Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LEDPIG on May 24, 2006, 08:00:13 AM
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How many actual pilots fly the game? It seems to take so much skill to fly this game i've always wondered how non pilots can fly it. Just to understand the aerodynamics or even read the instruments you'd have to go to ground school. So who are you out there when'd you start flying in what capacity and ratings, introduce yourself? Me i'm just a private pilot with a good bit of instrument training, before that financial winfall that seems to stop a lot of private pilots from gettin flight time. So who are you?:D
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most of the "real" pilots suck at dogfighting these cartoon planes. but to be fair, the "gud" pilots in the game might suck at flying a real plane... too many frickkin' rules!!
:noid
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WOW !!! ... from out of the shadows he emerges.
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Yep shanes right. My fligth instructor and I became good friends. I had him over once to try AH out and while he thought it was cool he hated the game.
Another good friend, was a Nazy A4 pilot, while he liked the game he also had a hard time flying without the feeling.
The reason many real pilots don't like the game at first is the lack of seat of your pants feel. They are always over pulling and over correcting, not to mention having to look around with your thumb. It is kinda a total different mind set.
As for the noobs learing to fly, well it's not rocket science. IMH.
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The reason many real pilots don't like the game at first is the lack of seat of your pants feel.
Bingo!
When flying, and especially during ACM, the aircraft talks to you....thru your bellybutton and hands :) Even after 5 years in this game, I still have problems with that......or it's just that I sux!:aok
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No real pilots play this game anyway. They're too busy making lots of money and getting hundreds if not thousands of women to waste time with a stupid game.
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i learned the instroments working on helicopters for the marine corps
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Originally posted by mars01
Another good friend, was a Nazy A4 pilot, while he liked the game he also had a hard time flying without the feeling.
I thought the Nazy's had the 262.... when did they get the A4??
:D
Balsy
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Interesting. My son flew Airwarrior with me when he was younger. I bought him a flight in a Cessna 152 and the instructor said he was a 'natural' Having flown the flight sims helped him in how it seemed normal to him to go in flight.
I took lessons when I was in high school all those years ago now. I don't know that it has an affect either way on how I 'fly' AH.
Our old AW buddy Earl who had 250 combat missions in the MTO and another 250 flying A1s in Vietnam as an Advisor said flying the sims was nothing like flying the real thing. He also said that RR in Airwarrior flew closer to the real thing then FR, but he said it quietly :)
That was because of the lack of 'feel' as he put it. RR compensated for that lack of 'feel'
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I have to agree with all the above. I have maybe 14,000 hours in civil aircraft including
gliders, floats, helicopters, corporate and heavy transport jets. I still suck at dogfighting but I takeoff and land really well.
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quote:
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Originally posted by mars01
Another good friend, was a Nazy A4 pilot, while he liked the game he also had a hard time flying without the feeling.
(http://www.dancollinscartoons.com/Greeting cards 2/Feelings-01_fs.jpg)
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Heya Ledpig!
Since being discharged from the service as a disabled vet, I'm now letting the VA 'rehabilitate' me for civilian life :D . I was instructed to pick something I was interested in and would provide an income for me and my family. Long story short: I decided to work towards my CFI, certified flight instructor.
I flew AH for a few years before I actually climbed into a cockpit. I think I made my instructor nervous asking him if neg G's would choke off a Cessna 172's engine. By the way, it does. And THAT made him even more nervous... :lol
Still can't get 'em to do an Immelman though!
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My brother-in-law is an instructor and his father has a strip in the backyard. Last summer I went to visit and he took me up in their cub. He's been over to my house and flown on AH and knew I was into the Flight sim pretty heavy. So, when we reached 3k he asked if I wanted to give her a go. He was amazed at how well I adjusted to the movement of the plane. Only thing he told me was keep it above 40mph and I was good. I had a blast as he let me fly for about 20 minutes. Was a dream come true! :aok
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Originally posted by Golfer
I fly low, I'm in high demand. Go 15 feet over the Rio Grande. I blow the mesquite right off the sand I'm seldom seen 'specially when I land...I'm a treetop flyer
Stephen Stills! Love that song!
