Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StSanta on February 08, 2001, 12:06:00 PM
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A poor chap from Thaliand lives on half what the average American/European spends on food for his or her dog.
Even with different currencies etc it makes ya wonder.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
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It's all fine and dandy though, because we can have dirt cheap labour as a result.
And the shareholders in Nike are thrilled.
So who's complaining?
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Are you guys saying you could live off that? Or are you just glad they based it on American consumption and not Danish or British?
How would it compare to what the average brit, dane or American spends on beer, cigarettes, coffee or tea?
AKDejaVu
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By the way, I wonder how that poor chap from Thailand's average income compares to what we pay to play AH each month.
AKDejaVu
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Yes,
and the only reason that poor chap in thailand cares about how much euro/ameris spend on their dogs food is because in Thailand dogs ARE food!
LMAO
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Dowding has point.
That poor chap from Thailand was probably much happier before Nike came to town.
He probably only took the job because he likes self-inflicted misery and pain.
Certainly his life before Nike was so good that he didn't need to take the job?
Or maybe Nike is secretly "press ganging" workers into athletic shoe slavery? That is, there is no free choice involved in taking or not taking the job?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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AKDejaVu, I think my comments are meant to be taken with a pinch of irony.
Toad, I assume you have kids? Would you like them to work 16 hours from the age of ten in some sweaty factory, so over-weight Westerners can pretend they are 'sporty'?
No? Then why should economics dictate this for another man's children?
(I'm getting a sense of dejavu with this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
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Dowding,
There must be something the Thai felt would accrue to his advantage or he wouldn't take the job would he?
Be nice if we could wave a wand and all countries became instant "first world countries" wouldn't it?
It's never happened before. The course of economic development for poor nations throughout history hasn't really changed much. There is almost ALWAYS an exploitative phase.
Have you found a way to bypass that unhappy circumstance that would actually work in a "real world" scenario? If you have, you're probably inline for a Nobel in Economics.
Toad, I assume you have kids? Would you like them to work 16 hours from the age of ten in some sweaty factory, so over-weight Westerners can pretend they are 'sporty'?
Yes, I have two boys. One in college on a sports scholarship, the other in High School.
The one playing American football is MOST CERTAINLY paying for his education...in many, many ways.
Had the choice been between either starving to death or working for Nike and barely surviving, I suppose my entire family would be making athletic shoes.
Would I like it? No. Would I rather starve? No.
You are right; this is plowed ground.
When you discover the way to leap from a pre-industrial subsistence society to a modern first world economy in just three short weeks we'll discuss it again. I'll buy the Champagne at your after-Nobel party too!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Funny (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My official monthly salary that I get working as an IT support engineer in Academy of Science is 860 rubles. $1=28 rubles here.
I get 5600 rubles monthly for supporting different scientific organisations in Moscow.
I earn more assemblying PCs, repairing them and making LANs all over Moscow. Our clients are various Moscow commertial firms and our friends, no advertising but a word of mouth.
Average pension for age here in Moscow is less then 1500 rubles.
My Father gets about 1500 rubles as a professor (!!!) in his college. A a military pensioneer (retired colonel, 44 years in the Army, 1943-1987) he gets about 3000 rubles.
My Grandma, she died in October (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) got 1100 rubles as an officer widiow.
For 6 months I worked with a 20 years old guy who earned 4000 roubles monthly doing cabling works in apartment houses.
I am 27 and have incomplete college, specialised in "conventional warhead design". IMO I am doing pretty well, I spend no more then 100 roubles daily on food and (mostly) on beer and tobacco. I don't have a car, but I own a small 3-roomed apartment 5 minutes from a subway station.
Food prices in Moscow: 5.5 roubles for bread (black or white), 90 rubles for a kilogramm of meat, 7 rubles for a kilogramm of potatos, 15 rubles for a liter of milk, 55 rubles for a 0.5 liter of fine vodka, 13 rubles for a good beer. I pay about 350 rubles monthly for an apartment (heating, garbage collection, phone, water, electricity, gas).
