Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Simaril on May 31, 2006, 04:17:23 PM
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Originally posted by Toad
...snip...
Simply put, the game rewards actions that result in boring gameplay.
Until that is addressed we'll have ..... boring gameplay.
Gotta agree that behavior of the group responds to system incentives, and incentives havent been adjusted for higher player base. But I dont think thats the main problem.
After all, we have admit that a lot of SOMEBODIES seem to find the AH2 as it stands pretty entertaining. After all, the numbers DO keep going up -- and that means new players are both coming to see, and hanging around.
How do I know that there's been growth? I picked a larger squad at random, Dantoo's 9Giap. Then I looked at low flight time members, and saw what the rank was for a zero entry in a category. In May of 2005, the worst category score was 3750; this month it was about 4730.
25% growth...so from HTC's business perspective, where exactly is the problem?
We'd best just face it, gentlemen (OK, gentlemen in the generic sense only) -- the "war" is fun for a lot of people. Furballers may think its pointless, but that feeling is, well, beside the point. People are buying the current HTC product in ever increasing numbers.
And that is an all around GOOD THING for those who like the fight. A healthy HTC means we have the game, and the forums, to kick around and enjoy.
For those who like the fight, the best course is simple.
1) Stop focusing on manipulating the game's format to get what you want. HTC has a fairly open ended setup, which CAN allow furballs and war winning. That freedom has allowed all player types to do what they want, whether its furballing, picking, hording, defending, or capturing. The current MA is the sum product of its users choices – and their abilities.
It's fair to assume that most guys would like to be known, even feared pilots. (Well, as feared as cartoon killers can be, anyway.)
And that should be where the fighter people come in.
2) Start trying to get converts. Watch the channels, and find guys who are discouraged or wishing they could get more kills. When you see a good move, PM the pilot and tell him about it...and offer to show a few related ones. Seek out and volunteer to wing with up-and-comers.
For most journeymen, the capture is exciting only so long. After that, most (not all) want to become a better player if they can. Show 'em how.
In short....lets try to use more MA honey, and less BBS bile (and "wine"); lets stop talking to HTC, and spend that energy improving the MA ourselves. It can happen. But it needs to be one pilot at a time.
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There's a war going on?:confused: Seriously as little as I have been recently playing, I have totally forgot about the who war and base capture and just tried to find a good furball, or flown with my squad.
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Want to have fun? Put down the late war birds and fly a P40B or something like that. Game is much more fun to me when otd in an old bird killing spit16s and la7s. I wish more people would try some planes from before 1943, loads of fun.
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Sounds like you are advocating common decency and personal responsibility Simaril....BLASPHEMY in this hooray for me, **** you world we live in. Burn the Witch!
Sir.
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Nuthin as tastie as a freshly BBQed witch ....
mahaaahaaa
Gatr
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Originally posted by Gatr
Nuthin as tastie as a freshly BBQed witch ....
mahaaahaaa
Gatr
Apart from flambe'd baby Seal.
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That of COURSE would be the dessert...
"flambe'd baby Seal"
Gatr
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"spend that energy improving the MA ourselves."
lol. You may as well call youself Don Quixote and attack a windmill.
"Sounds like you are advocating common decency and personal responsibility Simaril.."
Noble and worthy. But the game dynamics repel things like that. Like oil and water the internet-based MA and those attributes won't mix.
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Hehehehe
Cmon now, and in a perfect world everyone is rich and gets along and there are resources that will last for ever. Your attempt is nobel sim, but misguided.
After all, we have admit that a lot of SOMEBODIES seem to find the AH2 as it stands pretty entertaining. After all, the numbers DO keep going up -- and that means new players are both coming to see, and hanging around.
Yeah this game is very appealing to the noob, and not so appealing for the guys that get past the noob stage and just want some good ole fast paced, heart racing action when they log in. The real numbers for these types are not the newbies, but retention rate.
1) Stop focusing on manipulating the game's format to get what you want. HTC has a fairly open ended setup, which CAN allow furballs and war winning. That freedom has allowed all player types to do what they want, whether its furballing, picking, hording, defending, or capturing. The current MA is the sum product of its users choices – and their abilities.
So your saying stop advocating shorter hops and more fighting. Your premis that "That freedom has allowed all player types to do what they want, whether its furballing, picking, hording, defending, or capturing. "
is also misguided. If I could log in and find a good furball every time you would be correct. The fact that the furb is just an after affect of gameplay is the problem. The fact that most nights = long flights to fight against nothing or 20 V 1 is means I don't get to do what I want. And I am not alone.
2) Start trying to get converts. Watch the channels, and find guys who are discouraged or wishing they could get more kills. When you see a good move, PM the pilot and tell him about it...and offer to show a few related ones. Seek out and volunteer to wing with up-and-comers.
These boards and topics are a means to get the message out. #2 is much easier said then done. 90% of the people in this game will help, but they are not going to offer it up there. What you may have hit on tho, is how the noobs are being trained. The overall theme of the training corp seems to be more focused on the "stay alive at all cost" theory rather than, "fight, fight hard and learn from your mistakes."
This is not a jab at the training corp, just a different view of how the game can be approached. If more people recognized it is not the staying alive that is so important as much as it is putting up a good fight then this game would be very much different.
While yes we could affect the MA one pilot at a time, the turnover rate makes this almost useless, especialy when HT could fix if not ease the problem very easily by reworking the maps and hardening things like carriers and FHrs etc.
