Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on June 06, 2006, 05:53:40 PM
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its been on ongoing thing over here.
Basic summary, guy whos a double amputee (got stuck in a storm on a mountain in NZ with another guy, severe frostbite victim, got rescued by some pretty brave guys in bad conditions) sets off to conquer everest. Guy whos on a private tour gets stuck on the way back from the summit. 40 other people go past him while he is still alive. In the case of our double amputee on the way to the summit he radios base camp for advice and the non-medical team leader tells him the guy is going to die anyway so leave him.
NZ always has had a great interest in Everest cos a kiwi climbed it first. Mark Inglis has turned into a bit of an anti-hero, with the general consensus being that whether the guy was gonna die or not he should've turned back and done what he could for the guy ESPECIALLY being a recuee from a previous climb. The climbing community says that if Inglis had taken him back he could've put himself in danger - siting another climber who stayed with a sick client and both died - however, this was on the way up and Inglis went on to climb to the peak... and return.
Now it turns out the poor guy was video'd by a Discovery Channel crew on the way up as well.
What do you guys think? Most of NZ seems to have picked up a distaste for the ethics of the mountain climbing community from this.
Dying climber caught on film
07 June 2006
By MICHAEL FIELD
A new picture of what happened on Mt Everest the day double amputee Mark Inglis reached the summit suggests he was wrongly condemned for not helping dying British climber David Sharp.
As the truth emerges about events on May 15, it turns out that other highly skilled New Zealanders were present – and most of the 40 people there were making a Discovery Channel television documentary.
Sharp was even filmed by the television crew in his last conscious moments on the mountain.
Inglis – who will have three frostbitten fingertips amputated today – has welcomed the revelations, saying he had been unfairly criticised.
"It was a busy day on Everest that day," he said yesterday from his Christchurch hospital bed. "Don't assume no one did anything. That's the big thing and that is the thing everybody has assumed – that 40 people walked past – which is patently incorrect."
Inglis said he was aware many of the people near the summit were from television crews. Others had kept quiet about what happened. "A lot of people have kept their heads low . . . There were a lot of people on the mountain that day."
Inglis said he was in a lot of pain awaiting today's procedure to amputate three fingers at the first knuckle. His badly frostbitten leg stumps will also be "opened up" and checked.
AdvertisementAdvertisement"That hasn't helped along with the whole thing. I have been very lucky to keep my cool really."
Taxpayers will pay the $2500 cost of Inglis' operation, which is funded by ACC. His case is deemed acute, propelling him past a four-month waiting list for plastic surgery.
New Zealander Mark Woodward, who was with Inglis for his climb, agreed with the climber's stand. "Our Sherpas checked (Sharp) and put him on oxygen but unfortunately all that did was prolong everything for him," he said.
Sir Edmund Hillary has said Inglis was wrong not to have helped Sharp.
Asked why he was heavily criticised – despite there being many people in a better position to help – Inglis said: "Bloody good question."
Also at the summit was Queenstown cameraman Mark Whetu, who was filming for the Discovery Channel. He would not comment yesterday.
Discovery's tour company, Himex, is headed by New Zealander Russell Brice, who is expected to make a statement this week from France.
Sharp, who was with the group Asian Trekking, headed to the summit on May 14 but shortly after midnight on May 15 he was found by a Himex group in a distressed state in a rock cave near the summit.
The climbers carried on and reached the summit. On descent around 9am they found Sharp still alive.
New York-based ExplorersWeb, which has had a long-running dispute with Mr Brice, claims they left him.
What was not known at the time of the criticism of Inglis was that British documentary makers Tigress Productions and the Discovery Channel, based in Maryland, United States, had a big crew on the mountain, including Sherpas with helmet cameras.
Some time later in the day a Sherpa wearing a camera found Sharp. ExplorersWeb said the Sherpa asked: "What is your name?"
"My name is David Sharp. I'm with Asian Trekking, and I just want to sleep," the climber replied.
The unnamed Sherpa was said by ExplorersWeb to have left him.
Neither Tigress nor Discovery could be contacted yesterday.
ExplorersWeb has published names and nationalities of climbers it said walked past Sharp. They include a Turkish group and 15 people from Himex, including New Zealanders Inglis, Whetu, Woodward and Wayne Alexander.
Woodward said there had always been much more to the controversy than was suggested last month.
"It was a horrible situation and the guy was beyond help, though he recovered somewhat at one point. When we passed him he was in a hypothermic coma, because it was such a brutally cold night and he had been out for some time."
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Don't bother me. I'm too important for you to mess with my ego pumping vacation.
