Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TexMurphy on May 31, 2006, 10:16:42 AM
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Hey guys,
There is one thing that I just cant grasp.
The guys and gals who want to furball and not be part of the MA hoard constantly ask for changes to the MA, DA and BUMA inorder to create a environment that is focused around fighter to fighter combat. I can fully understand this desire.
What I dont understand is why dont you guys just play in the AvA instead of the MA????
The AvA is primarily about fighter to fighter combat and it has maps where bases are closer.
Is it because it doesnt have full plane sets and you cant always fly "your" fighter?
If that is the case then it really doesnt make sence to me because the ones of you who are most vocal about changes to MA, DA and BUMA inorder to create a more fighter friendly env are also the ones who are most vocal about MA only beeing full of Spit16s and LaLas.
Is it me that is missing something or isnt the AvA and its gameplay what the furballers are asking for all the time????
Tex
Ps. Please dont make this into a furballer vs toolsheder debate. I just wana know why furballers arnt attracted to the AvA in a bigger extent Ds.
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Why don't you non-furballers go to the AvA instead?
Edit: and no, the AvA isn't at all what I consider ideal.
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waste of time.
sort one thing out and the world will find another problem to grumble about and point the finger at something.
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Yeah the AvA is a fun diversion from the MA and when the MA maps suck the AvA is the only place if there are enough people in there.
The problems are:
1) Limited plane set. Yeah after a few hours the same match ups get stale. RPS helps a lot tho.
2) You don't get the shear numbers.
3) Side balancing can be lame, rare tho.
4) Guys are not always in fighter mode.
5) Sometimes it's tough to see where the fight is actually happening depending on the numbers.
6) Guys like Hub LOLH.:D
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The basic problem with the A v A is that in their quest for a nhitorically correct "balanced" planset divided upon Axis v Allied lines it is almost always one side that has faster B&Z aircraft while the other side has slower T&B aircraft.
It is "historically correct" and that's their goal. However, what you find is whichever side has the T&B getting Bored & Zoomed to sleep.
That's the primary problem and it is the antithesis of furballing.
Remove the restriction on A v A and it'd work fine... but that is EXACTLY what they don't want to do.
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I would like to see a couple DA rooms for 40 guys at most can join. Call it furball heaven. You have the MAIN AVA TA DA FH sounds good to me. I would drop in before i hit main every night. AW had a room like that..
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We do and its called H2H but only 8 can join.
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Originally posted by Toad
The basic problem with the A v A is that in their quest for a nhitorically correct "balanced" planset divided upon Axis v Allied lines it is almost always one side that has faster B&Z aircraft while the other side has slower T&B aircraft.
It is "historically correct" and that's their goal. However, what you find is whichever side has the T&B getting Bored & Zoomed to sleep.
That's the primary problem and it is the antithesis of furballing.
Remove the restriction on A v A and it'd work fine... but that is EXACTLY what they don't want to do.
What are you talking about? Do you even know who "they" are?
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Spits vs 109s = TnB vs BnZ? Hardly
Yaks vs 109s = TnB vs BnZ? Hardly
F4U-1 vs 109s and FWA-5 = TnB vs BnZ? Hardly
Tell me ONE of those matchups, which pretty much covers the last .......... 2 months? (ish).......
Which one is TnB vs BnZ only.
We've had at least 3 repeats of the BoB RPS that I can think of since we switched to AvA instead of CT for the arena name. There is a breif point (couple of days maybe?) where the Luftwaffe only has FW's, but thats pretty short out of 2 weeks for the planeset.
Italy can go sort of BnZ to the allies, but the Axis have FW's as well and the allies have P-40s. Show me someone that spends all their time in a P40 BnZing their prey and I'll show you someone with a short lifespan.
Tunisia? 109s vs Spits.
The ONLY maps I can think of where you have mostly BnZ on one side and mostly TnB on the other side is the Pac maps. We have had ONE installment of Okinawa I believe in the last several months. Someone correct me if I'm wrong? And that one was only 1 week I think. My memory may be confused though, in which case we have had NO Pac setups recently.
You need to get out more Toad. Either you have come in on the wrong days, or you havent been there in a looooooooong time and dont know what you are missing. The staff has been working really hard to make the AvA a place where you can always find a good fight. And it shows.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
The ONLY maps I can think of where you have mostly BnZ on one side and mostly TnB on the other side is the Pac maps. We have had ONE installment of Okinawa I believe in the last several months. Someone correct me if I'm wrong? And that one was only 1 week I think. My memory may be confused though, in which case we have had NO Pac setups recently.
The Ki-84 made a huge difference in the BnZ only PAC sets. That and the way the Hogs can TnB, problem solved as far as Im concerned.
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Well, I did say MOSTLY. :)
And yes, we'd LOVE to have any of you MA furballer types come to the AvA. More the merrier. Just leave your HOs at home. Well, I take that back. VWE hasnt been around in awhile, we have room. lol
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hehe:D
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
Hey guys,
There is one thing that I just cant grasp.
The guys and gals who want to furball and not be part of the MA hoard constantly ask for changes to the MA, DA and BUMA inorder to create a environment that is focused around fighter to fighter combat. I can fully understand this desire.
What I dont understand is why dont you guys just play in the AvA instead of the MA????
The AvA is primarily about fighter to fighter combat and it has maps where bases are closer.
Is it because it doesnt have full plane sets and you cant always fly "your" fighter?
If that is the case then it really doesnt make sence to me because the ones of you who are most vocal about changes to MA, DA and BUMA inorder to create a more fighter friendly env are also the ones who are most vocal about MA only beeing full of Spit16s and LaLas.
Is it me that is missing something or isnt the AvA and its gameplay what the furballers are asking for all the time????
Tex
Ps. Please dont make this into a furballer vs toolsheder debate. I just wana know why furballers arnt attracted to the AvA in a bigger extent Ds.
I enjoy downing La7's in a Spit5 or a Hurry Mk.1. No debate needed, planeset means nothing to me.
