Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Thrax on October 23, 2000, 05:31:00 AM
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I'm sorry but to us Europeans you've got two choices:
Bush : A right wing hippocryte of epic proportions.
Gore: A right wing hippocryte of epic proportions.
Lucky you... ;(
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Long live the Queen ~~
And don't forget your wigs at the next parliment meeting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler
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LOL Eagler.
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Well, Thrax, that's pretty much how I see it as well. Democracy in the US is definitely not a grass root thing, and won't be for a lot of years. Hasn't been for a lot of years.
But, it does have its advantages to abstract over the people as a whole; efficiency. The
I still think Duma would make a better president than either of the two.
Have The Muppets in the Senate, and I'll move to the US NOW.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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A choice between the lesser of two evils. When voting, that is pretty much the way it is here, at all levels of the government.
I guess I have gotten pretty pessimistic about our politicians.
In another post I made about why anyone would consider Gore, as he is such a blatant liar, a response to that was along the lines of "he seems to have a better grip on the issues".
This truely bothered me. How can you know if he has a grip on anything? The lies are so blatant. I don't think the tha man knows the difference between truth or fiction.
Politicians appear to rely heavily on people only hearing what they want to hear and disregarding the rest. Our country appears to have accepted the fact that politicians will not be honest.
Of course, broaching this topic only causes people to respond, "well, that's the way it is, and there is nothing we can do about it." I have heard this response enough to know it is pointless to talk about the overall political situation, as it pertains to the quality of the people we are voting for.
In retrospect, I probably should have just kept my mouth shut. I know better than to try to talk about politics with anyone. I am honest, ethical, and treat people with respect. It was the way I was raised. My problem is not being able to get past applying those qualities as a measurement of the people I chose to associate with.
I am faced with a lose-lose proposition. I can vote for the lesser of 2 evils, or not vote at all. I, like so many others, cannot win in this scenario.
Lucky us......indeed. We have no one to blame but ourselves for allowing this situation to continue unabated.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Long live the Queen
Hehehhee. Gimmie a harmless old lady to some sharp git in a suit on Capitol hill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
America needs Leaders who give a toejam about the contry (Truman, Rosavelt et all..) rather than only being worried about their self image (Gore, Bush, Clinton, Bush #1 etc..)
Come to think of it, I think we all need leaders from the old school....except the German and Italian ones... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gimmie Churchill over Blair any day.
Thrax
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Skuzzy:
"hearing what they want to hear and disregarding the rest"
Simon & Garfunkle, "The Boxer", @ 1968 in "The Graduate" soundtrack, right?
You're right, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Relax....the Nation has survived many poor Presidents....the latest is just another example.
We'll survive the next four years as well because when there truly is a challenge, the people rise above their politicians.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Thrax:
I'm sorry but to us Europeans you've got two choices:
Bush : A right wing hippocryte of epic proportions.
Gore: A right wing hippocryte of epic proportions.
Lucky you... ;(
I had 7 candidates for president on my ballot in Oregon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) OK, only two of them have a chance for winning this year, but perhaps votes for them this year will get their parties more steam in the coming years, and end this 2 party nonsense.
My vote...John Hagelin. Was actually going to vote for George W, but couldn't stomach any pro-lifer.
SOB
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At least he knows he's lying.
Yup, Amurrican politics are pretty much like Yer-a-peein' ones: no real choice, just a sham to perpetuate the status quo.
It is however, odd, how many of the world crises out there feature such obnoxious jockeying for position around US presidential election time.
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SOB< with all due respect, the media has "had' you again, GW is not the proverbial 'pro-lifer' that the media has made him out to be, he is 'anti-3rd semester', which is, he believes a fetus is a child at age 6 months and up within the womb, and considering I've seen many of these babies (Sis-in-law works in pediatric unit), they are indeed babies, and not 'fetuses' like the press would like you to believe. GW is against aborting near-full term pregancies.
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It's getting hard to tell who is for what...
Gore is now pro guns while Bush is semi pro choice. Seems like they tell whoever they are standing in front of at the time what they want to hear. Definitely closer to the center on both candidates, at least until they are elected (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
One important item not talked about much is the Senate and House of Representatives. If they go Democratic majority and Al wins .. hold on to your wallet!
Eagler
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Originally posted by Eagler:
It's getting hard to tell who is for what...