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Ok, enough of that. Now back to the game to have some fun.
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Originally posted by aztec
...snip....
BLASPHEMY in this hooray for me, **** you world we live in. Burn the Witch!
Sir.
(http://furballunderground.com/gallery2/data/media/33/HolyGrail026.jpg)
I'm not a witch! They dressed me like this!
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I'm not sure that manipulating the noobs so that they adopt my particular views on the game is any better than asking for some reworking of the game's setup.
Well, we did do the nose... and the hat... but she's still a witch!
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Originally posted by mars01
Hehehehe
Cmon now, and in a perfect world everyone is rich and gets along and there are resources that will last for ever. Your attempt is nobel sim, but misguided.
Yeah this game is very appealing to the noob, and not so appealing for the guys that get past the noob stage and just want some good ole fast paced, heart racing action when they log in. The real numbers for these types are not the newbies, but retention rate.
.......snip.....
While yes we could affect the MA one pilot at a time, the turnover rate makes this almost useless, especialy when HT could fix if not ease the problem very easily by reworking the maps and hardening things like carriers and FHrs etc.
Originally posted by Westy
"spend that energy improving the MA ourselves."
lol. You may as well call youself Don Quixote and attack a windmill.......
Yeah, I hear what you guys are saying...and you're right as far as it goes.
Think of it this way: imagine AH was a, I dunno, suburban Karate dojo.
The fun, the challenge, the REAL karate happens with the seriuos students. They're usually older, they want to learn, they discipline themselves, they advance. Their program retention and commitment levels are high. Sensei gets his satisfaction from these folks.
But, the sensei gets the bulk of his monthly income from the cute little 8 year olds in their little ghis and their little belts. They strut, they "fight", sometimes they even learn a little -- and then most of them drop out, to be replaced by another batch of rugrats. Only a few stay on to join the serious group.
I'm suggesting that we can increase the retention rate and the MA skill level by adopting promsiing young 'uns and proactively mentoring. The trainers cant do this, because there's too few of them and because their system relies on already motivated people COMING TO THEM.
Could cahnged mechanics make a difference? Sure -- but HTC's business is booming, and if I were them I'd go slow in making wholesale changes to a successful formula, especially since the primary complainers are the most seriously committed and thus leastl likely to quit in large numbers.
How many threads have there been on the state of the MA? How many changes have we seen made? Its time to stop holding our collective breaths while we wait for HTC, and do something we CAN do
Seriously -- if most fighter guys managed to mentor one pilot a year, it could make a HUGE difference. Think of all the guys who populate the center during donut....and double it.....
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Simaril
could not agree more with the tone of your post and most of its content.
hap
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Originally posted by mars01
The overall theme of the training corp seems to be more focused on the "stay alive at all cost" theory rather than, "fight, fight hard and learn from your mistakes."
Can't really speak for the Training Corps, but I have been often enough in TA to know that's simply not true. For the most part, trainers do great job.
Why don't you show up in TA time to time? You might convert a noob or two and make a "fighter pilot" out of them...
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Originally posted by Simaril
Yeah, I hear what you guys are saying...and you're right as far as it goes.
Think of it this way: imagine AH was a, I dunno, suburban Karate dojo.
The fun, the challenge, the REAL karate happens with the seriuos students. They're usually older, they want to learn, they discipline themselves, they advance. Their program retention and commitment levels are high. Sensei gets his satisfaction from these folks.
But, the sensei gets the bulk of his monthly income from the cute little 8 year olds in their little ghis and their little belts. They strut, they "fight", sometimes they even learn a little -- and then most of them drop out, to be replaced by another batch of rugrats. Only a few stay on to join the serious group.
That is a fine analogy Sim, probably one of the best ones I've seen.
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Simaril : Wise post grasshopper.
HiTech
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Can't really speak for the Training Corps, but I have been often enough in TA to know that's simply not true. For the most part, trainers do great job.
I did NOT say they were NOT doing a good job. I have been told on these boards by more than one trainer that their goal is to help the noob stay alive. I am going on what they have said here. As for going into the TA - Well if someone asked me for help I would do what I could for them and have done it in the past.
I'm suggesting that we can increase the retention rate and the MA skill level by adopting promsiing young 'uns and proactively mentoring.
See here is my problem, sure you get a horse that wants a drink of water, so you take em to it. Now they are in the same boat as you. They want to log in and find a fight, but alas they go through the same things we are going through. Long flights to fight no one or everyone with a dash of what we are all longing for to keep us hoping.
In your example the seriuos students can always go to the dojo to train and fight. Now make the dojo like aces high, it only has fighting and training for the noobs. So the seriuos students rarely get to do advanced training and they always have to fight like noobs. That is where AH is at. We can always log in and play like a noob, but when you want a nice furball you have to hope it is your lucky night. Great for the noobs but tiresome for the Vets.
Sure I don't blame HT for catering to the noobs and the money, I would to. But like I said there are some simple things they can do to apease both sides and make everyone happy. In the long run I would think that would affect their bottom line more.
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Y'know, Sim, my response to the "we can make the MA what we want" idea would be something rather Draconian along these lines:
Lets get some organized Horde-Buster groups of veteran players together and just go wherever an enemy Horde is attacking our countries. If the "rules" won't disuade Horde tactics, constant failure probably would.