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AvA is the best aranea for fighters hands down, you just need numbers, but when you get the numbers the fighting is outstanding and challenging.
My 2
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Last time I went to the AvA, about a month a go, it was SpitV versus A5. There were six Brits and one LW on so I went LW even though I hate flying their hardware. Flew over the channel and was berated for not T&B'ing with multiple Spits.
Yeah THAT was fun!
I've had fun in the CT before, but there needs to be at least 30 folks on at one time in order to hold my interest for long.
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I probly go on the wrong days but I like to call the AvA arena the "all LW all the time" arena... seems that they allways figure out a way to have 190's in the thing.
The AvA arena is exactly what is wrong with a AvA rolling plane set. while the matchups are not bad... they would be ten times better with the ten times the variety if it was not AvA.
let's say... AvA... you have a spit vs a 109... every single fight will be some amount of 109's vs some amount of spits... one strength against another.
now... a non AvA set with spit and 109... you could have fights like above plus 109 spit combos in any of a myriad of numbers vs ... all 109's or all spits or any number of combinations of em... 1 spit and 9 109's vs 10 spits or 5 spits and 5 109's or...well, you get the picture...
The more planes added to the set that are useful... the more the possible combos.
I don't think the LW dominated AvA will ever do that tho.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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The same story different author. Nothing to see here move on!
Oh by the way now for something completely different! (Monty Python)
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i170/Dablues/thfleet3.gif)
:t
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When it comes to the TnB vs BnZ I can agree with that BUT ONLY when its 190s vs Spit5s... that is a horribly booring matchup....
Other then that you dont really see TnB vs BnZ..
I also find it funny that you guys mention numbers as a problem.
What do you rather have 200-400 hoarding cherry picking pilots or 10-30 that actually wana fight and arnt timid?
I mean for me its not how many its HOW they fight....
Tex
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the AvA gameplay is even more boring than the MA, IMOTBH.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I probly go on the wrong days but I like to call the AvA arena the "all LW all the time" arena... seems that they allways figure out a way to have 190's in the thing.
The AvA arena is exactly what is wrong with a AvA rolling plane set. while the matchups are not bad... they would be ten times better with the ten times the variety if it was not AvA.
let's say... AvA... you have a spit vs a 109... every single fight will be some amount of 109's vs some amount of spits... one strength against another.
now... a non AvA set with spit and 109... you could have fights like above plus 109 spit combos in any of a myriad of numbers vs ... all 109's or all spits or any number of combinations of em... 1 spit and 9 109's vs 10 spits or 5 spits and 5 109's or...well, you get the picture...
The more planes added to the set that are useful... the more the possible combos.
I don't think the LW dominated AvA will ever do that tho.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Actually it seems more setup to make sure the Spit XVI is excluded as much as possible -
2 recent examples -
Sink the Tirpitz - Nov 1944, Spit of choice would be LF IXc/e, (IXe being the XVI). What did they put in, the VIII.
Italy - Was set yet again late 1944, Spit would have LF XIc/e, yet again XVI excluded. Totally ignoring the SAAF, RAF units that used it (LF IXe). In fact one of the XVI skins I did was used in the Italian campaign.
So it's an AvA arena in as much as they can set things up to exclude what they dont want even if it was there.
You will also notice that some LW rides are added earlier than they were available, with a coinciding lame excuse for it.
For e.g
Aug/Nov 1944
add Fw190D (yes, the early ones didn't quite
have the performance of ours for another month
or so, but in light of all the allied rides
available, I think this is ok)
Another month? Try not available till at earliest Jan 1945, they were ready to be deployed at our boost settings end Dec 1944.
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The AVA can be fun if the number are good and the setup is working. Other times it's not. It certainly is not a Furballing arena where you can get into an engagement quickly, die, re-up and get right back into it.
The thing that some of the "win the war" types don't understand is that some of us are looking for "quality" air-to-air combat. Now that can be part of the "win the war" aspect of the game but for the most part it is not. Mostly because of the way 80% of the "win the war" type play the game. They strive to avoid the enemy as opposed to engage the enemy. They use the tactics of overwhelming force, eliminate any chance of opposition by flattening a base, fly 5 sectors behind the line to attack an undefended field. All of which completely stops any chance of a good air-to-air engagement. Does it achieve their desired goal? Yes. Does it make those of us that want to engage another pilot in air combat want to joins their effort? Most times no.
There have been many times where I have had fun participating in an effort to capture a base. Most of these were attempts to capture a strategically important base that it was known was going to be heavily defended. Same goes for defending bases.
If you search these boards or monitor 200 you will find that what the "furballers" complain about is not that the "win the war" types wanting to capture bases or win the reset. It is the griefers who will fly bombers over a furball and flatten the fighter hangers with no intention of taking the base because they think that will make the "furballers" join them in their "war effort". Nothing could be further from the truth.
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Originally posted by lazs2
now... a non AvA set with spit and 109... you could have fights like above plus 109 spit combos in any of a myriad of numbers vs ... all 109's or all spits or any number of combinations of em... 1 spit and 9 109's vs 10 spits or 5 spits and 5 109's or...well, you get the picture...
We heard you, and others, say this. So we tried it. Lots of people came. For one night, sometimes two. They they all melted away.
Only conclusion I've been able to come up with is (1) people gravitate to the arena with most numbers; (2) people want to stick with their squads, which are in the MA and which, for inertia or other reasons, can't be moved to AvA; and (3) people want to fly their favorite planes.
As to (1), it's a vicious cycle, but a good point is made by Tex that quality fights aren't dependent on numbers. Hey, bring your friends, I'm sure some will always come, and we've had some folks do just that with good results.
As to (2), I don't think there's anything we can ever do to change this.
As to (3).....well, hey, there ARE weeks when your favorite plane is available, stop in then. We change the setups frequently - weekly, if not daily.
