Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hangtime on May 28, 2006, 08:44:16 PM
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Been watching this on DSC.. sends chills down my spine! jesse's building up a 'dragster' Humvee outta can point and deadline parts... with some parts help from stateside.
The 'chills' part? The S&E shop they're working in. Brings back a whole buncha memories.
Jesse James.. some kids will have memories THEY won't soon forget!
http://www2.theclarionnews.com/Living/54059.shtml
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They never got the thing to drive :cry but I really enjoyed watching the effort.
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'..never put no oil in them there humvee converters...'
sgt twitmouse. every motor pool has a sgt twitmouse. ;)
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Originally posted by Yeager
They never got the thing to drive :cry but I really enjoyed watching the effort.
Ah dang, Im watching it now....that's a mean spoiler!
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Okay let me get this straight...
On the one hand, you've got kids drivin' around in unarmoured Humvees gettin' blown to snot.
And on the other, you've got a teevee show special in Iraq, whereby they try to create some kind of dragster Humvee that's able to pop wheelies...
.... and even that doesn't work.
At this point, it's not exactly out of line to ask.....
Is there a problem with the Humvees?.... or is there a problem with people's focus?
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In this instance, the problem lies with a certain Canadian making something out of nothing.
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Originally posted by Nash
Okay let me get this straight...
On the one hand, you've got kids drivin' around in unarmoured Humvees gettin' blown to snot.
And on the other, you've got a teevee show special in Iraq, whereby they try to create some kind of dragster Humvee that's able to pop wheelies...
.... and even that doesn't work.
At this point, it's not exactly out of line to ask.....
Is there a problem with the Humvees?.... or is there a problem with people's focus?
I's guess you didn't watch it.. that's ok.
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Originally posted by SOB
In this instance, the problem lies with a certain Canadian making something out of nothing.
And in this instance, the problem lies with a certain American making nothing out of something.
(Does that answer any questions for you? Didn't think so.)
How is it that a nation can be at war while being almost completely oblivious to the fact that they are at war?
I don't know. But certainly, the perfect and natural byproduct to this dense freewheeling disassociation is the conversion of deathtrap Humvees into mad wheelie popping dragsters.
What's next? Fallujah 90210?
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Nash is right.
Buy war bonds.
Ration gas.
Donate all of your unused strategic materials to your local authority.
STOP any and all USO sponsored and USO-like troop entertainment while the troops are "in country". How the hell can we have any entertained troops fer chrissakes!!! They're fightin' a war!!!!!!!!!!
We now return you to your usual liberal post-reply rant.
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Yeah, that's sooooo old-school.
These days? When we wanna win at war? We cut taxes and go to Disneyland!
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Nash, c'mon chill. The kids were havin a blast.. doing something.. else. I empathised with 'em completely. I worked in a battalion service and evac unit just like that one... it's a miserable thankless grueling job. The kids enjoyed the show.. I enjoyed the show.
And, again, it's ok if you don't get it. Its one of those 'yah have to be there' kinda things to understand.
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Yeah.... I know....
I know....
I do get it....
And it was probably a good show. And uplifting.
It just pisses me off...
wotev....
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Originally posted by Nash
It just pisses me off...
wotev....
A show about a celebrity GOING to Iraq to entertain some troops pisses you off?
How old school of you.
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Originally posted by Nash
And in this instance, the problem lies with a certain American making nothing out of something.
(Does that answer any questions for you? Didn't think so.)
How is it that a nation can be at war while being almost completely oblivious to the fact that they are at war?
I don't know. But certainly, the perfect and natural byproduct to this dense freewheeling disassociation is the conversion of deathtrap Humvees into mad wheelie popping dragsters.
What's next? Fallujah 90210?
I guess I'm not following what you're upset about.
Is it that he's bringing a little bit of home to the troops in Iraq?
Is it that he's using the Humvee in doing so?
Is it that the Humvee isn't invincible?
How do you feel about USO shows? Are all morale boosters verboten? Is there to be any thought or action outside of the business of war by our troops while they are in Iraq?
