Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Brenjen on May 26, 2006, 09:29:38 PM
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How many people here believe a U.S. state would/will ever be released from the Union?
I say it will never happen. States are states in perpetuity.
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I think it could happen within the next 20 years.
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You have, for your location, C.S.A.
Is that the "Confederate States of America?"
Or.... What/where is that?
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LOL!
the certainty and exubernce of youth.
"THE SOUTH SHALL RISE AGAIN!"
news fer yah, sonny-boy.. last time around the south was beat by industry. Guess where whats left of yer yankee industry is NOW.
;)
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Nah, Nash he just mispelled CSI.
Its everywhere don't you know.;)
RTR
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I think it could happen within the next 20 years.
On what issue?
It took 30 years to get from Nat Turner to SC voting to seceed. I see no movement that would cause secession anywhere near the abolish/keep slavery level.
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Complete conjecture, how about this:
Alaska's pork runs out because of excesses like the 'bridge to nowhere' amid a growing wave of resentment at how much federal money is being spent per citizen compared to other states. Alaska chats amongst itself and realizes that the natural resources it controls make it a potentially very powerful figure. That, plus the growing divide between our nanny state government and what the founding fathers envisioned.
It secedes and becomes the Alaskan Republic. It initially offers to allow the existing military bases to stay, subject to a reasonable lease. The US government declines, spinning it to look like the "rogue alaskans" kicked them out.
Florid faced congressmen hold endless hearings denouncing the "theft of rightfully owned resources" that "are the rightful legacy of the american people" and pressures Canada to impose trade sanctions while simultaneously levying a VAT of some sort on good exported to Alaska from the US.
The Alaskan Republic begins trading heavilly with the Japanese and Chinese, the petroleum and timber growing more and more valuable.
Meanwhile, the US government is under increasing pressure. The sudden loss of the petroleum reserves and the cessation of trade is showing up in the economy. Government military planners begin to look north with envious eyes....
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Oops..... wrong thread, lol. :d
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Originally posted by Nash
You have, for your location, C.S.A.
Is that the "Confederate States of America?"
Or.... What/where is that?
& you have a semicolon follwed by nothing at all.
Where I live was once The Confederate States of America. I am proud of my relatives heritage & I am proud of the fight they put up seeing as how they never really had a chance to win. There were no cannon factories in the south & you can't fight cannons with cotton. I wish the south could rise again, but it ain't gunna hapn' capn'.
Now back to the question...can't answer because you don't have a clue? It was a simple yes or no question. I see some posters here seem to actually believe it's a possibility.
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Strange.... I don't see a semicolon in my post. You do? Must be an internet glitch. Anyways...
Just so we're clear then, you hail from the mighty and proud Confederate States of America?
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Originally posted by Brenjen
& you have a semicolon follwed by nothing at all.
Where I live was once The Confederate States of America. I am proud of my relatives heritage & I am proud of the fight they put up seeing as how they never really had a chance to win. There were no cannon factories in the south & you can't fight cannons with cotton. I wish the south could rise again, but it ain't gunna hapn' capn'.
Now back to the question...can't answer because you don't have a clue? It was a simple yes or no question. I see some posters here seem to actually believe it's a possibility.
:huh
Lee surrendered, you didn't?
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See Rule #4
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See Rule #4
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I think it all depends on the state. Would anyone really miss Idaho?
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Huh?
I didn't remember typing a semicolon into my post, and I still don't see one, and other than that, have no idea what you're getting at.
As for your post, I do think that context counts for something, and a post about the secession of an American State becomes doubly interesting within the context of the poster claiming to reside in the Confederate States of America.
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Time fer a lil History Lesson.
Thomas Jefferson in his First Inaugural Address said, "If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it." Fifteen years later, after the New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said, "If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'"
At the constitutions ratification convention, the delegates said, "The powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression." In Federalist Paper 39, James Madison, the father of the Constitution, cleared up what "the people" meant, saying the proposed Constitution would be subject to ratification by the people, "not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong." In a word, states were sovereign; the federal government was a creation, an agent, a servant of the states.
