the major characteristics of Fascism, and I'll link those characteristics to countries and times at which they apply. After this you'll understand the true definition of Fascism.
Go.
-
leather undergarments
-
Riding crops?
-
Originally posted by Debonair
leather undergarments
Britain?
-
britain is fascist?
what are we waiting for, lets go pwn 'en
-
I don't really care about the "true definition of Fascism."
I simply stated (and you can scroll up to re-read) that in the traditional single axis model, Fascism is on the right. Quite obviously, you disagree with this model. That's a fine thing, but it's really beside the point.
-
Traditional single axis model?
No. It's just that you refuse to acknowledge what fascism truly is. You also refuse to acknowledge that some people would want something as terrible as fascism portrayed as the extreme right.
-
people who wear glass dont have bad eyes because to say otherwise would reflect poorly on lou paterno
-
if you ask that question of the right sort of republican, they'll give you religious reasons amongst others. the last time I heard it stated plainly was at the, I'm going to get the name wrong, and it was televised just prior to the last convention, The Republician Leadership Conference. Haley Barbour was the chairman, First and just about anyone who was anyone was there.
hap
-
*sigh*
nothin like dealin with the real issues, enh; kids?
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Traditional single axis model?
No. It's just that you refuse to acknowledge what fascism truly is. You also refuse to acknowledge that some people would want something as terrible as fascism portrayed as the extreme right.
Go back and re-read my posts. Otherwise, you can go right on along carrying on both sides of this "argument".
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wrong. Painfully wrong.
Fascism is a political faction that lies on neither side of the political spectrum. Fascism can be simply defined as a drive for more power, through any means.
It's quite obvious that you don't know what you're talking about. You can screech about a worthless theoretical model if you like, but history proves you wrong.
All three European manifestations of fascism, that is the Hitler regime, the Mussolini regime and the Franco regime were all underpinned by conservative elements; that is to say by large business interests, by the military establishment and by social conservative and nationalist movements. Any evidence of a "socialist" element to these movements is only skin deep and is betrayed by events themselves, for example in the Night of the Long Knives where most left-wing Nazi elements were purged, or in Franco's marginalization of Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera's Phalange by its absorption into the Movimiento Nacional. If these movements were left wing in nature, then why did they expend considerable energy on purging liberal, social democrat, socialist and communist elements within their respective host societies to the extent of carrying out mass killings equal in nature if not in quantity to those levelled against european jewry? Where are the corresponding attacks against conservative interests?
The preconception is YOU thinking that Fascism is extreme right wingedness.
Not a preconception at all but a conclusion based on the facts, namely that facist movements historically drew their most effective support from conservative elements and attempted to realize extreme right-nationalist agendas.
It is another misconception to assume that anyone who is intelligent is a liberal. It is a ploy by you to try to justify yourself as a liberal, and to try to guilt other people into doing it.
Actually, you're doing a good enough of job of proving a semi-humourous point I made without any further input on my part. "To guilt"? What kind of mangled language is that?
"You only find it baffling because reality differs from your preconceptions." I find it baffling how many jews refuse to acknowledge history. If you say anything bad about the holocaust, and you are immediately crucified. If you say anything similar to the events and happenings that lead up to it and no one bats an eye.
Come again? You think that many jews don't acknowledge the holocaust? Or are you equating the traditional adherence of american jews to the political centre-left with holocaust denial? You might want to think about that one again.
Originally posted by Edbert1
The term "Nazi" is a nickname for the "National Socialist" party. Two of their main tenants were government run schools and gun control. So you have a political party based upon socialism that wants to run the schools and confiscate the guns.
Leave it to the AH-BBS-OC to think those positions equal conservatism, must be a product of the government schools.
You're making the mistake that just becuase an organization calls itself "socialist" that it is really left wing in nature, in much the same way that many now defunct communist regimes described themselves as "Democratic" but were nothing of the sort. Social education and gun control are not an exclusive characteristic of left wing societies. Socialism is primarily concerned with state control of the means of production; that is to say of industry, of banking, of agriculture etc. You should note that in the three fascist societies that I describe above all of these factors remained solidly in private ownership.
-
LOL, the discussion is fundamentally flawed. You would need to determine not if fascism is extreme right or extreme left...but extreme right or extreme left of what center.
-
actually.. I thought it was about Israels status as Prime Leach.
-
Fascism.
f a s c i s m
Fascism
A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism.
Ok, when do I get a promotion?
-
Originally posted by Hangtime
actually.. I thought it was about Israels status as Prime Leach.
u seem to be in the minority with that oppinion
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Fascism.
f a s c i s m
Fascism
A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism.
Ok, when do I get a promotion?
Hmm, you just described Latin America! :)
-
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
u seem to be in the minority with that oppinion
LOL.. and i suspect yer a ferngi.
-
Originally posted by Momus--
Where are the corresponding attacks against conservative interests?
Took a few years, but help arrived.
(http://hsgm.free.fr/recent2/raidb17berlin.jpg)