It is possible to understand the serious nature of what's happening over there while still allowing for humans to be human. It's good for our soldiers to have time away. It's also good for the armed forces to take advantage of opportunities like this as good PR to the citizens of this country. And we as citizens can make up our own minds what to make of it...even if it's just to enjoy it for the entertainment that it is...and here's the rub, we can enjoy the show as entertainment while still keeping a critical eye on the war.
And as to the condemnation of my entire nation based on a TV show, well, you can cram it. You complain about the mindless Bush-worshiping neocons on this board, but lately you're the reactionary, hyperbolic polar opposite of them. Wake up from the pissed off coma you're in, it's nice out here in the rational waking world.
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SOB?
Hows about you cram it?
Do you actually think I have anything against USO shows or morale boosters? As the hell if.
And I care about the troops over there as if they were my own brothers. Because they are.
I get frustrated... okay? I get frustrated because I see them over there trying to do an impossible job while getting their legs cut out from underneath them. I get frustrated because they shouldn't be there in the first place. I'm angry about it.
Dragster pop-a-wheelie Humvees don't exactly boost my morale, and despite the good-times had by the few guys who got to participate in the teevee show, there are dozens more who drive these things into bombs on a daily basis.
It just gets to me. It weighs on me. And that won't stop until it's over. It permeates everything I feel. It clouds everything I see. And it will be that way until the war is over. I'm ever cognisant of it, and aware to a fault.
Tricked-out riced-up Humvees, well... nice as they may be.... they don't do it for me.
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SOB?
SOB!
Hows about [/i]you[/i] cram it?
Despite rumors to the contrary, I don't swing that way.
Do you actually think I have anything against USO shows or morale boosters? As the hell if.
I don't really think so, no. Just curious why you feel compelled to cast dispersions at people in this thread for enjoying the show. ie: "Is there a problem with the Humvees?.... or is there a problem with people's focus?" As though enjoying the show somehow makes a person less concerned about the well being of our troops in this war.
And I care about the troops over there as if they were my own brothers. Because they are.
Good on ya.
I get frustrated... okay? I get frustrated because I see them over there trying to do an impossible job while getting their legs cut out from underneath them. I get frustrated because they shouldn't be there in the first place. I'm angry about it.
And here we are in agreement.
Dragster pop-a-wheelie Humvees don't exactly boost my morale, and despite the good-times had by the few guys who got to participate in the teevee show, there are dozens more who drive these things into bombs on a daily basis.
OK. You didn't enjoy it. Other people did, and I don't see how that's a problem. That others die due to IEDs while driving Humvees is a parallel that I'm not seeing. It's a TV show about souping up vehicles, and in the vein of this military-themed show, they used the most likely (popular, well known) suspect, the Humvee. If you're just having an irrational emotional reaction, that's cool, no need to explain.
It just gets to me. It weighs on me. And that won't stop until it's over. It permeates everything I feel. It clouds everything I see. And it will be that way until the war is over. I'm ever cognisant of it, and aware to a fault.
Sounds like a ****ty way to trod through your daily life. I'll add you to the list of reasons why I hope we're able to pull out of that pit soon.
Tricked-out riced-up Humvees, well... nice as they may be.... they don't do it for me.
Me neither. That doesn't mean I have to crap on guys who do, though. Of course, Monster Garage isn't necessarily about being in love with the end product as it is about enjoying the art of the transformation...but I take it you don't care either way.
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Hey.... who said I'm supposed to be rational all the time? :)
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By the way....
We agree:
That the soldiers are our brothers.
We agree:
That they aren't getting a fair shake.
We agree:
That they are doing an impossible job.
We agree:
That they shouldn't be there in the first place.
We disagree:
On pimping Humvees.
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It's ironic that some people think about Iraq at home more than some people in Iraq do. Maybe Ironic isn't the word, but it's just really...unexpected.
And yes, the uparmored Humvee sucks overall like most stop-gap measures do, but it fills a niche alot better than bipedal transportation or a tracked vehicle does. I've heard thru the grapevine there's a replacement to look forward to in the near future, but can't provide any more info about it.
