Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Hawco on June 07, 2006, 06:02:55 PM
-
Could someone explain the difference between BNZ and energy fighting?
I get confused between the 2 and an example of a good energy plane would be most welcome!
Cheers and thanks a lot!
Hawco
-
Boom and Zoom "tactic"
The key element to remember when in the boom and zoom mode is to stay fast and start with an altitude advantage. you start out with an energy advantage(meaning alt + speed), then make a number of dives on your target, maneuvering in order to get a shot as you pass, only to climb again back up to your higher altitude in which you dove from.
You can make a number of different extensions after making your pass, a) go near vertical and climb straight up, b) do a shallow climb maintaining the speed you acquired during the dive to extend well out of harms way, or c) do a Zoom climb (No Load climb) this zoom climb method is the quickest way to recover alt you have given up during the attacking dive. Once you regain your alt advantage reacquire your target and repeat as necessary until you manage to kill the enemy or you run out of energy. It forces the enemy to maneuver to avoid you, but usually does not allow him to apply any pressure to you (although maybe a HO if he gets his nose pointed at you). Each time you make your attack, you climb back up to a position of relative safety (at least from the enemy you are attacking). Even if there are a number of enemies at a level below you, you are only vulnerable during the time at the bottom of each pass, when you are fastest and a tough target.
BnZ style fighting tends to be the safest, least advanced style which requires little more than some precise timing. In the Aces high II hangar you will find some planes that are more suited to BnZ since you intend to spend more time at higher speeds than a typical TnB fight. It doesn’t rely as much on your sustained turning ability, more so relying on having enough turn rate to get into position to attack an enemy who is maneuvering to avoid your quick and slashing passes. Continuously tracking the enemy to win angles is not the primary goal. You are instead trying to predict where the enemy is going to be when you arrive in guns range, constantly updating your course until you take your shot, or decide you cannot make the shot and return to your higher perch.
Energy Fighting
The E Fighting style (energy fighting), is often confused with the BnZ fighting style (boom & zoom fighting), when in actuality that couldn’t be more further from the truth. Yes BnZ is part of E fighting but that is about as far as it goes. The Energy fighter is the purist of the combat fighter pilots, one who has attained the skills of the boom & zoom fighting style and has combined them with the skills of the turn & burn fighting style (stall fighting). He is aggressively offensive by nature yet maintains the patience needed to quarrel his victim until the most opportune time.
To Energy fight you must think both offensive (attacker) mode and defensive (defender) modes at the same time. You must never enter an engagement with less energy, whether your advantage is in altitude, speed, or both. This doesn’t necessarily mean you must always have the alt advantage by no means. One can still have a greater E advantage and still be the lower opponent of the two. For this to work though you must have the ability to tell upon a glance that you are in the catbird’s seat though. SA (situational awareness) plays a big role here.
The E Fighting pilot has taken into account every aspect of the fight offered to him, he has studied his plane in and out and knows his plane’s limitations from one end of the flight envelope all the way to the other(from blackout to stall). He has studied each and every type of fighter he might come up against and has learned the advantages and weakness of each, according to how they compare with the plane he is flying, so he knows upfront what he can and can not do depending on which plane he engages. The E fighter pilot will use his advantages and make his opponent fly to his opponent’s own weaknesses, not letting his opponent use the advantages of his opponent’s plane.
Working the process of E fighting means to use low G pulling maneuvers and banking your energy (converting speed to alt) until you bleed your opponent of his energy. At this time you carefully use your SA skills in watching his plane and the way it acts in relation to you and the maneuvers you exercise against him. At times the energy Fighter will be able to use Higher G maneuvers when he is sure he is out of the way of danger and has a substantial energy advantage to do so, most times these High G maneuvers will be in the vertical or near vertical plane of flight, to acquire and store more E to cash in on when needed. As the E fighter bleeds his victim down to a wobbling chunk of metal in the sky he is also scanning the skies of Aces High to keep a look out for any incoming threats. Incase there is, he has that saved up E to evade, extend and setup again, but if the skies appear clear he then uses his E advantage and pounces his prey. He has bled him to where the prey can not evade his onslaught of attacks now and the E fighter has scored another pelt, all by using patience, SA, and aggressiveness.
The Energy fighter does not give in to the opponent whether the opponent is a BnZ type or a Turn n Burn type, no sir. He makes the Boom and Zoomer bleed his E to where the BnZer weakens and then turns the tables to acquire the E advantage, He hides his energy well and gives the BnZer a false presentation making the BnZer think he has the advantage when he doesn’t, it is often too late for the BnZer once he realizes the tables have turned against him.
As for the Turn and Burn fighter pile-it, The E fighter will act as if he is going to turn with his victim, yet he does not commit to the full extent, he uses oblique turns and out of plane maneuvers to bleed the TnBer until he knows he has the substantial Energy advantage then he suckers the TnBer into thinking he can attain a guns solution and leaves him wollering nose high when he turns the tables and attacks.
Energy Plane: F4U FW190 P51 P38 Yak C205
Boom N Zoom Plane: P51 P47 Typhoon La7
just 1 view
-
Thanks for that TC, very informative, given me some food for thought there
-
Lol, wow TC, that was a great write-up
-
Great write-up TC. That should be a "stickey". Drop Skuzzy an e-mail and I'm sure he'd do that.
-
Thanks Hawco, Flit, Maxie for the comments.........
the BnZ theory is an edited version of how soda ( the AH trainer & Author of Soda's Plane comparisons website ) views BnZ...so I would say about 60% or so is his words with some additional comments/thoughts from me...... I could not take full credit for this, for Soda started it and typed most of it.
The E Fighting is my theory......
these 2 lil theorys are just a very small taste of the Aces High Training Manual, the Training staff have been working on, which hopefully will be released in full very soon......
-
i find that BnZ is coming from the stratoshpere and Boom your enemy then Zoom away:Rinse and Repeat
E fighting: Try to make your oppenent slow while you have stored up E with alt or Zoom advantage and make em slow then you BnZ them to death. Or rope the dope. Or use your E advantage to get behind them or use the vertical more to store even more E while they try to follow and stall out and fall prey to your guns.
-
Originally posted by SAS_KID
i find that BnZ is coming from the stratoshpere and Boom your enemy then Zoom away:Rinse and Repeat
IF a pilot/player is doing the BnZ tactic, he should realize anything over 3k to 4k above / above and away from the defender is a waste.
One can easily maintain a constant B n z attack and only extend no more than this distance, if one was to go further out or up on the extending, then he allows his prey to gain energy, or equalize the E states and can most times keep his attacker at bay, denying him a shot because the bnZ attacker is being sloppy with his attacks & extending....Boozer was an excellent Trainer back some 10+ years ago, and I remember it like yesterday how he went about teaching proper BnZ tactics.........you still will want to be agressive in your attacks, but keeping the safety net of SPEED in your pocket for re attaining alt and seperation for the reversal to make another fast speed slashing attack....
-
yup pretty much what TC said...
the 109's are the perfect example, cruddy in a turnfight, but in an energy fight, combining lots of ACM's, vertical maneuvers and the like, it will defeat spits, and that's how it works.
energy fighting is that style of fighting that you see from the decent pilots. they dont just turn and turn like a braindead vegetable, but link maneuvers, try to gain an energy advantage in order to make the fight easier for themselves. take for example infensus in his 109f4, as a turnfighter it sucks, but used in the vertical, used properly, it can kill about anything nowadays:aok
infact, the BEST advice i can give you hawco is to go to KoTH on friday, or the american one on the next saturday, most of the people in there are really great pilots, and the fastest way to learn how to E fight is to die in one:D
and if you'd like a little practise/tuition, find me in the TA, im usually in there now, instead of the MA, and i'll show you some things:)
-
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Working the process of E fighting means to use low G pulling maneuvers and banking your energy (converting speed to alt) until you bleed your opponent of his energy.
That's it in a nutshell. Anyone have Bullethead's old description of E-fighting?
- oldman
-
TC
Great writeup!!!
One thing though... A E fighter does NOT have to engage with an E advantage nor does he constantly need to maintain a E advantage...