Hardcover book price is around 50 rubles.
95 octane petrol is around 9 rubles per liter.
Anyone else living not in US wants to share (or should I say "declare"?) his living conditions?
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Toad,
If international political activism was driven by rationalal rather then wishfull thinking, your comments would be appropriate in this topic.
As it is, stop confusing people with your heartless economics! If Nike did not add jobs to Thailand economy, many more children would die of hunger and deseases, but we would not know about it so it would as good as not happen!
miko
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Forgot 1000 rubles monthly that I spend for a cellular phone. $0.30 per minute here for a GSM sevice. -ivan-, my companion, pays $160 monthly for an NMT unlim including long distance calls.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Borado, sure, but do you want to know what my living conditions were when I was young or today?
When I was 18:
Started my adult working life with $100 and a suitcase full of clothes 1700 miles from the nearest relative, renting a room for $50 a month, sleeping on the floor near a hot plate for warmth, a pile of broken bricks used for tossing at the drunken and drugged bums trying to climb in the window from the nearby alley while flicking cockroaches out from the tattered blanket, eating snickers candy bars for lunch and dinner because I could not afford real food until I found a job...and forget about tobacco or booze, those were luxeries out of reach for me..
I eventually landed a job that paid well, but was laid off and ended up making small change as a bartendar that payed for my own education by working not only late evenings but another bartending job just so I could afford to attend morning classes with little or no sleep.
You see, I lived the American dream, I started out in the gutter, with nothing, feeling sorry for myself and basically hating anyone with any substantial amount of money since "I" didn't have any...you know what? I live in a great country, where opportunity is there for those that work hard and seek it. I stopped feeling sorry for myself and pursued happiness...worked for it. I wish this for anyone, however, I can understand that the country you live in *could* prevent you from doing so...you still control your own destiny...no one can take your destiny away from you except yourself.
Today? Living a comfortable life that came at a price...hard work. I have a philosophy, actually a couple...one is--whenever a 'door' opens, step inside and see whats in the door..never be closed-minded about any oppportunity..even if its flipping hamburgers. The second philosophy is be willing to learn or re-train in as many things in life as you can...in my life, I've discovered knowing alittle about everything is more valuable than knowing alot about ONE thing. Flexibility.
And my grandfather wrote a poem about being proud of yourself...I won't post the whole poem, but the bottom line is this:
If you end up being a shrub in the middle of the field, be the BEST little shrub on the whole field!
In other words, it doesn't matter how much you earn, or what you do, or what you own...what matters is YOU..you're self-esteem, your happiness.
I was happy making $2.00 an hour, and lived accordingly (which, incidently, I qualified for 'Food Stamps' but never accepted them)...and I am just as happy earning what I earn today.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-08-2001).]
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Profits vs. Human Dignity
I think this will be a major issue of the 21st century.
Interesting article on Nike: http://www.summersault.com/~agj/clr/alerts/sarah_cox.html (http://www.summersault.com/~agj/clr/alerts/sarah_cox.html)
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. …corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
- Abraham Lincoln
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Abe wrote that?
...and the Republic is still here?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Miko2d, Toad. Consider child prostitution in Thailand.
Sure they make money. Sure they can support their parents and earn more than working in a field. Clearly, that's all that matters.
Is 'economics' a valid justification here? And if not, why not?
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Not so fast, Dowding.
Don't "liberal dodge" again.
1. Do you know of ANY way that would work in the "real world" to bring a 3rd world country to 1st world status in a short period of time WITHOUT exploitation?
2. Can you show that the Thai Nike workers are far worse off now than they were before Nike arrived? In other words, do NO benefits accrue by working for Nike? They were living better before Nike came?
