Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Kev367th on June 03, 2006, 06:22:40 AM
-
809 Sqn FAA
HMS Unicorn
September 1943
Flown by Major Al Wright Royal Marines
Took part in "Operation Avalanche", the invasion of Salerno.
-
"She smiles at me, as if she knows something I do not..."
-
For some reason when looking at it, it looks like a la7 with a shark mouth. :confused:
-
Maybe because the lower nose contour on this AH model is a bit off?
-
Finally tracked down David Brown's 1973 book on the Seafire. What do I spy among the photos?
Here it is. I'd never seen a photo of the shark mouthed Spit before, just a profile.
-
Originally posted by Hoarach
For some reason when looking at it, it looks like a la7 with a shark mouth. :confused:
...and the upper contours :P
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Finally tracked down David Brown's 1973 book on the Seafire. What do I spy among the photos?
Here it is. I'd never seen a photo of the shark mouthed Spit before, just a profile.
SWEEEEEET
Correct me if I'm wrong, it looks clipped also :) .
Looks like a hell of a lot of the L III's were clipped.
Assuming it's an L III, 6 exhuast stacks, never seen a IIc with 6.
-
It's ID'd as a IIc and since it doesn't have the tropical filter of the later III, I do believe it's a IIc. There are a number of photos ID'd in the book as IIcs with 4 bladers and 6 exhaust stacks.
I suppose like the Vb they added that as the war progressed
Photos of clipped IIcs as well btw with the 4 blade prop.
I'm more and more agreeing with you that the Seafire in AH should be the LIII if for no other reason that it just looks that much better with the 4 blade prob, tropical filter and multiple exhaust stacks :)
The more I look at it, the more I think it's about the best looking of the Spit family out there. The shorter nose combined with the above gives it a really nice appearance.
And in AH terms the nose of the VIII/IX/XVI is much more accurate. Wonder if they could splice it on to the Seafire and redo it as the LIII? :)
-
Wonder if it's one of the early batch IIc's (Merlin 46) refitted with the Merlin 32?
We should have the L III only because it's the most representative Seafire model (over 3x more L III than IIc made).
What we have now is the (apart from the converted Vb's) rarest Seafire ever made with the rarest engine it was ever fitted with.
People have said the IIc is a good sub for the III, then I point out that if anything the F IX is a lot closer performance wise at the L III's best alt.
The IIc can't get close to the L III's low alt performance until 20k or so.
Just because its a Seafire doesn't make a good sub for the L III.
Look at it this way by wars end the BPF had 12 Seafire sqns, 8 were L III's, 4 were IIc's (with Merlin 32).
The refitting of the original batch (110 or so) of Merlin 46 IIc's started 1943 (they realised the Merlin 46 was crap fairly quickly). All Seafire IIc's after the initial batch were fitted standard with the Merlin 32.
So all IIc's eventually had the Merlin 32.
I'd even settle for a IIc with the Merlin 32.
[edit] Yup the Merlin 32 Seafires had 4 bladed prop, cropped impeller, and 6 exhaust stacks - L IIc. (Nov 42). Conversely the IIc with Merlin 46 only had a production run lasting less 5 months (June 42).
-
The image of the sharmouth IIc is dated 1944 and it names the pilot as you did but lists it as being on HMS Stalker. Major Al Wright as pilot though so it must be the same bird. That would probably point to it being one of the re-engined birds.
Nice view of a clipped IIc landing on HMS Hunter
-
And a good photo of another clipped IIc on HMS Battler during Operation Avalance.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
The image of the sharmouth IIc is dated 1944 and it names the pilot as you did but lists it as being on HMS Stalker. Major Al Wright as pilot though so it must be the same bird. That would probably point to it being one of the re-engined birds.
Nice view of a clipped IIc landing on HMS Hunter
Can't be 1944.
The 'sharkmouth' Seafire supposedly broke it's back landing back on the CV during "Avalanche" in 1943.
So much for the RAE report saying "clipping would hamper carrier ops". LOL
-
What serial do you have for the sharkmouthed Seafire? MB216? Spit the hist doesn't list that with any kind of carrier ops but at AST in April of 43.
-
Seen two serial numbers associated with it -
MB216
MB269
Be interesting to work out when the re-engining of the Merlin 46 Seafires started.
Got
Delivery begins to units June 42 of Merlin 46 Seafires.
Delivery begins to units Nov 42 of Merlin 32 Seafires.
Service entry - Nov 43 of Seafire III's. Same as IIc - originally F III, very quickly changed to Merlin 55M L III's, the F III's (approx 10) converted to FR III's.
So they got the 110 Merlin 46 Seafires over a period of about 5 months, then they switched to Merlin 32.
Remember reading something about mid 43 they started the re-engine of the first batch.
-
That's some great wheathering. :aok
-
Weren't most seafires clipped wings, to save room on the hangar deck?
-
Good question Krusty -
As the L III's wings folded in a "Z" shape it wouldn't apply to them, although a lot of them seem to be clipped.
Wings folded - Just inboard of the 20mm cannon, and at the wingtip attachment point, i.e. where they would typically change the tip types on Spits.
Very small amount of early III's (hybrid IIc) had fixed wings.
IIc's - Clipping evidence on the Merlin 32 ones, none yet for Merlin 46 ones.
So I guess I don't know, maybe as was common in the RAF the FAA units did it on a case by case basis.
Best guess judging by pics -
F IIc's with Merlin 46 (3 blade prop, 3 exhaust stacks), yet to see one clipped.
L IIc's with Merlin 32, (4 blade prop, 6 exhaust stacks) plenty of pics of clipped ones.
L III's, plenty of pics of clipped ones.
Common link - L IIc and L III had the low alt version of the Merlin. Although as with Spits it's noway a hard and fast rule.
Seafire L III with wing folded -
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alemarinel/Spitfire/Seafire3a.jpg)
-
According to the Brown book, the Seafires, in particular the LIIc and LIII were meant for the low alt work of intercepting raiders etc. The Hellcats and Corsairs were better suited to the medium to high alt stuff so the Seafires were optimised for the low alt role.
It also says that clipping of wings was left to the squadron commanders and could be easily accomplished at the squadron level. Again, as with any mention of the clipped wing, it had a lot to do with roll rate and the 190.
And regarding the clipped wings. They did not have problems with full span wings on the British carriers because the lifts from the hanger deck were large enough to accomidate them. So the folding with wasn't reall all that neccessary. I suppose for tall those escort carriers later on it helped with storage.
-
Also explains -
Initial 110 or so IIc fitted with the med/high alt Merlin 46
Rest (260+) with the low/med alt Merlin 32
Mid 1943 onwards the initial 110 refitted with Merlin 32
Initial 10 or so III's produced as F III with med/high alt Merlin.
Rest (1000+) with the low/med alt Merlin 55M.
Initial 10 converted to FR III's.
So the IIc we have should have the Merlin 32 at the very least.
If we were ever to get the L III is should have the Merlin 55M.