No captures or porking or anything like that ... just an air supremacy role over home turf. No need to spool up new squads either, just have a radio channel for "Horde Alert" that all the old fogeys monitor to be alerted to drops in the ambient IQ which indicate a Horde is building.
And then wait for the sweet, sweet whines about "we need to perk the veteran players" ... hehe ...
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Originally posted by Simaril
Yeah, I hear what you guys are saying...and you're right as far as it goes.
Think of it this way: imagine AH was a, I dunno, suburban Karate dojo.
The fun, the challenge, the REAL karate happens with the seriuos students. They're usually older, they want to learn, they discipline themselves, they advance. Their program retention and commitment levels are high. Sensei gets his satisfaction from these folks.
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Yeah, but in the dojo the n00bs don't get to go around kicking the serious students in the nuts while they try to train.
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Originally posted by mars01
I have been told on these boards by more than one trainer that their goal is to help the noob stay alive.
Yes, how to stay alive in a fight, ie how to win a fight in order to live, which is NOT how to avoid fight.
Originally posted by mars01
As for going into the TA - Well if someone asked me for help I would do what I could for them and have done it in the past.
So, the Mountain has to come to the Prophet?
Or in todays terms: if that chick would ask me to go out with her I would, she doesn't, so I remain a "not getting laid today" geek...
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You don't get it bighorn nor are you reading what I wrote. You are reading what you want and then posting to your twisted incorrect translation. Move along.
Or in todays terms: if that chick would ask me to go out with her I would, she doesn't, so I remain a "not getting laid today" geek...
Sorry dude I have no idea what you are talking about here. You have some weird terms that you operate by for getting chicks.
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Originally posted by mars01
You don't get it bighorn nor are you reading what I wrote. You are reading what you want and then posting to your twisted incorrect translation.
My translation: Simaril talks about alternatives and how we can change few things if we want without actually changing the system.
You disagree and put blame on how noobs are trained and how the system does not suit our needs and has to be adjusted to make us all happy.
HiTech makes himself clear that there will be no adjustments to the system in near future.
You still want your way without actually doing anything for it, criticizing those who actually (or want to) do something about proactivelly.
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Ok.. I think we all see that the MA is booming and the new players that are making it so are also... to a certain extent... ruining the gameplay.
An RPS would be making a big leap that might hurt business.. I think we can all see that.
I think that we can all see that maybe some of the boom in business has to do with.... well... there isn't anywhere else to go for WWII simmers who don't want a structured allied vs axis limited planeset.
I don't think the newbs care much about a lot of things so long as they get to shoot at the other planes or buildings and maybe... feel like they are having a chance to win... to win either some ground or a fight...
they need to be part of a horde with reall really really simple targets that matter to win ground or... they need a plane that is really really simple to get kills in by HO or surviving by running in.
Soooo... how to make an arena that still works for them without making the guys a little higher up on the learning curve throw up their arms and walk away in disgust?
The fighter town map works... some place to furball and it hurts no one... the numbers are still high maybe even higher in that map...
Another way in my opinion would be to make a few maps with the fields at the minimum distance HT sets.... 3/4 of a sector apart... I think that the minimum he set was a good one. I just think that it is not utilized enough.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Y'know, Sim, my response to the "we can make the MA what we want" idea would be something rather Draconian along these lines:
Lets get some organized Horde-Buster groups of veteran players together and just go wherever an enemy Horde is attacking our countries. If the "rules" won't disuade Horde tactics, constant failure probably would.
No captures or porking or anything like that ... just an air supremacy role over home turf. No need to spool up new squads either, just have a radio channel for "Horde Alert" that all the old fogeys monitor to be alerted to drops in the ambient IQ which indicate a Horde is building.
And then wait for the sweet, sweet whines about "we need to perk the veteran players" ... hehe ...
Understand that I'm just looking for SOME way to make a difference. Fight guys will always be outnumbered by the lemmings, but the more fight guys there are the more likely they'll be to end up fighiting each other.
In other words, instead of just whining about gameplay, I want to DO SOMETHING (however small) to improve things.
The Horde Busters is an Excellent idea. Our squad has done this occasionally on a smaller scale, mission busting by arriving over a capped base and killing baddies "from the top down." It is a major fun time.
IIRC, the common channel was exactly the way that the LCA started their team system -- the idea that "if you want to hook up with a mission, just tune to 111". There is a kinda Zen poetry in fighters doing it back...
So we could spread the word, "222 for horde busters" of all countries, or 110 for country channel.
I'm in!
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Again bighorn your translation is incorrect and twisted thus so are your conclusions. Reread what I wrote and maybe you will get it, but I am not wasting any more time on you. I'll let you have the last post, thus I am done with you until you stop reading what you want into my posts and read them for what is written.:aok
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Yeah, but in the dojo the n00bs don't get to go around kicking the serious students in the nuts while they try to train.
:rofl :rofl
So I guess this would be a karate variant of the head on attack?
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$10 says that within a week there will be a post by some player about this new type of "experten" horde ruining thier fun ;)
Just sayin...
(FWIW a "horde buster group" is the most appealing thing to pop up in over two years on these boards. (Besides CT/TOD) Almost enough for me to want to plug the hotas in, subscribe and do that online dogfighting thang)
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Sim it would be nice if there were a way to make a difference. I was once there too. So you try and then start to see that nothing really makes a difference and you sooner or later come to the realisation that the only person that can change things is HTC.