3. Lastly, take a moment and discourse on what would happen to the Thai economy if relatively unskilled athletic shoe assembly workers were suddenly give raises to the point that their wages equaled a US Nike assembly worker (if there even is one). With "unskilled" labor making US rates, what would Thai doctors and other professionals do? What would be the overall effect on the economy?
Answer that and we'll get into child prostitution...which is an entirely different area of the illegal economy that carries a negative emotional charge that is not necessarily germane to the Economics arguement at hand..which is what I suspect you intended.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Can't solve the world's problems. If it bothers you, don't buy the shoes or whatever the cheap labor is producing. Truth is American labor has out priced itself in the world market. You can thank labor unions in part for that. That's why more and more companies are setting up shop overseas. That's why everything says "Made in China" when you flip it over. The downside is the trade deficit. China or wherever doesn't purchase American made goods in equal quantities. Can't compare making shoes to child prostitution, come on Dowding....
Eagler
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Originally posted by Dowding:
Miko2d, Toad. Consider child prostitution in Thailand...
You consider it, Dowding. If they would rather prostitute then starve how can any legal way to make money be bad for them?
They starve because they have no money. The thai perverts do not give them money unless sex is involved. Upstanding british citizens like you would not give them money no matter what. Sleasy american corporations are afraid to open a factory there bacause paying them american rates would be unprofitale (and thus against the law protecting the shareholders) and paying Thailand rates would be a bad publicity. So just let them starve quietly.
How come anyone who is upset that his/her sneakers are too cheap, would not just donate the difference to the poor Thai kids?
miko
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Miko2d, Toad. Consider child prostitution in Thailand.
Sure they make money. Sure they can support their parents and earn more than working in a field. Clearly, that's all that matters.
Is 'economics' a valid justification here? And if not, why not?
False assumption: Child prostitution only exists because money is available to pay for them. Of course, they wouldn't be doing it for food if money was unavailable.
Another great leap: Child prostitution is the result of people having jobs thus being able to afford the prostitutes. Get rid of the jobs and there will be no more child prostitution.
I can't believe this was even brought up as an issue in regards to Nike "sweat shops". You have to do MUCH better than that Dowding. Right now you're just looking desperate.
AKDejaVu
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Wow.. just occured to me you may have been comparing child prostitution to working for Nike in Thailand.
Wow.
AKDejaVu
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yea ones screwing and the others getting screwed .not much differnence the prostitute probly works half the hours for double the wages lol.
defend you imperialism the poor man will pay your bills like always.
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Sorry for the short answer, but I have to be up at 6.00 am tommorrow to get to work.
Firstly, consider the Nike 'sweat shops'.
Toad effectively summarises Nike's stance on child labour and the improvement of the host nation's economy. For instance, Nike assert that they have increased per capita income ten-fold since 1970 in Indonesia. There is no evidence to support this, and considering that Nike only began investing in Indonesia in 1988, their back-slapping is a little hard to swallow. Coupled with this, is the fact that the strengthening of the Indonesian economy began well before 1988.
The point concerning the move from third world to first world status is an interesting one. The jobs created in the factories are not guaranteed and are especially vulnerable considering the increase in wages which is an integral part of any economic growth. Once this takes place, Nike will move on to a less developed country; it is already investigating other locations outside Indonesia.
Finally, several Western companies are doing far more for their host communities than Nike. For instance Levi Strauss pay for the education of their workers up to the age of 14, before taking them on as employees. Surely that is a better way to proceed.
From an Anustralian NGO:
The low wages which force young women to work very long hours on inadequate diets while living in inadequate and unsanitary housing, takes its toll on health - not only of the young women themselves but of their children, as the majority are of child bearing age. For all their benefits, these jobs are also creating a legacy of ill health which will last long after the companies have moved on. And ill health is an economic as well as a social cost to a country like Indonesia.
There is certainly a need for investment and job creation to continue, and to grow. But the jobs created must be non-exploitative, and contribute more to the host country and particularly to its workers, in the form of decent wages and safe and healthy working conditions.
