Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Stoney74 on June 11, 2006, 01:21:05 AM
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Disclaimer: This is not a "value or worthlessness" of a Head On attack post.
My question:
During WWII, among some of the books (primarily "Long Reach" and "12 to 1") I've read, U.S. pilots routinely broke into enemy planes and tried to force a head-on pass. I'll caveat that by saying I haven't seen much gun-camera footage of HO shootdowns, but, the pilots report the HO pass a valued tactic. In both the pacific and europe, there are consistent tales of German and Japanese pilots turning away to avoid the head-on. Now, most of the U.S. planes had .50 cals while most Axis planes were carrying at least some cannon. Seems like the exact opposite is true in the MA, where all the cannon planes are more than happy to HO you, whereas in a U.S. plane, you're basically looking (with the exception of the jug and 38) at the basic 6X.50 cal package and can only HO a cannon armed plane at your own risk. Can someone explain the paradox here, again, without getting into a "HO sux" type of discussion.
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Until we've attempted to shoot real people in the face, we'll only be referencing the same things you've read. Plane construction, weapon range and effectiveness, the situations in which such passes are made, etc.
And, I'm sure having some maniac spray 6 or 8 50 cals at your head as he screams past at a rate of 600mph of closure probably left a lasting and extremely unnerving impression on newer pilots.
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The USN taught HO shots as a prefered tactic against IJA/IJN planes because of their fragile construction. It was official USN doctrine to seek a HO shot. Donno about the USAAF, but I know I'd think more than twice about taking a HO with a 190A-8.
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ya i would HO a a6m i mean the plane is fragile and 1 couple of pings would kill the pilot. plus the 50cals were alot stronger in real life.
also the use mosly used 50 cals so when they did HO they had a lof more bullets coming at u. which would result in a pilot kill. the japanease planes were weak and the US probably tried to get any type of shot they could. also with the german planes its the same thing. they only have 1 little lo cannon so id be scared to HO with that too.
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What the heck. Just as a note, cartoon planes in a simulated world does not equate to doing this for real. Valid tactic in RL or not, it has no bearing here, and you are still a worthless, skilless dweeb if you do it ingame, and your momma still wears combat boots.
In RL? Sure, flying a Hellcat or a F4U I'd make a headon pass vs a A6M. Why not?
1) The American planes are all well armored, with a huge radial engine up front that can absorb lots of damage and keep on flying, self sealing fuel tanks, and bullet-resistant glass in the front of the cockpit.
2) The American planes pour out a huge hail of lead from 6x.50 cal. MGs
3) The Japanese A6M had no armor, slim design, and afforded very little protection to the pilot other than the maneuverability of the aircraft.
4) The limited firepower of the A6M meant that, while it was armed with cannons, it had neither the ROF or the number of guns of the American planes, so there was much less lead able to be put in the air to do damage to the oncoming American.
If the American plane gets you in his sights, your best bet is to go evasive and not try jousting. If the A6M can avoid the initial pass, and the American plane stays to fight, the balance swings to the Zero. Why wouldnt the headon pass be a great opening move for the American in this case? It makes sense.
Now, put me in a P-51, facing heavily armed and armored FW 190's and Bf 109's, no way in hell would I make a headon run against them. For one thing, by all pilot accounts the P-51 was a good match for the 109, and more than a match for the FW if it came to a dogfight. For another, they were all well armed and as well armored as any American plane. Add to that the fact that you no longer have the protection of the big engine in front, and indeed you have the cooling system to worry about besides. I might feel more safe in a P-47, but I never read anywhere that P-47 pilots used headon passes vs Luftwaffe fighters as a tactic. Even with a Jug I wouldnt want to face the guns of a FW headon.
I have read stories about Spitfires and Hurricanes using the tactic vs German bombers during the BoB, mainly from initial frustrations over how much ammo it took to bring down a bomber with those .303's. They started making passes at the cockpits of the bombers to try to kill the pilots. Desperation tactics in desperate times. Had they had cannon armed planes earlier, I think they would have done differently. They did what they had to do, with the equipment they had to work with. Those were tactics against bombers though, not vs fighters.