In most cases, yes he does, in most cases, yes he should...
But there are cases when I do want a e disadvantage situation and put my self in it.
As you said constantly think attack and defense. But also counter attack.
I do use alot of reverses as part of my E fighting. I always do it as part of my BnZ defense but also as part of the E fight it self.
Example is when I fight 109G2+ in the Yak9U.
They do out climb me and eventually the will climb away from me if I dont kill them quickly. I then give them my six and try to lure them into a dive with me. I manouver much better in a dive when they do and actually use their E advantage against them.
When I do my reverse they cant follow and if they try they bleed tons and tons of E.
This allows me to turn the steaks and get into a firing solution.
Alot of pilots do overcommit when they see your six and when they see a E advantage. Over commitment is the ultimate tool for counter attacks.
Tex
-
yup, you can have a positive energy and a negative energy advantage. positive energy advantage is the most common, guy with more speed comes in from higher up, he has that positive energy advantage over the opponent that he can use.
negative energy would be using your low, slow position to force an overshoot and get an easy kill on a careless pilot :)
-
Hawco, don't forget that you can use E fighting tactics in just about any plane. If you find yourself in say a Spit vs Spit battle and the other guy just wants to turn and burn, you can use E fighting principles to win the day.
Other than, I don't have much to add. Excellent synopsis!
-
When I'm in the spit 9, I find myself using some of these E principles and didn't even realise I was, I try and avoid the turn after turn and will use my alt and speed to saty fast and rope em, or pull a high g nearly vertical loop/turn thing. Didn't even realise I was in the E thing, Great feedback guys, think I'll up a 109 or 51 etc and throw myself out there and see what happens in a different crate.
It's so dammned hard trying to leave a spit 9 in the Hanger lol :aok
Thanks all
Hawco
-
Originally posted by Hawco
When I'm in the spit 9, I find myself using some of these E principles and didn't even realise I was, I try and avoid the turn after turn and will use my alt and speed to saty fast and rope em, or pull a high g nearly vertical loop/turn thing. Didn't even realise I was in the E thing, Great feedback guys, think I'll up a 109 or 51 etc and throw myself out there and see what happens in a different crate.
It's so dammned hard trying to leave a spit 9 in the Hanger lol :aok
Thanks all
Hawco
LoL, I know that feeling..... hard to stay out of my Mk1 ;).
Energy fighting to me always has been a tactic, not a style. E-fighting I try to use difference in Energy states to my advantage and if they are to my DISadvantage, i try to change that. I basically do that in about every fight i get into, turn/stallfight or BnZ (even thoug the latter is very rare for me).
Will read that writeup tomorrow, when i can think a little more clearly :).
-
Hawco
A few key things when E fighting...
E Friendly Manouvers are all manouvers containing vertical movement like Immelman and High YoYo. If your enemy is flat turning use a High YoYo instead of turning with him in a sustained turn. The High YoYo will make your turn tighter while retaining more E. This means that you will get a good lead shot.
Angles and rolling.
When you are in a fight and exchanging vertically displaced manouvers with your enemy its important to constantly working the angles. The shot you will want out of a E fight is most often a deflection shot. Inorder to obtain it you will need to get a good angle on your enemy where he cant get a gun solution but you can.
From a new pilots perspective, at least talkin from my self when I was new, the hardes thing to master was rolls.
If plane X rolls better but turns worse then plane Y. Then plane X can actually outmanouver plane Y in a E fight.
The next thing Im gonna say might hurt your head a bit but I think its very important.
Multi dimensional fighting is not just about manouvers around the vertical and horizontal axis. Its also about manouvers around the depth axis.
1) Flat turns move you around the vertical axis.
2) Loops move you around the horizontal axis.
3) Rolls move you around the depth axis.
Good ACMs (Air Combat Manouvers) are not just a combination of 1 and 2 but a combination of all three.
Tex
-
Schatzi
E fighting is a way of life.. ;)
Tex
-
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Schatzi
E fighting is a way of life.. ;)
Tex
:lol
Unfortunatly, my main way of life seems to be getting-killed-the-quickest-way-possible :).