AvA will never appeal to the "goal" crowd of war winners and team players, but I'm with Tex in bemusement that more of the "I just want a good fight" crowd don't stop in there more often.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually it seems more setup to make sure the Spit XVI is excluded as much as possible.
This is the other side of Lazs' coin. No matter how many planes you enable in a smaller arena, if the Spits are enabled, everyone will fly the Spits. The fights then become very lopsided, with the guys in FWs and G6s trying to figure out how long they really want to keep getting shot down before they quit for the night.
Having said that, there is a vociferous Spit-proponent group in the AvA, so we also run setups that feature that plane. Most fun was probably when we had all the Spits v. the Ki84.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman731
This is the other side of Lazs' coin. No matter how many planes you enable in a smaller arena, if the Spits are enabled, everyone will fly the Spits. The fights then become very lopsided, with the guys in FWs and G6s trying to figure out how long they really want to keep getting shot down before they quit for the night.
Having said that, there is a vociferous Spit-proponent group in the AvA, so we also run setups that feature that plane. Most fun was probably when we had all the Spits v. the Ki84.
- oldman
So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.
Perhaps a rename is required - Axis (including LW planes before service dates) v Allies (excluding as much as possible, Spits esp XVI)
Shame the Germans couldn't do the same, isn't it.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.
Perhaps a rename is required - Axis (including LW planes before service dates) v Allies (excluding as much as possible, Spits esp XVI)
Shame the Germans couldn't do the same, isn't it.
Imagine if HT would have labeled it a LF IX.
Omg the whine . :D
Bronk
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Originally posted by Kev367th
So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.
No, they exclude it because if they include it, there will be ZERO players willing to fly LW. No LW=no arena.
Originally posted by Bronk
Imagine if HT would have labeled it a LF IX.
Omg the whine .
Doesnt matter what its named, it still would be very rarely used.
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Kev...
I agree that better dates should be set for introduction... would be great if you could input with your knowledge when the rotations are set up...
But for me it aint that crusial its the quality of the fight that matters for me... and AvA has great fights...
Tex
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually it seems more setup to make sure the Spit XVI is excluded as much as possible -
2 recent examples -
Sink the Tirpitz - Nov 1944, Spit of choice would be LF IXc/e, (IXe being the XVI). What did they put in, the VIII.
Italy - Was set yet again late 1944, Spit would have LF XIc/e, yet again XVI excluded. Totally ignoring the SAAF, RAF units that used it (LF IXe). In fact one of the XVI skins I did was used in the Italian campaign.
So it's an AvA arena in as much as they can set things up to exclude what they dont want even if it was there.
You will also notice that some LW rides are added earlier than they were available, with a coinciding lame excuse for it.
For e.g
Aug/Nov 1944
add Fw190D (yes, the early ones didn't quite
have the performance of ours for another month
or so, but in light of all the allied rides
available, I think this is ok)
Another month? Try not available till at earliest Jan 1945, they were ready to be deployed at our boost settings end Dec 1944.
What a weak joke of an argument this is.
The point of the Tirpitz set up was to highlight a player suggested F4U/F6F vs LW set up. If you would have bothered to read the forum you would have known this.
Good point on the D9 though. Very relevent:aok
If you dont want to fly the AvA, fine and dandy. Not your cup of tea? No problem. Its your $15 and your choice on whats fun. More power to you. No need for the anti AvA propaganda.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.
Perhaps a rename is required - Axis (including LW planes before service dates) v Allies (excluding as much as possible, Spits esp XVI)
Hmm . .
D9 = Eny 18, if I am not mistaken.
Spit XVI = Eny 5
P-51D = Eny 6
P-47N = Eny 10 (I believe)
Typhoon = Eny 10
So obviously it is SOOO imbalancing to introduce the D9 a tad early. :rolleyes:
All you have to do is look at the Rhine map after Tempests are enabled to see why some planes are limited at times. Regardless of the planes that are enabled on the Axis side, there always seems to be a fairly decent mix of aircraft (2-3 different 109s, a couple 190s, the OCCASIONAL 262 in late war), but on the Allied side you are surprised if you see anything but Spit XVIs or Tempests after they are enabled.
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Originally posted by E25280
Hmm . .
D9 = Eny 18, if I am not mistaken.
Spit XVI = Eny 5
P-51D = Eny 6
P-47N = Eny 10 (I believe)
Typhoon = Eny 10
So obviously it is SOOO imbalancing to introduce the D9 a tad early. :rolleyes:
All you have to do is look at the Rhine map after Tempests are enabled to see why some planes are limited at times. Regardless of the planes that are enabled on the Axis side, there always seems to be a fairly decent mix of aircraft (2-3 different 109s, a couple 190s, the OCCASIONAL 262 in late war), but on the Allied side you are surprised if you see anything but Spit XVIs or Tempests after they are enabled.
So the allies have to struggle through late 1941, to mid 42 with Spit Vbs vs FW's, but OMG can't give the allies the same advantage late war, you have to enable D9 2-3 months early.
Hope you realise how LAME that sounds.
Any RAF fighter scenario (obviously depending on what theatre/what you are trying to re-create) from mid 44 has to include the XVI (LF IXe), LF versions of the IX very almost exclusively the only version built 1943 onwards.
It got the 'e' wing June/July 1944.
I'd like to see it with 50cal or .303 options (i.e LF IXc. LF IXe), then see the excuses for leaving it out of mid 43 scenarios.
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ENY is more a measure of how much a plane is used, than it is a measure of how good a plane is.
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I enjoy the fights in AvA when there's 20 + on , seems to need that many for the fights to gain momentum.
