Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Krusty on June 05, 2006, 01:59:22 PM
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DISCLAIMER: I realize this was a "Special attack" unit skin. I know there has been debate about it on these forums. I'm going to let HTC decide if it's allowed. If so, "yay". If not, then I had fun working on it and that's good enough for me.
So I decided to get a head start on my next skin as I'm finishing up my previous 2 P47N skins (still working on those too).
There were other aircraft from the same Sentai (?) that had similar markings (red stripe) but this is the only one I saw that had arrow points on the nose. It is not black, but rather a very dark brown-green color. Some call it "very dark brown green" some call it "chocolate brown" and one decal sheet says its black, but notes that "some sources say it is a dark shade of chocolate brown".
General preview, no weathering yet, most of the basic layers are there, though.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149532926_ki84_1.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149532948_ki84_2.jpg)
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Looking good so far Krusty.
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Love it! As a frequent ki-84 driver I hope it gets accepted.
Excellent job.
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I'd fly it.:aok cant wait to see finished product.:t
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I think I need to weather the hell out of the paint, though. That Japanese paint didn't hold up too well.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think I need to weather the hell out of the paint, though. That Japanese paint didn't hold up too well.
No, it didn't, but if it was painted for a "Special Attack" how weathered would it be? It doesn't seem like it would have seen the service to weather it much.
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it looks brandy new :D i like it :aok
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Originally posted by Karnak
No, it didn't, but if it was painted for a "Special Attack" how weathered would it be? It doesn't seem like it would have seen the service to weather it much.
Nobody builds aircraft just to destroy them their first use. Chances are this aircraft existed before it was given a bright red arrow along both sides. And chances are it flew more than one combat mission.
It would be as weathered as any other Ki84 skin we have (the default of which appears to have the most worn-off paint)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Nobody builds aircraft just to destroy them their first use. Chances are this aircraft existed before it was given a bright red arrow along both sides. And chances are it flew more than one combat mission.
It would be as weathered as any other Ki84 skin we have (the default of which appears to have the most worn-off paint)
I wasn't thinking the aircraft hadn't seen servcie, but just that it was newly painted to its new role. That might just mean the arrow wasn't weathered though.
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Supposedly this dark color was found on other 57th Sentai (do I have the right term there?) aircraft as well. It's not just a one-off paint. So I'm thinking there will be some wear and tear on the brown with the red/white staying crisp. That's how I've got it in my mind to do this skin.
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Was it not black, colour blind lol !
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I tell you what Krusty, your skins are comming on really nice mate.
You have done yourself proud, special attack or not !
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Thanks Kazaa. I'm not as seasoned as some on this forum. Seems some folks just go to sleep and wake up with a beautiful skin under their pillow (lol). They make it look easy.
Now begins my experimental stage, where I'm trying out new things for the wearing of the paint. What do you all think of this? I'm probably not going to have so MUCH wearing of the paint on the final version, but I'm trying to get the technique down, and it helps to exaggerate a bit.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149636737_ki841_1.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149636692_ki841_3.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149636681_ki841_2.jpg)
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Love it? Hate it? Keep refining it? Scrap it and try something else?
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Love it... and I'll fly it...
I'm not sure about the weathering as it stands at the moment... to me it looks like it was being painted and they were running out of green (is that what you were going for?) rather than the paint has been worn through because of foot traffic on the wing roots...
But I think it looks great and will be a fine addition if it is accepted.
Thanks for the hard work Krusty :aok
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I wasn't going for "ran out of paint", rather "paint was poor quality, and wore off across the aircraft, not just from foot traffic but from the natural elements".
I guess I'll try something else, then.
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Krusty, I think I remember seeing a color photo of a Ki-84 in an old PTO book I had. The paint on most IJA aircraft chipped or flaked off from poor quality - this one looks worn.
Perhaps that approach would best suit what you're trying to achieve?
(P.S - I'm giving you a hint so you can finish it up and submit it :D )
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You mean, with sharper definition? Like it's falling off? Less "blur"? I'll give it a shot. Probably won't have something new til the weekend, have to work on a 3D project until Friday.
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Little bit too much wear & tear mate, I would like to see it as close to the original pictures as possible !
But it's looking good !
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Are you sure the colour is right ? (http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/ki84bp_1.htm)
Looks black to me, but then again ! :rolleyes:
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Yes. I have one "good" source (Scale Aviation Modeller International - October 2004) that is respectable, and it states it is a very dark brown-green color.
There are also 2 decal sheets from Aeromaster decals, Eagle Strike Productions, for 2 aircraft in the same unit (one with red stripe, one with red arrow) that lists it as "chocolate brown". There is a third decal sheet from "Flying Papa's" (no idea how reputable) that shows it in a shade of dark green.