Now, lets fast forward to Gettysburg... and carefully consider Lincolns magnificent speech. Historian H.L. Mencken: "It is poetry not logic; beauty, not sense." Lincoln said that the soldiers sacrificed their lives "to the cause of self-determination; government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth." Mencken says: "It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves." Political Spin... Lincolns or Menckens ? It should be noted that history records WHEN the Administration freed the slaves.. and it wasn't untill AFTER the Union finally actually won a battle... and that was 2 years into the war. ;)
As it stands now, every time I see a 'political map' I see a massive number of 'red' states, and two coastlines that are blue. Red... Blue. hmmmmmmmmmm. Massive disparity of political opinion & state will.
The one thing we can all agree that TRULY sucks about MODERN America is the sick monkey on our backs.. the FEDERAL Government.
I'm tellin yah.. The South Shall Rise AGAIN!!
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By the founding notion & law, the states should have the right to seccede, but the federal govt. will never allow a dissolution of the union again.
The US government declines, spinning it to look like the "rogue alaskans" kicked them out.
:confused: All the alaskans that ever lived couldn't kick the federal armed forces out of alaska, but it would make for interesting news footage. I can see Alaska now, filled with carpetbaggers while hawaii, slowly smouldering, slips into the sea.:(
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See Rule #4, #5
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There has been one sucessful secession. It's called the Conch Republic
http://www.conchrepublic.com/
I've have dual citizenship as An American and a Conch (Though I'm not from the Florida Keys, anyone can be a citizen)
If you read the History..It's quite humorous, but got the result they were looking for when they declared independance.
People have actually sucessfully traveled on the passports.
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Are those the guys who attack a Coast Guard cutter by throwing fish at them? And the Coast Guard plays along? With water baloons and all? Saw that on the Discovery Channel or History Channel. Do you guys print your own money?
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
Are those the guys who attack a Coast Guard cutter by throwing fish at them? And the Coast Guard plays along? With water baloons and all? Saw that on the Discovery Channel or History Channel. Do you guys print your own money?
Les
No money as far as I know. They do have a couple of Consulates set up overseas though, and have a Secretary General, and a "Navy"
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Hawaii is the only state that I could envision secceding without conflict. Any other state would be an american chechnya.
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You should really look into printing your own money. But other than that...A-OK!!!:D
Les
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See Rule #2, #5
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See Rule #4
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Rule #4
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Originally posted by Brenjen
How many people here believe a U.S. state would/will ever be released from the Union?
I say it will never happen. States are states in perpetuity.
Didn't sombody try that already and lose a war?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
LOL!
the certainty and exubernce of youth.
"THE SOUTH SHALL RISE AGAIN!"
news fer yah, sonny-boy.. last time around the south was beat by industry. Guess where whats left of yer yankee industry is NOW.
;)
Rise again and do what? Same thing as last time,......................please.
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Originally posted by Suave
Hawaii is the only state that I could envision secceding without conflict. Any other state would be an american chechnya.
If Puerto Rico can't get a consensus on full independance, I find it hard to believe Hawaii or any state could.
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See Rule #4, #5
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L-I-N-C-O-L-N
so, no.
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Originally posted by dmf
Rise again and do what? Same thing as last time,......................please.
I know, I know, sounds totally absurd. Bear in mind the 'south' ain't necessarily the CSA. It's the concept that a state, possessing a majority population that is in defiance of federal laws and policies may determine that it no longer desires to enforce federal laws that do not represent the will of it's citizens.
I doubt seriously that such a situation would or could devolve into a 'shooting' war.. I do however envision a states peaceable declaration that it no longer desires the attention of the Feds in their local affairs... and be able to do so constitutionaly.
No, I do not have a confederate flag and an easy-rider rifle rack equipped pickup truck. ;)
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Why wouldn't it devolve into shooting? Afterall we're talking about extralegal political action. Large corperations trying to pull out of the state leaving towns unemployed. Transportation arteries blockaded to keep vital machinery, goods and equipment within state borders. The federal agencies would want to pull out their assets and infastructure. Conlfict would start first between seccessionists and loyalists within the state, police departments vs police departments etc. Then the USA would send federal forces to try to regain order.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
If Puerto Rico can't get a consensus on full independance, I find it hard to believe Hawaii or any state could.