People been askin' me where'd ya learn to
Fly that way
Was over in Viet Nam
Chasin' N.V.A.
The government taught me
An' they taught me right
Stay down under the treeline
You might be all right
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Yeah people going from Flight Sim to Real deal are in much better shape than those that go in cold.
The only thing you have to watch for with the sim first guys, is they sometimes concentrate on the instruments more than outside. And 80% of the Private is about learing the sight picture outside the window as well as the feel.
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Originally posted by mars01
Yeah people going from Flight Sim to Real deal are in much better shape than those that go in cold.
The only thing you have to watch for with the sim first guys, is they sometimes concentrate on the instruments more than outside. And 80% of the Private is about learing the sight picture outside the window as well as the feel.
Yep....During my primary (T-34's) and intermediate training (T-2's) all instrument training started out in a sim before moving on to the aircraft. They didn't have visual sims. In advanced (T-45's) 90% to everything was trained first in the sim (visual), then in the aircraft.
Hell....you had to have something like 20-25 simulator flights, and one is a ballbuster checkride, before your even allowed in the front seat of the Tomcat.:aok
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Originally posted by mars01
The only thing you have to watch for with the sim first guys, is they sometimes concentrate on the instruments more than outside. And 80% of the Private is about learing the sight picture outside the window as well as the feel.
YES!~! I get yelled at for that all the time. Although I'm an ace "under the hood" :aok (It's something you wear on your head that makes you fly with instruments only, you can't see outside the plane...)
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Originally posted by DAVENRINO
I have to agree with all the above. I have maybe 14,000 hours in civil aircraft including gliders, floats, helicopters, corporate and heavy transport jets. I still suck at dogfighting but I takeoff and land really well.
You gotta get outa the habit standard rate turns. :)
Actually, if you haven't been thru some sort of military training or actually seen the maneuvers/tactics from the seat its sometimes hard to imagine just what it is your trying to accomplish. All kinds a civil, a couple a years doing a lil training in the 72-100/200's and a lil A4M stuff here.
You can spend years in a sim dying all the time and never quite "get it" because the tactics have never been explained.
Oh yeah, shaking a screen to simulate stall buffet in a sim IMHO allows you to "feel" your eyeballs bounce around. LOL It's a pity that the force feedback crap was just that...crap. There is some guys that make a cockpit outa large pvc pipe that is tied to your stick movement. When you pull the stick the whole contraption pitches up some. Move stick right and your seat (and you) rolls to right. They haven't figured out yaw yet...I suppose you could begin to "feel" the movement somement but, alas, not the g's. I wonder what might happen if you got a bad case of the yanks when taking some unexpected hits from your 6. Could you backflip out the cockpit? :)
Ren
The Damned
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That's the thing that gets me about the sim, you can't look around and get a perfect sight picture. Plus to be a civilian pilot there's little aerobatics involved to get your private licsence. About the only thing somewhat aerobatic is, stalls unusual attitude training, which is really a joke. My instructors never seemed to put me in a serious situaton. When i was training for the instrument, i spent alot of time in a large simulator that sat in a room. The view was crap, it just had a small screen, but it was used mostly to practice instrument approaches. Most of these sim only pilot's beat me because i think they were bread on the computer, whereas i'm comparing it to real life, since i can't see like i'm used to, i get killed repeatedly. Like one of the other pilots said i can take off and land very well, but everything else is hard, i see i'm not alone:)
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Originally posted by 1Duke1
Yep....During my primary (T-34's) and intermediate training (T-2's) all instrument training started out in a sim before moving on to the aircraft. They didn't have visual sims. In advanced (T-45's) 90% to everything was trained first in the sim (visual), then in the aircraft.
Hell....you had to have something like 20-25 simulator flights, and one is a ballbuster checkride, before your even allowed in the front seat of the Tomcat.:aok
1Duke1 are you a tomcat pilot? I'd love to hear more about that and your feelings about the game?:D
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You have a squadie that is a falcon pilot ;)
Edit: check your email
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It depends...
I have been flying "real" about 14 years, last 10 years only aerobatics +check rides to keep PPL.