No matter what, no RL pilot ever made a headon pass at an enemy plane and did so lightly. In the case of the Zero, its simply far more dangerous if it gets behind you where you cant shoot back than it is in front of you where your superior firepower might bring it down first. Beyond that example, I cannot think of any other plane matchup where pilots would actively seek to setup for headon passes at opposing fighters.
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Chuck Yeager was shot down in a HO with a 190.
HOs with bombers are different. Most bombers do not have many forward firing guns (Early in the war anyway). Also the front of bombers has the most glass, and is an inviting target. For the planes we do not have in AH, think of most mid-early war planes to have guns placed like the ki-67. Why attack the tail gun when the nose is defended by a single gun?
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HO's back then were different. You couldn't re-up moments after you were shot down. You either took a risk with YOUR LIFE and hope you don't hit the other plane or get shot up, or you could try something else. This tactic would scare the other pilot into making a manuever that would benefit the attacker or allow the said attack a good shot into the cockpit area.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
Chuck Yeager was shot down in a HO with a 190.
HOs with bombers are different. Most bombers do not have many forward firing guns (Early in the war anyway). Also the front of bombers has the most glass, and is an inviting target. For the planes we do not have in AH, think of most mid-early war planes to have guns placed like the ki-67. Why attack the tail gun when the nose is defended by a single gun?
I hardly ever attack bombers from the rear. The HO shot from the top or bottom is the best tactic for waxing buffs in my opinion.
:aok
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
What the heck. Just as a note, cartoon planes in a simulated world does not equate to doing this for real. Valid tactic in RL or not, it has no bearing here, and you are still a worthless, skilless dweeb if you do it ingame, and your momma still wears combat boots.
I didn't get the impression he was asking about in-game HOs as a valued tactic. I took the question as an attempt to gain HISTORICAL information, unrelated to the game.
Ligthen up, Francis:lol
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Actually Lawman, you are correct.
The book "VIII Fighter Command At War" (Long Reach), almost every pilot states that turning into a HO with a 109 or 190 was the best way to get them to break. I'll provide quotes if necessary. I guess my bigger question is why didn't the LW pilots value all that armor and cannon? If the cannons hit so hard, why not use 'em? I'm just trying to figure out why the U.S. pilots had no hesitation to go HO with the Germans (despite all the armor and cannon) whereas both opposing countries avoided it like the plague--so much in fact that they would expose their six to avoid the HO...
Did they think the Americans were crazy?
I'll concede self-preservation to a point. Obviously U.S. pilots weren't as concerned, and most of the time they were over enemy territory. So, at least for the U.S., self-preservation wasn't keeping them from the HO.
Thanks for the comments. It'd be nice to find some documentation from Axis pilots regarding HO passes...
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LOL i know i'd sure listen to a desk jockey for the USN telling me its OK to HO.
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It was actually not put into the doctrine until after Coral Sea when guys like Jimmy Thatch came back to report the tactics they found worked.
Still, I agree, I would probably not want to put myself in a position where the other guy had guns on me in RL even if my plane had tons of armour and his had none.
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Thing's change alot when the bullets become real, and are flying in your direction.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
I'm just trying to figure out why the U.S. pilots had no hesitation to go HO with the Germans (despite all the armor and cannon) whereas both opposing countries avoided it like the plague--so much in fact that they would expose their six to avoid the HO...
I would be just as afraid of being hit with a 50 cal as a 20mm (hit in the body, not plane). Either one will either kill you or make you lose a lot of blood before you can land.
Here is where 50 cal has the upper hand, the 50 cal guns have a higher rate of fire than the 20mm, and the US planes hold more 50 cal than the enemy had 20mm. Where US fighters have 6 50 cal guns, the enemy has 1 or 2. So there is a lot more risk for the 109/190 pilot than the US pilot.
