Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Birddogg on June 14, 2006, 11:51:31 AM
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NBC busts Jiffy lube scams.
http://www.nbc4.tv/video/9152183/detail.html
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[size=10]LOL[/size]
Now I know why Americans take their cars for an oil change every 3000 miles. With one in three outlets actually doing the work the customer is paying for, you should get an oil change every 9000 miles!
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/lmao.gif)
Sorry, skuzzy/jackall. No offence intended, but I just couldn't resist!
:p:cool::aok
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I change my own oil and have since 99. Usually around 5000 miles.
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I could not read the link, as they apparently do not like thier trackers being blocked. Wierd. Only 4 tracking cookies and they get all bent out of shape about that? Sheesh.
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I never use Jiffy Lube. Not only are they overpriced, as most of these "quick oil change" places have become, but they do cruddy work. And they try to charge you for their mistakes.
All my business goes to the local full service garage. I buy my gas there, get my oil changed, state inspections, everything. The only thing they dont do is tires.
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And yet the line down the street at jiffy lube is still long
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Jiffy lube isn't the only one ripping people off. This sort of investigative reporting is the only thing that will keep a lot of these companies honest.
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I never understood why anyone would pay for something that takes so little effort and about 10 minutes of your time.
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I change the oil on my bike, but I take my cars elsewhere. I went to a Jiffy Lube in LA once and didn't like the feel, but I've found a great place here in Oregon. It's a Texaco Xpresslube, and here's where I like 'em:
1. They have a checklist that they go over loudly as they're doing the work. I stay with the car, so I can see everything they do under the hood, the only stuff I don't see is what they do in the bay beneath. When they start, they get a laminated sheet and wipe it clean, then each fluid they check, they dab it into the appropriate box on the sheet. When they're done, they show me the sheet so I can see the color of each and what shape each is in. The only thing they've ever suggestive-sold me on was the air filter, and that wasn't based on mileage, they pulled it and showed me the dirt.
I've watched 'em work, checked the fluids on my own after getting out the shop to see if they were ok (it's my butt if a component fails, trust but verify like when pre-flighting), and I'm satisfied that they're a good shop.
If you don't do your own oil, look for a good shop. The good shop might be one of the chains or it might be the local guy, but when you find it, vote with your dollars and go back.
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BTW, the local shops are NOT automatically honest. Anyone remember the local shop that failed my emission test last year and offered to charge me $150 to get the code off the computer w/ ODB-II? When I used my own connection and it showed no error, they backpedaled like crazy and offered to re-test me for free so I wouldn't write a letter to the better biz bureau.
No thanks, I took it elsewhere where it mysteriously passed without problem.
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Whenever I take my truck in for work (I always do oil changes, tires, basic repairs myself) I go to White Tire. Those guys always do their work, and let me watch if I'd like. Definately some quality service guys.
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Unfortunately I have no choice. Our condo complex will not allow any automotive work in the parking lot, and while I could try doing it out in the fields somewhere they have pretty hefty environmental fines if I spill even one drop of oil on the ground here. Its not worth the hassle, when the garage down the street does it for 15 bucks. I support a local business, get my car worked on by actual mechanics, not some kid off the street, and they actually appreciate my business. So when they tell me there's a problem, its because they see me all the time and know my name, not because they want more money out of me. They actually take me to the car and show me the problem, not just give me an estimate.
Sears tried to rip me off last time I bought tires, telling me the CV boots on my Accord were ripped open and the joints would need replaced. I told them no thanks, took it to the garage, had it put up on a lift and found a small crack in 1 of them. The BOOT needs replaced, but it has not failed yet. We reinforced the cracked area with duct tape and made an appointment for later. Ive done it before, its not a job I want to do again. I'm done busting my knuckles on stuff like that. And I sure wont be going to Sears again for anything. At least not that one.
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I normally change my own oil when the weather is good, but I went to a Quick change place last week.
A voice comes from under the car from someone I will refer to as moron #1 for discussion sake stating "sir would you come around to the front of the car?", well I go up there and he asks if the oil change is way overdue because its so black, I tell him that I normally put a pint of Marvel Mystery oil in 500 miles before the change to help clean the sludge, seems to be working. He proceeds to tell me thats not it and I need an engine flush to the tune of $40.00, but for me cuz I'm such a prince $10.00 off, I politley decline.
I'm sitting in the car enjoying my coffee and paper when lo and behold moron #2 walks up to the window and proclaims that my injectors are in dire need of a cleaning and shows me his soot covered finger as proof, believe it or not, they were having a sale on that service too.