BTW, i havent forgotten your challenge and accept it :). Right now im a bit rusty and seem to have a hard time finding good fights in MA, but as soon as that black streak ends, ill see what the Val has in it..... (need the practice for KOTH anyway)
>S<
-
Here is a screenie of a manouver with displacement over the depth axis.
(http://83.227.73.189/ah/ACM/reverse.jpg)
This is one of my favorite reversal manouvers.
Tex
-
Originally posted by Schatzi
Right now im a bit rusty and seem to have a hard time finding good fights in MA,
Imho the best place for good fights and unrusting is AvA.
Tex
-
Originally posted by TexMurphy
Imho the best place for good fights and unrusting is AvA.
Tex
Unfortunatly this is not true during European (early) evenings......
-
Im in EU and I almost always fly in AvA these days... even when its just 4-6 players online in AvA its better fights then MA these days... sad but true.. :(
Tex
-
Well, im sorry i have to say that my AvA experiences are mostly Running, HO or noone there.
For duels I usually go to TA, DA or chan200.....
But lets head back to topic, the H&T forum isnt the place to flex the hijacking muscle.... :)
-
TC, I'd swap your plane list around some I think...
"Energy Plane: F4U FW190 P51 P38 Yak C205
Boom N Zoom Plane: P51 P47 Typhoon La7 "
The 190 isn't agile enough and lacks the acceleration needed to E-fight. It is probably the best example of a pure BnZ plane.
In 1943 the C205 is an E-fighter, by 1945 (the MA) it is kinda just an obsolete plane).
The La-7 is probably the best E-fighter we have in the game down low, it has wonderful handling and top notch acceleration.
The F4U, P-51, and P-47 lack the acceleration a pure E fighter needs, they are more BnZ planes (except for the F4U-4).
The Typhoon is an E-fighter in my opinion, but it is kind of borderline. Most people would probably use it best as a BnZ plane, it doesn't have that great a margin of performance to use in E-fighting.
Other than the La-7, the purest example of an E-fighter we have is the 109K.
-
Originally posted by Urchin
TC, I'd swap your plane list around some I think...
hehe yep , I was waiting to see who caught that typo, meant to put 109K4 in there and had brainfart with 190 typo....... ( Good eye , Urch )
as someone mentioned earlier, a person can E-fight with any plane type, some just excel better at it.......
I'd take the F4U series to E fight any day though over the La7.... 109's and P38s are fun too as well......
I class the P51 in both categorys, but my view of the Typh is it is better suited for BnZ......
TexMurphy, if you read closer, you will see where I mentioned the E-Fighter flys sometime at a disadvantage E state when intercepting a faster attacking plane ( does not say this directly, so most prob wouldn't pick up on it as being less E), I guess I could have added another page to it, and I still would be scraping the surface, ie Reversals, positive/negative, overshoots, rollouts, lift vectors etc.......
I personally would not consider flying at a Lower E state ( read Negative Energy Advantage ) as a way of straight out dogfighting, I would file that situation as defensive & counter attack maneuvering...... but things have evolved to where people do this as more of the norm these days, verses what would be a more ideal way of approaching a dogfight or encounter.
alot of good responses and info everybody, ~S~
-
Spits 8,9,14,16 are some of the best E fighters in the game. Lucky for us all most of their pilots don't realize it.
Bozon
-
Originally posted by Urchin
Boom N Zoom Plane: P47 "
somebody punish this man!!! :mad: :mad: :furious
-
Another plane that needs to be added to the E fighter list is the Ki84...
Imho the Frank is one of the most under rated and under used planes compared to its performance...
Tex
-
if the '84 was armed with 4-6 50cals i would fly it alot, as is its a liability to those who havnt learnt to shoot jap guns effectively.
-
It's when I read the technical aspects of all this that I wished I'd done better at school when I was younger and went into the Millitary as a Pilot and not ended up as a Paratrooper lol
I'm honestly amazed at the depth of knowledge that's on here,e states, positive and negative energy etc..
