Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Phtom on June 09, 2006, 11:07:28 AM
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:D
Does anyone have information readily available on the different types of rockets we use in AH and their use & lethality? I've noticed differences from say when I fly the FW F-8 with its twelve rockets and rockets on American planes. Were some of these air to air? Which ones were more powerful or which ones were lighter when you get the choice in the hangar of two different types? Any info would be appreciated.
There also used to be a chart that showed the difference in distance between cannon rounds and machine gun rounds before they begin to drop. If anyone still has this it would be appreciated. I am looking to post it on our squad page to show our guys how far 50 cals travel as opposed to 30 cals and 303's, and how far 20mm's travel before dropping. If I remember correctly the cannon rounds would drop faster about a 100 meters before the machine guns. :aok
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Dont know about rockets but ANY round from BBs, 303, 50cal, 20mm, 30mm, etc begin to fall as soon as they leave the barrel.
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Not true, Retired.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Not true, Retired.
Yes it is. Simple Physics. And if it doesn’t work like that in AH, then there’s something wrong.
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oh they fall when they come out, about 0.153678th on a inch, because of gravity pulling the bullets down. Will I just made that up, but it could be true.
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The 50 caliber bullet's trajectory doesnt start to drop until around 500 yards. If you dont beleive me do your homework. This has been chewn over several times on this board alone. And its an argument you'll lose if you want to start it with me.
Do a search for barret research group on the net. They are the gods' of the 50 cal and will teach you anything you need to know about its properties.
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http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/grav.html (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/grav.html)
The bullet drops as soon as it leaves the barrel, but since the bullet is going so fast, it isn’t apparent till 500yrds. 50cal bullets can’t defy gravity.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
The 50 caliber bullet's trajectory doesnt start to drop until around 500 yards. If you dont beleive me do your homework. This has been chewn over several times on this board alone. And its an argument you'll lose if you want to start it with me.
Do a search for barret research group on the net. They are the gods' of the 50 cal and will teach you anything you need to know about its properties.
You are probably right. They wont drop enough to make a difference due to their speed. I was only talking about when the drop begins to happen (no matter how small) :aok
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Bullet Trajectory: Fact and Myth
By Mike Nelson
Myths and errors regarding the path of a bullet generally come from a lack of understanding of the forces acting on the bullet before, during, and after its path through the barrel. This article will deal with the primary forces on a bullet's trajectory, and it will mention a few of the secondary forces. The approach is directed toward the average reader. There is no attempt to address concerns of the mathematician or physicist, who should either know this material or should read a more technical and comprehensive treatise.
One of the more pervasive myths associated with bullet trajectory is that "bullets always rise right after they leave the barrel." In general, bullets do rise after leaving the barrel, and they immediately begin to drop. This is not a contradiction, and the explanation is not difficult to understand.
Bullets are affected by gravity whether in flight or not, and, when they leave the barrel, they no longer have any physical support, such as the brass, the box, your pocket, the magazine, the chamber, or the barrel, so they begin to fall. In addition, they are traveling through air, so air resistance progressively slows their flight. On most occasions the barrel is slanted upward slightly to compensate for this immediate drop; thus, for all but extreme shots, since the barrel is aimed slightly upward, the bullet does, indeed, rise slightly after it leaves the barrel, but it bullet never rises above the axis of the barrel. (Just like a football generally rises above the player when they throw a pass. The longer the pass, the greater the starting angle, and the higher the "rise" before the ball begins to fall.)
In scientific terms, "thrown" objects, whether by hand, explosion, springs, compressed air, or other forces, are called "projectiles," their path in space is called their "trajectory," and the study of their trajectories is called "ballistics." Those who fail to understand the elementary physics of ballistics often misinterpret the configuration of barrel and the line of sight and assume that something "special" happens to the bullet during its flight. Many things happen, but nothing "special;" bullets fly just like any other projectile and are subject to the same laws of physics.
The following drawings, though not to exact scale, show the typical paths of bullets and the relationship of these paths to the line of sight, whether determined by open sights or optical sights.
Horizontal Shot. If the barrel is horizontal to the surface of the earth when fired, the bullet never rises above the barrel, and gravity causes an immediate descent.
Typical Alignment. Generally, for what we consider a "horizontal" shot, the sight alignment places the barrel in a slightly upward tilt, and the bullet starts its arc, rises slightly above the level of the muzzle, but never above the axis of the barrel, reaches a peak, then descends. Figure 2 is the graph of a centerfire rifle cartridge that stays within a 6 inch circle for a distance of about 210 yards. Sighted in at approximately 170 yards, this round is approximately 3 inches high at 100 yards and three inches low at approximately 210 yards. You must, of course, always check trajectory data for your particular rifle and cartridge combination.
Velocity. The velocity is a factor in determining energy on impact and the horizontal velocity determines how far the bullet travels before it hits the ground. The above illustrations apply to all ballistic projectiles whether bullets, rocks, or ping pong balls.
Low Velocity Bullets. Bullets at nominally 800 fps to perhaps 1600 fps, such as 22 LR, most pistols, and older rifle cartridges, must follow a rather high arc in order to reach a target 100 yards away. In fact, most of these slower cartridges are only useful to about 50 yards, perhaps 75 yards for some in the upper end of this range.
High Velocity Bullets. Bullets at 2600 fps and up, such as the .223, 22-250, .243/6mm, .270, .308, 30-06, follow a much lower arc to reach a target, and their useful range can be upward of 200 yards. These are often referred to as "flatter" trajectories. With higher velocities, these bullets go much further before gravity and air resistance cause them to fall below the initial line of sight.
Since the barrel is generally directed at an angle to the line of sight, sighting directly upward or directly downward results in a trajectory that deviates even more from the line of sight than the typical, relatively level shot. Still, the effects of gravity and air resistance are the same as far as the bullet is concerned, it is just that the trajectory at such a steep angle is more divergent from the line of sight.
Secondary Ballistics Phenomena. In general, bullets follow a parabolic arc. In reality, that arc is modified significantly by air resistance, which slows the bullet during flight and effects a shortening of the arc down range. That is why the highest point of the usable portion of the trajectory is not the midpoint of that trajectory. Bullet shape and the spin from rifling also influence the trajectory slightly by reducing air resistance and stabilizing bullet orientation. That is why a 500 grain rifle bullet, for example, has a much better trajectory than a 500 grain ball from a smooth bore, all other things being equal.
Fact or Myth. So, does a bullet rise after it leaves the muzzle? One says, "yes." Another says, "no." Who is correct? Both could be correct because of different meanings associated with the word, "rise." They might argue incessantly, but their argument will not change the physical aspects of the path of the bullet. If they would concentrate on discussing the physical events, they would eventually conclude that they were each using the word, "rise," differently or that one of them did not understand elementary ballistics.
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Originally posted by BigR
Yes it is. Simple Physics. And if it doesn’t work like that in AH, then there’s something wrong.
Actually, it depends on where the gun is sighted to hit *dead on*. If the gun is sighted to hit dead on at 100 yards, the bullet will actually rise before it gets to the 100 yard mark and drop after that.
In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark. Before the 400 yard mark they should actually rise a bit.
Using the same 400 yd convergence you can test this using the .target command. Set the target at 200 yds and the majority of your bullets will hit a bit high, setting the target at 600 yds and most will be a bit low. I just did this offline.
Every ballistics graph I have ever seen show every bullet no matter what caliber moving through the air in an arc.
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hey guys, i think the question is, when do they start to drop in Aces High
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This is funny. The assumption is a horizontal shot. The talk ia about bullets and not about barrels. I am smart enough - I think - to understand that if you shoot a bullet aiming at the clouds, it will take a while for it to drop. Same goes for the barrel pointing up. Duh, the bullet will rise.
I don't need a 50cal for this. I can shoot a brick in the air at an angle and I guarantee you it will rise :rofl
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Originally posted by Elfie
Actually, it depends on where the gun is sighted to hit *dead on*. If the gun is sighted to hit dead on at 100 yards, the bullet will actually rise before it gets to the 100 yard mark and drop after that.
In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark. Before the 400 yard mark they should actually rise a bit.
Using the same 400 yd convergence you can test this using the .target command. Set the target at 200 yds and the majority of your bullets will hit a bit high, setting the target at 600 yds and most will be a bit low. I just did this offline.
Every ballistics graph I have ever seen show every bullet no matter what caliber moving through the air in an arc.
In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark.
Drop releative to what? If you think about what you said, the bullet arcs up to the 200 yard mark then begins to drop. In this case the bullet rises from the plane of the barrel until it reaches the 200 yard mark. Then it begins to drop until it reaches the plane of the barrel at 400 yards. At this time it begins to "drop" below the plane of the barrel.
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Article (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html)
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Originally posted by Donzo
In AH if you set your convergence at 400 yards, your bullets wont see any drop until after the 400 yard mark.
Drop releative to what? If you think about what you said, the bullet arcs up to the 200 yard mark then begins to drop. In this case the bullet rises from the plane of the barrel until it reaches the 200 yard mark. Then it begins to drop until it reaches the plane of the barrel at 400 yards. At this time it begins to "drop" below the plane of the barrel.
The drop I was speaking of is in relation to where the bullet hits *dead on* w/o having to compensate for drop/rise. In this case, 400 yards.
Where the projectile peaks in its arc is dependent on several things including, the specific round, (some rounds have flatter trajectories than others, compare the trajectory for the .50 or Hispano to the German 30mm round we have in AH for a good example of this), the specific load, (amount and type of powder used, projectile design, barrel length can all affect the trajectory). I think there are other variables as well that I cant think of just off the top of my head as well.
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Thats an excellent article Donzo. :)
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Since he's talking about the game, and that's the only thing that matters in the game, maybe it would be more productive to start there?
Depends mainly on convergence, Phtom. You could probably more easily demonstrate, on a webpage, the ballistics of the guns buy using the .target command, and taking pics of a given convergence at different ranges, repeating that process with a few different convergences and planes.
Apparently none of us know, so I'd start with that.
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Originally posted by Phtom
:D
Does anyone have information readily available on the different types of rockets we use in AH and their use & lethality? I've noticed differences from say when I fly the FW F-8 with its twelve rockets and rockets on American planes. Were some of these air to air? Which ones were more powerful or which ones were lighter when you get the choice in the hangar of two different types? Any info would be appreciated.
Rocket damage values expressed in equivalent pounds of ordinance:
3.5" Rocket = 140 lbs (air to ground)
4.5" M8 Rocket = 93 lbs (air to ground)
HVAR 5" Rocket = 156 lbs (air to ground)
RS132 = 125 lbs (air to ground)
RS82 = 93 lbs (air to ground)
WGr21 = 200 lbs (air to air, time fused proximity)
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Since he's talking about the game, and that's the only thing that matters in the game, maybe it would be more productive to start there?
I do believe that ballistics are modelled pretty accurately for this game. The ballistics descriptions/articles/discussions posted above are pretty darn accurate for the game.
Depends mainly on convergence, Phtom. You could probably more easily demonstrate, on a webpage, the ballistics of the guns buy using the .target command, and taking pics of a given convergence at different ranges, repeating that process with a few different convergences and planes.
For a squad website thats an excellent idea. I used .target 200, .target 400 and .target 600 with my convergence at 400 for my tests.
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Projectile drop over time is constant. In other words, a .50 cal will "drop" the same as a 30mm in an equal amount of time. Doesnt matter if you define drop as decent from a level trajectory, *or loss of rate of ascent. It is still a product of the acceleration of gravity. So what it comes down to is 'time of flight to target'. That will depend on muzzle velocity minus the projectiles parasitic drag over time.
So if you have a spit with .303s convergence set to 400 yards, and 20mms set to 400 yards, the game will elevate the barrels so that their respective trajectories will decend through the center of your site at that range (within dispersion tolerances). The exact time of flight to target is going to be different for each respective gun type though. The .303 gets to the target faster, so it has a flatter trajectory. The 20mm with a lower muzzle velocity, and higher parasitic drag takes longer to get to the target, and needs a higher inital trajectory to reach the target a the same elevation.
The problem is that in Aces High you are firing from a moving platform, usually on a moving target. Depending on the time of flight of the projectile, the target may be there for the higher velocity rounds to hit it, but not be in the same location by the time the lower velocity rounds get there.
The suggestions to use the .target are a good start. Here is a discussion that touches on these topics >>click here<< (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176637&highlight=flight). Sorry, cant help on a chart of round drop over distance.