I have "never" had any problems to "fly" WB1,10/AH/WW2OL. Feeling of beeing on "air" is about there(sims). About 10years online, i still feel the hetic of dogfite/b&z/energyfite,you never get/want to do it in RL. I know it might be a "BIT" different aspect to to see"simulations" and how planes should fly to people who have only gameperspecive ;-)) not going to write it right ;-). In RL you had /have only 1 life and in most cases hardly ever saw a con/target.
happy hunting
PS 172 can do immelman about easy, all you need is speed
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Originally posted by -pjk--
PS 172 can do immelman about easy, all you need is speed
Okies...I bet it can! Although that would be close to Vne I bet? Naw, prolly around 120kts it'll have enough juice to go over the top and roll level. Definately not rated for it, lol...but that doesn't stop it from happening :eek:
We've switched to Diamonds 1/2-way through now. Gotta tell ya, that DA-20 is a FUN plane after tooling around in 172's for a month. Been in that and the -40 depending on the schedule; very nice starter a/c. I should have my PPL in June, and then I start instrument...progressing after that to multi- and commercial.
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Good luck Warspawn!!:aok Got my private and believe me the first few months alone with your licsence will be some of the happiest in your life:D
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Commercial, Instument, Flight Instructor: Helicopter Rotorcraft, Single Engine Land, Multi-Engine Land.
Naval Aviator from 1987 to 1993. Flew Commercially for 8 years flying mostly Helicopters but some Citation Jet time. I started when I was 16 in a 152 aerobat. Now unfortunately the only flying I get to do is in Ace's, and I SUCK in Ace's:):):o
I have nearly 4,000 hours total time, 400 Hrs actual Instrument and WAY too much OverWater time....LOL
For any of you who haven't gone up in a helicopter, I strongly suggest you do. It is by far the MOST fun you will ever have with your clothes on!:):o
NAVCAD
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1Duke1
When did you go through flight school? I was at P-cola from Feb 88 to June 89.
NAVCAD
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Before I got my license I spent alot of time playing flight sim's such as MS flight sim and it helped me ALOT. Although it doesn't give you the "real" feel in the seat of your pants it does familiarize you with the instruments, radio's and general airport procedure's. In my ground school class we had 15 and 4 of us spent time playing flight sim's before the class started and it was obvious that we were well ahead of those that didn't.
I only have about 530 hours in the air but, there is no question it is still the most gratifying thing I will ever do. AH is fun but, you can't replace the real thing.
Having said that those of you that have always wanted to get your license but just haven't made the time for it. DO IT, If a schmuck like me can do it you can too. :D
You won't regret it. :aok
Bucky73
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just a 172 pilot here, got my private about 6-7 months ago, working on twin engine rating now
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Several pilots in our squad, ledpig, including me with a private ticket, but I am not current with it. Too many other toys and our frequently crappy weather kept me from flying frequently enough to feel safe. Maybe someday if I sell the boat and move somewhere with better weather, I'll get current again.
:D
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Originally posted by NAVCAD
For any of you who haven't gone up in a helicopter, I strongly suggest you do. It is by far the MOST fun you will ever have with your clothes on!:):o
NAVCAD
I have to agree. I have about 2500 helo in FH1100, BELL 206, HUGHES 500, and AUGUSTA 109 including 1000 hours volcano time at Mt. St. Helens.:D I even got my CFII in the Augusta but never instructed in helos.
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NAV...you were way before me sir :) Lateraled from the SWO side in 98, winged in 2000 out of Meridian.
LED, yes I was, but for too short a time. I never made it to an operational squadron, DQ'ing during CV night quals. Suffice it to say, I miss it.
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I flew flight sims first and then the real thing. Now if only my CRJ had Guns!
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1Duke1
Sorry to here about D.Q. Personally I loved the T-34C. What an awesome plane! Easy to learn, VERY forgiving, and it would do just about everything you asked of it.
I would love to get a surplus T-34C when they start becomming avail.
NAVCAD
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Nav, what did you fly in the Navy?
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Stik17 flew A4's Phantom's and Hornets in the Navy :aok
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I, too, would love to hear more perspective from the military pilots who fly Aces High.