MA in my time zone has around 100-150 usually (never more than 200) , at that time of day, a good fight can actually be found most of the time. The smaller maps work better with that number. Also seems to be a fairly regular crew of vets or longer term players who are hardcore enough to play at that time, which also increases the quality of the fights
The MA with 500+ is just pretty much a gang banging no-skill debacle it seems to me, so I tend to either go to the AvA or DA when there's that many in the MA
I can see the dilemna of the MA for you guys in US time-zone , but not sure what the answer is. I like Hajo's idea of an overflow furballish type arena using the beta terrain though , it would give you folks another option when the MA is at it's worst I'd go in there for sure. It'd only need 20-40 ppl to function fine , and it would operate all times of the day. Be fun to have the choice available though
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Some golfers like to pitch and run....some like to lob or hit a flop shot.
Having a variety of choices is a plus. Most of us that have been participating in Aces High for about 7 years seem to like to dogfight. Others like to defend, some like to obtain the reset. I would venture to say that those who participated in Betas 1 and 2 liked and still like the gut wrenching hands trembling dogfight against a good opponent.
It's good to see new people enjoying the game....and there seems to be a good number of them. I and most others offer help when asked and encourage them when they don't become Dick Bong on their first sortie.
I would venture to say that the majoirty of Vets could care less about points. Most just look for a good fight. Not 40 on 2 mind you but something near a equal battle. I would also say that most that have been playing for a good percentage of 7 years are less likely to HO....yes it is a legitimate shot, Divebomb Lancasters, B17s flying with seeming impunity 4K over a field and drop. I would assume also that most wouldn't be in a 30 plane horde taking a base......nothing wrong with that mind you but that's just not our style. Variations in gameplay a great thing! And who is anyone here to tell someone how they should play the game?
New Players? I don't blame them for flying in good numbers. They are more secure that way! They have more of a chance to be successful that way and it's not a bad idea! Builds confidence and educates at the same time. I would surmise that all of us did the same when we were first introduced to online flight sims for the first time actually battling another human being.
What I guess I'm trying to say is with maybe age and experience being a factor most Vets look for the good fight....winging with a squaddie setting up a shot....making an opponent fight your fight and not his. There's something more to it for us I guess. It's the fight...the thrill...the not being angry when you get shot down because we realize It's our fault and not our opponents.
Variations of gameplay. Choices......when they become limited it becomes difficult to sometimes enjoy the game......but it's like that perfect 320 yard drive you hit on the last hole.....no matter you hit the next one 200 yards sideways......it's that 320 yard drive you remember and what keeps you coming back for the game.
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Originally posted by Hajo
I would venture to say that the majoirty of Vets could care less about points. Most just look for a good fight. Not 40 on 2 mind you but something near a equal battle. I would also say that most that have been playing for a good percentage of 7 years are less likely to HO....yes it is a legitimate shot, Divebomb Lancasters, B17s flying with seeming impunity 4K over a field and drop.
That is not a venture sir, that is a sure thing.
The problem most of us who love the older style of gameplay have is that there are 5,000 + (or so) CPIDs logged into the MA every tour. I know not every one of them is a paying subscriber, there are trial-guys with zip-code-IDs and folks who get their accounts for free. But I'd wager there's a roughly equivalent number (maybe higher) of folks who pay but cannot log in during a tour or three due to RL constraints. So you do the math...$15/month X 5,000 X 12...hard to make the business-case that the old gameplay was a better idea than the new gameplay.
Folks, at least the masses, obviously prefer a MA with 500+ players smashing bases to dust with 15:1 odds and having 4 to 6 hordes roaming around while avoiding contact each other, to the 2-hour long 30v30 furballs of old. You cannot blame HTC for catering to the majority, this is a business.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I'd like to see it with 50cal or .303 options (i.e LF IXc. LF IXe), then see the excuses for leaving it out of mid 43 scenarios.
You dont read well do you? I told you why its left out. No LW=no arena. There isnt much point in adding a plane (for a person I have never even seen in the Arena in question) when it will clear the arena of folks who play LW.
I've told you before, it is not a matter of dates, its a matter of performance.
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I never seen the non AvA in the CT (AvA arena). It should have been cool.
I also agree tho that you don't need 500 people in that arena to have fun... I like it when there are only 20 or so but they are dedicated furballers... in this case... they don't fly fluffs and they don't horde and they don't go anywhere on the map except the two closest fields.
The AvA planesets are boring to me... I don't even care if they have my "favorite" plane.... what I want is to have one of my "favorite" planes and to be able to fight against it at the same time.
one fin rus setup had FM2 substitute for a buffalo... weird but hey... I flew La5 just to fight the FM2... I would much rather have upped a FM2 and fought the FM2.
Seems to me that the only thing that keeps the AvA afloat is a few dedicated squads that go there a lot... they want AvA planesets and they keep the nuimbers at from 4-20 I don't see how non AvA planeset could have less numbers.... you say you tried it for a few days?
How so? one time period? if so... I see some of the AvA setups that get a few the first days and then drop to zero on other nights.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by Grits
You dont read well do you? I told you why its left out. No LW=no arena. There isnt much point in adding a plane (for a person I have never even seen in the Arena in question) when it will clear the arena of folks who play LW.
I've told you before, it is not a matter of dates, its a matter of performance.
Sorry grits then the AvA is a farce. If they don't want to be historically correct call it something else. Call it : What if arena
From now on all whine from the we want historical accuracy in the AVA and we strive for accuracy should be Ignored. I don't want to hear a peep about the FM2 subbing for the Brewster.... and the list goes on.
Bronk
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Bronk,
Do you remember when the CT almost died? Literally and fully died? And then it staggered a step for one more gasp at life. Then do you remember how it almost died again, right after that?
The AvA is on life support. It's stable but it is on life support. Just as you don't feed a heart attack patient a cheeseburger, you don't enable the spit16 in most AvA setups. Why?
If you do you will 100% kill off the arena. No more players. Bye-bye.
That is a fact.
The reason the spit16 is withheld most of the time is becuase this arena is so sparsely populated. It's not like AH1 times. You don't tell liver transplant patients to go on a drinking binge, you don't tell people with shattered hip bones to "walk it off," and you don't enable spit16s in the AvA.