That is where the whole furball under ground thing came from. We tried the com on country and 200. It seemed everytime you said "Ok Furballers good fight at A134" the horde would follow or the fun Nazis were there to drop the hangers.
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way that the LCA started their team system -- the idea that "if you want to hook up with a mission, just tune to 111". There is a kinda Zen poetry in fighters doing it back...
Not to bring up dead horse...but when my squad left rooks and went nits at first, this happened a lot...nits would say "huge raid to xxx, prolly LCA"...then "yep its LCA, i just kilt so and so"...off we ride to xxx and pounce mission....really not sure how many missions I took part in dismantling. Point is, after many failed missions, they kept coming..and coming...and coming.
Now when I fly with rooks, I still see on country channel "Mission up...join blah blah blah" , followed by..."drop all FHS!!!!", followed by"drop all FHS!!!"...vh up, gvs out...town up, gvs in town....goon ded...."drop all FHS again, they up"....town up, gvs out, vh up...."FH down"..."keep the FH down, we can get this"....town up, goon down from high alt defense from close by base.
They didnt learn much, from what I can tell. Of course this is all my opinion and what Ive seen.:aok
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So lets see up to now it's the fault of -
Toolshedders
Lemmings
Win the war guys
Buff pilots
Newbies
Well geez that doesn't really leave many left does it?
Or could it be it's the usual VERY VOCAL MINORITY trying to dictate to the MAJORITY how the game should be played?
Not disagreeing or agreeing with any point, just pointing out the OBVIOUS.
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Originally posted by Westy
$10 says that within a week there will be a post by some player about this new type of "experten" horde ruining thier fun ;)
Just sayin...
(FWIW a "horde buster group" is the most appealing thing to pop up in over two years on these boards. (Besides CT/TOD) Almost enough for me to want to plug the hotas in, subscribe and do that online dogfighting thang)
I expect the whines about it. I would also expect such threads to be excellent summertime reading. Hell, ch200 might get very entertaining too.
In the grand scheme of things there's probably no way for players themselves to stop The Horde. But this could provide a way for us oldsters (furballers and otherwise) to have some fun with it.
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Originally posted by Westy
"spend that energy improving the MA ourselves."
lol. You may as well call youself Don Quixote and attack a windmill.
(I disagree Westy...Don Quixote was unsuccessful. I've seen cases where Sims' suggestion has succeeded.)
"Sounds like you are advocating common decency and personal responsibility Simaril.."
Noble and worthy. But the game dynamics repel things like that. Like oil and water the internet-based MA and those attributes won't mix.
(I'm sad to say that for the most part I agree here Westy. And unfortunately it is pretty much the same with most all of the online pusuits I've entered into. But...every little bit counts, and I'm just here doin time anyway.)
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I dont think gameplay is anyone's "fault" -- it is what people choose to make it. And, the majority of paying subscribers DONT think there is a problem to fix. They're out there playing, they're not on the boards complaining.
The very existance of the furballer minority is clear evidence that the incentives built into the system dont direct whether we like one form of gameplay or another. They DO affect HOW players go about reaching the goals they like, but they dont make a furballer suddenly want to drop the hangars.
So you cant reasonably expect any tooling HTC does to make people want to play the way you do. Thats just how it is, and thats why I think involvement with individuals (repeated by hundreds of mentors) is the best way to shape the MA. In other words, mentoring might increase fighter guy retention realtive to the hangar killers and thereby shift the balance of player preferences in the game.
( An aside -- I strongly suspect that the biggest reason for the horde is simply lower skill level. I know that in my first months I couldnt survive without 2:1 advantage -- why would you expect the unskilled to keep trying 1v1 when they always lose? The motivated ones will eventually seek training, but I cant begin to tell how many times I've heard "I know I suck in fighters, but I'm not going to get any better so I just have fun while I die."
If we could see skill levels rise, so that the median KPD was closer to 1.0 [right now it appears that half of the MA has below a 0.5 KPD, half above] we'd see FAR more fighting..... )
But in any case new rules from HT wont make the MA into furballers' heaven, simply because the majority dont like to (or can't) play that way.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I dont think gameplay is anyone's "fault" -- it is what people choose to make it. And, the majority of paying subscribers DONT think there is a problem to fix. They're out there playing, they're not on the boards complaining.
The furballer minority is clear evidence that the incentives built into the system dont direct whether we like one form of gameplay or another. They DO affect HOW players go about reaching the goals they like, but they dont make a furballer suddenly want to drop the hangars.
So you cant reasonably expect any tooling HTC does to make people want to play the way you do. Thats just how it is, and thats why I think involvement with individuals (repeated by hundreds of mentors) is the best way to shape the MA. In other words, mentoring might increase fighter guy retention realtive to the hangar killers and thereby shift the balance of player preferences in the game.
( An aside -- I strongly suspect that the biggest reason for the horde is simply lower skill level. I know that in my first months I couldnt survive without 2:1 advantage -- why would you expect the unskilled to keep trying 1v1 when they always lose? The motivated ones will eventually seek training, but I cant begin to tell how many times I've heard "I know I suck in fighters, but U'm not going to get any better so I just have fun." If we could see skill levels rise, so that the median KPD was closer to 1.0 [right now it appears that half of the MA has below a 0.5 KPD, half above] we'd see FAR more fighting..... )
But in any case new rules from HT wont make the MA into furballers' heaven, simply because the majority dont like to (or can't) play that way.