My opinion, having done a very small amount of civilian flying and having flown once at Air Combat USA, is that, once you are used to the different sensory modality of Aces High (feeling stalls and g's with auditory and visual ques instead of "seat of the pants" gues), Aces High is very close to reality.
In Air Combat USA, I went with two other folks: one an experienced Air Warrior pilot with very little time in real planes and one a commercially rated pilot with thousands of hours and no time in Air Warrior. The two of us Air Warrior pilots handily beat the commercial pilot. And that was back in the Air Warrior days. Aces High is much more realistic in its feel than Air Warrior was in those days.
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Originally posted by Shane
most of the "real" pilots suck at dogfighting these cartoon planes. but to be fair, the "gud" pilots in the game might suck at flying a real plane... too many frickkin' rules!!
:noid
Aggree. I'm suck how ever. :(
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NAVCAD,
there is a popular turboprop conversion for Bonanzas, i forget the name of it, but i'm sure google will find it for you, or ask on the AOPA BBS. i was looking at it a few weeks ago, if the true performance is anywhere near whats promised, it makes an impressive aircraft.
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Originally posted by Debonair
NAVCAD,
there is a popular turboprop conversion for Bonanzas, i forget the name of it, but i'm sure google will find it for you, or ask on the AOPA BBS. i was looking at it a few weeks ago, if the true performance is anywhere near whats promised, it makes an impressive aircraft.
Jaguar. Only problem is they don't put bigger fuel caps on the damn thing so it takes a long long long time to fuel one with a regular jet fuel nozzle on "trickle" mode if you don't have a spare avgas nozzle attached to your jet truck.
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Originally posted by Brooke
I, too, would love to hear more perspective from the military pilots who fly Aces High.
My opinion, having done a very small amount of civilian flying and having flown once at Air Combat USA, is that, once you are used to the different sensory modality of Aces High (feeling stalls and g's with auditory and visual ques instead of "seat of the pants" gues), Aces High is very close to reality.
In Air Combat USA, I went with two other folks: one an experienced Air Warrior pilot with very little time in real planes and one a commercially rated pilot with thousands of hours and no time in Air Warrior. The two of us Air Warrior pilots handily beat the commercial pilot. And that was back in the Air Warrior days. Aces High is much more realistic in its feel than Air Warrior was in those days.
Real air combat is a mental game all about tactics, aircraft max performance and weapon systems (and teamwork). This is not something you'd learn from commercial/General Aviation backgrounds unless you're into aerobatics. These civilian training pipelines teach that straight and level is good (gag!) and 4,000 hours of straight and level doesn't teach you much about a rolling scissors so I'm not surprised the commercial pilot didn't do so well.
AH actually does an outstanding job in simulating aircraft characteristics and a combat environment...e management, gunnery, turn performance, tactics...they're all there but, alas, no g and no missiles (I want my Phoenix man). If I were still active duty I'd put several computers with AH on them in my ready room for my new Junior Officers for BFM instruction. (Of course they might learn to use the trim switch to check six when they're back in a real plane which wouldn't work out real well.) It is really hard to explain certain elements of performance...when it's best to go verticle, when it's best to extend, rolling scissors, reversals, etc., and for all the millions of dollars the military has put into sims AH provides one of the best models I've seen to learn the basics. It's cheap, simple and you can do it over and over again until you do it right at no additional cost to the taxpayer.
As far as actual pilots having problems with AH, I think the problem is probably frustration and habit patterns not the switchology. If you can learn to fly a carrier approach, with one engine out, low fuel, at night, with the deck moving in ****ty weather and still get a 3 wire then you can learn to use a hat switch for your views. I think the problem is probably more that pilots expect to step into AH and be THE Jedi master kicking teenage geek butt and it's just not going to happen. It's still a game and you've got to learn the gamey parts and you also have to contend with the fact that there are some guys that play this that really are good, I often wonder how some of them would do in a real plane. You also have to break years of habit patterns and muscle memory. The first time I tried I gave it a month and quit, it was just too damn frustrating. I restarted AH a year later but I still catch myself turning my head to check six...I kid you not...so if you're on my six and I don't do anything it's probably because I'm looking at the wall behind me.