Gore is now pro guns while Bush is semi pro choice. Seems like they tell whoever they are standing in front of at the time what they want to hear. Definitely closer to the center on both candidates, at least until they are elected (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
One important item not talked about much is the Senate and House of Representatives. If they go Democratic majority and Al wins .. hold on to your wallet!
Eagler
Eagler,
Holding wallet will do no good. They will take it before it ever gets to your wallet.
Then the "kinder gentler" IRS will take the remainder.
Mav
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Would support - but not pursue - a pro-life Amendment
Bush has said he is opposed to abortion and would support a constitutional amendment making the procedure illegal - except in cases of rape, incest and when the woman’s life is jeopardy. But he also says Americans don’t support the measure, thus there is no need to pursue it. But he would not require his Supreme Court nominees to pass an anti-abortion ‘litmus test.
Associated Press 6/14/99
It's this quote that got me. I'm glad to see he wouldn't pursue it, but I still don't like the fact that he would approve it...regardless of how likely or unlikely it is that congress would pass an amendment like this. Is it a mis-quote?
This is strait from his web site...
Pro life with exceptions for rape, incest and life of the mother
Set the goal that all children should be welcomed in life and protected by law
Supports parental notification, banning use of taxpayer funds for abortion, and banning partial birth abortion
Supports efforts to increase adoptions
Opposes doctor assisted suicide, believes the role of a doctor is to relieve pain and suffering, not to end life
Make permanent the $5,000 adoption tax credit
I actually agree with everything above, except for the Pro-life and the doctor assisted suicide (but that's a different issue). I don't think abortion is the right thing to do, but it's not my decision to make for other people...and I think it would be a huge mistake for it to be outlawed.
In any case, I'm still happy voting for an independant this year, particularly one I agree with on about as many things as Bush. This rediculous exclusion of independants from national debates is a farse. I just hope voting independant helps to get some more variety in coming elections.
SOB
[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 10-23-2000).]
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I normally don't get involved in political discussions, but I'm going to this time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
First of all the whole concept of a tax surplus bothers me. Basically what this means is that you have been overtaxed in the first place. Gore changes his promises every day it seems, but what I gather is that he wants to spend the majority of this surplus on bigger government and more programs. Bush wants to give it back. IMO Gore is saying "The US government knows better than you how to spend your money." This brought to you by the same people as the $100 ashtray and the $1000 toilet.
Secondly, if we institute new programs, how will we feel if that projected surplus ends up going up in smoke. Where will the money now come from? I'll give you 1 guess...
Honestly I don't think the president really has the power to do all of the things either candidate claims. The presidents REAL power is that he appoints the supreme court justices. Whoever becomes our next president will appoint 3 justices I believe. You can bet this will have an impact.
Personally I believe Gore is too dishonest to know what exactly what he wants to do. I can't vote for someone that changes their rhetoric to match that of the latest poll stats.
SOB, what do you think of that phone book sized booklet we got this year?!? The thing comes in two parts and is probably 200 pages thick or more!
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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Reports I've heard is his political stance isn't that stern, its there for the 'Bible Belt' folks, you know, stuff they believe in but no way could get passed into law once in office, he could get the partial birth abortion law in, but to turn Roe vs Wade around would (excuse the pun) almost take an act of God. (Supreme court)
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I'm just curious. Why is it that 90% of AH partcipants are Republicans?
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Originally posted by bloom25:
SOB, what do you think of that phone book sized booklet we got this year?!? The thing comes in two parts and is probably 200 pages thick or more!
Now THAT is some serious reading. Got the first copy and thought "damn, that thing is huge", then I realized it was part 1 of 2! I think this is the Oregon "how good of a citizen are you?" test...and I think I'm gonna fail miserably! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by Igloo:
I'm just curious. Why is it that 90% of AH participants are Republicans?
Because the good guys are Republicans (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Really - I think it just goes with the mindset. Same way that 90% of homosexuals and 80% African Americans are Democrats. Not trying to slam any particular group, just stating the facts.
Eagler
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I htink that a majority of the AH customer base is Republican for two reasons:
1. there are more Republicans (this is why they have a majority in the House and Senate).