Not arguing with that, just making a point about the hypothetical likelihood of conflict.
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Going on a tangent, how much has the strategic importance of hawaii diminished, if at all?
To be honest I hadn't considered that when I blathered my first coment.
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I don't see any state attempting to secede anytime soon (within the next 50 years) unless there is some huge calamitous or otherwise life changing event. Should something happen that would make one or more states want to leave the union then I expect the union would likely not want them to leave for that same reason. Would there be war? Undoubtedly.
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Maine would never leave. What? Give up federal dollars? Then we'd have to, like, balance our budgets and stop floating bond issues every stinking year.
Plus, Canada wouldnt want us. Once they cleaned out the malls, we'd all be forced to stop dropping our "R" 's ( c'ah, lobstah, etc) and use "Eh" instead.
:cool:
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unless there is some huge calamitous or otherwise life changing event.
Isn't that how it always happens?
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Originally posted by Suave
Going on a tangent, how much has the strategic importance of hawaii diminished, if at all?
To be honest I hadn't considered that when I blathered my first coment.
If anything, Hawaii is even more important today than at any time since WWII. New hunter Subs are coming in. We have one of only 2 mothball fleets left (and we do have at least 1 serviceable carrier in that mothball fleet). Pearl's shipyard beat the budget axe against what many felt was overwhelming competition on the east coast. We are getting 10% of all the new F-22 Raptors the Air Force will employ in US defense. We WILL have a new carrier task force based here within the next 5-6 years in probability, within 10 years guaranteed (as much as anything can be "guaranteed" by the military). Barring a huge shift in political forces during that time, that is. The missile range on Kauai is testing the newest anti-missile defense system, and finally getting acceptable results from land based interceptors. Within the next few years Hawaii and Japan will be home to several clusters of these interceptors, designed to stop incoming ballistic missiles. Hawaii has one of the Army's first operational Stryker units. Hawaii will also be home to the Army's new .......... boats? Designed to deliver troops and equipment at a slightly slower pace that gives them time for a proper breifing while enroute. Supposed to be ready by late 2007 last I heard. Course that can change.
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"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave."
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
L-I-N-C-O-L-N
so, no.
$!*#&%$! hooked on #%$*!* fonics, #!$!&%.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
What the heck did you say?
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Rule 4
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
If anything, Hawaii is even more important today than at any time since WWII. Course that can change.
Hawaii is vital to the defense of the Pacific & it's importance will likely only grow with the emergence of China as one of the worlds "blue water" navies. I fear Taiwan will be a hot topic in Hawaii once China decides it is time to take Taiwan back....and then there is the old tesion between N.Korea & Japan to watch also, yes the Pacific could get interesting in a flash.
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There will come a day when the American people will once again stand up towards the Two Party corrupt system, Corporate corruption, Taxes without representation... The rich get Richer and the Poorer get poorer. There is no longer a Middle Class.... We without are grasping onto life, Those that have look down their noses and smile.
The Poor are over taxed, the Rich run free. Life is not the remarks from someone in Hollywood. Ask a Teacher in Iowa what is life, ask a Nurse in Alabama what is life, ask a Single Mother in Michigan raising children what is life. It is time for the poor sheep of this Country to take back what was rightfully yours, Freedom and the pursuit of Happiness.
You've been through enough already, They take and take until you have nothing left, then they take more. No more Religion discussed in schools... No Pledge of Alligence... it's now unheard of.
You pay taxes when you go to the store and buy food to live on yet your State makes you pay more Taxes at the end of the year based upon what you earned in a year. "Hello"
Where are your hard earned money going to? What purpose do YOUR taxes serve? Yet our Congress is willing to let illegal immigrants become American Citizens with a wave of a pen?
