Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: TDeacon on June 08, 2006, 08:18:30 PM
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Anyone interested flight model issues?
If so, you may want to look at my bug report for 2.08-2, and hopefully someone will be inspired to try duplicate my measurements.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179670
If you do, I assume you will note the jump in turn radius which the P-51s show at 4/5 flaps. Note that the turn performance shown is not the maximum, because the planes were turned at just short of the speed where the shuddering effect occurs. The relative turn performance is what matters here. The bug seems to manifest itself as a jump in turn radius at 4/5 flaps, in one plane only (so far).
Spot checks in 2.08-2, and measurements of other planes in 2.07 and 2.08-1 seems to show that other planes (such as F4U and Bf-109) don't show this bug (fortunately). I am not claiming that real planes should be maneuvered with full flaps; I am not a pilot. However, since they currently are so maneuvered in AH, I think that we should treat this aspect of the flight model consistently for all planes, unless we have evidence to the contrary.
If anyone duplicates this data, or if anyone finds a similar issue for another plane, please post in this thread.
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"However, since they currently are so maneuvered in AH, I think that we should treat this aspect of the flight model consistently for all planes, unless we have evidence to the contrary. "
Notice that every plane has a different wing and every plane have a different kind of flaps, thus every plane behave differently with flaps deployed.
The flight behaviour when flaps deployed cannot be consistent for every plane. ;)
Not saying that they could not be broken, though.
-C+
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Pyro thinks they're not broken, per his post to my bug report thread.
I am going to do a complete re-install of 2.08-2 and re-measure.
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Turn radius of the pony seems fine to me.I was scissoring a spit16 last evening with one.However the 109's will still handle it just fine,below 200 mph the 109 seems to be able to get around on it in a tight right hand corner,but it does require agressive throttle management.I dont normally fly ponies but I fight alot of them and mostly in 109's.Since the last FM changes it seems to do a little better.
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I just retested, and I agree that it seems to have been fixed. I think I was tired last night and timed 6 cycles as 5 (...).
Thanks to HTC for paying attention to this issue, as always.
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Flaps are modeled silly in AH. Sorry but this is how i see it.
All flaps auto retract if you increase speed. This should only be present in two three aircraft types. The fact that only American planes have combat flaps is again wrong. They may not have been named "combat flaps", but other planes too could select 4-10 degrees of flaps (or anything in between), that could be used in combat.
Check the quote in the" Planes, Vehicles,Boats" area on game info/FW-190 A8:
Quote:
"I went around for a while with a Mustang, who had me by the neck. In such cases we often flew in a corkscrew - we spiraled in the sky in the tightest possible circle, with flaps half or quater-extended. A good soul in the form of a German fighter pilot helped me by shooting the Mustang off my tail. Its pilot had not noticed that we had become three - tough luck!
Unteroffizier Heinz Gehrke, JG 26 - 5 victories"
/Quote
On most planes you can only deploy flaps at the speed written in flight manuals for LANDING SPEED! This is a huge mistake. If a flap can take an amount of pressure at 60 degrees deflection and 175 mph, it take a lot more speed to create the same force at let's say 10 degrees deflection.
This is unacceptable for a game that wants to be a Simulation.
Some people say that it may be too much work to get them right and that's why they are how they are.
I'd say if you can model the amount of fuel, ammo , wing loading , skins for every individual aircraft, then you should also try to model the flaps how they should be.
There are not that many planes in AH and many are just subvariants of the same plane. There should be enough info out there to get them right.
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SYSTEM: A WHNE HAS BEEN RECORDED.
Bronk
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:lol
But can you say that i am wrong?;)
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
Quote:
"I went around for a while with a Mustang, who had me by the neck. In such cases we often flew in a corkscrew - we spiraled in the sky in the tightest possible circle, with flaps half or quater-extended. A good soul in the form of a German fighter pilot helped me by shooting the Mustang off my tail. Its pilot had not noticed that we had become three - tough luck!
Unteroffizier Heinz Gehrke, JG 26 - 5 victories"
/Quote
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Where is there a mention of speed ? OHH there is none. So unless you were there and can tell us how fast they were going STOP WHINEING.
Also notice how he states shooting the stang off HIS TAIL. So if they were spiraling down and the mustang must have been gaining in the turn. Unless "shooting the Mustang off my tail." means something different.