As for the overall war effort, I don't think it will suffer much if at all because someone pimped out some wrecked vehicles.
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Originally posted by Nash
We disagree:
On pimping Humvees.
True, but I've seen your pimped out N1K2-J, so I know you're a playa'. ;)
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Originally posted by Nash
Hey.... who said I'm supposed to be rational all the time? :)
You could try Midol® for times like these.
culero (just trying to help :))
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I always thought Humvees were really unique, cool looking vehicles. Though I think Jesse James is one step above trailer trash.
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Nash, I didn't know you had a brother in Iraq.
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That is the most emotional I have ever seen Jesse at the end.
Twas a very good thing he did there and a lot was put into making the visit itself.
Contrary to what was stated above by our local mishmouther, it was not just the few who were involved in the build that had the enjoyment from his visit. He visited a lot of troops , in a lot of different locations on his trip.
Bringing a little bit of home to those doing our country`s greatest service is never a bad thing.
Celebs visiting the troops for a show is a great thing, but to take the time that Jesse spent there was awesome.
I got a kick out of the "pay cut" joke he popped on the spur of the moment.
I think people like Jesse can be related to by most of the troops a lot easier than most that have visited so far.
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Why the Humvee?
Because it's much harder to get a 120,250 lbs (63 tons, combat loaded) M1A1 Abrams to do a wheelie.
Nash, don't feel so bad.
I'm currently meeting about 1 or 2 "just got home from Iraq or Afghanistan" vets a day where I work. They're all glad to be home. Haven't met one that voices your emotions as displayed above though. Met several that have already volunteered to go back. Maybe you're just out of touch with your fellow brothers in the United States armed forces?
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The humvee was designed as a utility vehicle, not as a ARMORED FIGHTING VEHICLE, but we can't expect nash to know anything about armored fighting vehicles.
Do to a mission change it was retro-fitted with armor plating.
At one time when i was in the marines i was assigned a jeep, my jeep not only had a thin body , it had no doors-NO DOORS!
My god , i could have fallen out and got hurt, what was our govt thinking of? But it did have a big yellow sticker on the dash that said" warning, this vehicle can turn over if driven over 35mph in a turn causing injury or death" or something like that.
I wonder if the govt was worried about me or damage to the jeep?
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5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Originally posted by Nash
I get frustrated... okay? I get frustrated because I see them over there trying to do an impossible job while getting their legs cut out from underneath them. I get frustrated because they shouldn't be there in the first place. I'm angry about it.
Holy ****! Did you steal that line from the rebel in "Forest Gump"? Maybe you could take a moment and ponder the rational of getting so upset about something so out of your control.
I don't recall seeing a "the war is a wonderful thing" post in this thread. I don't recall seeing a "all this wouldn't be possible if it hadn't been for our wonderous leader" statement anywhere.
Just ask yourself one simple question:
1) is it good or bad that that Jesse James went over there and did this show with soldiers?
If you find you are unable to address the question specifically because you're just going to tare off on a "THEY SHOULDN'T EVEN BE THERE" rant... then you're missing the point and probably should learn to just avoid threads like this in the future.
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Lessee, we have a criticism of a vehicle which was never designed to be a front line battle vehicle capable of withstanding anti tank rounds and explosive devices because it succombs to them. HHHMMM yep I can see where that's really someones fault there. (There's a real reason those munitions are called ANTI TANK rounds.)
We then have criticism about a tv show whose only claim to fame is changing a vehicle into something it was never designed for strictly for show with no purpose whatsoever in the real world. It was entertainment, nothing more.
I find this just SO freaking ironic. A poster here who regularly criticises the war and our presence there claims brotherhood with the folks who are serving when he has never, ever placed himself in a position to EVER serve with his "brothers". Like he has some kind of common reference with those who do go in harms way. Things like this weigh on him every day. Yeah right. :rolleyes:
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Troops in Iraq are doing a fantastic job and the mission is the right mission and it will succeed. There is no alternative.
