Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: cav58d on May 26, 2006, 08:06:29 PM
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I say time and time again...The A-20 NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO UP WITHOUT ORDS...Currently the A-20 is a hangar queen when ords is disabled...This is wrong...8 forward firing MG's surely qualify this aircraft as a legit ground attack airplane...Now heres the PUNCH to my arguement...With the current set up the AR234, IL-2, JU-88, D3A and SBD are all aircraft able to be selected without ords!!!!!!!!! Does anyone else not find this wrong???? Yea, the AR-234 was used for recon...Fine....The Il-2 has a 32mm or whatever size cannon...understandable...(but what differentiates (sp) the IL2 from the A-20 as an attacker without ords? Is it just the cannon????)
Anyways...yea I understand the 234 and IL2....BUT the JU-88!!! And even more so the D3A and SBD!!!! The D3a Has 2x50's and I believe 2x30's!...I dont even know what the D3A has but its not anything significant enough to categorize it has a legit attacker without ords!
HTC...Please just give a responce! If it's no then fine...Case closed...But I think theres enough compelling arguements for your staff to atleast re-think this...
Cav-:furious
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Wouldn't that make the A20 a figher/bomber, not a bomber? Thus if the FH were down (the only reason you take a bomber from a capped field) you wouldn't get the A20 anywyas.
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No...Does that make the IL2/AR234/D3A, JU, SBD Fighter Bombers? Ofcourse not...Without ords the A-20 can Kill jeeps, m3's, m8's and turrett Osti's (pretty much kill)...Its 8 forward firing .50's make it a valid ground attack aircraft when ords is not available...
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RE-read your post again. Have a beer or two. Then google yourself silly.
:aok :rolleyes:
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What he's saying is, if you can up bombers like the Il-2 with no ord, you should be able to take the A-20 as well. And I agree. However, I think you are beating your head against a wall cav. You know as well as I do that HT reads the boards, the previous threads on this stayed up more than long enough to get the point across. If someone wanted to respond they would have.
Let it go before you get an ulcer lol. Have a drink, relax, let go. ;)
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As much as I hate to agree with S.O.A. on anything lately; I do. HTC has seen and digested the request I'm sure, who knows...it may even come out in the new release.
I'll go & check the BETA & see if it's in that one ( elevator music playing ) nope; still doesn't have a "no load" loadout available. But like I said, who knows what the next version might deliver. Have those drinks.
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There's another thread in Aircraft and Vehicles that says the A-20 was only available as a fighter in the night fighter version, the P-70.
Maybe HT is trying not to open a can of worms by offering it as fighter version for that reason.
After all we have had guys saying we shouldn't have the Mossie N.F. version for exactly that reason, i.e. they were night fighters, and we don't have night.
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Im not requesting the A-20 to be a fighter though...Im simply looking for it to still be an attack aircraft without ords...The aircraft has got great armor, especially cockpit...Is a twin, great weapons package, views and maneuverability...Surely if the P-51B and the FM2, aircraft with 1/2 the guns and a fraction of the ammo can be flown as ground attack airplanes, then the powerful ground pounding A-20 should be able too...
And I had those beers and lost two jets and a tempest on landing last night 4am eastern lol
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So the IL-2, TBM, D3a, and SBD are fighters, Kev?
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OK so the Mossie should be available also without ord then?
After all our model is the FB (fighter/bomber) version. Not the AB (attack/bomber) version.
But how many FB Mossies actually left the airfield without ord? Very very few I would guess.
It would only open up a can of worms.
I would say put it in as the P-70 and give us one of the N.F. Mossies.
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Originally posted by Stang
So the IL-2, TBM, D3a, and SBD are fighters, Kev?
Sorry Stang, I think I was editing as you posted.
No they aren't.
The A-20 was only available as a fighter as the P-70 night fighter.
I suppose this falls into the taking 50% fuel with drop tanks category.
If an aircraft usually left the field with ord, A-20, Mossie etc, then that should be a game requirement. Else there's no reason why you should require buffs to carry bombs either.