When the AvA has *STEADY* 40+ numbers, then enable it. Until then, your argument seems more the whine than theirs is.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Sorry grits then the AvA is a farce. If they don't want to be historically correct call it something else. Call it : What if arena
Bronk,
I a perfect world all planes would be included, the fact is like it or not, if included the Spit16 would leave the arena vacant and that is why it is left out.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I never seen the non AvA in the CT (AvA arena). It should have been cool.s
Oddly enough, I don't think it pleased anyone (these were the two fightertown weeks we ran almost a year ago). The regular AvA crowd was distressed to see FM2s fighting FM2s. The MA regulars thought it was fun for a night or two, and then disappeared, for the reasons I guessed at earlier.
AvA never had, and probably never will have the mass appeal that the MA holds. Still, it gives you a variety of plane sets and a dedicated crew of people who like to fight for the sake of fighting (if only because there's no other reason to go there). If you tire of flying the same old plane, then just stop in once or twice a week (and, btw, don't you find that you fly the FM2 quite a lot already?). We'd love to have you.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Grits
You dont read well do you? I told you why its left out. No LW=no arena. There isnt much point in adding a plane (for a person I have never even seen in the Arena in question) when it will clear the arena of folks who play LW.
I've told you before, it is not a matter of dates, its a matter of performance.
So like I said, it's not Axis v Allies, it's a handpicked planeset to ensure the LW have at least parity, preferably an advantage.
Late 41 to mid 42 a PRIME example, they have adv and rightly so, Vb's v 190's.
Yet in 1944 to even/balance things out the 190D9 HAS to be introduced 3 months ahead of time....does double standards and hypocrasy leap to mind, IT SHOULD.
Wouldn't say never, but I have popped in to the A v A a few times.
One of the reasons I didn't bother going back was the 'handpicked' planeset. It's fine for the LW to have their advantage, but no-way can the Allies have theirs when ITS APPROPRIATE.
As long as it's continued to be run on the LW must have parity or an advantage at all times (even if it means introducing them months ahead of when historically accurate), can't see me bothering.
A v A was a good idea, skewed by the LW fans.
Dam hilarious how a 1943 LF IX with a Merlin 266 and 50cals causes people to wet their pants in their late war rides.
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Originally posted by Grits
Bronk,
I a perfect world all planes would be included, the fact is like it or not, if included the Spit16 would leave the arena vacant and that is why it is left out.
Grits sorry I don't buy it . Either you strive for accuracy or you don't. It's that simple. All I read on this board is the whine about the XVI. Then come the corresponding chest thumping aww they aint that hard to kill crap. Well which one is it?
Shame the Germans couldn't make the Brits stop flying it so the AvA could be more accurate.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Kev367th
So like I said, it's not Axis v Allies, it's a handpicked planeset to ensure the LW have at least parity, preferably an advantage.
Late 41 to mid 42 a PRIME example, they have adv and rightly so, Vb's v 190's.
Yet in 1944 to even/balance things out the 190D9 HAS to be introduced 3 months ahead of time....does double standards and hypocrasy leap to mind, IT SHOULD.
Wouldn't say never, but I have popped in to the A v A a few times.
One of the reasons I didn't bother going back was the 'handpicked' planeset. It's fine for the LW to have their advantage, but no-way can the Allies have theirs when ITS APPROPRIATE.
As long as it's continued to be run on the LW must have parity or an advantage at all times (even if it means introducing them months ahead of when historically accurate), can't see me bothering.
A v A was a good idea, skewed by the LW fans.
Dam hilarious how a 1943 LF IX with a Merlin 266 and 50cals causes people to wet their pants in their late war rides.
Donn't forget underboosted there Kev.
Bronk
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oldman... you had the non ava ct running for a couple of weeks? with different planesets?
What planes did you use?
I don't care that much which planes are in the set so long as it is not AvA limited... that gets old really fast for me. In the MA I fly the FM2 allmost exclusively because I really don't like the fast planes.... there is never a worthwhile fight in em it seems. My experiance is that in late war planes you either die to a group of 6 of em or run from a group of six of em or... if you find one alone you chase him till he gets away or you catch him and he dies without a fight.
I have used the CT. with mixed results.
I think that the reason it is on life support is also the reason it can't change.... a couple of dedicated axis squads who want it as a personal playground.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think that the reason it is on life support is also the reason it can't change.... a couple of dedicated axis squads who want it as a personal playground.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Ding ding, give the man a ceeeeegaaar.
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Originally posted by lazs2
oldman... you had the non ava ct running for a couple of weeks? with different planesets?
What planes did you use?
IIRC (I wasn't staff at that time yet) it was 2 bases with early war planes (1 base per country), 2 with mid-war and 2 with late-war... It was based on the fighter-town idea that was brought up here in general discussion a while (has it been a year already?) ago.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
So like I said, it's not Axis v Allies, it's a handpicked planeset to ensure the LW have at least parity, preferably an advantage.
Late 41 to mid 42 a PRIME example, they have adv and rightly so, Vb's v 190's.
Yet in 1944 to even/balance things out the 190D9 HAS to be introduced 3 months ahead of time....does double standards and hypocrasy leap to mind, IT SHOULD.
Wouldn't say never, but I have popped in to the A v A a few times.
One of the reasons I didn't bother going back was the 'handpicked' planeset. It's fine for the LW to have their advantage, but no-way can the Allies have theirs when ITS APPROPRIATE.
As long as it's continued to be run on the LW must have parity or an advantage at all times (even if it means introducing them months ahead of when historically accurate), can't see me bothering.
A v A was a good idea, skewed by the LW fans.
Dam hilarious how a 1943 LF IX with a Merlin 266 and 50cals causes people to wet their pants in their late war rides.
I have NEVER seen you in AvA.... Unlees you go by a different tag...
BTW you must be a puffychested Spit Ace eh??? Sure seems that way by what you post... Why do you cry and nag so much about a spit16?