To answer the original question, the reason US planes fear being HOed more than cannon armed planes, it because you still fight when you have a pilot wound. In real life the pilot would hit the deck and head for home (assuming they were still alive) in a lot of pain. In AH, you don't feel pain. So instead of worrying about the pilot wound, you worry about how much damage you can inflict on the other plane. A few 20mm rounds does more than a few 50 cal rounds.
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Originally posted by NCLawman
I didn't get the impression he was asking about in-game HOs as a valued tactic. I took the question as an attempt to gain HISTORICAL information, unrelated to the game.
Ligthen up, Francis:lol
It was a joke. I figured most of you were old enough to understand sarcasm. Next time I'll use the preschool version for you.
Dont take yourself so seriously Nancy.
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Here's a couple of thoughts.
What was the average number of flight hours (i.e., experience) the German pilots had versus the Allies? By the time the US entered the European war with significant fighters the Germans had already been fighting for years. Also, at some point most of the US pilots went home, something that wasn't really an option for the Luftwaffe (except leave) so the average level of US experience was probably much lower...maybe the US never learned the lesson. Ever hear the one about no old, bold pilots?
As far as any success the US had using this tactic we see it all the time in AH. If one pilot tried to avoid the HO and the other doesn't that means the guy pressing the HO has the advantage both in forcing the other pilot to maneuver to defeat the HO (eliminating the possibility of a mutual HO) and he's defending, not maneuvering for advantage. So, even if the HO is unsuccessful, the HO'er usually gains an advantage. Not surprising that the guy not following the "rules" wins (vulching, picking, hoing, etc.) Of course, it sounds reasonable that the Germans learned the lesson of the HO in large part to the simple mathematics of 100 50Cals coming at him vs 10 20mm going out, the odds were just not with him. And BTW, anyone see what a 50cal does to a body? It's really irrelevant whether the round is a 20mm or 50cal when it comes to soft targets...they both dismember it although the 20mm might be a bit more "colorful".
Mace
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I think folks tend to believe that all the Japanese fighters were Zeros, N1Ks etc
Remember that the 38 drivers and other USAAF pilots were fighting Ki-43 Oscars of the Japanese Army Air Force much of the time. The Flying Tigers in China were as well. You are talking 2 x 12.7mm MGs in that bird.
A 38 head on vs that was no contest. Over 5000 Ki-43s built and it was a mainstay of JAAF units throughout the war.
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simple, .50 cal's maximum effective range is much more than any cannon. period.
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Come on guys ... get real.
Don't think for 1 second that any pilot in WWII purposely went for what we all know and love ... the MA HO ... no loving way !!!
I don't care what kind of ballistic round the other guy was using ... nobody wants to go face to face with 12.7s, 303s, .50s ... they all will leave a mark that will definately ruin your day or tear your engine up causing you have to bail in places where, if your caught, you won't be staying at a Holiday Inn. Very strong deterents for doing the MA HO.
I would bet that what was considered a "Head-On" attack back then was a very high angle deflection shot to the frontal quarters of the enemy.
I doubt very strongly that any "doctrine" said ... line up nose to nose on the enemy and start firing. I challenge anyone to find any documentation or "doctrines" that recommended that tactic.
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side note, if you read NON FICTION (YES A NOVEL IS FICTION)ww2 books, you'll find the ho referred to much. :cool:
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The Abbeville Kids HO'd the Allied bombers over France. It was their preferred, no deflection, but HO. They were feared by the USAAF because they knew they were more vulnerable.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The Abbeville Kids HO'd the Allied bombers over France. It was their preferred, no deflection, but HO. They were feared by the USAAF because they knew they were more vulnerable.
I am confused ...
"They were feared by the USAAF ..."
or did you mean ...
"They feared the USAAF ..."
:huh
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I would bet that what was considered a "Head-On" attack back then was a very high angle deflection shot to the frontal quarters of the enemy.