So now you're gonna play the common sense card Sim....EVIL! Hmmm, you're not suggesting life is what ya make it are you?
Sir
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Originally posted by hitech
Simaril : Wise post grasshopper.
HiTech
Wait a minute!!!!!!
Who are you???? What have you done with HiTech????
Nothing is mis-spelled here?!?!?!?!?!?!?!:D
(OH P.S. I find I agree, good post)
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So you cant reasonably expect any tooling HTC does to make people want to play the way you do. Thats just how it is, and thats why I think involvement with individuals (repeated by hundreds of mentors) is the best way to shape the MA. In other words, mentoring might increase fighter guy retention realtive to the hangar killers and thereby shift the balance of player preferences in the game.
You guys have to get off the "So you cant reasonably expect any tooling HTC does to make people want to play the way you do. " stuff. Your just plain wrong. I could care less if people want to Ho, Horde, Vulch etc. What most people want is a place where you can always find a fight and you don't have to fly 5 mins to get there. If that were supplied then I could give a crap what the rest of you do. Those that want to fight will be there.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
Want to have fun? Put down the late war birds and fly a P40B or something like that. Game is much more fun to me when otd in an old bird killing spit16s and la7s. I wish more people would try some planes from before 1943, loads of fun.
Try the AvA :aok
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Originally posted by mars01
What most people want is a place where you can always find a fight and you don't have to fly 5 mins to get there.
I think thats where u are mistaken. From what I've seen furballers are the minority.
U have to remember there are ALOT of noob/average players, and it's EASY to take down a FH.
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Nice post sim
I will put forth my idea again of a good map:
1) only front line bases a couple deep are capturable
2) noone can be "reset"
3) maps switch every 3 days automatically
4) there is a fiter town and tank town on every map with uncapturable bases and 40k walls
5) around each tank/fitertown and uncapturable base are unkillable deadly acks that decimate vulchers/campers
As the leader of the Birds of Prey (94 members) i can say that i enjoy all aspects of the game. I only take bases because if you dont you end up with the pointy side of the AH stick and your country gets ganged as the other 2 try to "win" the war. I spend approximately half my time porking troops in a lala and have been labelled a "lala dweeb" from those who die while i do this. It would be great to have maps that one can have fun with without the "reset" threat that leads to the "hording"
one last observation for the l33t "fiter only" jocks...you are major "horder" or "lemmings" as well....very few of the above choose outnumbered/disadvantaged fights. I understand that havign multiple wingmen and pals around is more fun....so do the "toolshedders" you spew venom at. It is not uncommon when fiting rooks to run into "hordes" of "fiter only" guys who linger around bases picking off enemy that clear a perimeter. i recognize this as a legitimate tactic but fail to see any difference between them and the "hordes" of basetakers who do the same. perhaps the only difference is the toolshedders dont "call you out" on ch200 or up "special missions" with advantages to take you out as well and gloat about it. they seem to have more maturity as newbs as you do as "vets" :O
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I'm a long time single player simmer, but new to Aces High II.
I subscribed a month ago, and I haven't had this much fun playing a "game" in a long, long long time.
One of the things I like the most *is* the strategy of attempting to capture various bases, and defending your own from being captured. My kills/deaths ratio is absolutely terrible, because I *enjoy* attempting to take off at a base that's under heavy attack, and engage the enemy.
I enjoy being able to coordinate with my fellow pilots towards a direct goal, such as flattening an enemy airfield. I enjoy the 10 or 15 minute flight time from my airfield to the enemy's.
Why?
Simple!
Anticipation.
I find that the anticipation of, and then the subsequent action seen are equal in enjoyment, and both contribute to the experience equally. Sims have always been about immersion, for me, and I'm not just talking graphics - gameplay is the biggest component of immersion, and AH2 delivers in spades.
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I think thats where u are mistaken. From what I've seen furballers are the minority.
Yep when I said most people I was refering to Furballers, that being the context.
Visigothan - Yep so were most of us the first couple of years, then you hit that point where what you described gets very routine and mundane.
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Originally posted by mars01
Yep when I said most people I was refering to Furballers, that being the context.
Visigothan - Yep so were most of us the first couple of years, then you hit that point where what you described gets very routine and mundane.
For me, pure TnB furballing got mundane.
What I really enjoy now is being with 2 or 3 people of similar experience/skill levels and working as a team and just going out on a frei jagd for half an hour or so. When you get a group like that where everyone sees what's going on and does the right things there's nothing else like it.
It's kind of the antithesis of what Mars/Lasz like but one doesn't negate the other.
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It's kind of the antithesis of what Mars/Lasz like but one doesn't negate the other.
WTF are you talking about Dok. IF your talking fighting with a wingman who doesn't like that? If your talking about getting 3 guys loading up bombs and blowing crap up then yeah your right. LOL
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Originally posted by mars01
WTF are you talking about Dok. IF your talking fighting with a wingman who doesn't like that? If your talking about getting 3 guys loading up bombs and blowing crap up then yeah your right. LOL
I meant the half-hour flight part.
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Dok your turn in the barrel.
:D
Bronk
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The dojo analogy is good.
Negative, superficial potshots at most ideas seems to be the norm around here, because it's easy, I suppose. The fallacy with that mindset is that it's easy to try things. If it doesn't work out, improve it until it works, or drop it - no harm done and no money lost.