I'd love to see you in the AvA mayb you can show me a thing or two :t
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Grupul 7 Vanatoare nose art? Looks cool ;)
(http://grupul7vanatoare.homestead.com/files/QuickSiteImages/image00.jpg)
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You need to chillax...Website is being updated....cuz you know a tour DID jus finish right??
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Originally posted by Kev367th
As long as it's continued to be run on the LW must have parity or an advantage at all times (even if it means introducing them months ahead of when historically accurate), can't see me bothering.
A v A was a good idea, skewed by the LW fans.
Dam hilarious how a 1943 LF IX with a Merlin 266 and 50cals causes people to wet their pants in their late war rides.
Originally posted by Bronk
Grits sorry I don't buy it . Either you strive for accuracy or you don't. It's that simple. All I read on this board is the whine about the XVI. Then come the corresponding chest thumping aww they aint that hard to kill crap. Well which one is it?
Shame the Germans couldn't make the Brits stop flying it so the AvA could be more accurate.
I pose a challenge to you two guys. Come to the AvA when the LW have only the 109G-6 and the 190A-5 and fly LW against the Spit VIII or XVI for a whole week and see if your opinion is the same.
If after you do that, you still honestly have the same opinion then I will concede the argument.
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Hey Kev I heard someone enabled a spit mkV to see if this would make you stop by...
Wudya say? :t
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Originally posted by Platano
cuz you know a tour DID jus finish right??
Ohh, you have different flower each tour? How nice! :aok
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Originally posted by Platano
I have NEVER seen you in AvA.... Unlees you go by a different tag...
BTW you must be a puffychested Spit Ace eh??? Sure seems that way by what you post... Why do you cry and nag so much about a spit16?
I'd love to see you in the AvA mayb you can show me a thing or two :t
Not been in for a long, long time, and don't use some lame shades account.
I very, very, very, rarely fly the XVI, just don't see why if you fly allies its totally OK to be outmatched (Vb v 190), yet it's not OK for the reverse to happen.
As Laz said, it a personnel playground for a few certain axis squads.
Grits you should really take a look at the planeset -
When XVI is available, LW has :
G14
A8
Hardly the poor old G6 and A5 you mention.
2 days later you get the -
K4
and 3 months ahead of time the D9
HARDLY the week you mention either.
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I'm not gonna waste my time with that uhh 2horny guy up there...
As for you Kev I have an Idea..tonight for the first time in I dont really care how many years why dont you stop by the AvA cuz there a spit in the hangar with your name on it...
And even you know that if a spit16's is enabled all allies will fly spit16's and that just makes it another MA which we try to stay away from...
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Originally posted by Platano
I'm not gonna waste my time with that uhh 2horny guy up there...
True, I was off-topic a bit. Eventually we could discuss flower topic in DA. I've heard you became very skilled in that flower-wagon-109E of yours (pretty ride) :aok
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Originally posted by Kev367th
As Laz said, it a personnel playground for a few certain axis squads.
None of the staff members are members of "a few certain axis squads" (myself excluded, I'm a Finn after all?), and the people who fly in the AvA don't decide the setups. But the help is appreciated (thanks to Sable for the RPS Schedule, and to Storch for the Tirpitz-setup). Maybe you could step forward and suggest a setup featuring Spit XVI with a few selected opponents on a historical terrain we have available here in AH? Or maybe we will have it (edit, the SpitXVI) on the next Italy and Tirpitz rounds...
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Originally posted by Kev367th
I very, very, very, rarely fly the XVI, just don't see why if you fly allies its totally OK to be outmatched (Vb v 190), yet it's not OK for the reverse to happen.
Now I'm more confused than usual.
I'd thought you didn't visit the AvA because you were offended that it didn't feature the Spit 16 often enough. But now you say you wouldn't fly it anyway. What's the complaint?
I also thought this thread was directed to people who wished they could have an opportunity for more good fights, and were distressed by the prevalence of Spit 16s and La7s in the MA. If you're one of them, wouldn't you want to fly where the sides were relatively evenly matched, and had at least more semblance of historical reality than the MA has?
Finally, if inaccuracies like the Dora being enabled two days sooner than it should have entered the RPS are enough to keep you away from the AvA, how can you possibly prefer the MA, where Doras fight Doras fight Lasz' FM2?
- oldman (stumbling around with eyes crossed)
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last i heard it was "aces high" not the game of risk
just like i dont log into ww2 online and expect every 1 to be in fighters
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Interesting -if not outright hilarious thread.
:D
-C+
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Finally, if inaccuracies like the Dora being enabled two days sooner than it should have entered the RPS are enough to keep you away from the AvA, how can you possibly prefer the MA, where Doras fight Doras fight Lasz' FM2?
- oldman (stumbling around with eyes crossed)
Cuz the MA doesn't claim to be historically accurate...unlike the Holy
accurate AvA.
Bronk
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Ohh, you have different flower each tour?
What's wrong with flowers then? :)
(http://static.flickr.com/56/154338337_2a9c31c944.jpg)
photo (C) wasq
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Originally posted by Bronk
Cuz the MA doesn't claim to be historically accurate...unlike the Holy
accurate AvA.
Bronk
So, you would like to have another non-historical furball arena then? With the current AvA, all fronts are missing some significant planes. Late war Western Europe is the best represented, but it would get boring soon to have only one setup to run...
edit: can't resist.. must say... the Brewster Model 239 to Aces High! :D
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Originally posted by Panzzer
What's wrong with flowers then? :)
Absolutely nothing. I love flowers. :rofl
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_284_1078683722.jpg)
screenshot (C) Eskimo2
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Originally posted by Panzzer
So, you would like to have another non-historical furball arena then? With the current AvA, all fronts are missing some significant planes. Late war Western Europe is the best represented, but it would get boring soon to have only one setup to run...
No but when a plane that was available it should become available .
Ohh and to Grits the times i fly in the AvA .I have usually jumped to the side with the smaller number and have to jump back to even it out. I don't really die when my cartoon plane is shot down so i don't care what I fly against.