I doubt very strongly that any "doctrine" said ... line up nose to nose on the enemy and start firing. I challenge anyone to find any documentation or "doctrines" that recommended that tactic.
Gotta agree with that. There is a difference between a forward quarter attack (attacking from in front of his wingline) and the HO we typically complain about. In AH, what I would call a HO are those that go pipper on, trigger down till someone blows up or rams, they don't even try to avoid it. In RL it's perfectly acceptable (and many times mandatory) to turn directly into a target and take him close aboard to take out separation and turning room. I'd guess they might put out a stream of rounds at range (to give the target something to think about) and then jink but nobody in their right mind would ever do an AH style "HO to merge".
One of the funniest things you see is a slow and almost unmaneuverable plane hoed by a 400kt La7/190/109. The slow guy doesn't have the e to maneuver away, has no options and is forced to accept the HO and the HOer ends up going down...guess who is all over ch200? Right, the 400kt guy who had all the options in the world and chose to HO anyway. Also, is it just me or do you get far more HOs from these three aircraft types than any other? Think it might be because they have crappy over the nose visibility which makes deflection shots difficult? Maybe these guys are doing the only thing they can to hit something.
Mace
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"They were feared by the USAAF ..."
The above is what I typed.
The bomber pilots FEARED the Yellow nosed FW-190's JG-26 flew. They HO'd the buffs.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
The above is what I typed.
The bomber pilots FEARED the Yellow nosed FW-190's JG-26 flew. They HO'd the buffs.
Ahhh ... got it now.
Did the bombers have frontal guns ? If so, I would bet that it was a frontal assault, but not directly at forward firing guns.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Ahhh ... got it now.
Did the bombers have frontal guns ? If so, I would bet that it was a frontal assault, but not directly at forward firing guns.
It's been a couple of years since I read the book Slap, but if I recall, they were frontal attacks. They knew of the possibility of the chin turrets hitting them (these were US aircraft during the day) them, but they were very effective in taking a few out of a formation on the first pass. Insane yes, but again, the allies shivered when they saw the yellow-nosed 190's.
It was a good read Slap, like $7 on paperback: "JG26 Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" or something similar. Check it out. <> Slap, cya in the MA bro.
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Originally posted by Grits
The USN taught HO shots as a prefered tactic against IJA/IJN planes because of their fragile construction. It was official USN doctrine to seek a HO shot. Donno about the USAAF, but I know I'd think more than twice about taking a HO with a 190A-8.
Meanwhile..back in the backwater war, China, my dad who flew with the flying tigers was leading a flight on a mission to attack japanese bombers when he spotted a zeke in his rear. He turned around to attack it. He looked around for his wingman and they weren't there.
OOPS..he forgot to tell then he had turned around. So he just fired HO'd at the zeke with his tiger sharked P40, hit him, and boogied home. Tactics or shear panic? :)
I asked him if the zeke went down which he replied.."he was smoking and zekes being lightly built..I don't think he made it home, son".
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Originally posted by HardRock
Meanwhile..back in the backwater war, China, my dad who flew with the flying tigers was leading a flight on a mission to attack japanese bombers when he spotted a zeke in his rear. He turned around to attack it. He looked around for his wingman and they weren't there.
OOPS..he forgot to tell then he had turned around. So he just fired HO'd at the zeke with his tiger sharked P40, hit him, and boogied home. Tactics or shear panic? :)
I asked him if the zeke went down which he replied.."he was smoking and zekes being lightly built..I don't think he made it home, son".
<> to your dad !!!
Those flying Tiger pilots were some real gutsy dudes.
I was hoping he answered the ... "tatics or shear panic" question.
Did he say that HOing was something he did all the time ?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I would bet that what was considered a "Head-On" attack back then was a very high angle deflection shot to the frontal quarters of the enemy.
I doubt very strongly that any "doctrine" said ... line up nose to nose on the enemy and start firing. I challenge anyone to find any documentation or "doctrines" that recommended that tactic.