Finally there was one last decal sheet I found that said to paint it black, but in the same sentence said that some sources claimed it actually dark brown in color.
So I think the consensus is that it wasn't black. Majority vote :D
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Compared to the last set of images, better, or worse?
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149700126_ki841_4.jpg)
EDIT: I realize it looks a little sloppy, I was rushed.
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Krusty
As inspiration here is a picture of a Ki84 that Im working on... its heavily worn and I think it looks quite ok...
(http://83.227.73.189/ah/ki84/worncolor.jpg)
What I have done is that Ive made a baremetal skin that I then added a paint layer on.. on this paint layer I added a removal mask... so it really is flaked off color exposing metal..
Tex
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Did you hand-paint the mask? Or is there an "easy" way? (lol, I don't think there's an easy way but I have to ask!).
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Its hand made but there is a way to do it easier...
I took a brush that has a square uneven shape and looks like a color flake... then I adjusted it so there was more separation, more scatering, rotated it to the right direction and then I enabled fading... air brush on, opticity about 60% and flow about 30-40% cant remember since Im not on that computer atm...
I used this brush to "paint" over all the plane lines... the flakes usually start there.. then once the entire plane had a basic set of small flakes I started with the crossings between the plane lines and made the flaking bigger there... thats where the worst flaking starts... then worked my way back on the plane from there..
Tex
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I get the idea of what you're saying. It's about as much work as I had expected it was going to be.
When I'm done with this Ki84 I have another one planned, as well. Hopefully it won't take me all summer to master this technique. I'd like to see both skins in the game.
EDIT: Question: would the wing ID bands not have as much chipping? Would the quality of the paint differ? Would that be more solid, and the green color be more chipped?
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Ive pondered that my self as well...
What I *think* might be closer to the truth is that squad markings and id bands where repainted more often then the rest of the plane..
Tex
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Doesnt answer the question... but good for reference...
(http://www.ijaafpics.com/JB&W/Ki-84-6s.jpg)
(http://www.ijaafpics.com/JB&W2/Ki-84-34.jpg)
Ki 61 but its the paint that matters..
(http://www.ijaafpics.com/JB&W2/Ki-61-27.jpg)
And a 43
(http://www.warbirdpictures.com/ArmyJB&W/Ki43-1a.jpg)
Tex
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Very interesting. My eye spots two types of wear and tear. The first type is access related. People climbing onto parts etc. This is paint flaking/chipping. The second type is sun/rain/airflow related, and generally fades the paint over the wings and so forth, but doesn't really chip so much. Use the second image as the best example of this.
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very good spotting and that is what Ive been missing... the wings on my ki just didnt feel right...
thanks..
still I think it should be done though removing from paint layer rather then painting on something that looks like metal...
basicly just use a less opticity brush for that ware..
Tex
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I've been doing the opposite. I'll give it a go this way next time I'm dinking around in photoshop.
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A very interesting close-up of a weathered cowling (forground) is tempered by a relatively un-weathered craft behind it.
http://www.ijaafpics.com/JB&W2/Ki-84-27.jpg
EDIT:
Distinctly irregular hinomaru (hand painted):
http://www.ijaafpics.com/JB&W2/Ki-84-33.jpg
Note the down slash on the exhaust stain (perhaps from prop wash direction?)
http://www.ijaafpics.com/JB&W3/Ki-84-46s.jpg
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I dont wana brag but compare the cowling of the first pic you posted with the cowling of my ki... imho that technique gives pretty good results... ;)
when doing the oposite it really does look like you have sprayed grey dust on the plane... not worn of the color...
Tex
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Shame would like to see one black, oh well.
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Don't worry. It's nearly black. Anybody fighting against you will only see a very dark color. I can only tell the difference because I have a bright LCD. Somebody with a CRT might just see pure black.
I chose my color with a lot of thought. If it was so dark that some people though it was black, that tells you something. The color you see in those screenshots is one of two choices I was thinking of. The second was too dark. I wanted a little distinction between the anti-glare and the rest of the plane. I might yet make it half a shade darker (than it is) before I'm done.
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Oh yeah, that sounds right.
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I'm still playing with how to do some wing chipping. Mind you I don't think there will be this much in the final version -- but when else can I learn it?? :p
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149908448_ki841_5.jpg)
There's 3 types of wear on this image.
The fuselage has the same type as the wing root, but has the edges softened by a very light blur.
The wing roots have a combination of layer mask (simple bare metal underneath) and lighter brush-based scratches (the two in tandem is how I made it look like this)
And just at the end of the image you can see some white blur... That's an attempt to get the wear on the outer wing panels down pat. I haven't got anything good yet so I didn't focus on that.
So what do you think of the fuselage and the wing root?
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Originally posted by Krusty
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1149532948_ki84_2.jpg)
As an avid fan and flyer of the Ki-84 in AH, Im plain giddy looking at this. I hope in the end she only has slightly weathered paint, but either way this will be my new exclusive skin. Very,very, nice Krusty. :aok
Hurry up btw:D
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Originally posted by Slash27
Hurry up btw:D
:rofl
I just need to tweak the white around the arrow where it touches the anti-glare, need to add stains/drips/leaks, and then the weathering.... The question is: how much? How little? etc etc. I've got to play with it to find out what "feels" right, and that means (basically) it takes time. :/
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Well take your time and make sure youre happy with it. I already am.:aok
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No worries. I think I'll just put a hold on the paint chipping practice and do everything but that. Then I'll return to it as the final step.
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More progress, now that the chipping has been pushed to the side. This is what I had in mind when I began (not so much chipping as much as paint wearing). Probably not entirely historical, but it's a start.
[EDIT: P.S. This is a darker color. Too dark for my tastes. I think I'm going a shade lighter to differentiate the anti-glare more, but I just took the screenshots anyways]
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150434972_ki841_6.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150434991_ki841_7.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150435011_ki841_8.jpg)
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Quick color update: I think I'll stick with this shade. All the other details in the previous screenshots are the same, I just changed the layer with the base color.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150436059_ki841_9.jpg)
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Looks great man:aok
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The katakana (naruno or "No step") on the left wing is mirror image. I suppose that's the way the wing textures have to be, but it's not readable like that.
I suspect you made the kanji on the fuselage in Photoshop or something else? Not criticizing, just pointing out that the second kanji is written a little strange.
Here is an image: (http://tech-rep.org/jin.jpg)
Good luck!
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looks really good!!
tex
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Sheesh, I should never post when I'm sleepy... the right wing katakana is wrong - it's noruna.
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Slash, tex, thanks for the kind words
Rolex, you've lost me here... I've got something on each wing by the red box outboard of the cannon. But they're not mirrored. I've then got something on the tail "Be sure to have sunk" that has a character that looks like the image you posted, but its not on the wings.
Can you clarify which character is wrong? I hand-drew them based on a lower-resolution image, but there's no guaranteeing the image was 100% either.
EDIT: Ah, the wings characters are mirrored, well I'll be. I can fix that, though. However, my characters don't look anything like the one you posted. Is just that character reversed? Or is the entire string supposed to be reversed? Any other info on how that text should look would be great.
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The characters on the leading edge of the left wing are oriented correctly. Just make the right wing the same.
The two kanji characters on the fuselage should look like this: (http://tech-rep.org/hitsu.jpg)(http://tech-rep.org/jin.jpg)
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How does this look, for the text?
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:aok
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Looking good Krusty, real nice.
P.S: Going back to an old topic, did you try this plane with the black paint ?
P.P.S: If you did, how did it look ?
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The one on the left is pure black. The one on the right is dark dark brown. I think you can see more detail on the brown, plus several sources claim there was a dark brown color.
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Do both. They're too pretty not too.:D
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Now now, Slash, you know better than that
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Fantastic Krusty, I'd pat you on the back if I could mate.
It's a shame that you cannot submit both, becasue I am in love with the black version (going back to the model, did the modeler make a mistake then?)
P.S: You cannot change history, great work !
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Click (http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/ki84bp_1.htm)
(http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/ki8472bp_3.jpg)
(http://www.hsgalleries.com/gallery04/images/ki8472bp_4.jpg)
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Probably interpreted incorrectly when it was made into a couple of decal sheets, is my guess. I think there was a model kit with in-box color guide that said black, and there was a low quality older decal sheet that said black. So I think it's just a mistake. Most "recent" decal sheets say dark brown. I'm just going to do the dark brown, as that's the more likely color.
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Image heavy post here.
First has a glitch by the leading edge wing roots. The following pics have that fixed but I forgot to take another screen like this. It shows the underside nicely.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150517725_ki841_12.jpg)
The rest had several tweaks installed. These are all taken after those tweaks were added. I think it's basically done.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150517745_ki841_13.jpg)
(this image shows the wing root leading edge fix)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150517759_ki841_14.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150517792_ki841_15.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150517804_ki841_16.jpg)
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The paint was either used specifically for this type of unit (although some aircraft from the same unit have the same dark color and some have the standard color -- it seems to be mixed) or it was an in-the-field replacement color.
In either case, the aircraft were repainted in the field, and the paint wasn't so old and worn. I wanted to show wear and tear, and some scuffing, but I didn't want any bear metal to show through. My logic is that the paint was newer than other Ki84s, it wouldn't have gotten that bad.
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I think the panel lines on the bottom might need to stand out just a little more.
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After looking at it, I feel the same about the ones on top, too.
These images are LARGE, because if you reduce their size you lose something in regards to panel lines and rivets. I didn't want to lose any detail.
bottom:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150560532_ki841_17.jpg)
top:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1150560605_ki841_18.jpg)
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Two minor details that I didn't know, so I'll ask here:
1) the "no walk" red outlines on the leading edge of the wings -- do they go under or over the roundels? Because they overlap a bit on the outer corner. I have them over the roundels at the moment
2) the underside image I just posted above has a cigar-shaped oil cooler, or some sort of cooler. I was sort of presuming it's supposed to be metal color. I don't know if it should be the same color as the undersurfaces.
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Krusty,
take your pick... these fonts looks better to me... although they are not the same as those on the decals.
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What's the difference? I Mean, I see the difference, but is one "casual" or one "older" or something?
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Originally posted by Krusty
What's the difference? I Mean, I see the difference, but is one "casual" or one "older" or something?
ahhh... one is more like script and the other is block letters... although not entirely, there are script handwriting that does not separate the letters at all.
The fonts used by Rolex is like typewriter fonts. These are "handwritten" fonts...
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Does anybody have any pictures of other planes with any type of script on them? I'd like to see which was used. Because on a lot of western artwork, there are odd fonts, block scripts, and what-not used, to make it stylistic or to make it easier to read, and so forth. I think I'd need some real example before I could be 100% sure which to put in.
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I agree (aesthetically) with the brown over the black, if for no other reason than it almost matches the Ki61 we have in game color wise. :)
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It does??!?!?!
LOL I didn't even bother to check the Ki61s!! lmao!
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:)
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You're right, that is kind of close. Mine's less red-tinted and a bit darker. I wonder if they used a similar paint mixed with something else (that made it darker) on the real thing? That would support the "in-field replacement paint" theory.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Does anybody have any pictures of other planes with any type of script on them? I'd like to see which was used. Because on a lot of western artwork, there are odd fonts, block scripts, and what-not used, to make it stylistic or to make it easier to read, and so forth. I think I'd need some real example before I could be 100% sure which to put in.
Krusty, the letters there are akin to any lettering on the nose art that you would see, meaning that it is handwritten... I doubt that there is any fonts associated with them.
On a side note, I am not sure how to make this out... the first photo is another plane, of 1945, of the same squad...
http://www1.ttv.ne.jp/~kikuchi3/my_page/air_JW_hayate.htm
why is this so different, I have no idea at the moment...
anyway, if you would like to reproduce the decals for your skin, why not purchasing one and use a scanner. That is probably the best thing to do here.
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The decals were more a starting point, a set of guides to help me with the finer details. The skin is all original work.
Of the two, I like the "block" version better -- it's a bit easier to see and define. I did a quick test and getting the narrow slashes connection the different strokes didn't turn out so well because of the low resolution involved (when you only have a pixel and a half for width, it's hard to taper things, etc). So I'll leave it like I had it (for now).
On another note, the feedback has been informative, helpful, but is tapering out. In light of this, and in an attempt to get this into the next skin pack, I've submitted the skin.
I just hope nobody comes out with ground-breaking photos of the real thing that forces me to re-do it from scratch the day after it's accepted! :rofl
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Originally posted by Krusty
So I'll leave it like I had it (for now).
with the typewriter fonts?? oh well...
Originally posted by Krusty
On another note, the feedback has been informative, helpful, but is tapering out. In light of this, and in an attempt to get this into the next skin pack, I've submitted the skin.
I just hope nobody comes out with ground-breaking photos of the real thing that forces me to re-do it from scratch the day after it's accepted! :rofl
well... I did tell about that before...:)
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Of course, you're right FD.
I posted it just to make it clearer.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Of the two, I like the "block" version better -- it's a bit easier to see and define. I did a quick test and getting the narrow slashes connection the different strokes didn't turn out so well because of the low resolution involved (when you only have a pixel and a half for width, it's hard to taper things, etc). So I'll leave it like I had it (for now).
Tip -
Do them twice the size with no anti-aliasing, when you reduce by 50% usually looks OK as you normally get a good anti-aliasing from the reduction.
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Good idea Kev. I do that for some artwork sometimes. I'll give it a shot in a while and see if it turns out any better.
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Originally posted by Rolex
Of course, you're right FD.
me right?? nahh... just me opinion...
Originally posted by Rolex
I posted it just to make it clearer.
Oh I knew that one
;)