Bronk
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All flaps auto retract if you increase speed. This should only be present in two three aircraft types.
This is a "situational realism over technical realism" issue.
Real life pilots flew under strict discipline in managing their aircraft, and use of flaps during combat were grossly uncommon. They were either utilized by a relatively handful of experienced pilots (compared to the many more common pilots in service of all WW2 participants), or a desparate last measure in dangerous situations, which even in that case usually had to do with pulling the plane out of a dangerous dive or stabilizing the plane near the verge of critical stall.
People will dig up all kinds of anecdotes concerning how their favorite pilot or favorite combat squadron used flaps extensively, but the reality is every bit of such action was usually against the official doctrine laid out by the high command. Remember, the high command had much more to think about than satisfying the combat lust of one skilled pilot, or one 'special' squadron. Average people fight the war, not just a handful of vets - and when it comes to keeping the average guys alive, simple and direct method of control comes in more important than the fancy maneuvering and gadget fiddling.
That being said, game pilots do not fear death nor damage to their planes. They do crazy stuff which in real life would be highly unsanctioned and potentially dangerous or suicidal. They push the plane to dangerous situations with all kinds of unorthodox - or 'gamey', if you will - methods for the sole purpose of winning the fight. The trend is apparent and undeniable. People use devices in ways that are unsanctioned in real lfie, which as a result, distances the reality of the game from reality of actual combat.
Take for example, the excellent WW2 flight sim IL2/FB.
It's flap fest over there. Every plane can deploy flaps at quite high speeds - which as a result, has led to a bizzare game reality in which the use of flaps has become almost a 'standard' combat technique, which in real life, clearly was not. Dangers of overshooting the target? Pull back throttle, kick rudder, and just dump flaps instantly. Who care if they get jammed - as long as you lose enough speed, and shoot down your target, you can always return home. Or if it fails? Then you get shot down. Again, who cares? It's not as if you really die. Dump flaps, get the gears out at 500km/h - as long as you slow down enough before they are fully deployed, you're fine.
Or, take the example of the manual pitch control system the Luftwaffe planes have in IL2/FB. In real life the override settings were used only under very special emergencies. However, in the game, people have abused it to push the RPM over normal limitations and just under the 'breaking point' - which in effect, has become a "second WEP" for the LW fighters. No real life pilot would ever think of managing his prop pitch system that way - and yet in IL2/FB, it's a "standard technique" for 109 and 190 pilots. Need the extra engine power? Switch on the MW-50 and override auto prop-pitch control, push the RPM to dweeby levels and you plane will soar.
The problem?
IL2/FB developers have fallen under the spell of 'technical realism'; 'simulate every plane function to the full, and the game will be more realistic and immersive.
Well, the reality is just the opposite - simulate all the plane functions, and the gamers will simply pull it out of its normal context and find ways to abuse it. It's a game. People do that.
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HTC's approach on the flaps is different. Sure - the flight manuals will usually list conservative figures for limits of their planes. There are always safety margins to such stuff. But then again, who's gonna determine the 'absolute limit'? A randomizer? Or, if you were an average combat pilot fighting in the war, what are the odds that you will gladly use flaps at speeds that aren't allowed in your manual? After all, in real life, you have a life to lose.
People who complain about the auto flap retraction do so at a certain, repetitive manner on a very specific occasion. They rely on the flaps to tighten their plane's turn, usually to gain a gun solution or follow the enemy's defensive maneuver to its last.
The thing is, its usually when they try to follow an enemy plane that clearly turns better or is much lighter and nimble than one's own, they meet this problem. They push it to the limit - sometimes it works, sometimes it fails. And when it fails, they come to the boards complaining about how the auto-retraction has ruined their flight.
Take for example, the classic argument of some P-38 pilots. They argue that the P-38 is somehow the only special plane that relies so much on the flaps. They get into a tight loop contest against a lighter plane, try to tighten the loop during the downward section of the loop maneuver at low altitudes, realize that their speed is gaining too fast, and the flap retracts, the plane stalls out and augers.
Frankly, it's a load of bullshi* if you ask me. In real life, in that situation, no real life pilot would retract their flaps in the face of losing control of their plane and crashing to the ground. However, again, in real life, ithey wouldn't have gotten into that situation in the first place.