I said "no kidding, you got all that crap off an injector?", and while enthusiastically bobing his head up and down I told him it looked a bit like throttle body gunk to me.
Well moron #2 gets this blank look on his face, and then to his credit, quickly recovers and said "ya I ment you need a throttle body cleaning"
Thats what I like, good service at a fair price.
shamus
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I stay with (http://www.lubery.com/store/catalog/PM01015.gif)
Astroglide Water Based Lubricant. Second only to nature, Astroglide personal lubricant is made to enhance the pleasure of intimate activity. The glow-in-the-dark label makes it easy to find, and the bottle''s oval shape means it won''t roll when dropped. Premium pharmaceutical quality, long-lasting, and non-staining. Water-based, safe for use with latex condoms. Also available in Strawberry flavor.
Never seen this "Jiffy Lube" stuff on any shelf...and dudes if it's harsh enough to ruin you CVC Boots or any boots you wear, then Dayum that shoulda been yer first sign...
"Ifluff'n it eats up yer the boots, It'll ruin the coot!"
Some you City Boys really need to visit the Kountry to seek sum edukatin!
Sheesh "Jiffy" lube? S'posed ta take yer time a courtin!
:aok
Mac
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:lol :rofl :cry :rofl :lol
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As I mentioned befer they have flavored ones too (http://www.lubery.com/store/catalog/PM01024.gif)
Heard from friend of mine with a Cousin in the Compnee that they will have more flavors to.
Okra, Coon, Opussum, Doe in Heat and Squirrel.. Mmmmmm.. and you can mix em too!
Imagine Okra Opussum, Doe in Heat Squirrel or just Coon on a hot Summer Prom nite.
See that Jiffy Lube has nothing for ya'll but eattin the boots and trashin the coot.
Free samples too.. signed up all the Kin Folk and the Dawgs... been watchin the mail box now fer days.
:aok
Mac
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I've always changed my own oil. My 98lb little sister changes her own oil. Anyone that uses a "Quickie Change" is very, very gay.
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I'm a mechanic in training, boy I have been waiting to let off some steam about this damn Mercury Mountaineer I had in today. 8 spark plugs(someone used cheap-o ones, put Motorcraft in), new wires because they used cheap crap (again, replaced with Motorcraft), new air filter, she said her left rear blinker wasn't working, checked it multiple times and it worked fine, A/C hose (***** to put back in:mad: ) and overall, it took me 5 hours to do:( . Gotta love where they put those spark plugs, woo boy.
Anyway, yeah, oil change, tire rotation, is $25. Have a good day!
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Had a local garage try to charge me $2,500 for a complete rebuild on an '01 Saturn. It wouldn't pass emissions at all, and the rear O2 sensor was acting kinda funny. So, I break out the wrench and dismantle the rear end in my apartment parking lot. Swap sensors out (got a new one from a friend that won't rape me) and try again... No dice. She failed a compression test. Okay, that narrows it down. Take it in to the garage and they say "It needs a complete rebuild! New pistons, new rings, new everything. We've got a great deal, too! $2,500 or so including labor! Your car will only be gone five weeks, no more!"
I say I'll wait a week. Took it down to another local garage, one highly recommended, and ya know what? Blown (sucked?) intake manifold gasket. That ******' ******* wanted $2,500 for a rebuild when a $75 part/labor charge would've done the job. After that, I take both of my vehicles to my new best friend. He finds out what's honestly wrong with the car/bike, gives me a very reasonable estimate, and gets the job done on-time.
Oh, as for changing oil; I do it myself in front of the apartment manager. As long as I don't make a mess and don't tie up more than just my parking space, she doesn't give a rip.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/global.gif)
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:lol 5 weeks for a rebuild
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Originally posted by rpm
I've always changed my own oil. My 98lb little sister changes her own oil. Anyone that uses a "Quickie Change" is very, very gay.
Many people cant change their own oil due to rules where they live. Most apartment complexes around here wont let you do any mechanical work in their parking lots, same goes with condo's, townhomes, mobile home parks, and covenant controlled communities.
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I've changed an engine on a apartment complex parking lot. No big deal here if you don't leave a mess.
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Originally posted by AWMac
As I mentioned befer they have flavored ones too (http://www.lubery.com/store/catalog/PM01024.gif)
Heard from friend of mine with a Cousin in the Compnee that they will have more flavors to.
Okra, Coon, Opussum, Doe in Heat and Squirrel.. Mmmmmm.. and you can mix em too!
Imagine Okra Opussum, Doe in Heat Squirrel or just Coon on a hot Summer Prom nite.
See that Jiffy Lube has nothing for ya'll but eattin the boots and trashin the coot.
