Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on August 28, 2001, 08:14:00 AM
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Ain't it wonderful? Gosh, I wonder if the ACLU will support the Russian immigrant that killed his family too!
Support from the left (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/front/1024311)
Here's an idea for the U.S., why not just deem every murderer a depressive type that needed to have medication and we'll just release everyone that kills back into society? This would save tax payers alot of money, and empty our prisons as well!
[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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I'm shocked! :eek: (not)
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Its terrible sometimes, 1 person can ruin a whole families life, and they can get out on medical grounds etc, thats not meant to that one post, its meant at all crimes in general. I say bring back hanging ;)
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NOW and ACLU........
Its never the fault of protected "specialty" group members.
Thats ok Im used to it. For example take a look at this. Both me and my sister hav a 4.0 GPA and about same # of credits with similar courses taken in our community college. She got a gushing recruitment letter to the UC system from the UC president, I got squat. Now I love my sister and am vey happy for her, but this new age roadkill specal treatment for women and other "specialty" delightful groups is really going way too far.
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I wonder if she even wants to live, can you imagine.. Snapping out of your "depression" or whatever to realize you've just committed such a horrendous act!
Who in the hell could face another day knowing they'd just brutally killed those innocent children? If she wants to die, will these groups honor her wish or state she is still too screwed up, even with meds, to make up her own mind?
Yep, since women and minorities are pretty much on equal ground with the rest of us in most things (and on higher ground on many others), these groups are forced to go to such extremes to justify their existence...
This is the same group that accused Bush of dragging the black man behind the pickup truck too.......................... ....because he refused to enact another "hate" crime. Have to really pity such lost souls and hope further enlightenment of the general population will quickly lead to their dissolution.
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You guys are all assuming that her medical condition amd plea of insanity is just a legal ploy.
In reality after-birth depression is quite a common thing. In some unfortunate women it can be so severe as to take the form of psychosis. It does-not happen very often (because this trait is counterproductive to procreation) but sometimes it does and you cannot tell in advance which women will be affected. It may well be your wife or sister or anyone else.
So your speculations are completely groundless. I am sure there a people, including specialists, involved in this who can form better founded opinion. Leave it to them.
That women does not strike me as a regular criminal. She apparently loved her children.
If she wanted to get rid of her children she could have given them up for adoption or arranged some kind of an "accident" like a car falling into the lake or gas leak/explosion etc.
Not everything related to the government/judicial system is a scam, you know.
miko
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No, not everything is a scam, except when the ACLU and NOW is involved.
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I love it when they say "the Clear Lake mother accused of drowning her five children" ....... the squeak did it! no need to accuse her, she admitted it! they need to atleast change it to "the Clear Lake mother who confessed to drowning her five children."
And furthermore she WAS getting treatment for her depression, and she killed her kids anyway. she also planned it for months! She needs the death penalty, and her husband needs the mental help.
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Murder is freaking murder. If I go out get drunk as toejam and run over 20 people whats going to happen? That wench needs to die at the least. Its pathatic how people are always looking to excuse others for thier actions.
xBAT
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Depends if you got drunk as $#@% because you are depressed (temporary insanity)....or just a party dude (bad boy) :rolleyes:
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Depression is a serious mental illness, I've attempted killing myself - but the thought of killing my child is so repugnant......
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Tried twice (suicide) when I was a teenager, was diagnosed with depression.(I've always said that those who were "serious" about suicide aren't here to tell about it)
I've lived with it, and overcome by bettering myself esteem, doesn't work for everyone, but it worked for me. Drugs just seem to gloss over self-realization, though my bouts of depression are mild compared to my sister, who must be on prozac or she racks up $100,000 credit card bills...
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NOW supporting the murder of children? I thought that was one of their founding principles.
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ACLU is generally wacko, but consistantly so. They're also defending two deputies fired because of their KKK membership.
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About time that people realized that the violence commited by men is a by product of thier nature and they are not to be held accountable for it.
Same as speeding.
And excessive online gaming.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
...the Russian immigrant that killed his family...
Calling a Ukrainian (size of Texas, population 50 mil) "Russian" will not make you any friends in Ukraine.
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Come to think of it logically...
I support the death penalty because
1. It is a revenge for the wrong commited.
2. It is an absolutely reliable method to make sure that this criminal will never threaten any other member of society.
Also it is (or supposed to be) cheaper then lifelong confinement
3. it serves as a detriment to others thinking of similar crime. (admittedly, execution would better serve this purpose if it was cruel and unusual, like being eaten alive by rats, or something and televised...)
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1. Do the relatives want revenge? Does her husband want her dead? Do the grandparents? If they do not, nobody has higher claim to vengeance. So that one is not valid.