It's a no brainer - if the enemy does something that seems too dangerous to follow, then you go around it, not try to follow every move like a magnet. But then again, these guys are so confident about their skills and their planes that they just have to pit a 17,000lbs plane against something half its weight and turn radius. When it works, it feels great no doubt. But when it fails, then you're dead, like any pilot in any plane. They took the risk when they entered the tight chase - they failed in managing their own plane, and then they start blaming the system for it.
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In other words, what the 'get rid of auto-retraction' guys want, is simple.
They don't care if the flaps get damaged and jammed stuck. Be it a tight loop or a tight turn, they will just dump flaps out and keep it there. Who cares if the plane is damaged? At least if the flaps don't retract but gets jammed, the desired flap effect will stay, and they will still get to shoot down the enemy plane, regardless of what kind of damage their plane might take or not.
There you have it - no better explanation to the term "gamey" or "dweeby". The reason why some people want to get rid of auto retraction, is exactly what the auto retraction is trying to prevent.
Situational realism must rule over tech realism.
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Then what about the auto retract speed limit? Do you say that is ok to have flaps retract at the limit of the LANDING FLAPS even if is in take off position?
We have few flaps positions for all planes. There should be a different speed limit for all positions as in a real plane. At 200m/h is not the same pressure on the flaps at 10 degrees and at 60 degrees. Flaps are all different and have different limits at different speed and deflection angle.
As it is now you can say that most planes only have landing flaps ,since you can't use it at higher speed then the landing flaps limit.
What is gamey is having only the big 15000 lbs planes able to use flaps.
That's why you have the 10 ton monster float around with flaps down , because other planes can't use them even if their real life counterparts could.
You either make them all the way they were or make them all the same if you think flaps are gamey.
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Jaws I don't think you fly the game much. Almost every plane I've EVER flown in this game has multiple flap speeds. Flap stage 1 comes out at 175 mph, stage 2 at 150mph, stage 3 at 125mph, stage 4 at 100 and full flaps below 100 (for example). Go ahead. Test this. Take up a Fw190 (for example) offline and test this. Fly level, slow down, note the speed at which the first flaps setting comes out. Then slow down more and more until the next stages come out.
I'm always fighting to slow down so that I can get past stage 3/4 to get to full flaps when I land, so I know for a fact that it is not the case that "all flaps come out at the same speed".
Usually these are based on historical records. Hell even the 109 has records saying which levels of flaps could be enagaged at which speeds and so forth.
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What jaws is really pissed about id HT won't be swayed like IL2/FB.
That's the best part about this game.
Ht won't bow down to guys like Crump and Kurrfy.
When I reformatted my HD I made sure I didn't reinstall IL2/fp/PF and never will.
Bronk
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"They rely on the flaps to tighten their plane's turn, usually to gain a gun solution or follow the enemy's defensive maneuver to its last. "
I still find it hard to believe that your max allowable AoA stays the same with full flaps that what it is with no flaps. That is why the flap management is so much used/abused in flight sims.
The other thing is that the "flaps stuck" situation is, IMO, somewhat unrealistic. What makes them get stuck, I mean in mechanical sense? I'd expect them to come back in, or if the deployment mechanism is strong enough, to simply break away because of too much stress. Or if they do not break away the camber of the wing is so strong that you simply cannot accelerate enough to break your flaps?
Too many planes and too little knowledge of how the flaps really work on each modelled plane so they need to be made consistent for every plane (well, not every, but you get my drift...;)).
Maybe this helps?
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/88647main_H-2368.pdf
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/toothpick/wing.htm
-C+
PS. "Ht won't bow down to guys like Crump and Kurrfy."
Bow down? Interpreted like that they sure "bow down" to that "other direction"... :p
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I still find it hard to believe that your max allowable AoA stays the same with full flaps that what it is with no flaps. That is why the flap management is so much used/abused in flight sims
Max AOA does change with flap settings, both in real planes and aceshigh.
HiTech
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As the originator of this thread, I would like to mention that it was begun to address a very specific issue, which has since been resolved.
You guys who want to continue general discussions as to the realism of the AH flap model may want to start a new thread, with a more accurate and descriptive subject / title. Just a suggestion...
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starting a thread is like opening pandora's box (that sounds like fun)
once you click that button you've got no way to stop me from coming in & typing :
zOMG pwnD!!1
:noid :noid :noid :cool: