Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: SgtPappy on June 12, 2006, 03:08:26 PM
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Hey everyone! Today I was reading up about the P-38L ... according to my sources, the L variant had internal cockpit heating, windsheild defrosters and engine problems at high altitude were all fixed. Is any of this actually true? I've been checking on countless sites and still havent found truly reliable information.
Also, I've been lead to believe that the P-38's actual climb rate under 5000' exceeded 4,500'/min. However in AHII, the climb is 1000'/min less.
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I may be wrong, but I think the P-38L was actually optimised for fighting at medium to lower altitudes. By that point in the war the high-alt escort and defensive CAP missions were pretty much over, the majority of the fighting was ground support and air-cover over the front lines.
I do know that the L had the best cockpit heating (and defrosting, they used the same system) of the series, but considering the dreadful conditions in the models up until then, thats not really saying much...
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I guess that's true.. since there were barely any Luftwaffe planes left during 1944. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the cost to maintain and buy such an advanced prop fighter was so much and the earlier models so unreliable that there was only one FG left in the ETO by D-Day flying P-38's.
But just wondering Treize.. would you mind giving me the website (or book, w.e) where you found the fact stating that the P-38L had heaters/defrosters? Sorry for the pickiness, but some information I get is 35% false.
By the way, why do you despise Spitfires? :lol
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Originally posted by Treize69
I may be wrong, but I think the P-38L was actually optimised for fighting at medium to lower altitudes. By that point in the war the high-alt escort and defensive CAP missions were pretty much over, the majority of the fighting was ground support and air-cover over the front lines.
I do know that the L had the best cockpit heating (and defrosting, they used the same system) of the series, but considering the dreadful conditions in the models up until then, thats not really saying much...
You are wrong. The P-38L was still a high altitude fighter. No change to the L from previous models was made to tune them for medium or low altitude performance. The mission may have changed, but the plane didn't change to suit it. Although the L did get the "trees" for rockets, rather than the "bazooka tubes", and the "trees" reduced drag and allowed a greater payload of rockets.
Also, the L was developed BEFORE the high altitude missions were still ongoing. The L model was deployed in mid 1944, meaning it was already fully developed for the most part in late 43 to early 44. In fact, because the USAAC/USAAF and the War Production board had declined to allow Lockheed to continue to upgrade the P-38, before the L model was even deployed, P-38 development had pretty much ended.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
By the way, why do you despise Spitfires?
Fight for the Axis for a full tour in the AvA arena during an ETO setup and you'll see.
Between that and the Spit16s in the MA, I want to go back in time and smother Reginald Mitchell in his crib.
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Originally posted by Treize69
Fight for the Axis for a full tour in the AvA arena during an ETO setup and you'll see.
Between that and the Spit16s in the MA, I want to go back in time and smother Reginald Mitchell in his crib.
Ja, das ist gut. Der Englander ist nicht gut und ist gelb.
(I am sure I butchered that horribly)
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lol... i didnt quite... umm underst.. yea......
what?
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A little bird told me that the US fighter pilots operating in the ETO late-war were mostly equipped with heated suits. Does anyone here know more on this???
(the referrence relates to P51's, RAF pilots being jealous about their brothers in arms not freezing as bad)
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
lol... i didnt quite... umm underst.. yea......
what?
He is expressing a desire to kill the designer of one of the primary fighters that was used in the fight against tyranny in WWII, before that fighter could be designed. I was, in "Dick and Jane" level German, mocking him for it.
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You know I don't mean it Karnak, but you have to admit, by the time the 1944-45 planeset rolls around and you're still seeing nothing but Spitfires, it starts to get REAL old.
2 times through that RPS and I've yet to fight a P-38, and I killed more SpitVs (not counting Is, VIIIs, IXs, XIVs, and XVIs) than P-51s and P-47s combined for both months.
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Originally posted by Angus
A little bird told me that the US fighter pilots operating in the ETO late-war were mostly equipped with heated suits. Does anyone here know more on this???
(the referrence relates to P51's, RAF pilots being jealous about their brothers in arms not freezing as bad)
Yea i was wondering that too Angus... after trying to figure out if the P-38L-5 had a heater, i was caught up in thinking that their suits were plugged into an outlet for heat like those Lancaster crews.
If anyone really knows the answer PLEASE HELP! lol THANKS!
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I took a look in America's 100k and upon first skim through here's all I could find regarding heating;
Heating on early models was considered pretty poor, especialy for the high altitude escort missions being flown in Europe at the time.
It goes on to state the following;
"Cockpit heat was supplied by an intensifier tube in the right engine exhaust (both engines in late models) and controlled by the pilot. Heat outlets were arrange to supply warm air to the windshield and the removeable hatch via a flexible tube. A foot outlet could be closed off by using a heat control on the floor. On late airplanes a heated flying suit plug and rheostat were supplied. Ventilating air entered from a port on the left wing-fuselage fillet. The flow control was in the cockpit. There was no cooling system."
granted it's far cry from stating a certain model or serial # in the production run that incorporated the improved heating. But it does seem that lockheed did take some steps to improve pilot comfort in the later production runs, coupled with the fact that the 38 didn't see much life beyond WW2 seems to be a fairly good chance that the heated flying suit and 2nd intake would have apeared on the L models.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Yea i was wondering that too Angus... after trying to figure out if the P-38L-5 had a heater, i was caught up in thinking that their suits were plugged into an outlet for heat like those Lancaster crews.
If anyone really knows the answer PLEASE HELP! lol THANKS!
All you had to do was ask :)
image shows two 97th FS, 82nd FG P38 pilots in the heated suits. They were using them in the winter of 43-44. This is an MTO 38 group, but no doubt they were being used in England as well. These guys were flying early model 38s at the time, retiring their last G model in May of 44. Guys arriving from the states who had trained in Js were surprised to see them still using Gs and Hs in combat.
I talked to a 94th FS, 1st FG P38 driver one time about this. He said that on some missions he'd wrap old "Yank" magazined around his shins to try and ward off the cold by adding that insulation.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1150165478_heatsuit.jpg)
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.... I was just holding down the fort till you could make an appearence. :)
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Yea i was wondering that too Angus... after trying to figure out if the P-38L-5 had a heater, i was caught up in thinking that their suits were plugged into an outlet for heat like those Lancaster crews.
If anyone really knows the answer PLEASE HELP! lol THANKS!
P-38Ls had a heater. Unfortunately, it was not much different from the heater in 1962 VW Beetle... If you actually detected heat, it was because you were on fire..
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Soulyss
...coupled with the fact that the 38 didn't see much life beyond WW2...
It enjoyed nice long life in service of some foreign air forces. France retired their P-38s (F-5 recce) around '53 and the Honduran Air Force retired their P-38s about '71 or '72. The last time the P-38L saw action was in the "Soccer War" between Honduras and El Salvador in the late '60s.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Widewing
P-38Ls had a heater. Unfortunately, it was not much different from the heater in 1962 VW Beetle... If you actually detected heat, it was because you were on fire..
My regards,
Widewing
HA! It was THAT bad? That's gotta stink. But then again, the P-38L's were pretty well-performing - with their massive climb rate and accel. etc. - which, I'm guessing, made up of the heater defects.
Besides, having a heater plug in your suit must have been better than those early ice-box P-38's trying to fly all the way from the U.S. to Canada to Iceland then to England!
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i remember reading that in the P-38 cockpit your feet fried & everything else froze...what altitudes did they do the transatlantic flights at?