Stand up for your rights, stand up for your freedom, stand up for the Liberty that was granted upon you from many Americans behind you!
It's TIME we've said "I'm mad as Hell and I am NOT going to take it ANYMORE!!!!!"
Or lay there like lambs to the slaughter...
*off the soap box*
FREE AMERICA!
Mac
*Patrick Henry must be spinning in his grave*
"Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!"
MacMAW '08
The "American" ballot!
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I am a good old rebel, that's just what I am
For this fair land of freedom I do not care a damn
I'm glad I fought against it but I only wished I'd won
And I don't want a pardon for anything I've done
I hate the constitution, this great republic too
I hate the Freedman's Bureau in uniforms so blue
I hate the nasty eagle with all the brag and fuss
And the lying, thieving Yankees, I hate 'em worse and worse
I hate the Yankee nation and everything they do
I hate the Declaration of Independence too
I hate the glorious Union, 'tis dripping with our blood
And I hate their Yankee banner and I fought it all I could
I followed old Marse Robert for four year near about
Got wounded in three place and starved at Point Lookout
I caught the rheumatism a-campin' in the snow
But I caught a choice of Yankees and I wish I'd caught some more
Three hundred thousand Yankees lie stiff in Southern dust
We got three hundred thousand before they conquered us
They died of Southern fever, Southern steel and shot
And I wish it was three million instead of what we got
I can't take up my musket and fight 'em now no more
But I ain't goin' to love 'em now that's certain sure
And I don't want no pardon for what I was and am
And I won't be reconstructed and I don't give a damn
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Virgil Cain is my name and I rode on the Danville trains..
Til so much Calvary came and tore up the tracks again.
Mac
The Night They Drove Ol Dixie Down.
Let Freedom Ring.... Again
And all the People were singin....
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See Rule #7
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DMF, wait til the second ammendment is repealed. You'll see a whole lot of states break off at once, and california will mysteriously dissappear.
It'll happen a lot sooner then you think.
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Originally posted by dmf
See Rule #7
That sure is a long time.
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Rule #4
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Originally posted by AWMac
Amis McCain is my name and I rode on the Danville trains..
Til so much Calvary came and tore up the tracks again.
Mac
The Night They Drove Ol Dixie Down.
Let Freedom Ring.... Again
And all the People were singin....
Uhhh, that's Virgil Cain...and please give credit to authors The Band. Thank you Sir.
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anyone want to celebrate memorial day by starting a dead pool for teh union?
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Originally posted by Nash
The southerners are so special...
Yeah, we are pretty cool arent we? I mean "aint we"
Where are you from anyway?
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Originally posted by aztec
Uhhh, that's Virgil Cain...and please give credit to authors The Band. Thank you Sir.
Uhhh That's Virgil Caine... and was also sung by Joan Baez.
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down (http://theband.hiof.no/lyrics/night_they_drove_old_dixie_down.html)
Many Thanks,
Mac
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Originally posted by Brenjen
the cause of the confusion is your calling a colon (:[which is, accurate btw]) a semi-colon (; )
and logic has very little place in the real world, even less on this board- even if most of us morons can understand a mile long charge over open ground is a pretty stupid idea.
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Can soneone explain what is the unique position Texas holds?
Apparently it joined differently or something like that.
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There was no confusion vorticon; only a mis-type on my part.
I have that song "The Confederate Anthem" on my other P/C Bruno
& the words to "The night they drove old Dixie down" had "when Stolemans cavalry came" I believe, it wasn't "when so much cavalry came" I think that was Joan Baez's stoned self flubbing the lyrics lol
I do believe this country is headed towards an uprising of some sort, & if one state decided to secceed there would be others; but the Federal Govt. will never allow it; they will send in troops. Remember the troubles of the last decade or so, posse comitatus was just so much paper.
Think back to when Rodney King got his butt in a bind with some over-zealous police. The federal govt. activated troops from fort ord & sent them in with a quickness.
The Branch Davidians, executed with the help of federal troops & equipment; the F.B.I. doesn't posses flame thrower tanks & the L.A.V.'s I saw were military issue. Does the F.B.I. even possess bradley fighting vehicles?