Mentoring one-on-one is fine. The trainers do a superb job, I'm sure. But what about between training session?
Years ago I proposed a Training Squad - a squad that new guys could join for a couple months to learn how to have fun with others while they learn more about the game in the MA. While some squads invite anyone, it doesn't mean that they instill attitudes that make the MA more fun. Many times the new guys are used for cannon fodder ("All you new guys go de-ack that large field, so we can set up a vulch!" or, "Dive bomb those lancs over and over until you sink the CV!").
A training squad with some basic principles that could teach by example:
- How to appreciate a good fight without going nuts if you lost.
- How to have fun without HOing everything in an La-7.
- How to wing up, have fun and laugh while flying an FM2 or Spit I into a furball.
- Being recognized for fighting that good fight in a P-40, even if you didn't land 2 kills.
- Take them on a variety of squad missions to experience every part of the game, not just low-alt, T&B dogfights, but killing gvs, taking a field, flying bombers above 500' AGL, a gv assault
- Change countries every 10 days just to get to hear the voices of people who shot them down, or they shot down.
All with the constant goal of having fun, some laughs and getting recognized for their improvement until they're ready to move off to another squad. No permanent squad members except for the squad leader - they all move off after 1 or two months.
Of course, it was soundly critized before, and will be criticized again here. All it needed was a little internal promotion from HTC as a MOTD in the MA once in a while, or in the Training Arena, but that didn't, and won't ever happen.
I wanted to do set it up before because a fresh batch of enthusiatic newbies every month or so would be a diversion from the mind-numbing boredom with the MA many players feel once in a while. We just have to get used to the fact that nothing is going to change because nothing is going to change to change it.
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I meant the half-hour flight part.
If your talking about a half hour flying around circle jerking each other and not fighting then yeah that sucks.
If your talking about a half hour fighting then you couldnt be more wrong. You guys that think furballing only last a few seconds between flights must not be very good at it.
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Originally posted by mars01
If your talking about a half hour flying around circle jerking each other and not fighting then yeah that sucks.
If your talking about a half hour fighting then you couldnt be more wrong. You guys that think furballing only last a few seconds between flights must not be very good at it.
I guess it's just easier to say anything different sucks.
Whatever. I've lost interest.
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I guess it's just easier to say anything different sucks.
WTF are you talking about Dok? Time for the meds...
Who's saying "anything different" sucks, you? It seems you are trying to pigeon hole myself and Laz for whatever reason. If you were really reading along you wold notice how silly your remarks are.
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If your talking about a half hour fighting then you couldnt be more wrong. You guys that think furballing only last a few seconds between flights must not be very good at it.
That's about like saying Matt Hughes is a terrible fighter because he only fought Royce Gracie for 1 minute and 39 seconds.
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Originally posted by mars01
What most people want is a place where you can always find a fight and you don't have to fly 5 mins to get there. If that were supplied then I could give a crap what the rest of you do. Those that want to fight will be there.
Here ya go! It's called the DA. Now that it's porked for anything else, just choose up sides with a bunch of guys and go at it night after night, day after day, ad nauseum. All yours for the furballing. Leave all that other crap, like teamwork, coordination, cooperation, organization, communication, goalsetting, etc. for the MA.
Now go away and play.
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Originally posted by mars01
Yep when I said most people I was refering to Furballers, that being the context.
Visigothan - Yep so were most of us the first couple of years, then you hit that point where what you described gets very routine and mundane.
So in essence your saying, you originally enjoyed the full "immersion" gameplay and teamwork aspect of the game until you slowly grew bored and now only seek individual combat as the most stimulating way to enjoy the game.
AND now, you and the rest of the veteran Furballers-Only Club (FOC's) want everyone else (espcially newbs) to skip past (read fast forward) what should be their first two years of enjoying the immersion part, and jump right to the part where they are as bored with the gameplay/base-taking as you are, and diligenly provide you with targets as they endeavor only to engage in furballs.
OK, now I understand. Got it.
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Maybe I'm a bit simplistic, but I think all Mars asked for is closer fields, so you can quicly find a fight and when your field is horded you can move to another one without having to look at the clipboard map for minutes in search of a good place where you can find other fights without the need of 10 15 minutes of flying.
He never said the others have to skip any phase of the gameplay, he just wants not to have to waste time for finding his own fun. And I think HTC shouldn't deny him this.
Simaril, as I've already told you, you're a wise man. :) Unfortunately I think your ideas, as well as Rolex's, will hardly find any use.
Btw, if someone put a horde buster gang up, I'm in! :D
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lets face it... the strat and gameplay and maps are designed so that no fighting the horde is really possible not to mention... fun.
The horde has all the advantages... they don't have to be good.. It doesn't matter how many die because they feel that they are "helping" it matters not that they lose 20-30 guys if they can take out the radar and the fighter hangers.... you also have the peee 51 guys who will hit the figthter hangers at an undefended near field.
hordeing the horde on the surface sounds allmost fun... two hordes clash and you have... a fight! nope... you have one group of lemmings throwing themselves at fighter hangers....
You can allmost hear the sigh of relief in the voices of the talentless horders when the FH's go down.... such a relief.... to not have to engage in air combat anymore in an air combat sim..
Nope... the reason we have hordes is that the game is designed for em...
I think that simply moving most of the fields to the minimum 3/4 distance apart would greatly improve gameplay for the people who like to fight without driving off the talentless newbie.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Tilting at windmills? Maybe.