You are correct. The prewar USN doctrine was WWI style "dogfighting". After the first contact with the Zero/Oscar they found that the Brewster F2A and the F4F could not turn with it and had to come up with other tactics. From that point on, turning to get on a enemies tail was abandoned and they started teaching deflection shooting. The USN did more deflection shooting practice in training than the USAAF. With that shooting skill, they told them to seek HO shots, but they were not what we do in this game, they were as you say, high angle front quarter shots and 90 degree side shots.
The point being, and totally separate from AH, this was 180 degrees away from what they were teaching pilots before contact with the Zero/Oscar.
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Anyone who says they don't take the HO shot in the MA is lying through their teeth. I haven't EVER been in a merge in the MA where the guy HASN'T taken the shot (and this INCLUDES recognizeable vets).
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I rarely take a HO shot on the first merge mainly because its not tacticly sound and you give up angles if the guy lead turns you. AFTER the first merge all bets are off and I will take any shot opportunity I get, and that includes HO's.
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Anyone who says they don't take the HO shot in the MA is lying through their teeth.
Absolutely !!!
I haven't EVER been in a merge in the MA where the guy HASN'T taken the shot (and this INCLUDES recognizeable vets).
I highly doubt it.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Anyone who says they don't take the HO shot in the MA is lying through their teeth. I haven't EVER been in a merge in the MA where the guy HASN'T taken the shot (and this INCLUDES recognizeable vets).
The guy I worry about is the guy who DOESN'T take the HO shot. I figure he probably knows what he's doing and I'm going to have to work hard. If the guy takes the HO, I figure even a sucky pilot like me has a shot to knock him down unless he's in an LA7 going light speed the other way.
I don't take a HO shot 99% of the time. I'd be lying if I said I never did, but it's usually one of those situations where I'm getting ganged, or taking off at a base being vulched and the guy is running down the runway at me.
But there are most definately guys who don't take the HO. To say you've never encountered one is amazing
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Originally posted by Guppy35
The guy I worry about is the guy who DOESN'T take the HO shot. I figure he probably knows what he's doing and I'm going to have to work hard.
Exactly. I never (OK, almost never) go for the HO on the first merge for that reason. I always try for angles on the first merge, and like Dan, if I see him go for the HO I think in my mind "this guy is dead now" because unless he runs, I have gotten the decisive angles advantage I need and the fight is only a matter of time. As I said though, after the first merge, I'll shot you in the face and not even think twice about it.
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I always go for the HO, since I am not that skilled I will take luck any day.
HO + vulch = good day
All this discussion about whether it's historic or not, or whether it's BS in the MA isn't going to solve anything. The bottom line in my opinion is kill or be killed and most af all have fun.
It's just a game
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Originally posted by Saxman
Anyone who says they don't take the HO shot in the MA is lying through their teeth. I haven't EVER been in a merge in the MA where the guy HASN'T taken the shot (and this INCLUDES recognizeable vets).
you kiding right? The recognizable vets will be the first to HO you or pick you. Especialy when in afurball. Then they will tell you how bad your SA was.
That been said though, not every one will HO at the merge.
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Originally posted by Grits
As I said though, after the first merge, I'll shot you in the face and not even think twice about it.
bet your standing on your tippy toes to do it
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Originally posted by storch
bet your standing on your tippy toes to do it
Nope, you always get down on your knees remember?
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Does this make it ok to HO on merge in the MA ?
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Originally posted by Grits
Nope, you always get down on your knees remember?
if I got down on my knees I'd still 4" taller than you, pipsqueak.
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TIP:
You can actually shoot down planes while on their SIX. Yes I know its hard to believe and so not to give away this tip I will from time to time provide the head on so not to give away my secret.
qoute from wldmn
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In real life it wouldnt matter to me if the enemy was slinging bullets, cannons or toasters at me. I wouldnt want to take the risk.