There has been plenty of evidence that the federal govt. still views the states as one nation in perpetuity. If they ever come door to door in an attempt to confiscate weapons in defiance of our second amendment rights, I am afraid I will have no choice but to leave my beloved country unless open revolt begins, in which case I will take a side.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Can soneone explain what is the unique position Texas holds?
Apparently it joined differently or something like that.
Without looking it up, I believe Texas was the only state to be it's own republic prior to becoming a state in the union.
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Originally posted by AWMac
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down (http://theband.hiof.no/lyrics/night_they_drove_old_dixie_down.html)
Many Thanks,
Mac
Ahh, The Band.
Good Canuckian group.
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See Rule #2
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Pardon?
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Without looking it up, I believe Texas was the only state to be it's own republic prior to becoming a state in the union.
Hawaii was independant too.
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See Rule #2
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Originally posted by Brenjen
I have that song "The Confederate Anthem" on my other P/C Bruno
How many know that 'Dixie' was written by a yankee from Mt Vernon Ohio?
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Originally posted by Hangtime
As it stands now, every time I see a 'political map' I see a massive number of 'red' states, and two coastlines that are blue. Red... Blue. hmmmmmmmmmm. Massive disparity of political opinion & state will.
[/i]
You're looking at the wrong maps. The country is purple.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
DMF, wait til the second ammendment is repealed. You'll see a whole lot of states break off at once, and california will mysteriously dissappear.
It'll happen a lot sooner then you think.
Nice handwringing. I don't see a Constitutional amendment like this getting any traction whatsoever.
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There was a growing political movement recently pushing the idea of Alaskan seccession, but the leader of the movement was killed in a 'botched robbery'.
A pretty infortunate coincidence.
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Forgive me Sandman, I forgot that I needed to spell everything out for you. I apologize for expecting you to think on your own.
When I said "Repeal the second ammendment," I meant "effectively repeal the second ammendment."
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Forgive me Sandman, I forgot that I needed to spell everything out for you. I apologize for expecting you to think on your own.
When I said "Repeal the second ammendment," I meant "effectively repeal the second ammendment."
Blame me because the post was poorly written. I don't read minds.
So... you think that the 2nd Amendment is being steadily whittled away by the legistative branch and the Supreme Court seems quite happy to go along. There hasn't been a single gun control law struck down by the SC to date. What's the magical breaking point before you guys start your revolution? :rofl
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Originally posted by Sandman
Blame me because the post was poorly written. I don't read minds.
So... you think that the 2nd Amendment is being steadily whittled away by the legistative branch and the Supreme Court seems quite happy to go along. There hasn't been a single gun control law struck down by the SC to date. What's the magical breaking point before you guys start your revolution? :rofl
I don't think there is a "magical breaking point" They have already forced registration & limitations on legal owners, I remember a day when a guy could go to sears & buy a rifle for $60 & not have to sign anything. I never read about a single person getting killed in the parking lot by a maniac, people left their guns in gun racks inside their pick-up trucks in plain view, windows down even.
But I think mandatory confiscation of firearms or a type of firearm after a federal law is passed in opposition to the second amendment will get the attention of everyone in America for one reason or another, I think that would cause lots of open revolt & bloodshed on a large scale & could even become another "civil war"....lol, "civil war" what a stupid name for it; war is anything but civil.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Hawaii was independant too.
Not quite the same situation as Texas, all of this country belonged to someone else before we took it, & they took it from someone before them. Here's a good "what if" - what if the United States native population had been controlled by a central governing tribe? Instead of Cherokee & Apache & Creek & Caddo & Iroquois etc. etc. etc.
Me thinks the white settlers would not have taken this land...they may not have even been allowed a place to share it from.
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See Rule #2
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Originally posted by Sandman
What's the magical breaking point before you guys start your revolution? :rofl
I don't know the magical breaking point for other people.
I know mine.
The day they come to confiscate them (because I'm sure not turning in any of them), they should send the older, divorced, unattached, no children functionaries to give it a try.