I just like the idea of trying to DO something constructive instead of wallowing in whines.
Realistically, there are only 2 choices. Either we:
A) accept AH as it is, or
B) we do something to change it.
If you're going to select A, then stop whining and enjoy what we have. If you're going to select B, then stop whining and do something.
What can we do? Well, we can make our concerns known. I'd have to say this base is thoroughly covered; in fact, the horse is probably as bruised as a dead thing can get. Put a checkmark beside "tell HTC what you think the probelm is."
If HTC doesnt make changes -- for the reasons explained above -- then we have to take over.
1) Base separation is not something that HTC does for us. Everybody who says center bases should be 3/4 sectors away, and bases should have a fightertown center, well -- band together and manufacture some maps.
2) If you dont like the low skill level of the population, what are your suggestions for changing it? Don't expect HTC to throttle down their business so you're happier; not gunna happen.
So what are the fighter guys gunna do? What choices will the furballers like the BKs make?
If we all choose business as usual, no involvement or change efforts from us, then we should (with all respect) Shut The Heck Up.
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Originally Posted by:Sloehand
AND now, you and the rest of the veteran Furballers-Only Club (FOC's) want everyone else (espcially newbs) to skip past (read fast forward) what should be their first two years of enjoying the immersion part, and jump right to the part where they are as bored with the gameplay/base-taking as you are, and diligenly provide you with targets as they endeavor only to engage in furballs.
OK here is another great example of the moronic reading what they want instead of reading what was written. I guess your hands aren't the only thing that are slow.
Originally Posted by:Gianlupo
Maybe I'm a bit simplistic, but I think all Mars asked for is closer fields, so you can quicly find a fight and when your field is horded you can move to another one without having to look at the clipboard map for minutes in search of a good place where you can find other fights without the need of 10 15 minutes of flying.
He never said the others have to skip any phase of the gameplay, he just wants not to have to waste time for finding his own fun.
And here is a great example of someone who can read what is written and understand what was said. Gian and thank you for showing not everyone on these boards is a moron!
If we all choose business as usual, no involvement or change efforts from us, then we should (with all respect) Shut The Heck Up.
Sim while I think your post is nobel and your enthusiasm is great, I guess we'll just have to wait for your efforts to go into affect. When you realize we have very little ability to change this game ourselves, what will you do?
Shut the heck up or lobby like the rest of us.
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And just to drive my point home a little more Sim, not trying to be a jerk.
Go to this post: Same Idea (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126739)
Originally Posted By: mars01 from link above.
The point of the post was to start a dialog where we might figure out a way to help people attain skills while getting the word out that this kind of behaviour is not really fighting or if the community deems it is a valid form of fighting then so be it.
Did you see the date 8/11/04 I am not trying to discourage you and I hope you have a lot better luck at changing what is going on. But my past expieriance is what I am speaking from, not my arse.
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Mars, whether you mean to or not you do give the impression that you think that anything short of diving into a low furball 30-seconds from the end of the runway is worthless. Maybe that's what's fun for you, but you apply such a harsh value judgement to everything else that it's no suprise you get the reactions you do.
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Mars, whether you mean to or not you do give the impression that you think that anything short of diving into a low furball 30-seconds from the end of the runway is worthless.
Could you please cut out and post some quotes that give you this impression. Please show me my harsh judgement with my own words.
I have said it many times I am here to fight. The longer the fight, the bigger the battle the better. Do I care if I die, sure, but it sin't going to stop me from being agressive and fighting. Give me a place where I can find this kind of action without doing more flying around looking for a fight, then fighting and you will hear nothing but joy from me.
Do I care how other people enjoy the game, as long as they are not stopping me from fighting then I could care less how everyone else flies and what I think should not affect them. If they are getting what they want out of the game then more power to them.
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Mars, this thread was about what we could possibly do to improve gameplay without changing the system, maps, etc.
There are two other active threads where discussion is about field spacings, fighter towns and other changes which could also improve gameplay, if not for all, at least for some.
No need to call everyone who disagrees with you a moron. Let people discuss other possibilities as well, even if they appear futile to you. The more options we try the better for us all.
As for your ideas, nobody said they are wrong. All you have to do is to make a map (or find somebody who can) and submit it to HTC.
And just for the record, we had fast paced fighter action in DA. Without support from other vets (with exception of few regulars), we were bound to lose it.
As long as we stick to "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality, gameplay will not improve.
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Originally posted by mars01
You guys that think furballing only last a few seconds between flights must not be very good at it.
Naw, it's just that everybody else is better. That's why my "furballing" only last a few seconds.
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Mars, this thread was about what we could possibly do to improve gameplay without changing the system, maps, etc.
There are two other active threads where discussion is about field spacings, fighter towns and other changes which could also improve gameplay, if not for all, at least for some.
No need to call everyone who disagrees with you a moron. Let people discuss other possibilities as well, even if they appear futile to you. The more options we try the better for us all.
As for your ideas, nobody said they are wrong. All you have to do is to make a map (or find somebody who can) and submit it to HTC.
And just for the record, we had fast paced fighter action in DA. Without support from other vets (with exception of few regulars), we were bound to lose it.
As long as we stick to "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality, gameplay will not improve.
Bighorn when someone takes my words and twists then into something I didn't say and then makes the comments they do, they will be called morons.