Mace
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Originally posted by Mace2004
These civilian training pipelines teach that straight and level is good (gag!) and 4,000 hours of straight and level doesn't teach you much about a rolling scissors so I'm not surprised the commercial pilot didn't do so well.
True but an hour of straight and level pays more than an hour of having a blast pulling Gs.;)
Seriously, I wish I could have experienced flying fighters. It is about the only aspect missing from my aviation experience. I really did enjoy the bit of aerobatics I have done in the Great Lakes and Pitts S2B. The Great Lakes open cockpit really added to the thrill even if it didn't perform anything like the Pitts.
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Originally posted by DAVENRINO
True but an hour of straight and level pays more than an hour of having a blast pulling Gs.;)
How absolutely true that i$...but of course I can't count the number of times I thought about how unbelievable it was that the Navy actually paid me anything at all to do it!
:aok
Mace
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Some things I still do not translate for me.
Flying the vertical line in AH while looking off one wing, just seems a lot harder in AH than the real planes.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Some things I still do not translate for me.
Flying the vertical line in AH while looking off one wing, just seems a lot harder in AH than the real planes.
HiTech
Only way to simulate that is a motion cued platform and enclosed pit. An open simpit ruins the effect with stationary references, but an enclosed pit really only need 20-30 degrees of motion to trick the player's brain. On top of that, iirc, there's only 1 simulator in the world that can accurately reproduce sink rate... and it's a few stories tall. Life is good when you can feel AoA & torque :) These simpits are why I've been crying for a shared memory file since I started. :lol
The platform somebody mentioned earlier that used mechanical leverage was the Joyrider. It can be built for under $100, and I'd say you get alittle more than you pay for. I've got the plans, tried a friends, but haven't built my own. Next step up was the original SimCraft. Same gimballed frame concept as the Joyrider, but instead of mechanical leverage based around a hacked up joystick, it's powered by pnuematic cylinders' pressure differential supplied by a wet-dry vaccuum, some digital valves, and a USB port. It can be built for under $1000, and I've seen videos of it working well with Il-2, FS2004, & X-Plane. Soon the SimCraft is coming out, and the lower end models will cost about the same as the built-it-yourself versions (of course, there's "accessories" available). I can't wait :)
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well..
All during my flight instruction ..my instructor to this day still believes I was an F-4 Jock out of George just pullin his leg.
Solo'd the 172 after 7 hrs dual, it just wasn't anywhere near as hard as landing an A-26 with an engine out and bandits in the pattern.
Placed 3rd in spot landing contest in my trusty Four-Zero Romeo 'snaggletooth' 172 ..was at 2hr total dual time then.
Buzzed some radio towers north of Madera in a PT-17 ..was havin a bit of fun 100 or so feet AGL, had all of 3hrs dual then.. owner was CFI in type.
Lost a race to a Falcon (the bird, not the car) in an Aeronca Champ when he put his nose down and accelerated away from us. Had 4 hrs dual then.
Lee Lauderback didn't beleive I only had 17 hrs dual (18 after the hour in Crazy Horse).. I don't think he believes it to this day. We did a full aerobatic program at 4+ G, including mock firing passes at SAM sites over the Naval Weapon Training Center with a below the treetops run down the target runway there at ~400mph. I felt 'at home' .. all the numbers matched what I did in AW years ago.
The sim time helped me with 'site picture' of what a proper approach looked like, ..and dealin with SA - bandits helped a LOT with my first solo approach, I aborted when a fast mover came in low to my right un-announced and a sight-seer came head on during base (he was flyin right pattern instead of left ..nimrod never checked in on local or looked at the windsock and pattern arrow on the ground below)
.. wife told me Mike (my instructor) was a bit 'wired' watchin it all unfold, I just powered on, retracted flaps, and climbed out on runway heading, offset right so I could see what the fast mover was gonna do. The head-on nimrod touched down about half runway length behind fast mover who had touched down and was fast taxiing to last turn-off.. some hot-rod homebuilt :)
Second approach was uneventful :)
Not even tracers whippin by.
Sim time helped tremendously ..and I know it cut cost of licensing tremendously ..flight time was $55/hr then in 'snaggletooth'
-GE
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Didn't Accuflight, the flight simulator company now in stasis, use the Aces High kernal for its product?
