Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: -lynx- on May 11, 2001, 10:51:00 AM
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Of course you did know Stalin already tryed to do that didn't you?
Sorry but it seems like your knowledge about history has some holes in it.
Well I guess you didn't know Stalin didn't - the war in Europe was imminent, there was a need to provide a buffer zone. Soviet Army went in and provided the required buffer. End of story. Yes, they underestimated the Finnish resistance, yes they got their nose bleeding but the buffer was provided regardless and that's where they'd stopped. It does look like national pride clouds your outlook on what had actually happened.
26.11.1939 15:00 village of Mainila in Russia was shelled by few artillery granades and grenade launchers. That gave Russia a reason to attack to Finland 30.11.1939. So it took four days from Red Army to attack agains us.
Funniest thing was that nearest Finnish artilleries were 50km from border.
I wonder what kind of cannons those were with 50km trajectory?
(I don't know who shelled the village) But using simple common sense - why wait 4 days? Had they shelled the village themselves surely anyone in his right mind would just attack? Why give 4 days to prepare defenses? I guess Finnish historians have answer to that too...
Please share your secret knowledge of the chances. Finland remained, Poland was occupied.
you're quoting out of context blau - I said had they wanted to occupy Finland, they would. Hitler's intention was to occupy Poland. Stalin's - to create a wider Soviet controlled territory between the border and Leningrad which he did.
Russia was first country who recognized Finland as a free country 4.1.1918 (by Lenin) and at same days countries like France (Didn't wait what Lenin decide) and Sweden (Did wait what was Lenin's opinion). GB and USA wanted to see what happens in Russia before they recognized Finland as a free country.
So Lenin was a guy who gaved us our freedom thought in those times he did have his hands full of work already. Guess he was happy when he get rid of us
Blimey - you were not an "occupied country" I'm afraid... It may tickle whatever feelings it tickles but both Poland and Finland were mere provinces in the Russian Empire conquered lond time ago and absorbed under the Russian Crown. Helsinki was a base for Russian Baltic Fleet fer chrissakes! Bolsheviks set a base in Finland and used it as a hideout before the Revolution - I suspect some kind of deal might have been struck in exchange for "help" from the Finnish side. But hey - we'll never know...
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OK this is one thread that needs to have died out awhile ago.
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Lynx I see you've already readed Russian version of History.
Maybe you should buy some book from western writers, They might be closer the thruth.
Did you look that map where was marked those battles where 44. and 163.Division fought and died?
Was it somewhere near Leningrad?
Look out those links I posted in other thread; Check them out, read maps etc and I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions.
If your opinion is they are BS thats fine but if your conclusion is they are more accurate than what you did learn in school then we can continue this.
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Posted by -Lynx-
Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border.
Ookay, Here we go (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Arctic Storm:
The Battle of Suomussalmi: December, 1941
By
David James Ritchie
A key element in the Soviet plan for the conquest of Finland was a rapid drive to the Gulf of Bothnia at Kemi and Oulu, slicing that small nation in half at its narrow waist and cutting overland communications with pro-Finnish Sweden.
Vasili Chuikov's 9th Army was to accomplish this task by means of two independent thrusts. While one rifle corps marched toward Kemi through Salla and Rovaniemi in the north, Chuikov's main force would mount a multi-column advance from the Juntusranta-Raate area and from Repola that would roll through the Finnish towns of Suomussalmi and Kuhmo, respectively, before converging on Oulu. In the event, the subsidiary Salla operation and the flanking drive from Repola got nowhere, and both sides' attention soon focused on the main
thrust through Suomussalmi.
Occupying the shortest axis of advance toward Oulu, Suomussalmi had most of
Chuikov's attention from day one. It also got his best unit, the powerful 45th Rifle Corps, with 48,000 men, 335 guns and 150 tanks and armored cars in two divisions: Divcom Zelentsov's 16 3rd Rifle Division and Divcom Vinogradov's 44th Motorized Rifle Division. On 30 November 1939, the Mongolians of 163rd Rifle Division advanced on Suomussalmi in two columns. The northern column (81st and 662nd Rifle Regiments, with supporting tanks and cavalry) moved on the town from Juntusranta, while the southern column, consisting of 759th Rifle Regiment and the division's recon battalion, marched up the road from Raate.
Strung out on the road east of Raate, the Ukrainian 44th Motorized Rifle Division awaited word to advance in support of the thrust toward Suomussalmi.
Chuikov caught the Finns napping. Since they never expected anyone to attack through the almost trackless wilderness of central Finland in winter, only two battalions of covering troops were deployed to defend a 650-kilometer stretch of frontier. In the Suomussalmi area, two platoons of regulars and the reservists of 15th Independent Infantry Battalion were all the Finns had in the way of two reinforced enemy divisions.
Hindered as much by the terrain as by the enemy, Chuikov's methodical advance
proceeded more or less to plan during the first week.
Then, on 6 December, 662nd Rifle Regiment, which had turned north at Polovaara to develop a flanking movement, found its line of advance blocked at the Piispajarvi Straits south of Peranka by the Finnish 16th Independent Infantry Battalion. While the regiment spent two days assaulting the Finnish blocking position, 81st Rifle Regiment kept moving south toward Suomussalmi, where it linked up with 759th Rifle Regiment on the7th.
By that time, the retreating Finnish Civic Guard had already evacuated the town,
leaving behind only smoking ashes. On 8 December, 16th Independent Infantry Battalion, supported by a gaggle of small units, counterattacked 662nd Rifle Regiment and began driving it back toward Haapavaara.
On 7 December, as 45th Rifle Corps was taking over the embers of Suomussalmi, Finnish CIC Marshal Mannerheim ordered Lieutenant Colonel Johan Makiniemi's 27th Infantry Regiment to deploy to the area, where it was to form the core of a new independent brigade under the command of Colonel Hjalmar Siilasvuo.