2. Republicans typically have greater disposable income to spend on things like Aces High, hence a greater proportion of Republicans.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Thrax:
Long live the Queen
Hehehhee. Gimmie a harmless old lady to some sharp git in a suit on Capitol hill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Thrax
Thrax...are you kidding??....hehe, look at that family she spawned...not sure harmless is the right word..lol!
Cobra
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The reasons the candidates in the US seem similar in many respects is because the people have very similar wants and needs. If the candidates were so far apart in ideology, that would suggest a country with a population polarized at extreme ends of the spectrum. Of course there are differences between the current crop of candidates, but looking at the big picture, the points are quite moot.
Anyhow it doesn't matter much, like the US or not, they have the greatest system of politics and their constitution is one of the greatest works of history. Their system of checks and balances, popular representation as well as regional representation guarantees a limitation of the effects of poor leadership.
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Republicans are also more interested in violent toys and WARRRRS/patriotism (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Interesting observation, Igloo. I don't know if most of us actually are Conservative, but its my impression that most of the posters are.
I always assumed that the common thread among AH, and probably WB, and "Conservatism" has to do with our appreciation of history and the equipment of war which might be attracting people with "hawkish", conservative points of view.
I'm sure most of us are probably more educated than the average person, and in a higher income bracket as well. That could explain it.
Like Eagler fearlessly stated, its my impression also that many homosexuals and African Americans are Democrats, and I'm sure that is because of the way the Democratic party throws money and special promises at these groups while simultaneously holding them in contempt.
However, I do personally know some local gays and blacks that are staunch conservatives, which is interesting...
When you talk to these people, you find that they are truly enlightened - and very effective in communicating the conservative point of view simply because they have gone through the process of looking deeper than the average person, past the facade, into the jaundiced eye of liberalism, and found the contempt and defeatism there. The most outspoken conservatives from these groups are black businessmen and gay professionals. That tells you something.
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The most outspoken conservatives from these groups are black businessmen and gay professionals. That tells you something.
Uncle Tom Syndrome....
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Hehheh, the individuals of whom I speak would take you to task on that issue in a heartbeat, Thrax.
It shouldn't be so difficult to visualize a successful minority businessman who knows what is best for him and his community...
...and surely you aren't ingnoring those "other" politically evolved individuals?
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Originally posted by Thrax:
The most outspoken conservatives from these groups are black businessmen and gay professionals. That tells you something.
Uncle Tom Syndrome....
I think it displays just the opposite, Thrax. The are the minority within their own group, intelligent enough to see through the smoke and mirrors of the Democratic rhetoric.
Eagler
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Oh, I get it now, Thrax must be part of that fabled "liberal media", right Thraxy? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I think it has more to do with the genere. War would proabably attract more republicans because some see it as a way to express patriotism. They have most likely grown up in a pro-gun, grass roots, don't mess with us enviornment.
BTW, isn't there a gay republican? Didn't he speak at the Republican Convention and all the other "cowboys" there turned away, bowed their head and said a prayer for him? That's why I don't like the Rebublican mindset.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Originally posted by Igloo:
I think it has more to do with the genere. War would proabably attract more republicans because some see it as a way to express patriotism. They have most likely grown up in a pro-gun, grass roots, don't mess with us enviornment.
BTW, isn't there a gay republican? Didn't he speak at the Republican Convention and all the other "cowboys" there turned away, bowed their head and said a prayer for him? That's why I don't like the Rebublican mindset.
Once again the "open mind" has spoken. All bow down to his vaunted baseless opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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How is that closeminded, or a baseless opinion?
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Igloo,
I suppose it never occurred to you that not all Republicans are the same. You have more than once used emotionally charged words and rhetoric based on opinion instead of facts in your arguments. When someone disagree's with you they find themselves being called names. I do not appreciate your generalizations.
Mav
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 10-25-2000).]
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Funny how you didn't complain at all the generalisations about the Democrats.
I like your double standards......
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Igloo, I think you are a latent Conservative, struggling within yourself, and ineffectually batting at the pinata of Conservativism. You desperately want all those goodies within, but you are afraid.
Don't be a closet conservative. Come out, come out, we are waiting for you....... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Wednesday October 25 6:16 AM ET
Anti-Israel Group Supports Clinton
NEW YORK (AP) - A U.S. Muslim group whose leader supports the Palestinians' right to use armed force against Israel raised $50,000 for Hillary Rodham Clinton (news - web sites)'s Senate campaign, the New York Daily News reported Wednesday.