As for this thread I have not strayed from topic nor have I called people with different opinions morons.
Again, You need to read what I write and stop reading what you want into it. No where have I said I am right or anyone is wrong. I have expressed my expierinaces and opinions that is all.
The DA is no place for furballing. There are too many threads you can search on to read why.
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Originally posted by mars01
they will be called morons.
Originally posted by mars01
example of the moronic reading
Originally posted by mars01
not everyone on these boards is a moron!
Originally posted by mars01
nor have I called people with different opinions morons
Originally posted by mars01
takes my words and twists then into something I didn't say
Above is the only 'twisting' I've seen in this thread. In fact, you twisted around so much you started disagreeing with your own disagreements.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Above is the only 'twisting' I've seen in this thread. In fact, you twisted around so much you started disagreeing with your own disagreements.
id have to agree, that is the only twisting in this thread, but it wasnt done by who you think.
as for mars and lazs, they've been a broken record in these types threads for at least as long as i've been here...
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Tired of the gameplay in the MA? That is only half of the Aces High experience. You people need to try some of the activities in the Special Events Arena (also the AVA Arena which has been mentioned). Check out this link for the hottest new craze, the Racing League.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=278
If you think the Main Arena can be tense, try racing 30 other guys around three radar towers, through a bridge and bomber hanger. I like to call it White Knuckle Racing. You won't know what your missing until you try it once. Stop by for a visit on Tuesday nights 10:00pm Eastern time. :)
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
Above is the only 'twisting' I've seen in this thread. In fact, you twisted around so much you started disagreeing with your own disagreements.
:D :rofl :D
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Personaly I think Mars01 is just trying to start trouble.
I believe him to be a vile evil, evil person with a hidden agenda of destroying the fun in this game.
I will continue to believe this until which time I get to set my buttocks down in that Pitts. At that time he will become a really OK kind of guy.
:D
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LoL you guys crack me up. :D :aok Your all, awll-rite. Get your but up here jack, gotta ticket with your name on it :)
Nice job bighorn, you proved my point. You couldn't grab anything worthwhile so you grabbed the only thing you can. As I already told you, when sloe and yourself take my comments and twist them up, then make moronic comments on your twists I will call you morons all day long. :aok;)
Now stop derailing the thread.
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[last hijacking post]
Hey! I'm the one who helped you, and HE gets the ticket for a Pitts ride? :furious
You're a vile man!
[/last hijacking post]
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Originally posted by Raptor01
Want to have fun? Put down the late war birds and fly a P40B or something like that. Game is much more fun to me when otd in an old bird killing spit16s and la7s. I wish more people would try some planes from before 1943, loads of fun.
What, and give up playing the game the easy way,& Having to work & develop skill for a living?
Neva. They would then have to prove their greatness. OR give up their delusions of greatness.
BTW you forgot. Seeing how many people you can get to fly into the ground,the side of a mountain or into a tree.
I have almost as much fun doing that as actually shooting people down.
You should get perks for it LMAO
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sorry for pointing out that there is nothing that can be done by the furballers to improve the game for furballers short of petioning for new/modified maps or whole gameplay issues to be changed.
that is the sad truth of it tho. And... it has a decent chance... fester made the best map in the game because of "whining" the fighter town was a result of "whining"...
the idea of all the furballers getting together in the MA and doing something that is boring and organized is laughable in itself... and defeats the whole purpose of being a furballer.
not gonna happen by any true furballer. And why should it? organization? you are kidding right? Might as well stay at work and make some overtime.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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LOL Gian,
Standing offer to all you guys, if you can make it to CT the first one is on me. :aok :D
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Durn! I'll be the last one, I'm too far away! :D
Back on topic, I saw a thread a while ago where Flayed1, IIRC, showed a terrain he was working on and modifying according to Mars' suggestions.... what happened to it? It has a TT and a FT, it would be a nice breath of fresh air... and the n-th demonstration that "whining" is worth something :D
Lazs, why do you think that chasing the horde is not a good idea? I think it could bring some good fight and fun... but, after all, I've been a subscriber for sixth month only, I may be not considering something you do know well.
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gian... The horde by it's very nature is not filled with "fun" people. They are not even all that fun to kill... they are a horde because they have a "mission" and that mission is to shut down the enemies ability to fight.
It is not difficult to take out the fighter hangers and radar... the horde can lose 20 planes and still do that and they consider it a success. meanwhile... another small group or even antother horde can take out the fighter hangers and radar at a field you are not at that is close.
To fight the horde you may have to get organized and fly 2 sectors.. this is boring enough in itself but... even if you do... you won't stop em from suicideing into the fighter hangers... If you try they will be even more thrilled when they do get the hangers... you will in essence... be encouraging their behavior
The gameplay and "strat" is all slanted in their favor in any.... they have all the advantages when it comes to ruining the fight.
but it boils down to... they aren't fun to let live and they aren't fun to fight... the only way to deal with em is to ignore em and go where they aren't. To do that.. we need a lot more useful fields.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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I got the point, sir, thank you. :)
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After this weekend I would have to confirm that Laz.
There was a great furball type fight going on between Bish and Knights. I was a knight. If I flew out to the middle of the fight and past the guys hitting my base, I would enter decent fights a good action. If I chased the guys comming into my base then the fights were lame and action was sparse. All the guys hitting the base would do, were basically Half Cubans until they slowed enough that someone could cut the angle and kill them.