Most of Makiniemi's men were lumberjacks, perfectly at home in the deep forest, especially now that there was half a meter of snow on the battlefield. Their experience in the snow-clad woods was an important element in what followed.
Makiniemi's men started arriving on the 9th and immediately engaged Zelentsov's
forward elements. The rest of Siilasvuo's new brigade reached the battlefield on the 10th, giving the Finnish commander 4,700 men with which to oppose 16,000 Soviet troops in the area. Outnumbered by almost four to one and with the enemy threatening to capture the Haukipera Ferry and encircle his fledgling brigade, Siilasvuo naturally planned a counterattack for the 11th.
On that date, the Finns cut the vital Raate road behind the main body of 163rd Rifle Division and brought the Zelentsov's only other supply route, the road from Juntusranta, under harassing fire. On the 13th, Siilasvuo attacked Suomussalmi itself, initiating a bitter five-day struggle for the ruined town. Here the freezing Soviets (still in their summer uniforms) had hastily dug themselves into the blackened cellars of burnt-out buildings
to escape temperatures that were plunging to -40 Fahrenheit. Despite their weakened condition, once out from under the forest canopy where their tanks could support them and they c ould use their superior firepower, Zelentsov's shivering Mongolians proved hardy fighters. Siilasvuo had to halt the attack due to extreme casualties. He tried again on the 20th, but that attack too failed in the face of stubborn resistance. Meanwhile, 40kilometers to the north, ski troops of 16th Independent Infantry Battalion (shortly joined by 6th Bicycle Battalion and Lieutenant Colonel Karl Mandelin's newly formed 65th
Infantry Regiment) cut off and pinned down 662nd Rifle Regiment near Haapavaara.
By this time, it was finally dawning on Chuikov that Zelentsov was in need of rescue. On 23 December, Divcom Vinogradov's 44th Motor ized Rifle Division finally pushed up the Raate road to within seven kilometers of the 163rd's positions at Suomussalmi. In the isthmus between Kuomasjarvi and Kuivasjarvi, its lead 25th Rifle Regiment was halted short of a linkup by elements of
Makiniemi's regiment and some local Civic Guardsmen, holding a tenuous blocking position.
As the road-bound 44th's attack ground to a stop, Finnish ski troops closed in behind it and cut off its retreat too!
The next day (Christmas Eve), Soviet bombers and fighters raked Finnish positions, while the ground forces mounted an all-out genera l attack on Siilasvuo's forces. For two days, furious fighting raged throughout the area as Vinogradov assailed the Finnish blocking position at Kuomasjarvi and Zelentsov tried to break out of Suomussalmi and link up with his would-be rescuer. The Soviet attacks f inally spent themselves late in the afternoon on the 25th, and Zelentsov's demoralized troops settled down in their freezing
holes to await events.
They were not long in coming. Even as the Soviet attacks were petering out, Siilasvuo's command (renamed 9th Division on 22 December ) was reinforced by Lieutenant Colonel Frans studmuffinernas's 64th Infantry Regiment, a light battalion and 1st Sissi Battalion. These additions, together with the arrival of two artillery b atteries and a battery of two AT-guns earlier in the month, gave the 9th a total of 11,500 men and made it strong enough for Siilasvuo to prepare an assault that would destroy the two divisions caught in his
trap at Suomussalmi.
At 0730 on the 27th, the Finns counterattacked the 163rd, initiating a savage two-day battle in and around Suomussalmi. On the 28th, they breached the southern perimeter at Hulkonniemi, causing the Soviet troops west of Kiantajarvi to panic and flee across the ice . By 1900, the panic had become general, and two-thirds of Zelentsov's division was in flight, shepherded northward by a few remaining friendly tanks vainly trying to keep the pursuing Finns from turning the rout into a massacre. The Finns, though, were mercilessly efficient, and those who weren't cut down by suomi-toting ski troops were bombed or strafed by Finnish planes. Few made it back across the frontier. By 1200 on the 30th, the mopping-up was over. The last frantic Soviet breakout attempts had been
contained, and t he 163rd Rifle Division no longer existed.
The Finns counted over 5,000 unburied Soviet corpses on the Suomussalmi battlefield. Thousands more lay hidden under the snow, and nobody knows how many troops perished on the ice of Kiantajarvi or in the forest northeast of Suomussalmi. Only 800 surrendered. From Soviet positions, the Finns scavenged 200 trucks, 11 tanks, 68 guns (including about 30 AT guns) and thousands small arms, plus many more thousands of badly needed AP rounds. In honor of his victory, Siilasvuo was awarded his country's Freedom Cross.
On the 28th, while Siilasvuo was still preoccupied with 163rd Rifle Division, Vinogradov had rejected his officers' suggestions that he retreat and had ordered his division to dig in and prepare to defend itself in a series of hedgehogs strung out for 25 kilometers along the Raate road all the way back to the frontier. With an energy born of desperation, the Ukrainians felled innumerable trees to clear fields of fire and hacked shelters out of the frozen earth. As the Ukrainians dug, hundreds of ski troops, lurking under the
branches of the fir trees on either side of the exposed motorized column stepped up their harassment. Soon communications between major hedgehogs were only possible using tanks.
On New Year's Eve, just three days after shattering the 163rd at Suomussalmi, Siilasvuo's troops opened a new operation to cut up and destroy 44th Motorized Rifle Division. After several days of intricate maneuvering that included the construction of Winter roads hidden under the dense forest canopy, the Finns launched their main assault at 0600 on 5 January. Their aim was to chop up Vinogradov's division so that it could be destroyed in detail. Enemy resistance was unexpectedly fierce, perhaps in part due to the presence of a new formation, the fresh 3rd NKVD Regiment, which was just arriving to assist the 44th.