The American Muslim Alliance said it collected the money June 13 at a $500-a-ticket Boston fund-raiser at which Clinton was presented with a plaque honoring her human rights efforts.
Clinton's campaign confirms she attended the event but claims the alliance was not the sponsor, the newspaper reported.
Yeah, sure I believe them. Is there any group they will not take money from?
Eagler
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I said: "because some[/i] see it as a way to express patriotism". Not all, some.
It's pretty hard not to generalise about a group of people, be it republicans or democrats, when that group of people come together under a commmon mindset. It is then obvious that if this group comes together under a common mindset, there is general, common link between them. Otherwise, they would not called Republicans, or Democrats. They would be classified by name.
I'm unaware of calling anyone names...
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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whose leader supports the Palestinians' right to use armed force against Israel
When your people are being shot and killed by the hundereds by a foriegn army in your own land, you would feel the same.
Put yourself in Palestinian shoes for just one moment.
Both sides are as equally wrong, but one side has lost over 130 people, mostly childern.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Originally posted by Igloo:
Both sides are as equally wrong, but one side has lost over 130 people, mostly children.
Yes, I agree, both sides have done wrong, not sure if they are equally wrong though. As for the children dying, it's not that the Israelis are kicking down door and machine gunning kids or going into school yards. These kids are throwing stones and gas bombs at people with automatic weapons! I wonder what kind of parent would tell their child to do something like that. It makes me wonder about the intelligence of the nation as a whole and it's leader who doesn't see the uselessness of such action and speak out against it. I think they want to die, to possibly give their life meaning. To stir up an emotional response. I guess you forget these are the same ones who strap bombs on and see now many women and children they can take out at a market or on a bus.
As I've stated before, I think if they spent the time they waste fighting an unwinnable war and used it to show the world they were civil, they get more respect and support from other countries. First step would be to elect a leader who was not a terrorist. There isn't the bleeding heart liberal faction in Israel like there is in the states. They could possibly martyr themselves into victory if they were up against the U.S. but not Israel. They don't have the tolerance for it.
Eagler
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Ouch! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What a nice testament to United States of America.
People thousands of miles away criticize our political systems and our politicians. While we at home here in the United States of American do the same.
Only....
We don't care nearly so much about their political systems or their politicians. as they do about ours.
Why is that?
Mino
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Eagler, have you ever visted an Islamic nation? I've worked in one. Things are not as simple as you believe them to be. The people there are not as dumb as you believe them to be. They are passionate, caring people who stand for what they believe in. A little like those you now call your "Founding Fathers". Their lives have meaning, to say they are doing this to give their lives meaning implies you don't believe they already do. Once again, this is indicative of living in a society that does not allow you to comprehend the world other human beings are living in.
How many childern, ages 14-17 fought against Britian in the gaining of your independence? They believe they are fighting for their very survival as a nation, and as a people. That is a serious motive. "They", as you say, are not the ones strapping bombs to their chests. Those are only a few misguided minorities. The Israeli's are occuping their land, and they believe they have the right to fight against that. I'm sure you would too.
This is much more than simply an uneducated Arab nation not controling itself and fighting for the sake of fighting as you believe. You're allowing the sterotypes to control your view of a people very different than you believe them to be.
The Israeli's have to pull out. The Palestians have to let them. Who does what first? It's up to the both of them.
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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York (http://www.trueorigins.net/411rcaf)
"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]
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Igloo, I hear ya.
But if you play with fire and you get burned, don't squealing whine.
Take the consequences of your actions.
If you're 25 and you attack me and I have a gun and shoot you dead, it's your own stupid fault.
If you're 12 and the same happens, it ain't my fault either.
The risk of dying in the clashes is relatively low, so they all take their chances. What pisses me off is the Palestinians using the kids in emotional appeals claiming the Israeli soldiers shoot innocent kids.
There ain't no innocent kids in a mob.
These guys know how the Israels will react - with rubber coated bullets that will kill if they hit the wrong place of yer body.
So, stop the "child killing Israeli" moaning roadkill (not aimed at you Igloo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)), and call it what it is - for the Palestinians point of view, casualties of war, and from the Israeli's point of view, regrettable deaths in a violent mob.