I've taken today as a "work from home day" and after I'm done watching Germany putting 4 or 5 past Costa Rica then I'm going to hunt one of you guys down in the TA and try and film some examples so I can get this fixed in my Head, I'm then going to force myself to leave the spit 9 in the Hanger ( for a short while) and take an "E" plane up into the MA ( Not the AvA as new tactics in a new plane = a quick and certain death in there) And from there see how it goes.
So hopefully, some kind soul will be tooling around willing to spend a short while helping out.
This is what makes AH such a great thing, there's always somehing to learn and always somebody willing to help out.
Hawco (gripped by World Cup fever and hoping that Engerland get hammered... sorry pooface, but I am Scottish after all lol)
-
Also want to look at rudders, when I put some rudder in, most of the time I end up in a minature spin for some reason? probably not going fast enough?
-
get this, my names hamish cameron and i live in, was born in, and support England. yes some of my family send me death threats during world cups, but usually emailing them copies of the Scottish teams results quiets any rebellions. :eek:
if you are forcing your aircraft to snap stall when using the rudder, you most likely are going too fast not too slow, and also over using the elevators. Obviously too slow will produce more dificult stalls to recover from but generally speaking most aircraft will be much more stable under harsh stick movements done at medium to low speeds than at high speeds.
these mini stalls could be the start of losing your forward momentum and shifting the planes angle of attack to the extent of you no longer flying nose first and at any speed, they are caused by one of two things.
1) pilot error; pulling too hard on the stick and combining hard rudder with full elevator deflection up. not using gentle flying movements more yanking the stick at either full deflection or centered. Having an inccorect flap setting for a certain speed of manouver is a very common pilot error, and huge creator of aircraft instability. poor experience of engine torque effects. and many more bad habits for flying.
2) incorrect stick calibration.
-
Hawco
First of all... tonights game will end 1-0... germany will score after 12 min and then booore Costa Rica to death...
Second... the Spits ARE good E fighters the problem with them is that they turn so well that you tend to get bad habbits from them, ie flat turn when ever you wana do something..
Infact the pre renovation Spit9 was the plane I first learned to E fight in.
You can go about it in two ways. You can stay in Spit9 and use what you have learned so far, how the plane stalls and how the guns aim and work on not submitting to the bad habbits.
Or you can throw everything out the window and grab a 109G2. Problem with this is that you will have to learn to aim german guns at the same time as you which can be a distraction.
I dont see any other plane which a more suited beginer E fighter then the Spit, especially not one which fires 50cals or 20mm Hispano´s (which are very similar in aim).
Tex
-
Originally posted by bozon
Spits 8,9,14,16 are some of the best E fighters in the game. Lucky for us all most of their pilots don't realize it.
Bozon
The Spitfires are good E-fighters, as is the Ki-84, but it is a different kind of E-fighting (I consider it to the be most fun, personally). To E fight in a Spit or Ki-84, you basically get the fight slow, then use slow speed manueverability and climb rate to gain an E advantage over your opponent, convert that to a positional advantage and then kill your opponent.
A more 'typical' E-fighter (as in the La-7 or 109) will come in with an energy advantage (either alt advantage or speed advantage or both), convert that to a positional advantage, then kill the opponent.
A BnZ approach is somewhat different - typically a BnZ pilot will begin with an energy and/or speed advantage, but the emphasis is more on maintaining that advantage, not so much on working for a "killing blow" as it were. This is why people speak of BnZ "passes". The BnZ pilot drops down from his perch, makes a firing pass (or not, depending on how aggressive he is), then zooms back above his opponent. That constitutes one pass.
-
Been in the 109 for most of the day, got killed, get kills, got killed etc, but you know what? I'm having a blast ! The big cannon is hard to aim, but if you get in close then you normally get a few hits, been working on low g manouvers while under pressure from other aircraft, some I've been succesful and others I've had my clock cleaned. I'll be in the TA tomorrow and hopefully see one of you guys in there and then I can get to work learning energy etc.
thanks everyone
Hawco
-
Hawco
Propably the most important sequence of a fight is the first sequence, the merge and the opening manouver.
This thread covers it really well... http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175388
You should read it.
Tex
-
Some really good points there on the merge, seems like the more I read, the less I know....