But at 2200 studmuffinernes's engineers destroyed the Purasjoki Bridge, blocking
wheeled traffic east of Likoharju, and the morning of the 6th found Finnish troops holding strong blocking positions behind mines and abatis at several points in the midst of the Soviet column.
On the 6th, there was heavy fighting all along the Raate road as the Finns continued to break up the 44th into bite-sized pieces. The Soviets tried to overrun Finnish roadblocks with armor, but the tanks couldn't maneuver in the forest and were reduced to making suicidal frontal assaults. Throughout the day, as brewed-up tanks piled up in front of Finnish positions and as crews bailed out of vehicles stuck in deep snow, the wreckage only made it more difficult for the Soviets to move at all. Finally, at 2130, Vinogradov be latedly ordered his division to retreat back into Russia. But the 44th was now far too chopped up to respond to orders. Like a dying snake, it continued to thrash about underfoot, but all purpose was gone.
During the long night, as final destruction loomed, individual soldiers and small units, many of which had been without food for five days, shed their equipment and took to their heels. Seeing the enemy dissolving before their eyes, the Finns lost no time in infiltrating the perimeters of the Soviet hedgehogs, and wild firefights lit the night along the Raate road. By morning, every large motti was in Finnish hands. A few small units made ferocious breakout attempts early in the day, but the battle was effectively over wit h the rising of the sun. Mopping-up went on for two days, during which the Finns rounded up hundreds of starving, frozen Ukrainians, many of whom were found sitting quietly in their dugouts awaiting death; their commissars had told them that the Finns didn't take prisoners.
On 9 January, the Finns closed the books on the battle for the Raate road. Like the 163rd,the 44th had been gobbled up. In the process, it had given over to the enemy a grand total of 1,300 prisoners, 1,170 horses, 43 tanks, 46 guns, 29 AT guns, 278 trucks 100 machineguns, 190 automatic weapons, and 6,000 rifles.
The combined battles of Suomussalmi and the Raate road destroyed the Soviet 45th Rifle Corps as a fighting force and cost the Soviets an estimated 22,500 men. The Finns lost 900 killed and 1770 wounded. It was the greatest victory of the Winter War and the one that captured the imagination of the world. Most important, it ended the Soviet threat in central Finland and forced the Kremlin to reassess its war aims.
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
Finnish teacher didn't dig deep into atrocities committed by Finnish troops against Russian civilians, did he?
As it was said in the original thread: Winter war was fought mostly on Finnish soil. What you said here is complete roadkill and I take it as A SERIOUS INSULT. And I'm not gonna even start about what
russians did to finnish civilians...You are lying here big time and if you have any decency (which I seriously doubt) you take this back immediately. Currently you are just a liar with insulting as a purpose to me.
Originally posted by -lynx-:
It may hurt your national pride and everything but you stood no better chance to fight off that offensive than Poland vs German army - in fact Polish odds were better.
Read up before you speak up. In 1939 Germany and Russia had two completely different doctrines their armies used. Germany had fast mechanized units which were well suited for Blitzkrieg style of warfare. Russia on the other hand had a doctrine of old fashioned infantry "mass-attack" tactics. This was mostly because Stalin had executed most of the high-ranking officers in thirties. Extreme cold 1939-1940 winter (-40- -50 degrees Celcius) also favored finns. Many russian infantry men came from Southern Russia (ie. Ukraine region). They didn't know how to ski and weren't used to the extreme conditions of finnish winter. Finns knew the terrain, had higher moral, better tactics and the biggest advantage of all: WILL TO DEFEND THEIR OWN COUNTRY. After Winter War history has repeated itself: ie. Vietnam and Afganistan.
Originally posted by -lynx-:
Had Stalin wanted Finland back under the Soviet rule - they would have marched all the way to Swedish border.
roadkill, see above.
Originally posted by -lynx-:
I'm very much interested in finding out more about Winter War but can we discuss it in the OT?
Here you admit you don't know that much about Winter War. It's better to shut up than speak up if you don't know sh*t what you are talking about.
disgusted,
1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish Army."
J. Stalin 1948
[This message has been edited by Wmaker (edited 05-12-2001).]
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Originally posted by AG Sachsenberg:
OK this is one thread that needs to have died out awhile ago.
Pot, this is kettle... do you you copy, pot?
go 'way.
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Wmaker, unfortunately Lynx is right. In March, 1940, Mannerheim line was penetrated and Soviet tanks already were behind it, coming through the ice of the Finnish Gulf. They were maybe 2 days from Helsinki and there was nothing to stop them. Finnish parliament was wise enough to agree to Stalin's "proposals"...
That conflict was probably the hardest local war for the Soviet army. My Father lived in Rostov on Don that time. He said that all the hospitals even that far to the South were full of wounded and frozen soldiers, and in winter, 1940, he had a long break in their studies, because his school became a temporary hospital...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Here you admit you don't know that much about Winter War. It's better to shut up than speak up if you don't know sh*t what you are talking about.
And how, my obviously so f*****g learnt friend, one is supposed to acquire knowledge if not by raising questions? Unless you don't actually want to know cuz you are so flipping comfortable with your version of history?
I know enough to say the Finnish troops were hated more than Germans about their conduct on occupied territory. Leningrad blockade, remember how your oh so darn glorious and chivalrous troops side by side with their German masters tried to starve 1,000,000 people into submission? Or didn't they teach that "version" of history in your school?
Someone asked for proof of Finnish army atrocities on Russian territory needing documented photo evidence cuz blimey - surely we never did anything "untoward".