* Considering a reasonably level trajectory. Obviously if drag and gravity are acting aginst a projectile from nearly the same vector, the high drag projectile will "drop" or "drop off" more.
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Projectile drop over time is constant. In other words, a .50 cal will "drop" the same as a 30mm in an equal amount of time.
Thats not a very accurate statement. How much a projectile drops is dependent on several factors such as, design and weight of the projectile itself, velocity of the round etc. A more aerodynamic projectile will retain it's velocity longer than a less aerodynamic projectile and will have a much flatter trajectory. (all other factors being equal)
Look up some ballistics graphs Murdr, the most readily available graphs are probably for hunting rounds such as the 30.06, 30-30 etc. In fact, those 2 particular rounds are an excellent example of what I am trying to describe here. The 30.06 has a pretty flat trajectory and the 30-30's trajectory is significantly worse. The 30mm round in AH has absolutely horrible ballistics compared to say the 20mm Hispano.
*edit* also, the longer a bullet is in flight, the more velocity it loses and the faster it drops. Again, look at ballistics graphs for a *visual aid* of what I am talking about.
*edit again* Actually, ballistics charts will show the same thing. Instead of a graph to look at, you will be looking at a series of numbers.
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I said over time, not over distance. Velocity, and loss of velocity to drag are going to change the time to travel from point A to point B. A high velocity round doesnt have a flatter trajectory because it drops less over time, it has a flatter trajectory because it gets to the target in less time.
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Originally posted by Murdr
I said over time, not over distance. Velocity, and loss of velocity to drag are going to change the time to travel from point A to point B. A high velocity round doesnt have a flatter trajectory because it drops less over time, it has a flatter trajectory because it gets to the target in less time.
Ah ok, I misunderstood what you were saying. :)
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Speaking of this .target thingy. I just tried it offline and I have a question. What is is supposed to look like and where should it be (ok, two questions)? When I type in .target 400, I get a white target with blue rings that is about 30 degrees off my nose to the left, and that's where it stays. I can fly in its direction and it eventually is in front of me. If I turn around and go the other way, it is behind me. Is this correct? If so, how is this helpful?
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You have to fly due north then make adjustments to get lined up.
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What Bruno said. Then fire your guns and the bullets will punch holes in the target and you can then see where they land. :)
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Thanks for the target idea for the website Hubsonfire, that will work even better than any graph :aok
And thank you Murdr for the info on the rockets! :D
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Projectile drop over time is constant. In other words, a .50 cal will "drop" the same as a 30mm in an equal amount of time.
Really?
so I guess somewhere along the line someone rewrote trajectory and just decided to leave velocity out of the equation.
Very interesting... I'll have to go back to the drawing board when I head out to the range with my 50cal and expect to hit anything outside of 500 yards.
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I guess gravity treats different objects differently on the planet you're from. Cartoon planet maybe...like gravity has no effect, until the little bullet looks down and realizes he isnt in his cozy firing chamber any more...then he holds up an Acme sign that says "yikes" and starts to fall.
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Morph he is talking about the time it takes a 30mm shell and a .50 cal bullet to hit the ground IF fired from perfectly horizontal guns on a perfectly flat firing range. They will also hit at the same time a rock dropped from the same height as the gun barrels. (All fired and dropped at the same moment)
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They will also hit at the same time a rock dropped from the same height as the gun barrels. (All fired and dropped at the same moment)
The rock doesnt have any forward momentum to keep it airborne, so I do believe it would hit the ground before the bullets :)
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Originally posted by Elfie
The rock doesnt have any forward momentum to keep it airborne, so I do believe it would hit the ground before the bullets :)
Not at all....
First one... (http://www.jal.cc.il.us/~mikolajsawicki/ex_inert.html)
It's one of those wierd aspects of physics, but it holds ;)
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Originally posted by Elfie
The rock doesnt have any forward momentum to keep it airborne, so I do believe it would hit the ground before the bullets :)
The forward momentum of the bullets do not keep them airborne. They are falling as they move forward. What zorstorer is saying is correct, all will hit the ground at the same time...the bullets will be further down range when they hit but they will hit the same time as the rock.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
They will also hit at the same time a rock dropped from the same height as the gun barrels. (All fired and dropped at the same moment)
I think this would work if the bullets didn't have any stabilizing spin on them, but an OK example.