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I gotta side with Nash on this one. This is not about a USO show, this is about a TV show using the troops as props. Jesse James is no Bob Hope.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I always thought Humvees were really unique, cool looking vehicles. Though I think Jesse James is one step above trailer trash.
:aok
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Bob's dead. so.. no more entertainment for the troops?
I'm no big fan of jesse james.. don't watch monster garage. jesse is a guy that works with his hands.. he's no comedian, he ain't an entertainer. just a 'blue collar' kinda guy. a mechanic.
that transportation battalion got somethin better than bob hope, imho.
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Originally posted by Toad
Met several that have already volunteered to go back.
Not at all surprised by this. They worry about their friends.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Lessee, we have a criticism of a vehicle which was never designed to be a front line battle vehicle capable of withstanding anti tank rounds and explosive devices because it succombs to them. HHHMMM yep I can see where that's really someones fault there. (There's a real reason those munitions are called ANTI TANK rounds.)
We then have criticism about a tv show whose only claim to fame is changing a vehicle into something it was never designed for strictly for show with no purpose whatsoever in the real world. It was entertainment, nothing more.
I find this just SO freaking ironic. A poster here who regularly criticises the war and our presence there claims brotherhood with the folks who are serving when he has never, ever placed himself in a position to EVER serve with his "brothers". Like he has some kind of common reference with those who do go in harms way. Things like this weigh on him every day. Yeah right. :rolleyes:
It is very plausible to be anti-Iraq War and pro-troops without ever having served in the military.
In fact "pro-troops" is starting to piss me off. I have always been one of those guys who actually sings the national anthem at ballgames and tears up when a missing man formation flys by to the strains of "Amazing Grace" on bagpipes. I'm tired of having to say "pro-troops" every time I criticize the stupid war Bush has laid on us. Part of the BS fear mongering the republiucans have perpetrated on America is this stupid defensive position anyone who disagrees with the President has to take. Screw it. The war was a bad move... the troops are our best and brightest. Bring them the hell home or send them somewhere they are really needed. Oh wait... that's right, we broke it.
Maybe those guys got a thrill out of the Jesse James visit. and maybe they should have shown it on the Armed Force network in Iraq and maybe even stateside on bases. But putting it on commercial TV here is just profiteering. I wonder... has anyone ever seen any of Al Franken's USO shows on TV?
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Nash is not pro-anything, just anti-everything American.
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you can not be "anti-war" in public and "pro troops", every time some anti-war person says something against the war the enemy use it for propaganda, if you did not learn that during viet nam war you better learn it now.
when "war hero" murtha says 'bring the troops home " the enemy cheers, when murtha says the troops are "worn out" the enemy cheers.
you think by protesting the war you can end it sooner, but what you do is make it last longer by encouraging the enemy to keep fighting, "if we just kill a few more americans , they will run home to moma"
idiots
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I always thought Humvees were really unique, cool looking vehicles. Though I think Jesse James is one step above trailer trash.
Makes you wonder about Sandra Bullock.
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Originally posted by john9001
you can not be "anti-war" in public and "pro troops", every time some anti-war person says something against the war the enemy use it for propaganda
S'truth, the Iraqi insurgents have been using this BBS as the primary source for thier propaganda for years. Nash should know better by now.
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MT,
You're right, it is possible to be pro troops and not serve. It's the "brother" claim that rings so blatently and patently false. It's also somewhat offensive to me for him to claim being a brother to those who did serve.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I wonder... has anyone ever seen any of Al Franken's USO shows on TV?
Has ever seen Al Franken on TV in the last 25 years? :D
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Originally posted by Sandman
Not at all surprised by this. They worry about their friends.
Some want to get back to their friends.
Some are action junkies.
Some think they're doing a positive thing for Iraq.
Some voice the "rather fight them there than here" idea.
I'd guess they probably have lots of different reasons as a group.
Nonetheless, I'm not sure Nash is in tune with his "brothers in arms" in the US military.
heh
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As with most threads, this one is diverging along several themes.