Child prostitution is an extreme example, I grant you, but that was my intention. I think you'll find that it is Western paedophiles that exploit these children, and not so much 'Thai perverts'. With this in mind, the point I was trying to make was that the child sex trade is simply an extension of the economic arguments which are used to justify child labour in any form.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-08-2001).]
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With this in mind, the point I was trying to make was that the child sex trade is simply an extension of the economic arguments which are used to justify child labour in any form.
This works both ways Dowding. When you do this, you trivialize the child sex trade. To put them on the same scale is wrong.
They
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Dowding,
You didn't directly address a single one of those three questions.
Off to work with you. I look forward to your reply tomorrow. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Towd, I'm sure you know who said this:
"Mankind may pass directly from capitalism into Socialism, i.e. into social ownership of the means of production...Socialism is bound sooner or later to ripen into Communism, whose banner bears the motto: 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.' "
Do you recall how that idea turned out? Because it's REAL similar to your apparent philosophy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Keep in mind that when you see annual income statistics for poor countries, that average is lowered by people who might make very little actual money, but grow and raise all of the food that they eat (not always enough, but usally). In a wealthy, industrial nation most people, the vast majority as a matter of fact, do not grow their own food, they make money and then use the money to buy food. When you then compare the average anual income of a poor nation to the average anual income of a nation like the USA, Japan or the UK you are comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. Their economies are entirely different.
This is not to say that the people in Thailand are well off, its just that those types of statistics are misleading as to how bad it really is, i.e. the statistics make it look worse. When we people from rich nations read those statistics, we tend to think "Gee, I could hardly by any food with that", and that is not the truth of the matter here.
Think when you read statistics.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 02-08-2001).]
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I think all of them lazy tulips in Asia and Africa should get off their tulips and get a JOB !!! Then they wouldn't have those problems !!! I'm sure somehow it is their fault that they allow themselves to be used and abused for such a luxury as food.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Sorry, no jobs for anyone FD.
Dowding banned all exploitative companies from building factories in underdeveloped countries. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Since all companies are somewhat exploitative of labor (they make a profit on the labor and do not return that profit to said employee) there were no companies qualified to build factories.
Maybe on our next Earth society try we can get it right.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
Abe wrote that?
...and the Republic is still here?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Toad, I posted that quote just for you. I knew you'd appreciate it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
As far as our form of government still being a republic, I'm not sure. If memory serves me I seem to remember the choice of our current head of the executive branch of government being decided by five non-elected individuals in the judicial branch.
Perhaps we're more of a constitutional monarchy now.
Hail George II.
Tough call either way. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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ah, blur, you're just as predictable...you can't help yourself, like towd.
Always torturing yourselves at the injustice in life, eh?
There is another way.
Relax and smell the flowers. It truly is a wonderful life.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-08-2001).]
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You didn't directly address a single one of those three questions.
Not a 'liberal dodge', simply a 'politician's sidestep'. It's a tune that every political party can dance to. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, I'm at work now and it sucks - at least it's friday! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm building my new computer tonight - if I get it working, I'll reply to your post properly.
Have a nice day now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Dowding has point.
Dowding has no clue.
I've read all the newspaper crap about Man United footballs being made by a blind little girl in India earning 50p a day or something and the club then flogging them for 20 quid etc - make your heart bleed those stories, don't they?
Even with different currencies etc it makes ya wonderIt's not the currencies StSanta, it's the cost of living...
Fact is that they take this 50p as income conveniently "forgetting to mention" that the expenses of the whole girl's family would be about 20p for the same day...
A know a guy whose uncle is a qualified railroad engineer in India. The guy was saying that he could be sending £50/month to his uncle and the uncle wouldn't have to work.
I'm sending my folks $100/month - 2.5 times of their combined monthly income...
God help us all with heartbleeding liberals who have nothing else to do...