Bronk
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has the name calling begun yet?
hap:noid
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Regarding how interesting the fights can be....
Yak9U vs 109G2-G6 is propably one of the most even matchups there is...
Currently both sides can have the BnZ and TnB "advantages" as the setup is so well ballanced... infact alot matchups like the 9U vs G2 dont have a distinct style advantage...
Today has been the day with the best fights in months.
Tex
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Originally posted by Bronk
Cuz the MA doesn't claim to be historically accurate...unlike the Holy
accurate AvA.
Bronk
Go ahead dig up when and where then current AvA staff made claim that all sets will be 100% historically accurate 100% of the time while always catering to a LW squads whims and wishes. I'll settle if you can find where its even implied.
Assumtions, personal bias, baseless accusations, and lies. You guys consider that a valid argument?
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Originally posted by Bronk
No but when a plane that was available it should become available .
Ohh and to Grits the times i fly in the AvA .I have usually jumped to the side with the smaller number and have to jump back to even it out. I don't really die when my cartoon plane is shot down so i don't care what I fly against.
I dont know why you say that, I've never said anything about how you fly. I'm not an Axis or Allied player either, my squad exists to switch sides so we can help keep things even. Because of that, I and the other members of my squad, probably get to see more clearly the good and bad side of setups in the AvA from a plane performance and balance of play point of view.
I am clearly not making myself understood, so I will try one more time.
The AvA has never said it was the Historic or nothing arena, we (Im only a player, not staff) have always had to fudge here and there to make things play well even if its not 100% accurate. The old PAC setups before the Ki84 are a good example, the Axis were SERIOUSLY overmatched, and as a result those setups, if not empty for that week, there were very very low numbers even when we gave the A6M5 in place of the A6M3. In the ETO there are fudges, like the FM2-Brewster sub (which I absolutely HATE just for the record) that is not a great sub historicly, but it does PLAY well. We used to have to use the 16+ boosted SpitV in '41 because its all we had, and the setups played TERRIBLE. The UberBoosted SpitV made it impossible to have a balanced '41-early '42 setup which was one of the best. There are many many others where a little give made things much more playable.
There are also several planes, not just the Spit XVI, that dont get regular use in setups because they throw playbalance off, like the C-hog, 262 and the Tempest. There aare also many times where we use Allied planes before that model was really in use because its all we have. The F4U-1 is used in late '43 even though its flight model is actually an F4U-1a from '44. The P-47D-11 is used in place of the P-47C. The F6F-5 is used in place of the F6F-3. Before we got the P-38J we used the L in its place. We also use the 109F-4 in place of earlier 109F's. We use the 110C for earlier versions of that model. We use the 190A-5 in place of the 190A-3. We make lots of concessions because of gaps in the planeset, but the key is, none of those have disasterous impacts on playability (fun).
The bottom line is, wether you like it or not, if a particular plane causes the arena to be empty because it makes for poor gameplay you are not going to see that plane very often. What good would it do to have a perfectly accurate AvA where nobody played because the setup sucked?
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Originally posted by Panzzer
So, you would like to have another non-historical furball arena then?
I'm not speaking for anyone else but...yeah.
Give me an arena where all propellor planes are enabled except those with 4 engines. Take out all ground targets and strats (or harden them by 100,000X). Take out all ordinance, troops and field acks too. Disable all GVs and make all bases in a circle with about a 30 mile diameter. An RPS would be interesting but not a requirement.
You did ask :D
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Originally posted by TexMurphy
What I dont understand is why dont you guys just play in the AvA instead of the MA????
I think a big part of it is people still want to be part of the overall community, and that community lives in the MA.
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Originally posted by Edbert1
I'm not speaking for anyone else but...yeah.
Give me an arena where all propellor planes are enabled except those with 4 engines. Take out all ground targets and strats (or harden them by 100,000X). Take out all ordinance, troops and field acks too. Disable all GVs and make all bases in a circle with about a 30 mile diameter. An RPS would be interesting but not a requirement.
You did ask :D
Umm thats what the MA is for...you want to be able to fight off hordes of every plane in there is than stay in the MA..
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Originally posted by Platano
Umm thats what the MA is for...you want to be able to fight off hordes of every plane in there is than stay in the MA..
With all due respect...have you ever been in the MA? I ask becuase the MA is NOTHING like what I posted, it hasn't been since soon after beta.
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I would like to have seen the CT go by era and not be an AvA arena... I would like the planes divided into eras based on performance and either side could chose any plane in the era... a FM2 could fight another FM2 or a spit 5 or a 109e or P40 ... next era you might see a spit 8/9 fight another spit 8/9 or a 109g or a hog... last would be all the uber fast planes.
I would love a CT (now AvA) arena like that with 30 or so guys on..
I would not like it to be 5 or 6 guys against 6 or 8 guys all from one squad. that is boring... the squad becomes a mini horde in the AvA in my experiance... even if the numbers are even... they are not... the squad players function as a team and they pick off the individuals on the other side.
That and the boring planesets make the ava a place that I don't go to very often... also, while a lot of the guys are pretty mature... some of the egos are a tad fragile.. Gawd knows I have wound a few of em up to the snapping point...
I have seen some really good planesets when a tour starts out but... people in the ava get into a grove pretty quickly and start using the planes available in only a very narrow performance window pretty quickly... the fights become predictable in the extreme. High LW rides and teamwork versus agil and low allied individuals.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
I have seen some really good planesets when a tour starts out but... people in the ava get into a grove pretty quickly and start using the planes available in only a very narrow performance window pretty quickly... the fights become predictable in the extreme. High LW rides and teamwork versus agil and low allied individuals.
Certainly no one wants to force people to fly in the AvA. But just out of idle curiosity, now that you've said why you don't like AvA, why is it that you prefer to fly in MA?