Hmmm let's see: "Excuse me Herr Officer, do you mind if I take pictures of those hanged/shot/cut to pieces corpses of innocent civilians so that we can all look at it later? Do you mind signing and dating this as well? Very kind of you - thank you very much..." <sarcasm mode off>
1. Finns slaughtered thousands of Soviet troops with their bare hands - yet peace negotiations were started by the Finnish government - discuss.
2. Finns slaughtered thousands of Soviet troops with their bare hands - yet the Soviet troops somehow retained occupied territory and the buffer zone around Leningrad was created - discuss.
3....
I really want to know how come Finland got away with what you got away with cuz sure as hell it makes no sense to me or anyone who would care to get off his anticommunist horse and start thinking.
Finland was allied with Hitler - there's no way around it. Then you "saw the errors of your way" and this somehow provided freedom from occupation/reparations etc. (Why didn't, say, Hungary or Romania just said - "Oops..." Oh wait - they did but for them it somehow didn't matter, they were overrun and a puppet governments were set upon them.) What you "Western" historians say about that? Or doesn't it (again I might add) fit into the accepted "Bad Ruskies no matter what" cliche?
Read up before you speak up. In 1939 Germany and Russia had two completely different doctrines their armies used...
...and that relates to Finland's chances to withstand an all out attack of "old fashioned" but many times outnumbering and much better armed army exactly how? The valiance and skill of individual Finnish soldier/pilot made a noticeable dent but wouldn't matter in the end. In the war of attrition you simply stood no chance however brave defense was put up. For chrissakes, Russia withstood Hitler's army onslaught! Or didn't you know that? Think before you speak up?
OK this is one thread that needs to have died out awhile ago.
AG - you're so right, it should have - I apologise profusely for bringing up a topic of some godforsaken conflict with no American involvement whatsoever. Oh wait, you did take part in it - that's where Finns' love for Brewster came from - their pilots did so well in it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 05-14-2001).]
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Originally posted by -lynx-:
I know enough to say the Finnish troops were hated more than Germans about their conduct on occupied territory. Leningrad blockade, remember how your oh so darn glorious and chivalrous troops side by side with their German masters tried to starve 1,000,000 people into submission? Or didn't they teach that "version" of history in your school?
LOL Once again your knowledge about history shows some funny holes in it...
A.Hitler asked/demanded that Finnish forces would join to the Leningrad blockade but Mannerheim didn't want to send troops there because his opinion was that Finland should only cover its own borders and if I remember correct he was already then worried what would happen later if Germany would lost the war. As you can see he was very bright leader.
Here's a link you should read too and please check out facts before you continue to send these stupid replies. http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warfin1.html (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warfin1.html)
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Once again Stage <S> that is very good reading. I always enjoy reading about the successes of the Finns. They have a special place in my heart. The underdog taking it to the big bully persay. War is hell toejam happens. <S>
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On 22nd June 1941, Germany launched its massive attack against the Soviet Union. Finland joined the war on 25th June. This time the Finnish army was much better prepared and equipped. The army consisted of almost half a million men which was more than the Soviet army had on the Finnish front. With its determination and brute force the Finnish army quickly reached its old border line and continued the offensive deep into Russian territory. On December 1941, the Finnish army stopped its advance although Hitler insisted that Finland should attack against Leningrad with the Germans.
The war had become stabilized, and a part of the Finnish army was demobilized. Men were waiting in their bunkers just doing some daily routines. Everything changed after the German defeat in Stalingrad. The total German victory did not seem anymore reasonable and Finland started to find a way out of the war but it turned out to be impossible in that situation because of the German pressure.
http://www.ruthvilmi.net/hut/Project/Culture/History/wars.html (http://www.ruthvilmi.net/hut/Project/Culture/History/wars.html)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-14-2001).]
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Couple more links:
http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/finnliv.htm (http://members.spree.com/ojoronen/finnliv.htm) http://www.mannerheim.fi/06_vsota/e_pietar.htm (http://www.mannerheim.fi/06_vsota/e_pietar.htm)
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Staga, AFAIR in December, 1941, Leningrad was already encircled and the Siege began... I think that Mannerheim, a former Russian general of Engineering corps, with his Russian General Staff Academy education, was wise enough not to throw his soldiers into the blood bath at Pulkovo and around Leningrad...
I see that you didn't provide any counter-arguments to Lynx's statement: if only Stalin wanted it - he could easily make Finland the 16th Soviet republic. Oh, sorry, the part of the 16th republic. Karelia had souverign status in USSR that time.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Minus the personal shots, very interesting reading.
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Rip, it's a sad discussion... I still wonder why Stalin decided not to occupy Finland. I am happy that he didn't. Being born in Leningrad I have spent summers in late-70s on Karelian istmuth, where my Father's military engineering college had "summer quarters". It's a beautiful place, and I still miss it... But now Finland is a great example of what could Russian Empire become now if bolsheviks didn't take power in 1917... I beg my pardon to our Finnish friends, but before the Revolution Finland was the backward and undeveloped part of the Empire... History is a very sad thing...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Quote from link above:
Some historians have written incorrectly that Stalin only wanted to move the Finnish border slightly away for the protection of Leningrad, and that Finland was being unnecessarily difficult with the "legitimate defense requirements" of the Soviet Union. This claim has been disproven. If there was ever any doubt that Stalin wanted all of Finland, rather than just a tiny part to protect Leningrad, let the following statement by Khrushchev stand as testimony. This was just after the infamous pact with Hitler. "He (Stalin) said then and there that the document we signed would give us Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, and Finland." (pg. 46, Khrushchev Remembers, Jerrold L. Schecter, with Vyacheslav V. Luchkov)
IMHO its naive to think that occupieing Finland wasn't in Stalin's plans.
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One reason why Finnish government didn't trust Soviet-Union and for me it looks like this is daily issue even now (Tchetshenia).
http://www.pp.clinet.fi/~pkr01/history/bombard1939.htm (http://www.pp.clinet.fi/~pkr01/history/bombard1939.htm)
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I found very interesting site, Its a list of Finnish and Carelian people who were executed between 1937 - 1938 in Sandormoh in Carelia.
Over 7000 people were killed by Russian government but this list contains only 766 carelian and 930 Finnish person names.
http://www.onego.ru/win/pages/spiski/ (http://www.onego.ru/win/pages/spiski/)
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I'm with Staga on this one. Finland successfully fought for its existance. They hurt Russia enough so that Stalin offered terms rather than set himself up for more hurt, not because he didn't want all of Finland. Finland accepted the terms because they didn't want to have their nation occupied and be fighting a resistance war.
The ferocity and effectivness of the Finnish defense is what caused the terms to be offered, without that Finland would have simply been another provice of the Soviet Union from 1939 to 1991.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Staga, it's all very interesting reading, especially that lists of people that have mostly Russian names, with some comments in Finnish, that I can't understand (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
It looks like you speak Finnish propaganda, while me and Lynx speak Soviet.
So - here goes another portion from Soviet side.
You say that there is no doubt that Stalin wanted to conquer Finland and make it a Soviet province. How does this correspond with the fact that in 1939 Soviet government suggested to trade Karelian istmuth for considerably larger territory in Karelia and Laplandia? And in fact, after a collapse of the Soviet-Finnish front Finnish parliamnet simply agreed to the pre-war Soviet "suggestions"?
The ball is on your side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Finnish government saw that offer as a somekind of a bait. After what happened in other countries like Estonia, Latvija and Lithuania they were quite suspicious about Soviet Unions offerings and not without reason.
http://www.ciesin.ee/ESTCG/HISTORY/History3.html (http://www.ciesin.ee/ESTCG/HISTORY/History3.html)
_____________________________ ________________
Non-aggression Pact between Soviet Union and Germany
The Government of the German Reich and The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Desirous of strengthening the cause of peace between Germany and the U.S.S.R., and proceeding from the fundamental provisions of the Neutrality Agreement concluded in April, 1926 between Germany and the U.S.S.R., have reached the following Agreement:
Article I. Both High Contracting Parties obligate themselves to desist from any act of violence, any aggressive action, and any attack on each other, either individually or jointly with other Powers.
Article II. Should one of the High Contracting Parties become the object of belligerent action by a third Power, the other High Contracting Party shall in no manner lend its support to this third Power.
Article III. The Governments of the two High Contracting Parties shall in the future maintain continual contact with one another for the purpose of consultation in order to exchange information on problems affecting their common interests.
Article IV. Neither of the two High Contracting Parties shall participate in any grouping of powers whatsoever that is directly or indirectly aimed at the other party.
Article V. Should disputes or conflicts arise between the High Contracting Parties over problems of one kind or another, both parties shall settle these disputes or conflicts exclusively through friendly exchange of opinion or, if necessary, through the establishment of arbitration commissions.
Article VI. The present Treaty is concluded for a period of ten years, with the proviso that, in so far as one of the High Contracting Parties does not advance it one year prior to the expiration of this period, the validity of this Treaty shall automatically be extended for another five years.
Article VII. The present Treaty shall be ratified within the shortest possible time. The ratifications shall be exchanged in Berlin. The Agreement shall enter into force as soon as it is signed.
[The section below was not published at the time the above was announced.]
Secret Additional Protocol.
On the occasion of the signature of the Non-Aggression Pact between the German Reich and the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics the undersigned plenipotentiaries of each of the two parties discussed in strictly confidential conversations the question of the boundary of their respective spheres of influence in Eastern Europe. These conversations led to the following conclusions:
Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.
Article II. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish State, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San.
The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish State and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments.
In any event both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement.
Article III. With regard to Southeastern Europe attention is called by the Soviet side to its interest in Bessarabia. The German side declares its complete political disinterest in these areas.
Article IV. This Protocol shall be treated by both parties as strictly secret.
Moscow, August 23, 1939.
For the Government of the German Reich
v. Ribbentrop
Plenipotentiary of the Government of the U.S.S.R.
V. Molotov
_____________________________ ________________
Boroda do you really think it wasn't Stalins intention to occupie Finland 1939?
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Treaty of Non-Aggression and Pacific Settlement of Disputes between the Soviet Union and Finland, concluded on January 21, 1932.
http://www.pp.clinet.fi/~pkr01/history/nonagen1.html (http://www.pp.clinet.fi/~pkr01/history/nonagen1.html)
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Link to the site which contains some information about 20:th century genocides: http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/index.html (http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/index.html)
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[/QUOTE]Originally posted by -lynx-: And how, my obviously so f*****g learnt friend, one is supposed to acquire knowledge if not by raising questions?)[/B][/QUOTE]
What I have or haven't learned doesn't have anything to do with this. Questions are good. roadkill statements with no facts what so ever to back them up on the other hand...
[/QUOTE]Originally posted by -lynx-:I know enough to say the Finnish troops were hated more than Germans about their conduct on occupied territory.[/B][/QUOTE]
You can be a wiseguy and say that of course there isn't any proof. So tell me where have you heard this? Quotes, Sources, anything? I haven't heard anything even remotely applying to this direction on the contrary actually. It isn't hard to start offending people like this. I could always say "During the last days of Desert Storm british soldiers slaughtered thousands of iraqi war prisoners in cold blood." Now how does that sound? Then I could say "Of course I don't have any proof, stupid. They didn't just let me stand there and film it all." I'm not saying that single incidents didn't happen. Like in any war in those circumstances toejam happens. There are good and bad people in every nation. And not all are psycologigly fit to fight a war. But what you are claiming never ever happened. In other words you better come up with something fast or otherwise eat your words and apologize.