If the Israelis wanted to kill off the Palestinians, they wouldn't use rubber coated bullets for one. And they'd use cluster bombs, snipers, tanks and whatnot. They're responding like they always had, but now the clashes are much bigger, so, more casualties.
I am not condoning the way the Israelis are handling this - it's definitely not right. All I am saying is both sides know what they're getting themselves into, so should bloody well also accept the consequences.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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Santa, feeeeeeeeeel the DARK SIDE!
Personal Responsibility!
Personal Accountability!
The DARK SIDE is strong in you, young Jedi!
Soon you will cross over to the Conservatives!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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There ain't no innocent kids in a mob.
Do you think they have a realistic concept of right and wrong? Do you think they really understand the history of Israel, Palastine, the 1946 war etc...
No, they've been encouraged by their local media and had the 'blessing' of their parents to go throw stones at the 'Bad Guys'.
Would America had reacted with the same indifference if the British Army had shot 200 Irish Catholics in 3 weeks during the troubles here? And trust me, kids threw stones there too. And as I have served in N Ireland in a capacity during those dark days, I can vouch that most of those kids didn't really have a clue.
Sorry, but some of the attitudes I've seen on this BBS make me sick.
Just saw this
with rubber coated bullets that will kill if they hit the wrong place of yer body.
Do you actually have a clue what is going on there? If they were just using rubber bullets that wouldnt be so bad. Tanks, Gunships and snipers. Read the damn news before spouting off crap.
[This message has been edited by Thrax (edited 10-27-2000).]
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What do you expect them to do when a palestinian mob starts shooting ak47's into a neighborhood? They tried to do anything they could to appease arifat last summer and he still wouldn;t sign a peace deal.
I have alot of Arab and Iranian friends in Houston, 4 of which are from Lebanon(Palestinians) While they are good friends I can honestly say that I have never seen as much hatetred of another religeon/race than they have towards the Jews. The Palestinians HATE the Jews period. Their leaders won't rest until Isreal is gone, that's in their freakin charter and they won't remove it!
Isreal has been acting rather restrained if you ask me. What do you think the Russians would do if a mov of Chechnyan's attacked a neighborhood in Moscow? Hell look what America did to the branch davidians and they never even left ther compound. Those palestinian "kids" would do a whole lot better for themselves if they'd go to school or try and find work rather than throw rocks and shoot at Isreal.
Udie
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Toad:
Aaagh, you are not my father! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) LOL
Thrax, I probably watch more news than you do.
I get up at 6am in the morning, flip between CNN and BBC. Then in the breaks at the college, I browse their web sites.
When I get home, I check news, check AH bb, check cnn.com. Have either Discovery Channel or BBC on TV.
I know what's going on.
And, believe me, they use *rubber coated steel bullets* when they fire at a mob. They don't need snipers for that; would be far more effective to just machine gun the whole bunch.
Have they used tanks and helicopters on the mob?
If you've checked the news, you'd know this isn't so. if you know anything about employment of tanks and helis, you know why they are there.
As far as the kids go; if they're old enough to throw rocks at Israelis, they are old enoough to understand that rocks can hurt people. If they're smart enough to get that, they should be able to conclude that *bullets* will hurt more.
And even a 7 year old can figure out the casual relationship between molotov cocktail and rubber bullet response.
I'm sorry if this sounds very insensitive, but the world can be a toejamty place. If one blames everything else for misfortunes, one will get nowhere.
Where does parental responsibility come in? Don't you think you got a responsibility to keep your kids out of a mob that say throws stones at the police?
If you as an adult wanna fight for what you believe; fine. If you raise your kids and send them out while still kids and they get hurt, their blood is on YOUR hands as much as on the enemies. You never gave them an alternative.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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The war is in 1948, btw. Not '46.
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If you raise your kids and send them out while still kids and they get hurt, their blood is on YOUR hands as much as on the enemies. You never gave them an alternative.
Two wrongs make a right huh?
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Back on topic.
I have never been a Republican or a Democrat but after the last eight years with Clinton/Gore all I can say is enough is enough.
I know that most Politicians are liars but these guys take it to a new level.
I do not care for either Presidential candidate but I think I would rather take a chance on someone new like Bush over someone I know I cannot trust like Gore.
At least Bush has not sold out his country..Yet.
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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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But funnay.