In AH the life or death becomes more of a "lets see if I can get him this time" thing. The reason the guys with cannons are more willing in AH is because they have shooting with them worked out. And they do more damage so why not? In real life the cannon guys had less ammo, and probably thought between the rate of fire of the 50 cals, and their own limited supply, it would be a better idea not to ho.
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Originally posted by storch
if I got down on my knees I'd still 4" taller than you, pipsqueak.
While this may be true, I have good aim and you still end up taking the money shot like every good little fanboi should. :aok
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Originally posted by Grits
While this may be true, I have good aim and you still end up taking the money shot like every good little fanboi should. :aok
little pipsqueaks don't take shots and aren't allowed to handle currency. so dream on little fella.
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I go for them in critical situations - example, a plane diving in to a field where we are dropping troops and I don't have time to use ACM to gain a real advantage. Suicide is painless in AH.
That said, I will ALWAYS try to dive under a plane approaching HO. If he is diving as well and we are destined to HO, I fire my guns, no regrets.
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There is one HUGE difference between WWII head ons and heaed ons the way so many AHIIers do it.
In World War II, most pilots weren't stupid enough to maintain a collision course until they collided. Unlike this highly UNREALISTIC game, collisions
IRL usually meant death to both planes/pilots.
The reason so many use head on until collisions merges in AHII is because there is no effective disincentive to do so.
By the way, I can't remember the book the excerpt was from but I distinctly remember a P-38 pilot recalling a fight with a bunch of (I believe ) Romanian fighters and commenting the 38 jocks tried to AVOID headons because the odds of taking damage from such tactics close in - or colliding - were too great. They always tried to take angles for deflection "head ons" - and tried to avoid flying directly at an enemy plane.
Whether head ons were taught as a tactic or not is a moot point - at no time did the Navy or Army teach pilots to COLLIDE with enemy planes.
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Probably the fight in question is the low level Ploesti 38 run where the 38s got bounced by IAR 80s. They thougt they were 190s.
Herb "Stub" Hatch, describes the mission from his vantage point of Cragmore
Green 3, the element leader of the 4th Flight. 71st FS, 1st FG June 10, 1944
"At this point we were only 250-300 feet off the ground. As we pulled up
slightly to turn back north again somebody hollered, 'Cragmore Break left
for Chrissake!' I looked to my left and there was a whole flock of FW 190s
headed in from 10 O'clock high.
Our entire squadron broke to the left. As I continued around in my sharp
turn a lone 190 came out of nowhere and pulled right across in front of me.
He was so close -fifty to seventy five yards away- that all I could see in
my ring sight was the belly of his fuselage and the wing roots. I opened
fire with all four 50-caliber machine guns and the 20mm cannon and I just
damn near blew him in half. That saved my neck because when I rolled out
to shoot at the 190 I looked to my right and here comes another bunch of
190s from my 2 0'clock.
There were four 190s in the lead. I did the only thing I could do. I
turned sharply to my right, pulled up and fired again. The leader was
150-250 yards away, nearly head on and slightly to my left. I set the lead
190 on fire with a burst that went through the engine, left side of the
cockpit and the wing root. The 190 rolled to its right and passed me on my
left. I didn't see him crash but my gun camera film showed the fire and my
wingman Lt. Joe Morrison, confirmed that he crashed. Unfortunately the
other three 190s in that flight went right over my head and down on the
tails of Green flight leader and his wingman. Both were shot down.
As I continued my turn around to my right, my wingman stayed with me and I
saw another 190 right up behind one of my tentmates, Joe Jackson flying as
Cragmore white 4. I closed in on that one from about his five o'clock and
tried to shoot his canopy off from about 100 yards, but I was too late to
save Joe. By then the 190 had set Jackson's plane on fire. Joe's plane
rolled over and went in and he was killed. I finally did get a burst into
the cockpit area and the 190 followed Joe right into the ground.