Originally posted by -lynx-:Leningrad blockade, remember how your oh so darn glorious and chivalrous troops side by side with their German masters tried to starve 1,000,000 people into submission?[/B]
Read Staga's replies on this matter. Once again, read up before you speak up. And one question...How could it be possible to a country with Finland's small population and resources leave an enemy city with 4-3 million people behind its lines?
[/QUOTE]Originally posted by -lynx-:
1. Finns slaughtered thousands of Soviet troops with their bare hands - yet peace negotiations were started by the Finnish government - discuss.
2. Finns slaughtered thousands of Soviet troops with their bare hands - yet the Soviet troops somehow retained occupied territory and the buffer zone around Leningrad was created - discuss.[/B][/QUOTE]
First of all finns didn't slaughter thousands of Soviet troops with their bare hands. I bet you have heard atleast SOMETHING about fire arms...There's no doubt about it that if the war had continued much longer Finland would have ran out of resourches before The Soviet Union. Read Boroda's replies. It is also true that Soviet Union couldn't occupy Finland without unacceptable losses. Finns had to accept the peace terms but soviets had to back down to lick their wounds also. Soviets DID go into Winter War with fast invasion of Finland as a purpose it's a historical fact. For example after the battle of Raateroad finns examined dead russian soldiers and found out that they were more ready to have fun in Oulu (their "march destination" in Finland's west coast) than to fight a war. They had condoms and other stuff for "free-time activities" in Finland. Also they had Parade trumpets with them for the Victory Parade which was supposed to take part in Oulu. Headquarters of the Red Army also published a book called "Marching guide to Finland" (or something like that...I'll go pick it up from the library and post more about it later if there's a need for it). It's like a friggin' tourist guide! Red Army estimated that they would march to the Helsinki in two weeks. So it's correct to say that Soviet Union wasn't able to invade Finland.
[/QUOTE]Originally posted by -lynx-:
Finland was allied with Hitler - there's no way around it. Then you "saw the errors of your way" and this somehow provided freedom from occupation/reparations etc. (Why didn't, say, Hungary or Romania just said - "Oops..." Oh wait - they did but for them it somehow didn't matter, they were overrun and a puppet governments were set upon them.) What you "Western" historians say about that? Or doesn't it (again I might add) fit into the accepted "Bad Ruskies no matter what" cliche?[/B][/QUOTE]
Hungary and Romania were basically occupied by the germans, Finland wasn't. Finland fought its own war while Romania and Hungary more or less fought Germany's war in the eastern front. Sure Finland had many german units in the country. But units like "Unit Kuhlmey" strictly under finnish high command. Basically only thing separating it from finnish units was nationality of its pilots and the markings of its planes. Finland was, with the assistance of german forces, able to halt soviet counter attack in The Continuation War and preserve its independence without any mercy from the Soviet Union if that's what you are implying here. Soviets just noticed that occupation of Finland wasn't possible with resonable effort and losses and turned it's attention towards Berlin. And just for your information I have absolutely nothing against russians as a nation. I have many russian friends and have visited them in Viipuri. From my personal experience they are very social and easy going people.
[/QUOTE]Originally posted by -lynx-:
...and that relates to Finland's chances to withstand an all out attack of "old fashioned" but many times outnumbering and much better armed army exactly how? The valiance and skill of individual Finnish soldier/pilot made a noticeable dent but wouldn't matter in the end. In the war of attrition you simply stood no chance however brave defense was put up. For chrissakes, Russia withstood Hitler's army onslaught! Or didn't you know that?[/B][/QUOTE]
Not individuals individually but many skilled individuals working together with superior tactics compared to the enemy. And you obviously don't see that army that attacked Finland wasn't exactly the same army that turned the tide against german's in the eastern front. One russian officer (Winter War vet) that was interviewed in a russian made documentary said along these lines: "It was the finns that taught us to fight a war." Soviet Winter War troops were poorly trained without the moral of the finns (there wasn't really a reason for the soviet soldiers which had been picked up from Ukraine to fight this war...they didn't quite knew why they were in it in first place!).
1Wmaker1
Lentolaivue 34
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Staga, the so-called "Secret Protocols" is a boring old dusty mothballed cold-war fake. Noone ever saw original copies signed by Molotov. The main purpose for this fake was to fed up nationalist movements in Baltic republics. Good, reasonable purpose: look at the beautiful anti-Russian fascist regime at Latvia.
Anyway, it has nothing to do with White-Finn war.
Staga, I really do believe that Stalin didn't want to occupy Finland. Usually if he wanted something - he got it, by force or by diplomatic and trading games, like Tuva. My family suffered from bolshevik regime, but I have to admit that he was the most successful Russian politician of the XX century, if not to say more. I thought about the results of that war for a long time, and I came to a conclusion that his decision to agree to stop at the pre-war suggestions after completely defeating Finland and suffering enormous losses is a result of the world public opinion of that days, respect for people of Suomi, or probably showing that he was a man of his word. The last two opportunities can't be underestimated: he was Georgian, a man from Caucasus...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Hmm. Staga, your link to genocide is, hmmm... Can't find the right word. If you rely on such "sources" - then we'll probably never agree on some questions.
I've read articles about Bosnia and Ukraine, looked at the maps - it's not worth the magnetic domains on the disk surface it occupies.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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We all know how the history books were written in ex russia.
However Boroda: I respect your patriotism and the losses of your countrymen. I believe the views of both of you have some truth in them.
Both: why fight the war over again on this board? It happened, we survived - and no amount of roadkill on this bb can change the fact. If some ignorant wants to throw dirt on the subject - leave him in his shame. If he's stupid enough to make comments that make him laughed at, let him.