2. She killed her children while obviously in distress linked to common medical condition. She did not plan to get away with the crime, she called police and she admitted everything. Are there any reasons to believe that she is dangerous to anyone else? Other children or adults? The after-birth pshychosis is pretty specific. She may be likely to commit suicide but harm someone else? Naah...
3. You suspect your wife is depressed and may be thinking of killing your children and hope that the example of execution will stop her? Hardly. If you suspected that, you would have probably already made an appointment with a psychiatrist and/or made sure she is never alone.
So why would you want her dead? She did not drink and drive knowing in advance that the risk of hurting someone increases. All she did was being born with defective brain and having children. Hopefully psychiatrists will at some time be able to detect such condition before the person snaps.
miko
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Originally posted by miko2d:
Calling a Ukrainian (size of Texas, population 50 mil) "Russian" will not make you any friends in Ukraine.
How about "Eastern Europe"...I get them all mixed up since the wall came down....by the way, you can call me American, North American, Continental America, no way would I ever be so sensitive as to have someone call me anything but late for dinner.
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miko you damn liberal !!!
This is U S of A and we're gonna string the squeak up high and shoot her while she's chocking. Then she will be burned at the stake and her smoldering remains will be chopped to pieces and taken to all 4 ends of England.. oh wait... wrong film...
Woman is mentaly ill. Killing her will achieve nothing. What she did was wrong, very wrong. If she had committed that crime in sane mind and with premeditation - then fine - fry her. If it is an effect of her mental state - then off to the hospital she should go.
Nazi germany had a standard operating procedure of killing the mentaly handicapped since they were "weak".
It does make sense until you have one of those in your family....
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There's a big difference between "Bouts with depression" and mentally handicapped. One cannot operate a normal life whatsoever, the former is fully coherent, living a normal life, and goes off the deep end.
Although this is not a death penalty discussion, its my opinion that she gets death since it was, by all accounts I've read, premeditated murder, and attempts to do this in the past were prevelent.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
...by the way, you can call me American, North American, Continental America, no way would I ever be so sensitive...
Calling a ukrainian "russian" is more comparable with calling you "englishman" except that we americans speak (arguably) the same language and we do not hate englishmen. :)
On the issue of the woman:
Although this is not a death penalty discussion, its my opinion that she gets death since it was, by all accounts I've read, premeditated murder, and attempts to do this in the past were prevelent.
This is exactly the case where court and professional experts are needed to decide if she really was sick and did not get help she needed despite previous signs.
So we better not make stupid all-confident statements. There are provisions for mentall illness in the laws going back centuries - it's not a recent innovations of liberals. May well be it's one of those cases. It would not have seen as controversial for us if she just snapped and slapped her children silly instead of drowning them, but for her it would be all the same. When person is irrational, his/her actions are not measured and logical.
miko
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I was horrified and quite effected by what that monster did to her 5 kids back then. These groups climbing aboard some trumped up morality wagon is just putrid vile on top of the initial act.
Makes me want to move to Fiji.
Westy
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Agree with mental illness Miko, except the last 40 years the left has made it practice to exploit these cases and convincing jury's that things such as "PMS" is why she killed her husband, etc. etc.
And I am an englishman, I speak english, I'm a man (last I checked anyway) and my Grandfather came from England. :) Why you folks are in such a hurry to divide yourselfs from your current countrymen (when it was one big happy USSR) is beyond me. :)
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.and I might add, if you are a citizen of the U.S., you are an American. Read it and weep. :) USA, just one big melting pot of different nationalities. :)
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From Rip's link:
"Most are rallying behind Yates because, they said, she suffers from depression and psychosis. They said she needs medical treatment rather than be sent to prison or sentenced to death."
These people want to get her off without punishment. This is not a death penalty discussion.
Another quote:
"Yates has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to two charges of capital murder. Her family said she suffers and has been treated for severe depression.....Fowler urged Rosenthal to reconsider, adding that with medication Yates' condition could be controlled. Yates had been on a series of anti-psychotic and anti-depressive drugs, her husband, Russell Yates, has said. "
Suffers and has been treated for severe depression? So give her more treatment that hasn't worked? And what about leaving a person like that alone with your kids? Anyone who was close to her and knew her story well enough is guilty by association if they paint such a bad picture about her.
This whole story makes me sick. Yea, she didn't know what she was doing and couldn't help herself, and nobody else was smart enough to realize that leaving kids with someone that bad off might not be a good idea, and oh yea, the dog told her to do it.