As to the Jessie James episode from Balad (I'm betting Anaconda from what I did see of it). Lot's of entertainers have gone to Iraq and Afghanistan. Saw several myself during my tour there, including Robin Williams, Toby Keith, and the Miller Light Girls, among others. Many do it for the moral of the troops. To try to give something back. Some surely are doing it for the publicity (similar to why some politicians tour the war zone) but at least the troops still get something out of a visit by even these entertainers. Trying to bring a little entertainment to the troops is a long tradition. I expect to see more of the USO shows broadcast in the television media, along side all the other war-bases shows, movies, and specials we are seeing these days. People will capitalize on it...human nature with human interest stories.
Some of the video seemed to be directed at an anti-war theme. I imagine a lot of people are upset that scenes of the vehicle graveyards were being broadcast. Lots of folks like to cover up the actual costs of the war..... every hulk in that yard represents dead and wounded soldiers that were it them at the time. Its one thing to be anti-war, and another to be pro-troops,.... but I don't abide those that choose to ignore all the mistakes that have been made by those in charge as being part of supporting the troops. Or those who want to hide the actual costs of war. You fail to realize your mistakes, fail to adjust and deal with them, you will repreat them....and more soldiers die
The HMMV. Not a combat vehicle. Never was designed as one. U.S. Army has not made much use of armored cars over the years. They always designed for the war against the USSR. Tanks and APCs and poorly designed IFV's (Bradley was designed and continually redesigned to try and fill too many roles, not really great at any of them IMHO). Even as low intensity conflicts were becoming the norm, the procurement side of the military still focused on high tech toys. As a result, no urban combat vehicles, armored cars, or dedicated CAS platforms really available in sufficient numbers when this war started.
Now Armored cars are being built and sent overseas as fast as they can be.... LAV 150's, LAV-300, M-1117's. It took a lot of dead and wounded troops to convince those in charge of the need of such vehicles in the inventory.
Policy. Early during OIF, the decision was made to perform missions with HMMVs so the troops could interact with the population; the hearts and minds campaign. Tanks, APCs, and IFVs were considered too threatening for such presence.... too hard for the troops to recieve their flowers and candy from the grateful populous. Even when the insurgency started to gain hold, they kept running HMMV's and light vehicles. And when the reality of the insurgency became undeniable, they just started to "up-armor" the lighter vehicles. Once a policy goes into effect, getting it changed is sometimes like taking an old bone away from a mangy dog.
My unit made do with class-3 armored vehicles (bolt-on boiler plate). HMMV's, 5-ton dumps outfitted as "gun trucks", and HEMMETs. Few to no ring mounts for our heavier weapons, so we had to jury-rig whatever we could, which included cutting up many tripod mounts. When some vehicles like these started experiencing roll-overs with dead and wounded soldiers (my company was one that had an incident) we were ordered to not use them any more...... when we asked what they would give us to mount heavy weapons on, they replied nothing.... have to make do with HMMV's and 249 SAWs..... we promptly ignored the orders so we could still roll with M2 .50's and Mk 19's.
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/873_1148942050_comptdif.jpg)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I wonder... has anyone ever seen any of Al Franken's USO shows on TV?
I dont know I dont watch AlJazeera
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Originally posted by Pooh21
I dont know I dont watch AlJazeera
Try CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/01/05/cnna.franken/)
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This interested me...can anyone verify this one way or the other?
Iraq Less Violent than Washington, D.C.
Despite media coverage purporting to show that escalating violence in Iraq has the country spiraling out of control, civilian death statistics complied by Rep. Steve King, R-IA, indicate that Iraq actually has a lower civilian violent death rate than Washington, D.C.
Appearing with Westwood One radio host Monica Crowley on Saturday, King said that the incessantly negative coverage of the Iraq war prompted him to research the actual death numbers.
"I began to ask myself the question, if you were a civilian in Iraq, how could you tolerate that level of violence," he said. "What really is the level of violence?"
Using Pentagon statistics cross-checked with independent research, King said he came up with an annualized Iraqi civilian death rate of 27.51 per 100,000.
While that number sounds high - astonishingly, the Iowa Republican discovered that it's significantly lower than a number of major American cities, including the nation's capital.