Free samples too.. signed up all the Kin Folk and the Dawgs... been watchin the mail box now fer days.
:aok
Mac
ROFLMAO
Okra coon.........now I got to hab me som of that thar stuff. :aok
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Whatever I can't fix on my Volvo I take to a great Sicilian Volvo & European car mechanic on the other side of town. He has a cheesy looking messy shop and a strong Italian accent highlighted by colorful language, but he knows his stuff extremely well, is 100% honest and for some reason charges much less than the going rate. So I can't explain why I strayed from him and had the old Volvo's catalytic converter replaced at Monroe chain store. They ended up installing the wrong catalytic converter; one that didn't have an oxygen sensor input, so they just left that part off. My wife and father-in-law picked the car up; the next day I immediately noticed the "Check Engine" light. I took the car to my mechanic, Santino, and he immediately explained what they did. I went back to Monroe furious and made a big scene. They offered to fix it but I insisted on a full refund as I wanted it fixed by a knowledgeable mechanic. The manager was off so I ended up talking to the corporate office; they promise to give me a full refund when I bring back their part and after our check clears. Santino fixed the car for 60% of what Monroe charged; I gave him a $30 tip and have vowed to never take my car anywhere else. If you are in the Akron area and own a European car, take it to Santino's at 1266 E. Archwood Ave in Akron.
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Flakbait,
Bad compression hasn't a thing to do with a blown gasket unless it's a head gasket.
Local shops can be a problem too.
When I was going to college, one of the jobs I had was working as a pump jockey at a local gas station. It was right on the freeway through town.
I watched the asst Mgr. pump some gas and check under the hood. He pulled a wire off of the alternator and when the customer started the engine ov course got a dash light for the lack of charge. He "looked" at it for the customer, said the alternator was bad then "changed" it out. The customer lef the car. The car was pu inside the shop and the alternator was changed. The alternator was disassembled and the housing painted nice and pretty then the unit was reinstalled with all the wires attatched. Net profit was about $100.00 for the "new" alternator and labor and this was in 1971 when that was a bunch of money.
I don't trust local shops until I talk to them a bit and some other customers. I also don't leave the vehicle for minor stuff like an oil change. I watch them do the work and make sure it gets changed. I then stop in the lot before leaving and check the vehicle over making sure all the caps are put back on and the filter isn't leaking. I caught one fast lube place that left the dipstick on the top of the engine and the oil fill cap next to it on the intake manifold.
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I got my oil changed at Valvoline today.
"You're a quart low sir. We recommend an engine flush whenever the oil level gets below......"
No thanks.
"Would you like the recommended Valvoline MaxLife oil that....." ($13 more than conventional oil)
No thanks.
"Your air filter appears dirty and we recommend that you change the air filter...."
No thanks. (The air filter was cleaner than my furnace filter, and I am not paying $26 for a filter I can get at Napa for $13.)
I was really hoping that they were going to tell me that my wipers needed replaced because I just installed new ones on Monday. But they didn't. ;)
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Are these stories you are telling really common occurances or are they isolated incidents? Sounds pretty unbelievable to me. I've worked in the industry for years and I've never witnessed deliberate cheating. Bad workmanship is another matter..
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It's more common than it should be. It used to be that the majority of places to get gas had a garage in it as well. You had gas and service there. Now most places are just gas and go self service so not much chance of getting clipped like I saw at that station.
It seems that at least once a year some TV station does a sting and finds some crooked shops out there. If you present the stereotypical dumb driver (female usually, no clue as to how the car works, it just makes a "funny noise") you are open to being taken. If they see you know a bit about it you are less likely to be hit. Make it easy to scam you and someone will take you up on it.
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Btw, this isnt the first time Jiffy Lube has been caught doing stuff like this. They got busted for it back in the 90s too, alot of store managers and regionals lost their jobs over it.
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Back in the 90s, my ex was a manager at the Jiffy Lube in Chapel Hill, NC. All those quick change places, IMO (and experience), are about is sales - making money. The cheap price advertised for the oil change is a ploy to get you to bring your car in and go through their checklists to see what sales they can add-on to the $19.99 oil change to boost their sales and make their quotas for the month. (And they love it when women come in.)
I, as a rule, never go to those types of places because I know that "moron #1 or #2" are going to come out and say "Ma'am - your transmission fluid" or "your serpentine belt needs replaced because yadda yadda yadda". If a person takes their car in for an oil change - that's what they want, pure and simple. If they want more done - I'm sure they have a particular mechanic they take their car to for those types of things.