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Forward momentum is only relevent to counteracting gravity if the object is creating lift. Bullet is designed to keep air pressure balanced around the nose and sides (read no lift), otherwise they would not fly true to target.
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Soo....lemme see if I have this right.....the rock and bullets all hit the ground at the same time, its just that the bullets are a half mile away? That doesnt make alot of sense, but I never took physics so what do I know? :D
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Think of it this way....
there is only 1 force acting to pull them to the ground, gravity.
the bullet creates no lift on its own to counter gravity.
so unless the bullet can change the gravity acting on it, it hits at the same time as the rock dropped from the same height at the same moment.
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I believe you guys, since I never took physics, just seems strange. :)
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Originally posted by Murdr
I guess gravity treats different objects differently on the planet you're from. Cartoon planet maybe...like gravity has no effect, until the little bullet looks down and realizes he isnt in his cozy firing chamber any more...then he holds up an Acme sign that says "yikes" and starts to fall.
Then you arent talking about trajectory of a bullet. Your talking about dropping a rock off a cliff, not a barrel at 3000 fps.
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Originally posted by Elfie
What Bruno said. Then fire your guns and the bullets will punch holes in the target and you can then see where they land. :)
Also, if you set the target to, say, 800, shoot at it, then type .target 150, you can get a close look at your results. .Target 0 turns it off.
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Originally posted by Tabasco
Also, if you set the target to, say, 800, shoot at it, then type .target 150, you can get a close look at your results. .Target 0 turns it off.
That would work, I just zoom in :)
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Morpheous you are obviously to ****ing lazy to read the whoopeeed thread or what anyone is saying so why dont you just shut the **** up.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Morpheous you are obviously to ****ing lazy to read the whoopeeed thread or what anyone is saying so why dont you just shut the **** up.
I am too lazy?
What's with all the negativity ol timer?
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Dont get mad at me because you forgot to include velocity, and thought a bullet simply fell to the ground after it left the muzzle.
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Considering the amount of technical discussion in this thread, I find it funny that none of you answered Phtom's relatively straightforward questions.
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Because you have yet to add something substanative. Every post is sarcasm, but no substance as to why someone is in error. If you're not going to explain why in one seconds time the acceleration of gravity is differet for a 30mm than it is for a .50, then I don't know what your trying to contribute. I did not say that a cannon round, and a .50 round drop the same at 400 yards or any other distance. I said that they would drop the same given the exact same amount of flight time given a reasonably level trajectory. The difference in velocity would put them very far apart in distance, at a snapshot in time, but the vertical acceleration from gravity would be the same. No matter how many times Ive said it, you seem to have a problem with it, but if you're not going to explain what the problem is then why bother to post other than to irritate?
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Originally posted by Murdr
Projectile drop over time is constant. In other words, a .50 cal will "drop" the same as a 30mm in an equal amount of time. Doesnt matter if you define drop as decent from a level trajectory, *or loss of rate of ascent. It is still a product of the acceleration of gravity. So what it comes down to is 'time of flight to target'. That will depend on muzzle velocity minus the projectiles parasitic drag over time.
I clearly see velocity in this quote.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Dont get mad at me because you forgot to include velocity, and thought a bullet simply fell to the ground after it left the muzzle.
If you shoot the bullet horizontally it will hit the ground at the same time as a rock that was dropped from the same place.
I would assume that for a gun to shoot at a target that is X yards away horizontally from you you'd need to elevate the gun barrel some, so it would take a little longer for the bullet to hit the ground.
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Interesting, so bullets fall to the ground after they leave the muzzle. Thanks.
Btw, I'm not sure what trajectory has to do with a rock being dropped off a cliff. But when I figure that part out, I'll be sure to let you all know.
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Interesting, so bullets fall to the ground after they leave the muzzle. Thanks.
Btw, I'm not sure what trajectory has to do with a rock being dropped off a cliff. But when I figure that part out, I'll be sure to let you all know.
He didn't say it would land at the same place morph, he said it would land at the same time and that is a fact. Granted, in that time it is going to travel a few thousand feet down range.