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roadkill statements with no facts what so ever to back them up on the other hand...
well-well - it's what you choose to call BS, isn't it? I'm sorry, I'm not in Russia and can't come up with equal number of websites as a source of info (only based in Russia and in Russian - just to "help" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) for you to examine and eventually still call BS because you are already have your mind made up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
What kind of proof you want to accept that Finnish occupational troops were feared more than Germans? It is what is called "people's knowledge", it's what the survivors told - it's in the books and people's memory. It's difficult to document but it so obviously comes not from "official sources" that it is very believable to me. Maybe Finns felt that they had scores to settle?
Officially Finland was a "friend" after WW2, surely you know that? Who in his right mind would slag off a "friend"? Survivors on the other hand, they didn't care for politics, they just remembered how it was. You chose not to believe it - that is up to you.
On the other hand, your personal "difficulty in believing in Stalin's sticking to the agreement" is obviously not based on any fact but that seems OK to you and yours. Others for some reason have to "prove themselves”?
Funnily enough, the fact is that Stalin did stick to his word. Regardless of your personal perceptions of the terms the peace treaty was signed by both parties - that is the Soviets and your own legitimate government. Contrary to your (and Staga's – “…After what happened in other countries like Estonia, Latvija and Lithuania they were quite suspicious about Soviet Unions offerings and not without reason…” ) disbelief in the Soviets' sticking to the terms they did not break it, you did. On the 25 June 1941 Finland without provocation attacked the Soviet Union. Mind you, it wasn't "our cause is just, the enemy will be crushed and the victory will be ours" (J. Stalin) - no, not the "small" Finland deciding to risk everything in order to recover lost territory, not "the underdog taking it to the big bully persay" (AG Sachsenberg) - they waited 3 days - to see how German attack (22.06.1941) would progress before deciding “to join the party”… Did they teach you this in school and, if they did, how do you justify that “honourable deed”?
I have a few more documented facts for you to ponder about:
Finland was “winning” (that is largely according to you and Staga) yet it was Finland who asked for peace in Winter War. In fact, they kept asking for peace since December'39 (one month into the war) until the negotiations began and pretty much agreed to anything Soviets demanded. Why would a winning side do that? Let you in on a little secret – you weren’t winning the war. Not individuals individually but many skilled individuals working together with superior tactics compared to the enemy.
Individual successes and tactical victories you like so much to point to were not helping much: "...The situation at the front was near catastrophic. The commander of the II Corps, Lt.Gen. Öhquist, stated that the front could maybe hold for a week, but no more. The Finnish suffered average daily losses of nearly 1 000 men, and especially the officer losses were alarming. The only conclusion was, that any delays in the peace negotiations would result only in worse conditions and harder demands..." ( www.winterwar.com (http://www.winterwar.com) - nice site, in English and is owned by a Finn who seems to be unafraid of the truth...) That’s March 1940 btw, before your government signed for anything Molotov was asking for.
According to what Staga and yourself posted here, Finland allied itself with Germany because “Allies abandoned Finland to face Soviet Union alone and only Germans were helping out”: As far as I know that was the only hand, Only country which were able to send food, ammos, guns, tanks and planes when Finland fought against Russia. Allies had some nice thoughts '40 thought it needs more than good will to fight against red-army invasion forces.
Fact is that without help from Germany there wouldn't be any free Finland after the war but a country just like Eastern Germany with a puppet government.
Just shows how little you do know, doesn’t it? As aircav pointed out it’s the other side actually helped – your entire airforce was made of non German aircraft, France was ready to ship 50,000 troops to help you fight the Soviet invasion in Winter war etc Germany sent you squat during the Winter War and yet you felt grateful to them for saving you? Oh well…
Btw German "Ostersee Division" helped Finland to keep its new freedom in 1918 when their landing troops went to Hanko (Small city/harbor west of Helsinki) and helped so called "whites" to defeat "Reds": communists who wished Finland should stay as a part of Russia.
Staga, pal, go back to school, OK? Normal school please, not the school of revisionist history and fiction. Those “reds” gave you your freedom in the first place. Lenin’s government was the first to recognise Finland as a state… Jeepers…
I'm with Staga on this one. Finland successfully fought for its existance. They hurt Russia enough so that Stalin offered terms rather than set himself up for more hurt, not because he didn't want all of Finland. Finland accepted the terms because they didn't want to have their nation occupied and be fighting a resistance war.
The ferocity and effectivness of the Finnish defense is what caused the terms to be offered, without that Finland would have simply been another provice of the Soviet Union from 1939 to 1991.
and you are wrong Karnak – Soviets never “offered terms”, Finns did. Finns were losing that war, plain and simple. The whole story about Winter War seems to be turned up side down to accommodate oh so more “acceptable” and propagated by some historians “truth” about “little defenceless honourable Finland” fighting “ruthless and merciless bad Ruskies” and somehow winning. When it came to sticking to agreements it was the Finns who failed that test. And in the light of later factual Finnish attack on the Soviet Union one could only be grateful for Stalin’s foresight in 1939… Leningrad would stand a very slim chance indeed had the border not been pushed farther away from the city.
We all know how the history books were written in ex russia
Thank you MrSid for your vote of confidence. Looks like in this case they weren’t that far from what actually happened, weird huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Who would expect that to come from an “ignorant who wants to throw dirt on the subject”? Yours wasn’t the last laugh (excuse the pun) it seems… (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
One reason why Finnish government didn't trust Soviet-Union and for me it looks like this is daily issue even now (Tchetshenia).
BTW my father was a refugee; He and his family had to left Viipuri because of russian invasion. He told me how they had to run to the woods from road because of Russian fighters and bombers.