-
Originally posted by Hawco
Some really good points there on the merge, seems like the more I read, the less I know....
A simple point to remember; win the merge and 90% of the time you'll win the fight.
However, winning the merge depends upon exploiting your advantage or exploiting the enemy's weakness.
Beyond that, the single most important thing you must know is the full capabilities of every aircraft.
Which is why I advocate flying every aircraft in the plane set, both online and offline to determine those capabilities. Once you have this data base stored in your mind, you can concentrate on what you need to do to force the other guy to fly against your aircraft's strengths, while exploiting the enemy's weaknesses.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Debrief of fight Spit8 vs Yak9U.
First I do wana mention the merge. You did give up vertical separation without really pushing for it. (the linked merge thread).
When your heading to merge and your enemy tries to go under you, you go even lower. This means that if you have to scrape the trees with your behind, then you scrape the trees.
Instead of trying to go lower then me I think iirc you tried a roll. This can be a decent move if you have a extreamly lethal snapshot. But its not a good move since only way you can go is a split S or roll back and then go immelman. IF I remember it right you rolled then realized it was a bad move and rolled back to make a immelman.
Though you had good E coming into the fight and with the next series of vertical manouvers you sustained the E advantage and I couldnt really get in on you.
The interesting part about this bit of the fight was that it really was a "BnZ pilots transition to E fighting". It showed that you where trying to be gentle on your manouvers inorder to not pull to hard, sustain your E advantage while not BnZing.
This is good but you need to be more agressive. Had you been more agressive you would have had me there. This is the hardest thing in the begining, how hard can I commit without loosing my E advantage?
Also your manouvers where mostly immelmans/loops or high yoyos. While this is good you really neeed to start using the roll. By adding more roll into your manouvers you would have found the angles you needed to get in on me.
Im not sure which in this catch 22 is the real cause of the problem. If its the insecurity how hard to push or if its the fact that your ACMs might need more work.
Its not really that you go either offensive or defensive in a E fight. Its rather that you are offensive and defensive at the same time. When your riding that thin line and pushing the plane to its limmit then your pushing the envelope. You want to find the envelope of the plane inorder to know how hard you can push it.
The spit you can push much harder and be much more agressive in.
Anyways back to the fight. Since I couldnt get up to you I opted to dive out. First time you didnt take that bait.
Always be causious when a pilot dives out of a E fight. I really dont recommend diving after him because he will either a) try to force a overshoot or b) try to equate the E situation.
He can force an overshoot with either going into a barrell roll or a scissor.
He can equate the energy state by either reversing on you and luring you to follow him or going into a scissor. If he tries to reverse you will be on chasing him with alot of confidence, suddenly he does his move and you react to it. Energy fighting is about flying PROACTIVE not REACTIVE. When you react to his movement your gonna pull more Gs then he is and since we are talking a dive situation you can burn tons of E. This can swing the advantage.
As you see the scissor can force you to both overshoot and loose your advantage. Not something you wana do.
If you dont dive after him well then you have your E advantage in tact and you dont have a shot on him. Big deal he is still under your controll.
I only recommend to dive after a enemy if you are in a plane that handles better in dive. For example if a 109 dives from you then you might consider it, if a Ki84 dives from you then go for it. Cut your throttle so you dont overcommit and if you see him starting to do wiered roll stuff then climb out of the situation.
At the end you did get more agressive but I think that was because you got stressed since you had to go. I dont see much point in discussing that part since it was a rushed fight.
If you compare the film you taped from this fight with the film posted here below you will see what Im saying when Im saying more agressive and look for angles by applying roll.
http://83.227.73.189/ah/films/film73.ahf
But as I said... your quite close to getting there... Its just abuot finding the right level of agressivness and working the angles and rolls...
Good fights
Tex
-
thanks for that Tex, that was very informative, I know what i want to do and now it's just a case of learning it till it's second nature.
I'll work on rolling a lot more and using that when engaged to, because I've never really practised it, i'm a bit wary of introducing it and dying a quick death lol.
so rolls is the thing for me now,Again thanks for taking the time like you did Tex and I really appreciate that.
Hawco:aok