- oldman
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oldman... I do get to fight allied planes in the MA when I am in an allied plane... I am able to move to another area (most of the time) that is not so bad when a group/horde/squad is harvesting an area and it is really bad. I fly at times when numbers are up... if there is a CV... I get a good earlyu war fight for about 10 minutes to an hour before some lemming kills the light bulb fragil thing.
All agianst different players in non AvA planests... I really think AvA planesets are boring. Even the dullest amoung us learn to use them in the narrow ways they can be used agianst the narrow ways of the enemy in very short order.
making it non AvA multiplies the variety expotentialy.
But... I am just saying what is wrong in my opinion which is much easier than doing the actual work. A lot of work goes into those setups. I would suggest that those who are offended by my analysis simply ignore what I have to say and figure out some other reason why the AvA is on life support... I would suggest that they listen to the few guys who have a vested interest in keeping it AvA and are at least keeping it alive..
lazs
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laz
I respect that you do want to be able to fight against ALL planes from ww2 in which ever plane you choose to fly in. It answers the original question and intent of this thread.
If that is more important to you then having non hoard fights that arnt disrupted by landgrabing then the AvA isnt your cup of coffee. No big deal really.
Personally for me when I wanan just fight in a fighter the AvA setting is actually more fun because the fights there arnt hoard type. I really hate the hoard.
What I would be very causious about though is calling the fights which come from the AvA planeset narrow and predictable. In some cases they are if its forexample 190A5s vs SpitVs. Then definatly yes you are right.
But if you take a look at the current planeset in the AvA
Axis
109E4, F4, G2, G6, G14, K4
190A5, 190D9
110C4-b, 110G-2
FM2
Hurri1
Allies
HurriI2c
SpitV
P40E
Il2
La5, La7
Yak9T, Yak9U
There are so many type of fights that can spur from this that its just as varied as the MA. In the MA your enemy will either be in a plane similar to yours, in a faster plane or in a more agile plane. The enemy force will have a combination of similar, faster and more agile plane then yours. Your force will have the same combination.
With this planeset its the EXACT same thing.
With other planesets what your saying is valid, its narrower. But with this that argument aint valid.
But still all I wanted to know is why the AvA isnt a better furballing place then the MA since the AvA doesnt have any of the issues that the furballers are complaining about with the MA.
Tex
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Make the DA map hosptiable to furballing! Allow a central communications channel on the radio! Make a 'fighter town' arena (hasn't happened in 6+ years, so I doubt there will be one).
By 'fighter town' arena I mean an arena with:
1. Limited number of bases, not 40 or 20, but six or three.
2. High ack accuracy and lethality, specifically the non puffy kind. Place ack in a pattern (perhaps use a large field model) to stop vulching and allow 5K alt before leaving ack protection area.
3. Relatively flat terrain with few trees and maybe a mountain or two. Lakes and water are ok.
4. No Ground vehicles or boats, or bombers (i.e. 'fighter town').
5. Allow up to 200 members.
6. Switching sides can be done at will with no time limit.
7. Keep fuel modifiers the same as MA.
8. Allow clouds and time changes as in MA.
9. Turn off plane collisions. Keep kill shooter.
10. Have a scoring system with perks.
The AvA is not a furballing arena. While it appears this is an unclear concept, the AvA is a historical arena. Believe it or not, furballs didn't really happen much from a historical perspective. People found out that a great turning plane is not the one that shoots down most others. Fast planes with good armament and pilot cooperative tactics do that. Not furballing.
Regards,
Malta
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Thats why furballers dont want to be there. Furballing has more to do with SA and reflexes, and using a planes turn. It isnt historical but it is fun. I like both arenas, because I like all aspects of the game. I save the coop/speed stuff mainly for the AVA or events.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would like the planes divided into eras based on performance and either side could chose any plane in the era... a FM2 could fight another FM2 or a spit 5 or a 109e or P40 ... next era you might see a spit 8/9 fight another spit 8/9 or a 109g or a hog... last would be all the uber fast planes.
spit vs another spit??
That wouldnt be "AXIS vs ALLIES"
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Originally posted by Edbert1
With all due respect...have you ever been in the MA? I ask becuase the MA is NOTHING like what I posted, it hasn't been since soon after beta.
Yesir I have been in the MA..... and I've been in there enough times to know that the MA is just like what I posted..:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lazs2
oldman... I do get to fight allied planes in the MA when I am in an allied plane... I am able to move to another area (most of the time) that is not so bad when a group/horde/squad is harvesting an area and it is really bad. I fly at times when numbers are up... if there is a CV... I get a good earlyu war fight for about 10 minutes to an hour before some lemming kills the light bulb fragil thing.
All agianst different players in non AvA planests...
Hey, I think that's all great. From reading these boards, it's easy to get the impression that the MA is full of uber-plane HOers who won't fight and who only travel in hordes. I think that was Tex's concern when he started this thread.
- oldman ('twas what I'd thought, too)
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tex... certainly the one example that you gave of a planeset does give some variety... My point is still valid tho.... no matter how much that planeset gives in variety... the exact same planeset that was not AvA would give 100 or more times as much POTENTIAL variety in each fight.
Bad as the MA is... it is not limited to AvA so.... if you do find a fight it will be a good one... you also have the chance of running into someone flying the same plane you are.... impossible in the AvA.
I have spent some time in there as oldman will attest and I have fun for a night and then.... well... it get's pretty darn boring.... I do Ok till my mind goes numb from the same old fight... the same axis or allied plane doing the same thing... the same old LW squad working the same old ones and two's allied guys from their alt perch.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by Edbert1
I'm not speaking for anyone else but...yeah.
Give me an arena where all propellor planes are enabled except those with 4 engines. Take out all ground targets and strats (or harden them by 100,000X). Take out all ordinance, troops and field acks too. Disable all GVs and make all bases in a circle with about a 30 mile diameter. An RPS would be interesting but not a requirement.
You did ask :D
I agree with Edbert. Give the furballers a seperate arena. :t