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Quoted with minor amendment from Elite Series Vol. 1 U.S. Army Air Force:1 Development of the F-3 heated flying suit began in late 1943 and was standardized on 19 Feb 1944, It was a well designed 2 piece [ensemble] with an OD cotton/rayon twill jacket and bib-type trousers, and was intended to be worn over both thermal underwear and the standard wool service shirt and trousers, and could be worn under the B-15 jacket and A-15 trousers [both of which were made of brown leather lined with alpaca].
In combination, and with power supplied to the F-3, the combination was expected to protect wearers down to -60 degrees F (-50C).
Prior to 1944, there were less well developed suits creatively identified as the E-1, F-1 and F-2 heated flying suits. My refernce is short on pics of the intermediate suits, but the F-2 (standardized 8/43) is described as being a four piece unit, with electrically heated inserts that went into non-heated trousers and jacket. The electrical clothing was generally used as part of multiple layers, so crewman could have any number of a wide range of permutations. The F-2 and on had a chest level connector with a pigtailed cord that extended to the outer jacket, and allowed heated goggles to be plugged in there.
At first glance, the guys in Guppy's photo look like they're wearing just the inner suit; there is a visible cord but there's no visible thermostat (which arrived with the F-2A -- but I dont know what the placement was). The critical clue, though, is that the photo shows a 1 piece garment. That would mean the guys are wearing either the fairly early F-1 (24 volt, blue) or E-1 (12 volt, grey) -- which entered service all the way back to June 1941. These units had wire woven throughout the material, and could be opened as needed at the crotch without removing the entire garment.
Designers cliamed there was no shock risk to...um....critical components during ...um...relief operations, but I'd sure be nervous with an older suit.....
I think this is the first time my meager library delivered a requested detailed answer....
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Maybe the P-38 was quite similar as Renault 2CV4; many were saying here in Finland that the 2CV4 is cold in winter time so local 2CV4 club decided test it. They put a meter inside and out side the car and measured temperatures. Conclusions were clear: There never was any colder inside car than outside so hypothesis was rejected...
gripen
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It enjoyed nice long life in service of some foreign air forces. France retired their P-38s (F-5 recce) around '53 and the Honduran Air Force retired their P-38s about '71 or '72. The last time the P-38L saw action was in the "Soccer War" between Honduras and El Salvador in the late '60s.
ack-ack
With which country did the P-38L serve with in that war? or should I say F-38L, as by 1947, the USAAF had become the USAF and had redesignated their plane names. Too bad the P-38 retired in US service in 1949 though... had it stayed around for one more year, it would've shown its phenomenal capability in the Korean War. But I guess that huge amount of powder needed in order to maintain them and buy them was too much. After all, money seems to be everything...
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I've often wondered how the 38L would have done in Korea, especially when you read that the main complaint the F-51 pilots had was the vulnerability of the merlin engine to ground fire.
2 engines might have been much more survivable.
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Originally posted by Treize69
I've often wondered how the 38L would have done in Korea, especially when you read that the main complaint the F-51 pilots had was the vulnerability of the merlin engine to ground fire.
2 engines might have been much more survivable.
For that matter, there were over 400 P-47s in reserve and guard service at the start of the Korean War. I have never found an adequate answer as to why they were never deployed to Korea.
I suspect that the fighter mafia within the USAF didn't care for radial-engined fighters. Not sexy enough...
My regards,
Widewing
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I know we had a unit of them (F-47s) here in Syracuse from 1947 on. As often as the 174th FW "Boys from Syracuse" have been deployed since the '80s, I find it odd how rarely they (and the other ANG units) were used before then.
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Dad came home from Korea to McGhee-Tyson in Knoxville, and he often commented on the fact that the Jugs there at McGhee-Tyson would have been a good thing to have over there.
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iirc Taiwanese P-47s had a bit of unofficial action with Chinese MiGs, dont know how it went, but have been hoping to learn more about these obscure skirmishes for a few years
(http://cwlam2000hk.sinaman.com/caf51.files/image020.jpg)
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Originally posted by gripen
Maybe the P-38 was quite similar as Renault 2CV4...