If you do elect to support these businesses - buyer beware. In the years that monster worked for Jiffy Lube - I heard many stories (also witnessed some) that were horrific. They forgot to replace the oil pan. Ooops! The filter wasn't tightened, but they pulled it out of the bay anyway. In one case - an emergency brake pedal got stuck on a brand new car and instead of alerting the customer/owner of the car to give him the choice of having the dealer fix it or Jiffy Lube - they (the JL people - my ex being the decision maker) decided they could un-stick it themselves. The outcome - the brake pedal did disengage and smacked my ex in the nose - braking it of course - had it been about an inch or two higher could have caused a much more serious possible fatal injury considering the psi of the disengaging pedal with his face right down there in the mix. (No, he wasn't the brightest crayon in the box - notice I refer to him as "ex". )
Also - keep in mind - the employees at these places for the most part are not certified mechanics or do not have a whole lot of training, only the training that shop provides and is geared more toward sales. Most of them are young guys that cannot be employed by a certified shop due to lack of training or experience. It is a place for them to start out and work their way to gaining more experience and know-how. (Not meant as a slam or dig or to offend anyone in any way.)
In closing - I would like to express how grateful I am to my dad for making sure that I knew certain things before I left home - how to change a flat, how to change my oil, how to change my spark plugs, how to test my battery and how to jump a car, how to flush my radiator, etc. It has come in handy over the years and saved me a ton of money. I love him for that and the fact that he still reminds me to check my oil and make sure I change it.
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I always ask for my old parts to be saved and left in my car after service. You can never trust mechanics.
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How do you know they didn't get some busted parts out of the junkpile? Trust nobody.
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:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by rpm
How do you know they didn't get some busted parts out of the junkpile? Trust nobody.
You look. Besides, chances of them keeping the already broken part for your praticular car/model/year are pretty slim.
Asking for parts back really comes in handy when mechanic charges you for parts that werent needed for repair.
Mechanics misdiagnose cars all the time. Its hard to prove that you been ripped off once they ditch your old parts.
I do it, because i saved a bunch of money that way.
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I've heard stories that in US it's common to put el-cheapo mineral oils to cars. Is that true? My car has a 20 000km (12500miles) service interval with no oil changes in between.
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You COULD go that far between changes, but something to consider: The efficacy of your oil and air filters. Anything that gets past the air filter gets into the oil, and the oil filter is basically a sieve that lets just about anything past.
While in your oil, that dirt is an abrasive. How black is it after 5000? 8000? There's cumulative wear over time.
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Depends on the area you drive in. The desert Southwest of the USA is about as dusty a place as you can find (Yakima Firing Center in Washington being as bad or worse) and the particulate counts in the air lead to earlier oil changes as the engine ingests the stuff. A non dusty environment adds less abrasives into the engine.
Don't forget the combustion by products, if you use a medium to high sulfur fuel you get sulfur oxides in the oil. Short term driving also adds water condensation. The combination makes sufuric acid in the crankcase. Bad stuff to leave sitting in the engine, that's why it's important to drive enough to get the oil hot to burn off the water in the crakcase.
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Yep, good point on the byproducts.
One device that I think sounds like a good way to improve engine life (especially for engines that get a lot of abuse or run at high loads) is the Fram bypass filters. A friend of mine swears by them.
You have the normal oil filter and everything, and the fram is a cartridge that installs elsewhere in your engine bay. It gets oil from the oil recovery system, drips it through a super fine filter (usually a roll of toilet paper, unscented I imagine) and feeds back into the oil pan. It's not "in-line" with the oil system, so there's no high pressure through it, but as the engine runs, all the oil eventually gets run through it and it scrubs it clean. In each car I've seen that has these, you can check the oil any time and it was always clear, just like a new car.
He had an interesting regime that I'm not sure I'd follow, but it was pretty fascinating. Every 3000 miles, he'd replace the toilet paper and add a quart or so of oil (however much to replace the oil that was in the toilet paper when he took it out) and that was it. He never bothered with anything else, and he drove like this for 150,000 miles as of the last time I talked to him. He has great compression, his engine runs clean, and he never has any trouble with it (it's a Volkswagen pickup, I think, the water cooled one? Haven't seen it in a couple years).
Results count, but I'd want to know more about oil chemical breakdown and whatnot before I did it, but I sure do like the idea of clean oil that doesn't abrade my engine.
I'll have to research it more by the time I'm ready to put an engine in my plane (Oh, it WILL happen, I just need to get back to work on it).
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
I've heard stories that in US it's common to put el-cheapo mineral oils to cars. Is that true? My car has a 20 000km (12500miles) service interval with no oil changes in between.