"It's 45 violent deaths per 100,000 in Washington, D.C.," King told Crowley.
Other American cities with higher violent civilian death rates than Iraq include:
# Detroit - 41.8 per 100,000
# Baltimore - 37.7 per 100,000
# Atlanta - 34.9 per 100,000
# St. Louis - 31.4 per 100,000
The American city with the highest civilian death rate was New Orleans before Katrina - with a staggering 53.1 deaths per 100,000 - almost twice the death rate in Iraq.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/29/132706.shtml?s=ic
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Originally posted by john9001
you can not be "anti-war" in public and "pro troops", every time some anti-war person says something against the war the enemy use it for propaganda, if you did not learn that during viet nam war you better learn it now.
when "war hero" murtha says 'bring the troops home " the enemy cheers, when murtha says the troops are "worn out" the enemy cheers.
you think by protesting the war you can end it sooner, but what you do is make it last longer by encouraging the enemy to keep fighting, "if we just kill a few more americans , they will run home to moma"
idiots
Thanks :aok
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Given Nash's past, Im in awe any of you take him seriously.
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Thanks, that's very nice of you to say.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Given Nash's past, Im in awe any of you take him seriously.
I don't understand.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Try CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/01/05/cnna.franken/)
It was very moving, to see these guys who are -- and women -- who are in harm's way. And also very moving to see -- like on the first show we did in Kuwait, we sang "God Bless America" every night at the end of the show. And looking at the guys in the front row, I saw there was a black soldier with his arm linked with a white soldier, with a woman, and going back and -- and swaying back and forth, and really, this was America to me. And thinking that, you know, the military can really teach a lot of college campuses a lot about affirmative action.
This is the most intelligent thing I've ever heard Al Franken say. WOW. Good on him for doing the USO tour, I know the troops really appreciate it. EDIT: Diversity would be a better word than affirmative action but the statement is still golden in my book.
as far as Nash's comments. He seems like the kind of guy that likes to piss in the ice tray at a party and ruin everyone's good time because no girls want to talk to him. He's a sour bitter person that rarely has anything nice to say about anything. We could find a mountain of WMDs and a cure for cancer at the same time in Iraq and he would still be COMPELLED to say something negative to detract from the situation. It's like his cherios have been pissed in perpetually so everyone must suffer as a result.
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IN
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" That the soldiers are our brothers."
Their fellow soldiers are their brothers. We are their mission.
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lol... Mmm.... No, not really, Gunslinger.
I'm pissed off about the things I'm pissed off about, and happy about the things I'm happy about.
You'd be amazed at the complete lack of discourse on any issue regarding the Iraq war up here. So, it generally doesn't come up - and all is good.
This BBS, however, produces some of the most insane commentary imaginable (I'm not including this thread in that category, mind you)... and I generally have a difficult time resisting adding my 2 cents.
But when I do add my 2 cents, I'm going to lay it all out there. I'll say exactly what I think at that very moment - the second the thought crosses my mind, and I'll express it the best way I know how. You can trust that I'm not going to pull any punches.... but.... it doesn't really mirror my day to day stuff.
It does however reflect my thinking.
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so nash doesn't really have a brother over there.
Ok... who is surprised that he tried to misslead by getting all sappy?
lazs
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Originally posted by Nash
What's next? Fallujah 90210?
:lol
Nash, you are always good for a laugh!
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I was speaking metaphorically.... I believe that we're all brothers. That means even you, lazs, are my brother. :)
It didn't even occur to me when writing this, but sure, I did have an actual brother in Iraq. He was an embedded journalist for the LA Times, writing from Qatar during the run up to the war, then going from Kuwait right up into Baghdad during the invasion.
But ah... that wasn't really what I meant.
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Originally posted by bj229r
This interested me...can anyone verify this one way or the other?
quote:
Iraq Less Violent than Washington, D.C.
Despite media coverage purporting to show that escalating violence in Iraq has the country spiraling out of control, civilian death statistics complied by Rep. Steve King, R-IA, indicate that Iraq actually has a lower civilian violent death rate than Washington, D.C.