Argh... it's Citroën 2CV4 of course.
gripen
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
With which country did the P-38L serve with in that war? or should I say F-38L, as by 1947, the USAAF had become the USAF and had redesignated their plane names. Too bad the P-38 retired in US service in 1949 though... had it stayed around for one more year, it would've shown its phenomenal capability in the Korean War. But I guess that huge amount of powder needed in order to maintain them and buy them was too much. After all, money seems to be everything...
In the Soccer War between Honduras and El Salvador, the P-38L served with the Honduran Air Force. That little war also saw the F4U, P-51 and a couple of other warbirds in action.
ack-ack
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Ja, das ist gut. Der Englander ist nicht gut und ist gelb.
Yes, That is good. The Englishman is not good and is yellow.
~~Habe Ich das richtig übersetzt?~~
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The B15 jacket was not a leather jacket. It had a green cotton outer layer, wool liner, knit cuffs, a fake fur collar, and two slash pockets, and sometimes a pen pocket on the arm. The one I owned didn't have the pen pocket. The leather jacket you might be thinking of is the classic fighter pilot's A2, which is of a similar overall cut to the B15, although with patch pockets and no fur on the collar, and with sateen lining.
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I did not know P-38s were in the soccer war.....:O :O :O :O
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OT: Can anybody describe what "jagd" means in German? If you don't feel like hijacking the thread, please PM me. Thanks.
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Originally posted by gripen
Argh... it's Citroën 2CV4 of course.
gripen
or renault 4CV ?
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Originally posted by OOZ662
OT: Can anybody describe what "jagd" means in German? If you don't feel like hijacking the thread, please PM me. Thanks.
It's short for Jagdgeschwader, which means Fighter wing.
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directly translated, 'jagd' is 'hunt', but in a collapsed version usually used when attached to other words/phrases. I.e.: 'Jagd Feiber' (yagd-fabuh) means 'hunting fever'. The actual word for 'fighter' in German is 'Fleugzeug' (floig-zoig), but 'jager' (pronounced yay-guh) is more commonly used, but it means 'hunter'.
That's why in AHII 'jabo' is a commonly used collapsed term for 'jagerbomber' (yay-guh-bum-buh) which means 'hunter-bomber' or 'fighter-bomber'.
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i always thought JaBo stood for "Joo are being owned!!!"
lol:O :O :O :O :O
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LOL maybe it really might be.. :lol
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NO P-38s ever saw action in FUTBOL war... ever.
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"fighter' in German is 'Fleugzeug"
Flug = flight, flying
zeug= machine or mechanical tool
So, AFAIK, it means flying machine ie. aircraft, not fighter.
-C+
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Originally posted by straffo
or renault 4CV ?
Ah... that makes no difference; the Renault 4 was probably about as warm as the Citroën 2CV ;)
BTW the Citroën 2CV might not have been warmest car in winter time but it was definately not bad ride on a icey road.
gripen
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Originally posted by Charge
"fighter' in German is 'Fleugzeug"
Flug = flight, flying
zeug= machine or mechanical tool
So, AFAIK, it means flying machine ie. aircraft, not fighter.
-C+
lol technicalites.. ok ok you got me there!
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I didn't mean to nitpick or anything. Just a friendly correction. ;)
-C+
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In the Soccer War between Honduras and El Salvador, the P-38L served with the Honduran Air Force. That little war also saw the F4U, P-51 and a couple of other warbirds in action.
I believe the last P-38's and P-63's were gone by 57.
Last warrior
Air Classics, Jan 2003
Find More Results for: "f4u corsair honduras soccer war "
FUERZA AEREA...
Bent wing warrior
DURING 1969, AN IMPROBABLE AIR WAR TOOK PLACE WHICH PITTED THE LAST OPERATIONAL PROPELLER-DRIVEN FIGHTERS IN DEADLY AIR COMBAT
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