BTW my parents are refugees. They had to flee Grozny – the capital of Chechnya, that very place where all “democracy lovers” of the world are trying to rub Russia’s nose in. You have not a slightest idea what is going on there and why and yet you feel you have a right to pass your judgement on the place… (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Under no circumstances I condone the attack of the Soviet Union on Finland under whatever daft pretense it was made. But lets limit the amount of roadkill spewed about what happened 60 years ago and perpetuated by some obviously rather ignorant people for god knows what reason…
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 05-17-2001).]
[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 05-17-2001).]
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Lynx you've read a russian version of history and I've read a western version of same era. Which one should I trust ? Obviously you trust enough to Soviet books but thats your loss, not my.
And those British/French troops: Think about Winter -39. Do I had to say more? If they could fight in the winter like it was that year how long could they stay after German invasion to France?
How about those planes? Do you think we could get more and newer planes in '41 from France and Britain? How would Allied troops in Finland effect to Germany's will to sell planes, tanks and other supplies badly needed in Finland?
Again use your own brains...
Lynx do you know why the Finnish civil war 1918 is also called as a "Independence war" ?
I'm not going to tell you because I'm sure you wouldn't believe me so find it out yourself.
BTW "Continuation War" started when Russian bombers bombed Finland 25.6.1941 when they "tried" to find German planes in Finnish airfields. Here's a link (http://www.att.virtualclassroom.org/vc97/VC_77/msalo/JATKOSOTA/testi.html), believe what it says or don't, I really don't care.
Propably some propaganda again...
Lynx one propose:
Try to find some western history books about what happened between SU and Finland in 1939-44. They might be closer the truth that those Russian ones.
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Lynx: I have only one thing to say to you..
and thats ROFL.
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Lynx one propose:
Try to find some western history books about what happened between SU and Finland in 1939-44. They might be closer the truth that those Russian ones.
With all due respect - www.winterwar.com (http://www.winterwar.com) and a link to the site's info sources (not a single one originated in Russia): http://www.winterwar.com/referenc.htm (http://www.winterwar.com/referenc.htm) - personally, I haven't had access to any other but Western history books for the last 11 years (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It's what you read in them, ain't it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
MrSid: (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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The link you supplied is a site made by a finn. It's also heavily under construction - what was the point you were trying to prove?
If you're going to give internet sites as your references, you better get your head out of your ass. Internet is not a realiable source of information.
Besides, nobody in finland claimed we won the conflict in general terms of winning.
We consider being able to stop the soviet assault a victory in itself. No other country was able to do that in ww2.
You can twist it as much as you like, we fought for our country and freedom and we had it in the end. I'd consider that a success.
It's too bad you decided to escape from russia. I'm sure the communist regime would have found you a great job as the party propaganda master. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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The link you supplied is a site made by a finn. It's also heavily under construction - what was the point you were trying to prove?
I was merely pointing out that I wasn't getting my information from "Russian history books". The guys who's building the site listed enough books there as source for the information published on his site, most of those are by finnish authors and in Finnish. What are you trying to say now? He's lying/can't translate into English or is it the case of your version of history does not agree with the facts? Maybe you need to check where your head is?
Besides, nobody in finland claimed we won the conflict in general terms of winning.
Oops, I didn't know Staga/Wmaker were in exile cuz that's exactly what they claimed and that's exactly what started the whole thing.
You can twist it as much as you like, we fought for our country and freedom and we had it in the end. I'd consider that a success.
I don't think I was the one doing the twisting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) neither were you the one doing the fighting...
It's too bad you decided to escape from russia. I'm sure the communist regime would have found you a great job as the party propaganda master.
News for you pal - communist regime is no longer. Been gone for quite a few years. You also seem to unable to separate Russia/Russians from communist led state machine. As for propaganda masters - I don't think you lot need to apply for the job. Spreading roadkill about what actually happened is not doing any good to memory of those Finnish pilots and soldiers who actually fought for the freedom of their country against overwhelming odds and with great skill and courage (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif).
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MrSid, you can laugh - but my only sources about White-Finnish war are books and articles translated from English. USSR never was afraid to publish honest historical books written in the West, even if they didn't correspond with Party line.
At school we were told that White-Finnish war started because the border was only 32km from Leningrad. There was nothing in our history schoolbooks about Mainila.
Now, let's sum up the facts:
1) USSR offered Finnish government a "bargain" to get Karelian Istmuth back.
2) Finnish government refused.
3) USSR attacked Finland.
4) Finland tried to defend itself and caused enormous losses.
5) In March, 1940, USSR broke Finnish defence completely and was ready to occupy the whole country.
6) Finnish government suddenly agreed to a pre-war "bargain".
7) USSR ceased hostilities and withdrew troops.
Please, note that both me and Lynx are happy that Finland didn't lose it's independance, and have great respect to the people of Suomi.
BTW, the ball is still on your side. What do you think about the victory conditions?
PblCb, zdorovo u tebya poluchaetsya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Ya k sozhaleniyu yazyk tak horosho ne znayu.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Lynx: I never said the facts on the web site were false. I read the content and it seemed pretty much accurate to me.
I guess it's just a question of different views.
Btw: With introduction of V. Putin, it seems that your country is slipping back to old ways of dictatorship, no freedom of speech and communist party getting more and more power.
Putin already silenced the media by buying out the main tv station..
Although I agree that if I was in his position I'd probably do the same. With the state of affairs left after Yeltsin, that country surely needs an iron hand to look after it.
I just hope that if he's going to be a tyran, he'll be an 'enlightened' one.
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And lynx: I wasn't the one doing the fighting, but my family members were. Were you on the front then? If not, you seem to be awfully fanatic about the subject.
The discussion is over as far as I'm concerned. I was a fool to get into this excercise of futility in the first place.
I wish you a happy exile life in the UK, live long and prosper. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Over and... out.
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Btw: With introduction of V. Putin...
I know - my folks still there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)