<disgust>
[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Fury ]
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Agree with mental illness Miko, except the last 40 years the left has made it practice to exploit these cases and convincing jury's that things such as "PMS" is why she killed her husband, etc. etc.
True. But scum will always exploit things to their advantage. That is not a reason for rational and honest people to automatically jump to the opposite side on every issue where they are involved. Even a broken clock displays correct time twice a day (if only we knew when).
The law is the law. If some objectionable people support it, it is not a reason to object.
Westy: I was horrified and quite effected by what that monster did to her 5 kids back then.
These groups climbing aboard some trumped up morality wagon is just putrid vile on top of the initial act.
Unlike a driver who knows well in advance that exceeding speed limit or drinking or changing lanes without signalling subjects many other people to risk of death of injury, an insane person is not rational and not in control of his/her actions, hence cannot be guilty or morally responcible.
So the point here is wether she was insane or not. I think many of the people involved in her defence have enough knowlege about mentall ilnesses to believe that she really was insane and should not stand trial.
Those people want to see justice served and do not want ignorant people like some of you here to kill her just because they do not like what she did.
There are many depressed people out there but severe cases happen so rarely that her relatives could not think of her committing such an act. I would hardly accuse them of negligence. I am sure that henceforward relatives/psychiatrists of other post-partum depressed women will keep better track of them and their medication intake.
miko
P.S. I am not a bleeding-heart liberal. Far from it. I am a strong proponent of death penalty, just not in this case. I mean, if she was rational, she should die but I do not know if she is and I know enough that her story seems reasonable to me. That is why we have due process.
It seems silly to me to punish people for the result of the actions if the intent is what's important. If some wannabe-killer is a bad shooter or, worse, maimed a victim for life instead of killing him/her, how come he gets away easier?
So a guy who changes lanes without signalling while other cars present should be treated as attempted manslaughter and at least given a few years in jail. But the law is the law.
P.P.S. Talking of negligence. I recently read general Dolittle's (famous B-25 Tokyo raid) book.
The strategic B-17 bombers under his command were given a task of close support of ground troops in Europe. They had to fly long the front line and bomb german positions few hundred feet from the allied positions with wind blowing toward the allies.
The leading group accidentally bombed the allied location (ammo dump?) that caused a lot of smoke. All subsequent groups (scores of bombers) did not care to check their own locations and confirm target acquisition but just bombed around the smoke. Hundreds of dead US soldiers in minutes.
All responcible for that gross negligence were given strict talking-to.
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Ya, ain't that a blunder? Actually Doolittle was in charge, but th fog of war was prevailent that day, a big shot 1 star general was killed that day in the friendly fire. I'm currently reading a book called Military Blunders, though they don't list that particular accidental bombing, you should see what idiots men are in warfare!
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Just 'jacked my own thread! :) you set me up !
I might add, your points and Fury's are well taken, absorbed and stored in memory. Good points both.
[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]
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I don't see any good that would come out of her being executed. I think she needs to be locked up for a very long time if not for life.
Good Lord, if I was her I'd want to die. I'm sure she's come too by now and has realized the full finality of what she did to her children. I personaly don't see how ANY sane person could posibly do what she did. I've been depressed before bigtime, never to the point of suicide but bigtime all the same. hehe I'm too scared of dying to kill myself. I still would have never even thought of killing my own children if I had any.
fluffied up deal how ever you look at it, but I don't see what killing her would fix.
Udie
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Great! The ACLU exists to ensure that no one has their rights as guaranteed by the Constitution taken away without due process.
While you armchair lawyers idly watch from the sidelines itching to pull the lever on her execution, I for one am glad that there is an ACLU and that they are making sure that woman receives the trial that she deserves.
Maybe the court will determine that she was coherent and sane while killing her children. Then fine, execute her if that is the desire of the court. If she is found to be insane, there are laws in this country do protect people with mental illnesses. The ACLU didn't create these laws, but they are there to make damn sure that the law is applied fairly to all U.S. citizens.
I place my trust in the court.
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If you want revenge kill that bit_h.
If you wanna punish that woman keep him alive next 60 years.
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Originally posted by batdog:
Murder is freaking murder. If I go out get drunk as toejam and run over 20 people whats going to happen? That wench needs to die at the least. Its pathatic how people are always looking to excuse others for thier actions.
xBAT
I don't usually get up on a soapbox, but the subject of mental illness hits too close to home for me to just sit by idly and watch.
So, here goes ...
The reply, above, is a tragic example of the ignorance and hardheartedness that exists in this community and in this country with regards to the mentally ill.