Appearing with Westwood One radio host Monica Crowley on Saturday, King said that the incessantly negative coverage of the Iraq war prompted him to research the actual death numbers.
"I began to ask myself the question, if you were a civilian in Iraq, how could you tolerate that level of violence," he said. "What really is the level of violence?"
Using Pentagon statistics cross-checked with independent research, King said he came up with an annualized Iraqi civilian death rate of 27.51 per 100,000.
"It's 45 violent deaths per 100,000 in Washington, D.C.," King told Crowley.
.......
The American city with the highest civilian death rate was New Orleans before Katrina - with a staggering 53.1 deaths per 100,000 - almost twice the death rate in Iraq.
endquote
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/29/132706.shtml?s=ic
Great thing about statistics, you can twist them to mean many things.
First, I don't think there is any way for an accurate accounting of the dead in Baghdad, or Iraq as a whole. There are many shallow graves and bodies lying open in the desert. When working the Abu Nuwas city park site, dead bodies floated down the river or washed up on the riverbank most days. This was two years ago. Most were revenge killings and kidnapping victims ...and I was there before the Golden Mosque was bombed and reprisal killings became so popular between Shia and Sunni. Families don't always take their dead to the hospitals or morgues..... the families and neighbors and clans take care of things themselves. Only figures come from the Pentagon and the various hospitals. Pentagon obviously wants to downplay those figures. Hospitals give widely conflicting numbers. I've never heard a report of how many wounded die days after a bombing event to be added to the number of dead. What about those taken out of the city into the desert and executed? Do they get added to official counts for the city? You're not getting a complete count by any means with the situation the way it is in Iraq.
By "my math", which is to say, trying to guestimate those deaths that are not reported in the daily papers...to include the "average crimes" and not just attacks that rate news coverage....with an average of 30 dying a day in Baghdad through bombings, shootings, revenge killings, death squads, hijackings, and widespread kidnappings for ransom that didn't happen before we took over (we fired all the Iraqi soldiers when we took over; many that didn't join the insurgency, entered organized crime ---- theft, kidnappings, extortion, black market, the whole bit....). BTW, I personally think 30 a day is a low figure for the greater Baghdad area...... that's over 10,000 a year.... for a city population of over 6 million, so around 180 per 100,000 per year. If I'm over by half, and an average of 15 a day is considered, that's still 90 per 100K.
Then look at the level of violence. How many bodies float down the Potomac every day? How many markets get bombed? How many death squads running around and is there an estimate on the number of shallow graves in the surrounding area of Washington D.C.? Parents are afraid to allow children go to school in some Baghdad neighborhoods from the number of kidnappings, how often does that happen in D.C.? How many commuters in Washington have to worry about the car next to them exploding, or approaching an armed checkpoint a little too fast and having soldiers open fire on their car?
This was just such a bizarre story. I seriously doubt that anyone that has actually been to Baghdad could compare the level of violence there to any U.S. city.
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Originally posted by Nash
It didn't even occur to me when writing this, but sure, I did have an actual brother in Iraq. He was an embedded journalist for the LA Times, writing from Qatar during the run up to the war, then going from Kuwait right up into Baghdad during the invasion.
That explains all the BS lies that came from the LA Times. Thanks for clearing that up. :aok
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BTW Al Franken is the poster child for left wing nut cases but I wouldn't bad mouth him or anyone else who is willing to go over there and entertain our troops.
Nash is just showing his hatred for anything American again.
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Oh... I see... the great liberal "we are all brothers" the liberal bleat about how much they love "humanity" but..... hate people.
Is Bush your "brother" too? Truth is.... most of the guys you want to let your heart bleed all over for the sake of furthering your cause.... most of em wouldn't like you very much nor appreciate your "concern".
lazs
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Originally posted by Nash
And I care about the troops over there as if they were my own brothers. Because they are.
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Is Bush your "brother" too? Truth is.... most of the guys you want to let your heart bleed all over for the sake of furthering your cause.... most of em wouldn't like you very much nor appreciate your "concern".
Funny, the same applies to you, too Laz.