I was still turning to the right, going quite slowly by then, because I had
my combat flaps down. I turned maybe another 90 degrees to my right when I
saw on of our 38s coming head on with a 190 on his tail. We were still
only around 300 feet and the P38 passed over me by fifty-seventy five feet.
I pulled up my nose and opened fire on the trailing 190 from a distance of
about 150-200 yards. He kept coming head on and I shot off the bottom half
of his engine. He nosed down still shooting at me and I had to dump the
yoke hard to miss him. He was burning when he went over me, by not more
then three feet and part of his right wing knocked about three inches off
the top of my left rudder.
As the 190 went over my head I saw three more making a pass at me from my
left. I turned so fast I lost Joe Morrison. I missed my shot that time
but when these three went over me they went after Morrison. I saw three
190s diving on another 38. I snap shot at the leader from about 90 degree
deflection. I hit his left wing and shredded the aileron. He fell off on
his wing and went in. He was so low there was no chance for him to
recover. I kept on going around to my left and shot at the second one with
was going away from me on my left. I hit him, but I am not sure if he went
in. I know I knocked a bunch of pieces off his cowling and fuselage but I
didn't have time to see what was happening to him.
I looked to my 2 o'clock and here comes another 190 right at me. It was
too late for me to turn. I just shut my eyes and hunched down in the
cockpit. I thought I had bought the farm right there. But he missed me,
he never even hit my ship. I think he missed me because I was going so
slowly. He overestimated my speed and was overleading me. I started to
turn his way and when he went behind me I continued on around. There was
another one out there so I closed in on him. I took aim, fired but my guns
only fired about ten rounds and quit. I was out of ammo. I damaged him a
bit but he flew away.
I cannot over emphasize what a melee that was. There were at least twelve
P38s in that little area, all of them at very low altitude. Somewhere
between 25 and 30 190s were also there. None of us were at more then 200
or 300 feet and some were quite a bit lower. The topography was kind of a
little hollow with hills on each side. It was by far the wildest melee I
saw in sixty odd combat missions I flew. I heard one guy who had been
wounded pretty badly, scream until he went in. It was a wild, wild few
minutes. And a few minutes is all it was. According to the mission report
from our debriefing the whole fight took something like three to six
minutes. I had no inkling of elapsed time while it was going on. I was too
damned busy trying to stay alive.
When I woke up to the fact that I was out of ammunition, 600 miles into
enemy territory and all alone, I broke out of the area and went looking for
some company. In only a few minutes I found one of the other planes in my
squadron headed in my general direction. I called the pilot, Carl
Heonshell, on the radio and we joined up. About that time I heard my
wingman Joe Morrison hollering for some help. He was on single engine,
pretty badly shot up and would someone please come help him. So Hoenshell
and I turned back to look for Joe. We finally found him down around 200
feet. After we got him headed in our direction we started to climb out of
there to the west.
Joe's airplane looked like a lace doily. The two 190s that I had not had
time to turn into had gone over the top of me and down onto Joe's tail
because he had broken right when I had broken left. Joe's ship was flying
but just barely. Hoenshell and I were both out of ammo. The three of us
tried to make ourselves as small as possible and headed west. Four or five
minutes later another P38 joined with us. It as Lt. John Allen, a 94th
Squadron pilot. We hoped he had some ammunition. When we called to ask we
found his radio was out and we couldn't talk to him.
Another 25-30 miles west just as we were gaining some altitude we ran into
a bunch of flak. Unfortunately Morrison became separated from us again
because he couldn't maneuver, as quickly to get out of the flak, so we had
to turn around and go back and get him again. We nursed Joe along for a
long, long time. Finally we got out of Rumania and into Yugoslavia and had
climbed to about 12,000 feet. We were S-ing back and forth over Joe
because he couldn't fly as fast as we could on his single engine. As I was
turning from one of our S's I spotted 6 Me109s about 8 0'clock. I hollered
to Hoenshell "Bogies high at 8' o'clock!" He saw them too and cautioned.