The bullet will fall the same distance in the same amount of time as a rock dropped from the same height. (assuming of course that it is fired exactly at horizontal to the ground... Point up a little and obviously its going to over come gravity for a while before beginning to fall - but you and everyone else here already know that...)
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Originally posted by Morpheus
Interesting, so bullets fall to the ground after they leave the muzzle. Thanks.
Btw, I'm not sure what trajectory has to do with a rock being dropped off a cliff. But when I figure that part out, I'll be sure to let you all know.
Not off of a cliff....gun barrel and rock are the came height above a perfectly flat and horizontal firing range. No need to drop the rock off of a cliff at all.
HT want to drop in and school us? ;) Would like to read HT's example to describe this :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Considering the amount of technical discussion in this thread, I find it funny that none of you answered Phtom's relatively straightforward questions.
There really isnt a single answer for him Hub. Especially since every single gun has it's own ballistics. :) Murdr posted some info on the rockets, but as far as a chart for the guns in the game.....well your idea to use the .target command is probably his best option. He could use that to see how far rockets drop as well.
Phtom if you want to show the differences in ballistics in cannons and machine guns......in planes that have a mixed bag of weapons, fire the machine guns and cannons separately so you can illustrate the ballistics differences on your website.
Not to sure how the discussion got off on the physics tangent though. :D
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Originally posted by Elfie
Not to sure how the discussion got off on the physics tangent though. :D
Fundamentally its a physics question - Thats how.
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I dont think Phtom was asking about the physics aspect though heh.
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He didn't ask for theories or formulas. He asked for a basic comparison of weapons, and their relative effectiveness. Despite all the theories and pursefighting, the best we could come up with was "experiment and take pictures."
Theoretical knowledge and formulas are useless if you can't apply them to something, hence this thread has mostly been a waste of time, except for the few of us who will check his webpage later for the answers to the questions he asked us first. Absolutely silly.
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He just needs to take the screenshots Hub. There truly isnt an answer for him (at least not just one answer). What he wants to know cant really be answered unless he uses the .target command, unless.....someone else has already done this and made a graph of it.
He wants to know how much bullet drop will occur and the difference between cannons and machine guns (as far as point of impact for the rounds).....well......that depends on where your convergence is set. Each convergence setting will change the answer as well.
I too will visit his website and check things out when he is done. :)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
hence this thread has mostly been a waste of time, except for the few of us who will check his webpage later for the answers to the questions he asked us first. Absolutely silly.
You're never going to get rock solid answers to the question because of all the variables described in this thread... And yes, its been silly, and most everyone is right to some degree.
Yeah, we all know that most guns are good to 500 yards, some slower heavier cannon rounds are like 300ish. Beyond that, even the simple question descends into academics. Is there any quantifiable benifit to knowing that gun type X goes 25 more yards before dropping an additional inch than Gun type Y?
In order to work it out, you need the muzzle velocity, the rate at which a specific projectile decelerates over time, and then you need the constants of gravity (meaning how much is my projectile accellerating toward the ground over time)... When the lines cross, you've got your absolute effective range. And its utterly useless information.
Only HT knows how much detail is in the model.
The useful answer is, almost all guns are great out to 300 and very effective to 500. Beyond that its a crap shoot.
It is further invalidated by the lead angles which get darn hard to figure out beyond about 500 anyhow.
Set the convergence to 275, and don't shoot till you can read the altimeter in the enemy cockpit... Thats all anyone needs to know :D
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Originally posted by Kurt
The bullet will fall the same distance in the same amount of time as a rock dropped from the same height. (assuming of course that it is fired exactly at horizontal to the ground...
I saw "Mr. Wizard for Kids" show, years ago, and thought the theory was BS, but here's what he did for a visual.
Set a bowling ball on a horizontally level runner, with activator switch on launch end. Somehow clipped another bowling ball hung under launch end.
Spring launches top bowling bowl down runner, as it passes end, bottom bowling ball releases.
BOTH hit ground same time.
He then did the same with a rifle in desert, bullet going horizontal, bowling ball straight down (how in hell he rigged the release I forgot? I was drunk when I saw this)..
Anyways.. you guessed it. Bowling ball and bullet hit ground, SAME TIME!
(How'd he do dat? Mirrors?)
RV6