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Seems like mountain climbers would be a fairly determined bunch... the kind of guys who say "if there's a will there's a way." Apparently determination only applies to walking up hills, not saving lives. As long as that guy was drawing breath there's no justification for not doing everything possible to save him... even if it costs you your bragging rights.
40 people passed him, including the guy who was alive only by the good graces of others in a similar situation? Wow.
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It made the news here in the USA.
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I remember hearing about the amputee climbing Everest, nothing about the dead guy.
Wrong IMO. All of them. The man was alive, you dont just leave him. And for goodness sake, even if you absoluely, beyond any doubt knew the man would not survive, why leave him there suffering? People have more consideration for half dead animals they hit with their car.
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Mountaineers - ptui!
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How do you carry a guy off a mountain top? Wouldn't you need a special harness for that?
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People who climb Everest know the risks and they take their chances.
They know that if something happens while they are in the "death zone" they are most likely going to die.
It takes so much effort up there in the thin air just to move yourself that having to try and resue someone else that is going to die anyway isn't worth the risk.
The top of Everest is one of the most dangerous places in the world.
Bodies litter the mountain in testament to that.
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In this case the fellow idiots on the same risk taking adventures should know that they often can only rely on their fellow idiots to get them out of trouble so they should have helped.
Morons on ego boosting adrenaline trips should never demand or expect help from anyone tho, and never from anyone outside their own group of adrenaline junkies.
One thing is for sure. Government rescue services should never waste their money and risk their lives for people that knowingly put themselves at risk just to get a buzz.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How do you carry a guy off a mountain top? Wouldn't you need a special harness for that?
In 1982 on South-West wall Balyberdin and Myslowsky got stuck something like 60 meters below summit when the night came. Myslowsky was almost unconscious on the way up, Balyberdin gave him his oxygen and literally carried him to the summit. Rescue team broke the orders and reached the summit (first night accent ever) and carried both alpinists to the upper camp, to oxygen and food. On the way down to lower camps Balyberdin could walk somehow, Myslowsky had to be carried by other team mates. So I don't see anything impossible in rescueing that dieing guy. And as far as i understood they accended from Southern Pass, a route not nearly as difficult as South-East wall.
Franlky speaking - I can't understand it. Leaving a man to die without even trying to help... Something I couldn't expect from alpinists. It's worse then 1934 German tragedy on Nanga Parbat :(
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Go to Everest, climb the mountain, look for someone to rescue. It isn't like helping an old lady who has fallen at the grocery store.
There was a Russian who could climb to those heights without oxygen, he helped on one expedition & rescued many people because the oxygen he carried, he could give to the ones in need, oxygen tanks are heavy BTW. This very same Russian died on a climb, lack of oxygen was thought to be the cause. If you are not on your way as an organized professional recue party it's not likely you will have enough skilled manpower & extra supplies to rescue someone.
Keep this in mind folks; the majority of those expeditions are just average joes who are being led by only a couple professional climbers. It is the pros duty to help the ones they took up there, not risk the lives of all for the sake of one. People are so confused when they get hypoxia(sp?) they often become combative & need more than one on one help. It's a deadly sport & people know the risks before they go, & if they do not; then that's where the negligence has occured.
Stay off the mountain unless you know & are willing to accept the risks.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Keep this in mind folks; the majority of those expeditions are just average joes who are being led by only a couple professional climbers. It is the pros duty to help the ones they took up there, not risk the lives of all for the sake of one. People are so confused when they get hypoxia(sp?) they often become combative & need more than one on one help. It's a deadly sport & people know the risks before they go, & if they do not; then that's where the negligence has occured.
There is no way for "average joe" to get anywhere near the base camp in Southern circus.
It's not an amusement park, it requires high above average mountain skills, physical conditions and will. Climbing Everest means that you need to push close to the line between life and death, to the complete exaustion, over any sane limits of self-preservation.
I have some experience, not "average joe", but with my almost non-existent experience in high-alt and cliffhanging - I doubt that i'll make it through Khumbu glacier :(
Maybe you meant that "average joe" is someone like Charles Evans and Tom Bourdillon and "professional climbers" are maniacs like Reingold Messner?...
Anyway, I can't imagine passing by a dieing man and not even trying to do anything. It doesn't matter if the money were payed, or the desire to get to the summit. Maybe I don't have a moral right to say so... :(
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Anyway, I can't imagine passing by a dieing man and not even trying to do anything.
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I dont know.......those folks are half dead by the time they summit anyway and everyone accepts that the risk as part of the package....If I had spent sixty thousand dollars and sacrificed most pleasures in life just for a shot at that mountain peak, I could very easily imagine myself continuing past a man nearly dead himself. What the hell, he knew the risks too. Thing is, I would never be so reckless or foolish as to attempt such a worthless and idiotic endeavor anyways. I would much prefer a lifetime of beautiful sunsets down where the air has oxygen than a few up on some godless frozen tip of a killing mountain where there is no air to breath. Then again thats just my way of looking at things :rolleyes:
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Bah, what's a bigger accomplishment... climbing a mountain or saving a man's life?
Hopefully they have the conscience to regret their decision.
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Bah, what's a bigger accomplishment... climbing a mountain or saving a man's life?
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Dont forget your dealing with people that climb mountains just because "the mountain is there".......whats more they climb mountains so high into the atmosphere theres no air to breath and it nearly kills them just to get to base camp.........
these are not regular ordinary people....these people are certified lunatics. Of course they are going to walk right past a dying fellow lunatic climber. I wouldnt be the least bit surprised to find out that it has happened plenty of times before :O
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yeah, I can understand the mentality to some extent. But the mountain will be there tomorrow, the dying guy will not.
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I dunno, some of the guys that were left there by mountain climbing morons are still there, so the guy they left to die will likely be there tomorrow just like the mountain is.
The problem is guides are taking people up who have no business being there. Lack of ethics. They take people's money, take them climbing, and if the people die, they just die.
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We must ban climbing mountains. If we do this we can save lives, some of those lives could have children. Think of the children, Ban mountain climbing now for the sake of the children!!! Or at least until the brits try to have folks turn it in to the Police. :rolleyes:
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"The climbing community says that if Inglis had taken him back he could've put himself in danger - siting another climber who stayed with a sick client and both died - however, this was on the way up and Inglis went on to climb to the peak... and return."
This really "tears" it for me. The guy kept going up. That's just wrong.
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Just wear a parachute, if you get too sick to keep climbing, jump off a ledge and pop your chute.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Or at least until the brits try to have folks turn it in to the Police. :rolleyes:
Jeeze Mav....still stewing over another thread or something? Where did this come from?
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If I saw a human being anywhere who was in distress like this man was, I would stop whatever the f**K I was doing and do whatever I possibly could for him.
I don't understand how so many people could have just passed him by as he sat there dying. That's criminal in my opinon.
Maybe the guy would have died anyway, but why in the f**K are dozens of people just walking by him and continuing their awesome climb as though it's just tough luck for the poor bastard?
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There is no way for "average joe" to get anywhere near the base camp in Southern circus.It's not an amusement park, it requires high above average mountain skills, physical conditions and will. Climbing Everest means that you need to push close to the line between life and death, to the complete exaustion, over any sane limits of self-preservation.Maybe you meant that "average joe" is someone like Charles Evans and Tom Bourdillon and "professional climbers" are maniacs like Reingold Messner?...
No; I meant anyone with the $26,000 or however much it is now, to be guided up the mountain. The average joe in skills of course, not financially. Double amputees & kids go up that mountain. You need to check into a climb package, if you can pass the physical & have the cash, you're climbing partner.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Dont forget your dealing with people that climb mountains just because "the mountain is there".......whats more they climb mountains so high into the atmosphere theres no air to breath and it nearly kills them just to get to base camp.........
Oxygen equipment was first used by British expedition to Everest in 1922. Sir John Hunt's 1953 Everest expedition already had two types of oxygen devices, and since that time it became much lighter and convenient. In 1953 all British mountaneers ascended clearly shaved, so the oxygen mask fits better.
Originally posted by Yeager
these are not regular ordinary people....these people are certified lunatics. Of course they are going to walk right past a dying fellow lunatic climber. I wouldnt be the least bit surprised to find out that it has happened plenty of times before :O
Of course I never could imagine that such people will be able to leave a dieing man up there. Even in Nanga-Parbat 1934 expedition that I mentioned above two alpinists who successfully went down to camp 4 desperately tried to go back up to help their friends who by some mysterious reason got stuck between camp 8 and camp 7, even after it became obvious that they are dead...
Working on rescue missions is much more important then any ascent, I didn't ever hear about anyone refusing to help, this is probably the first such accident I know about... I'll never shake hands with people who did such things.
OTOH I don't know what I'll do in Ingles' place. :( The situation is absolutely insane, when a person assisting a double-amputee has to decide what to do while there are other climbers aware of the situation and doing nothing. He had to offer his help to other people trying to rescue a dieing man, and they should refuse, but damn - everyone was passing by and watching the poor man die!
There is something very wrong with moral this days :( People I know will probably risk their life but not leave anyone that way.