When you go out and "get drunk as toejam" it is because you choose to do so. Therefore, you choose to be out of control and are, in that sense, responsible for your actions. A mentally ill person does not choose to be mentally ill -- that's the way they were born. (I'm talking about the physiological mental illness, here, not the "learned" kind)
That's the way their brains are "wired". In fact, to many mentally ill people, it's the rest of us who are "different"!
I agree that if someone is pretending to be mentally ill in order to escape responsibility for their actions then this is wrong. But if someone is indeed mentally ill, we need to approach the problem differently. In the case of this woman in Texas, I think she needs a full work up to rule out the possibility that there is something more serious wrong with her. If they're "treating her for depression", but in fact she is schizophrenic the drugs may be doing her no good at all. That's why we have the psychiatric profession, to evaluate people and make those judgements. And believe me, they can tell when you're faking it.
I am mentally ill (bipolar or manic depressive) and have been for 50 years. It took me 40 years of highs and lows to finally endanger my family relationships and seek out medical help. I have been on Lithium for over 10 years now with the wonderful side-effect that I am almost "normal" ;) At least I have stopped alienating my family and now have earned their love and support. I couldn't have done it without a lot of love and understanding from them and my close friends.
Of course, my situation is mild compared to someone who is schizophrnic.
One of the things I have learned is that if you are mentally ill and pills help, you STAY ON YOUR MEDICATION. I tried stopping and, sure enough, the old symptoms returned. My wife was on Paxil, for a while, and had to stop so she could try other medication. She got very ill (severe flu-like symptoms) when she stopped taking the drug.
During some research on mental illnesses, we ran across a class-action suit against the manufacturers of Paxil, stating that they had "understated" the addictive nature of the drug. One of the examples they cited was a man who stopped taking Paxil, cold turkey (I'm pretty sure). His withdrawal reaction was to get so depressed that he took his own life and that of his family. Sound familiar?
The point is, you don't take mental illness lightly. And you have to understand that if a mentally ill person is taking medication for an illness and stops taking that medication, there are great risks involved. Unexpected side-effects and recurrance of symptoms are going to happen. It's not like taking aspirin for a sprained ankle. The mental illness doesn't just "go away".
While I understand that some people are don't have any tolerance for people of different political persusions than themselves, I am appalled that they would use mental illness as the sounding-board for that hatred. The only thing that threads such as this do is to nuture and feed the kind of ignorance and arrogance shown in the referenced reply. They do nothing to help the plight of the mentally ill and very little to further the education of the masses on the subject (with a few notable exceptions, thank you Miko2d!)
So, to counter this, I offer a couple of links that I ran across in my research on mental illnesses:
http://www.mentalhealth.com/p.html (http://www.mentalhealth.com/p.html) (excellent reference page)
http://www.mhsource.com/hy/links.html (http://www.mhsource.com/hy/links.html)
For those of you who truly wish to educate yourselves and make a difference in the world, I urge you to visit these sites.
For those of you who would rather remain ignorant of the subject and continue to spew venom at the world, well, all I have to say is that you are your own worst enemy. It's because of behavior like that that the ACLU and NOW exist in the first place ;)
Have a nice day and remember: TAKE YOUR MEDICATION ;)
Buhdman, out
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Holy cow! Except for supporting the death penalty, I agree with miko2d! This is a historic moment.
And Buhdman, well spoken. S!
I'm tempted to hijack (responding to some other replies) with a spiel about why the death penalty is always wrong and about where crimes tend to come from, and why you're all wrong ;)... but I won't. I'll simply say that the vast majority of crimes committed are not because the person involved is bad or evil, or wants to cause other people suffering and pain.
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sorry, but I think ANYONE who commits murder is "MENTALLY ILL" to one degree or another. Does that mean they all should be supported by these two groups??
I'm sure depression is a terrible thing but do us all a favor and off yourself and leave the rest of us alone....
*edit*
man, that sounded cold :)
what I mean is if someone is that feed up with life and unhappy, let them take it out on themselves and not the innocents that surround them..if they choose the latter, they should pay the price.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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In my opinion, in a compassionate society, and according to most state law, if it can be shown that the woman was mentally ill when she killed her kids, she would be treated and incarcerated until such time as she is not a danger to others, and not punished, based on the theory that a mentally ill person cannot form the necessary "specific intent" to commit the crime, or understand right from wrong.
If she wasn't mentally ill, and she simply murdered her kids out of anger, frustration, or for the insurance money, or some other normal emotion or motivation, she would be subject to punishment.
I think it's pretty tough to say what should be done in this case until all the facts are known. So far, a more clear-cut case is the case of the woman who sent her kids into a lake while they were belted into the rear seat of her car. All the elements of murder were present in that case. She should have fried in my opinion. I'm not so sure about this one.
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