"Hold it, hold it, Joe hit the deck." Joe didn't lose any time. He stuck
his nose down and headed for the ground.
Carl Allen and I held the turn ad best we could and when the 109s broke
formation and came at us from 6 o'clock we turned into them hoping to scare
them off by looking like we were ready for a fight, but they didn't scare
worth a damn. (This with no ammo) When Hoenshell, who was leading hollered
on the radio, "Hit the deck Hatch!" I didn't waste any time doing just
that. I rolled my airplane over on its back and split-essed out of there.
One 109 was chasing me with a couple of others going after Hoenshell, but I
don't know where the others went. There was an undercast beneath us and I
didn't have the faintest idea where the mountains were-Yugoslavia is full
of them-but there was no choice at this point. The Me109 was chasing me
and I had nothing left to fight with so I went through that undercast so
fast I didn't even see it. I was hitting close to 600 mph when I came
through into the bottom into a valley between two high ridges. The Lord
sure was with me that day.
I kept going. When I was sure I'd lost the 190 I pulled back up over the
overcast and started looking around for Hoenshell, Allen or Morrison,
anybody. I heard Joe hollering for help but my fuel level was getting down
to the point where I couldn't afford any longer to turn around and go back.
I continued on toward Foggia.
When I landed back at home base I was the first member of our squadron to
return from the mission. It was noon and my elapsed time was 6 hours 55
minutes. I don't think I had enough gas to go around again if I hadn't
been able to land on my first approach. There was quite a welcoming
committee at the revetment when I parked the aircraft. Shortly after I
landed Cragmore Blue flight came in, all four of them. They hadn't been in
the fight at all. Much later that evening, long after debriefing and after
we seven survivors had imbibed a bit of the medicinal alcohol that the
flight surgeon had been kind enough to put out, who should come wandering
in but Joe Morrison, my wingman. He had gotten that lace doily across the
Adriatic but had to dump it on the field at Bari."
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So, even if the HO is unsuccessful, the HO'er usually gains an advantage
wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong!
Anyone who says they don't take the HO shot in the MA is lying through their teeth. I haven't EVER been in a merge in the MA where the guy HASN'T taken the shot (and this INCLUDES recognizeable vets).
I fly a 51D a lot and I'm telling you that I never HO on a merge with another fighter. There's too much advantage to be had by not HO'ing and
the 51d just doesn't hold up well in a HO. Finally, even if I shoot the other guy down I wouldn't consider the HO successful if i took damage. I'm looking to get 4 or 5 kills a flight(I'd like to get more but can't shoot straight) and I'm not going to get any kills limping around the arena in a dinged up pony.
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Originally posted by Grits
You are correct. The prewar USN doctrine was WWI style "dogfighting". After the first contact with the Zero/Oscar they found that the Brewster F2A and the F4F could not turn with it and had to come up with other tactics. From that point on, turning to get on a enemies tail was abandoned and they started teaching deflection shooting. The USN did more deflection shooting practice in training than the USAAF. With that shooting skill, they told them to seek HO shots, but they were not what we do in this game, they were as you say, high angle front quarter shots and 90 degree side shots.
The point being, and totally separate from AH, this was 180 degrees away from what they were teaching pilots before contact with the Zero/Oscar.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
<> to your dad !!!
Those flying Tiger pilots were some real gutsy dudes.
I was hoping he answered the ... "tatics or shear panic" question.
Did he say that HOing was something he did all the time ?
I imagine, tho he didn't say, it was more out of panic considering he forgot to tell his wingman he had done a 180
That was about the only air to air he did out of 133 combat missions aside from a few bomber attacks. Most was ground stuff like bridges and depots.
Oh yeah and the banana split as he called it. Japanese used sampans to ferry supplies. As he come down on his strafing run he'd see the people jumping off each side of the boat. The ensuing 50 cals split it down the middle. Thus a banana split ;-)