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I dont get why everyone is calling this a "fighter"...It is what it is...A ground attack aircraft without ords...When the IL2 ups without ords its not considered a fighter... All I want is the ability to up a heavily armoured twin aircraft with a great gun package to defend against 5/8th of the gv's that are currently in the game..
ATTACK! NOT FIGHTER! lol
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The SBD was pressed into ersatz fighter duty in the Solomons.
What I can see is a "heavy guns" loadout on the A20 and IL2 - extra ammo for the IL2 and maybe some external gunpacks on the A20.
Of course, this discussion would be moot if hangar damaged were reworked.
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Originally posted by cav58d
... All I want is the ability to up a heavily armoured twin aircraft with a great gun package to defend against 5/8th of the gv's that are currently in the game..
BF 110G-2 :D
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Originally posted by Krusty
Wouldn't that make the A20 a figher/bomber, not a bomber? Thus if the FH were down (the only reason you take a bomber from a capped field) you wouldn't get the A20 anywyas.
id think it would be a attacker/bomber
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Mike you are right but you no the deal some people are never wrong Bro. It would be nice to take the A20 up like you can a IL2 and help take back a cap base but I would not hold my breath dude:noid
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i think if the bomber hangers are down you should be able to up an A20 and pay like 10 points, 5 points if the field is being vulched.
no but really i would like to up the a20 ordless
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Quite personally I dont see the need to tie bombers to ord at all. Why should there be? I mean, all you are doing by tying bombers to their ords is making it so you can effectively keep all "bombers" on the ground without having to destroy the hangars. There is no such weakness for fighters (thank God). Taking out "ord" should mean just that. There is no "ord" available. It should have nothing to do with what planes can up from the field. Let them take up a B24 with no bombs. What is that going to do? Give the attacking fighters easier targets? lol
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The only reason I could see is to prevent bombers from upping as mobile ack platforms. I wouldn't mind that however, seeing how the vulchtards deserve it. It's much easier to knock out ord than BHs, so to kill the ord you've effectivley killed BHs.
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Theres nothing easier than to kill a buff thats trying to up at a vulched field...........HTC PLEASE RESPOND! The community has proven over the past three times this thread has been brought up that they care about this issue...
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I can see one good reason - the people who up 17's and 24's at bases under attack to soak off the attackers ammo and play ackstar. A20's don't fall into that category, though.
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A buff with at the maximum 1 pilot, and 1 gunner is by no means an ack star in my opinion...If this was such a threat, why dont guys up 17's 24's or even the deadly 20mm equipped KI-67, drop ords on runway and proceed to roll and "ack star"...Its not a problem...
The A-20 without ords is a flaw that needs to be changed
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Originally posted by cav58d
A buff with at the maximum 1 pilot, and 1 gunner is by no means an ack star in my opinion...If this was such a threat, why dont guys up 17's 24's or even the deadly 20mm equipped KI-67, drop ords on runway and proceed to roll and "ack star"...Its not a problem...
Is that an invitation? :D
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pickle ord as you roll, voila
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Originally posted by Booz
pickle ord as you roll, voila
i think the issue is that cav wants to roll an A20 when ord is down.
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No answer IS an answer.
It means "no."
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Originally posted by cav58d
Theres nothing easier than to kill a buff thats trying to up at a vulched field..........
How about 3 or 4 guys all rolling at once in different directions? Me, Morph, Stang and hub did this once. Nothing easier to get up and kill vulchtards than upping in mass.
Don't get me wrong cav, I agree 100% with you about the A20. I was just answering SoA's question about why ord is tied to bombers.
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B-25s were used as fighters sometimes. They shot down Ju-52s and Japanese transports. In fact, I even have pictures of the B-25s shooting down planes with their nose guns.
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Here's the way I look at it (applies to Mossie also) -
Was it usual for them to take-off without ord?
In the Mossies case a definate no, although Tse Tse version is the exception.
If it was usual for them to roll without ord, then give that option. If not then leave it as it is.