Not all of them will be going back home from my house when their shift ends.
I'd expect that to be my coda as well; so be it.
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Rule #16
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Originally posted by Sandman
Nice handwringing. I don't see a Constitutional amendment like this getting any traction whatsoever.
No but you will see it slowly chipped at. The left is famous for it via the court system. The left was going to kill gun rights the same way they are trying to kill privatized medicine.....the lawsuit.
Thankfully recent legislation did pass that made gun manufacturers not liable for their products usage (IE murders).
Hell look at San Francisco if you don't beleive me. The city made it illegal to own a handgun inside city limits. If you don't think it's possible just sit back and watch it happen.
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Most likely the elimination of guns will be gradual Toad. All the government has to do is eliminate the production of guns and ammo and wait for this generation to die. That and educate our kids that guns are inherently evil. I think they're well underway in that regard.
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I see a secession being attempted due to a collapse in our economy and several resource rich states decide to throw off the burden of supporting the dependent states.
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Originally posted by lukster
Most likely the elimination of guns will be gradual Toad. All the government has to do is eliminate the production of guns and ammo and wait for this generation to die. That and educate our kids that guns are inherently evil. I think they're well underway in that regard.
Well, a quote from Jefferson applies:
"I willingly acquiesce in the institutions of my country, perfect or imperfect, and think it a duty to leave their modifications to those who are to live under them and are to participate of the good or evil they may produce. The present generation has the same right of self-government which the past one has exercised for itself." --Thomas Jefferson to John Hampden Pleasants, 1824. ME 16:29
If our kids give up their guns by Constitutional amendment, that's their choice.
I'm not giving mine up until and unless they amend the Constitution. I'm confident that won't happen in my remaining lifetime.
So, if the forces of evil are patient they won't have to engage me. ;)
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They have to be patient. Those that would take your guns know full well that there are just too many like you to make it possible. Civil war won't be fought over guns alone imo. Oil shortages, unemployment, inflation, unbearable taxation, all of those could reach point where some popular politician rallies his his state to become independent.
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Then I have nothing to worry about. I'll be pushing up daisies before they come for the guns, so I'll get in all the shooting/hunting I care to do.
Each generation faces it's own problems.
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Oh, and BTW, it's Stoneman's cavalry came
(http://www.civilwarphotos.net/files/cartes_de_visite_images/c147.jpg)
Robbie Robertson wrote it, the lyrics are (although arguments remain in some areas like "mud" and "blood":
Lyrics for: The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down
Virgil Caine is the name, and I served on the Danville train,
Til Stoneman's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again.
In the winter of '65, We were hungry, just barely alive.
By May the tenth, Richmond had fell, it's a time I remember, oh so well,
(Chorus)
The night they drove old Dixie down, and the bells were ringing,
The night they drove old Dixie down, and the people were singin'.
They went
La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la,
Back with my wife in Tennessee, when one day she called to me,
"Virgil, quick, come see, there goes Robert E. Lee!"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood, and I don't care if the money's no good.
Ya take what ya need and ya leave the rest,
But they should never have taken the very best.
(Chorus)
Like my father before me, I will work the land,
Like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand.
He was just eighteen, proud and brave,
But a Yankee laid him in his grave,
I swear by the mud below my feet,
You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in defeat.
Great song; like the whole album, really. Had it on LP and 8-track. ;)
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Another possibility some day might be the Hispanic majority in Texas voting for seccession.
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Originally posted by Booz
Another possibility some day might be the Hispanic majority in Texas voting for seccession.
Or california, or mexico. Hell with recent immigration reform talks they want to allow almost 100 million into this country for the next 10 years. That's enough to swing more than a few votes in their favor.
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Originally posted by Booz
Another possibility some day might be the Hispanic majority in Texas voting for seccession.
Maybe, if things are radically different from today. Thousands cross the border illegally to get away from the low paying jobs of Mexico. Not likely they'll want to change that anytime soon unless seceding gives them even higher paying jobs or good jobs and a more open border with Mexico.