They had their pick of simulator software, world wide, and they chose to use HiTech's. I think that says something.
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Originally posted by DaYooper
Didn't Accuflight, the flight simulator company now in stasis, use the Aces High kernal for its product?
They had their pick of simulator software, world wide, and they chose to use HiTech's. I think that says something.
Yup,
Sim Pits are up at the Niagra Air Museum.
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
How many actual pilots fly the game? It seems to take so much skill to fly this game i've always wondered how non pilots can fly it. Just to understand the aerodynamics or even read the instruments you'd have to go to ground school. So who are you out there when'd you start flying in what capacity and ratings, introduce yourself? Me i'm just a private pilot with a good bit of instrument training, before that financial winfall that seems to stop a lot of private pilots from gettin flight time. So who are you?:D
I'm a Private pilot SEL about 140 hours. Nuttin much.
Currently inactive due to fuel prices.
I started simming before I started flying IRL and my instructors always commented on my natural feel for many things. I admit, my early flight days were in fact complicated by an over reliance on instruments... But since then I've managed to make the two worlds meld.
While I consider myself a good pilot for my hours in real life, I think I'm very capable in the sim. And as was pointed out earlier in the thread... No matter what happens in the fight, if I make it home, you better believe its a nice landing. That is an art you only master by doing it for real.
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Also Stik17 had 2 mig kills in Vietnam.......
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Originally posted by Warspawn
Heya Ledpig!
Since being discharged from the service as a disabled vet, I'm now letting the VA 'rehabilitate' me for civilian life :D . I was instructed to pick something I was interested in and would provide an income for me and my family. Long story short: I decided to work towards my CFI, certified flight instructor.
I flew AH for a few years before I actually climbed into a cockpit. I think I made my instructor nervous asking him if neg G's would choke off a Cessna 172's engine. By the way, it does. And THAT made him even more nervous... :lol
Still can't get 'em to do an Immelman though!
:rofl
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"Lost a race to a Flacon. The bird not the car..."
Man some of these stories gave me a good laugh right when I needed it
still giggling and wiping tearsof laugher from my eyes
Thanks
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In my squad we have 5 real pilots. warpy, 1pete1, apsara, Triumph, and AlleyCat. They all do very well. After playing the game for 1 year my 8 year old son (rasquel) has the controls the majority of the time while airborne in the 172.
Triumph "RULES"
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Originally posted by hitech
Some things I still do not translate for me.
Flying the vertical line in AH while looking off one wing, just seems a lot harder in AH than the real planes.
HiTech
Hence why a hammer head (stall turn) is probably one of the hardest things to do in AH. At least it is for me. :)
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I'm meddog. I hold an ATP certificate in multiengine aircraft and a commercial certificate in single engine aircraft. I started flying Helicopters in the Army in early 80's and got my fixed wing licenses in the early 90's. I was a flight instructor for about 4 years and flying twins 100-150 miles off the Virginia Coast clearing aircraft and surface vessels from Warning areas for the Navy and NASA until I was hired by an Air Charter operation flying Barons, King Airs and Lear Jets. Then I was hired by US Airways to fly Dash-8s until I resigned to care for my family.
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Mace2004
restarted AH a year later but I still catch myself turning my head to check six...I kid you not...so if you're on my six and I don't do anything it's probably because I'm looking at the wall behind me.
Mace, if you haven't tried TrackIR you might give it a whirl. The muscle memory will have to be toned down a bit, but you still look in the directions you normally would. It takes a little getting used to, but I was landing hits after a week. And if your muscle memory just won't forget, then don't use an aggessive setting, but the mildest possible. I don't see how I ever enjoyed the game before I bought one in Dec.
Track IR (http://www.naturalpoint.com/trackir/)
Far as the main differences between AH and real flight, as I told my brother-in-law F-15 jock:
No G's, no oxygen, no funerals, but a lot of fun.
Best Regards
Cement
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Thanks for the recommendation Hacksaw. I have a squadmate that has one and he can't stand it so it seems to be you either love it or hate it. Haven't heard anyone that thinks it's just "OK". I might make an offer and see if my buddy wants to part with his. Maybe it'll work for me.
Mace