By removing the ord neccessity (if it was unusual to roll light) from the A-20 you are making it a P-70, a night fighter.
Same goes for the FB VI, by removing the ord necessity you'd be making it one of the NF's, another night fighter.
In that case why not just remove the ord necessity for buffs also.
As I said way at the start, it could open a big can of worms.
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You can roll a mossie in AH without any ord. :)
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Harking back to a discussion a couple months ago: if FH damage wasn't digital (on and off), then this discussion would be moot. If you could always at least lift an ENY 40 fighter you wouldn't need to use an A20 for air defense.
Besides, the Val should be perked for being an Uber Turner anyway ... hehe.
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Kev, I completely understand your argument. Consider though, if you were at a base under attack, and you had a flight of B-17's fueled, crewed, and ready for takeoff (but still waiting for bombs to be loaded), would you leave them sit on the runway or would you chance taking them up and trust your gunners and the gunners of the other planes to give you cover? There is your reason for rolling buffs without ord, even if they would not have normally done so. Any plane becomes vulch defense when you have no ords and the FH are down. And considering you can only have one gunner, and the guns wont work until they are a certain alt above the ground anyway, true bombers like the B17 and B24 and such wont be real popular anyway.
My complaint is not necessarily that the A20 should be allowed to up without ord. Its that ANY bomber should be able to, simply because loadouts are supposed to be player choice. By forcing certain bombers to take ord you remove that choice. Not only that, you effectively cancel out the need to kill the BH to prevent people from upping bombers. The few that are available make absolutely no sense. But beyond that, you can nullify the players choice to fly most bombers as base defense without destroying the BH. Why even have BHs then? Just saying. The way its configured now is wrong IMO.
However, all that is moot. Its quite obvious by now that whatever the reasoning (and I just have to assume there IS some reasoning behind it), HT is not interested in changing it right now. Whether because it will change as part of a update to certain planes, or part of the beta (eventually); or perhaps there will be no change at all because the reason he has for it to be like it is, is good enough to leave it alone and we simply dont understand it.
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Im sure glad HTC put all those man hours into our jeep
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
You can roll a mossie in AH without any ord. :)
True, but like the old Spit IX our current Mossie is a mess -
a) Only the 1st batch of FB VI had flame dampers fitted at the factory, but these had NO rocket rails.
b) The second batch onwards had rocket rails, but NO flame dampers fitted.
Our has both.
Only reason to fit them at unit level was for night ops, we have no night, and as is well known the FB VI is more famous for it's low level DAYLIGHT raids.
As for no ord option - I don't agree with it.
a) Only Mossies to roll light on a regualr basis
i) Tse Tse version
ii) Ones on V1 chasing
iii) NF versions
Ours doesnt fall into ANY of those categories.
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Consequently, the bomb aimer was often replaced by additional forward-firing machine guns mounted in a faired-over nose. The A-20's heavy firepower, maneuverability, speed and bombload made it an ideal weapon for pinpoint strikes against aircraft, hangers, and supply dumps. In formation, their heavy forward firepower could overwhelm shipboard anti-aircraft defenses
taken from http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/a20-25.html
Soviet A-20s were used in just about every conceivable role, ranging from tactical support of armored units, to low-level strafers, to torpedo bombers.
The A-20 flew in all theaters of war and was a jack of all trades attack/bomber aircraft often providing strafing, ground attack and night harassment as needed. While not as capable as a B-25 or B-26 the Havoc was a true workhorse. -http://www.ww2guide.com/a20.shtml
The evidence and direct quotes are here....Im not going to bother with the night fighter stuff because thats not what I want...I simply want to be able 2 fly my A-20 without ords..It was done in WWII..Let me do it here
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Ours doesnt fall into ANY of those categories.
But's it's a mosquito!
Originally posted by cav58d
Im sure glad HTC put all those man hours into our jeep
You watch your arse. Or' I'll get a petition together for a harley / with sidecar........ :D
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
You watch your arse. Or' I'll get a petition together for a harley / with sidecar........ :D
Where do you want my signature .:D
Bronk