I have no idea where that rumor/idea came from Ripley. All my life around cars and I have never seen nor know anyone who would sabotage thier car with mineral oil. Did you grow up watching the Beverly Hillbillies? :D
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I do all my own maintenance & always have. You can use some high quality synthetics & stretch your oil changes; I've heard 30,000 miles tossed around but I have never verified what oil that would be possible with & wouldn't try it on my own vehicle. I use Mobil-1 & change my oil when it gets dirty, whether that's 7 miles or 7,000.
My odometer is for tracking mileage, not for telling me my oil is dirty. When my oil begins to lose it's clarity & gets brown it's gone.;)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
You COULD go that far between changes, but something to consider: The efficacy of your oil and air filters. Anything that gets past the air filter gets into the oil, and the oil filter is basically a sieve that lets just about anything past.
While in your oil, that dirt is an abrasive. How black is it after 5000? 8000? There's cumulative wear over time.
CB, I'm sure all this is taken into account by the onboard computers to be found in many modern cars. The number of engine starts, especially cold starts within a given mileage, are all taken into account, as are the driver's driving techniques - how hard the car is driven etc. I've done about 13,500 miles in my A3, and the service indicator is calling for service in 5000 miles (or 545 days - whichever comes first).
I've just added ½ a litre of oil yesterday. I've had a hard time finding it because it was Castrol SLX Long Life 2, which was a 0w-30 synthetic oil. This has now been replaced by Long Life 3, a 5w-30 synthetic oil. I bought 2 litres of it yesterday - cost me £24. :(
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beet... we have synthetic oil that is good for 15,000 mile oil changes and.... it is extremely easy to come by.
And...it is for regular engines... not diesels. Problem is that I see that there are no oil filters that reccomend such high entervals.
lazs
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There's a reason no one cheats brit car owners out of oil changes. The cars won't hold oil long enough for it to get old. :p
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Originally posted by Brenjen
I do all my own maintenance & always have. You can use some high quality synthetics & stretch your oil changes; I've heard 30,000 miles tossed around but I have never verified what oil that would be possible with & wouldn't try it on my own vehicle. I use Mobil-1 & change my oil when it gets dirty, whether that's 7 miles or 7,000.
My odometer is for tracking mileage, not for telling me my oil is dirty. When my oil begins to lose it's clarity & gets brown it's gone.;)
I'd be worried if my oil wouldn't get brown. It means that the oil is doing one of it's duties, binding impurities. If you want to have clear oil, then buy the cheapest brand.
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Originally posted by lazs2
And...it is for regular engines... not diesels.
These days manufacturers usually recommend the same oil for gasoline and diesel models. Regular Mobil 1 and similar oils are usually good for 12,500 miles on both engine types. When going over 12,500 miles special oils are usually reguired(made to manufacturers specs, not API) Diesels tend to have a bit shorter service intervals.
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Originally posted by mora
I'd be worried if my oil wouldn't get brown. It means that the oil is doing one of it's duties, binding impurities. If you want to have clear oil, then buy the cheapest brand.
LOL...you can run the cheap stuff & let it get dirty if you want, I'm not going to.
Mobil-1 oil & Mobil-1 filter; & if the Mobil filters are out of stock & I don't feel like driving to another parts house I get Wix; Fram can shove it where the sun don't shine & take those cheap oils along for the ride.
Mobil & Wix use the most filter media & metal bypass valves, Fram uses the least media & platic bypass valves, the Fram filters get clogged & use the bypass with fresh oil...sometimes the bypass valves are stuck in the open or closed position! That's really good for an engine. What's really funny is, the folks who make Fram filters make a lot of re-labeled filters; use a lathe to cut open some new filters once & you'll see things in a whole new light.
Just use Mobil-1 & you'll never go back. I used to use Castrol Syntec & was a firm believer but not anymore. Synthetics have come a long way...try them, your engine will thank you. (but don't let it get dirty....change it) BTW that black crap isn't dirt so much as it is carbon from the burnt fuel. Unburnt fuel will break down oil, so if your oil is black & stinks like gasoline it's no good.
Edit: I forgot to mention the nature of the filter media has a lot to do with how easily it get clogged as well, the Frams use a very fine material with very tiny pores the Mobil & Wix brands use a larger pore material & just put a larger ammount in the housing.
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That was exactly my point. The cheap oils are no good. If the oil doesn't get dirty it's not working as it should. You cannot judge the oil change interval by visually inspecting the oil.
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Originally posted by lazs2
beet... we have synthetic oil that is good for 15,000 mile oil changes and.... it is extremely easy to come by.
Lazs, the problem was that the VW/Audi group has just changed over from using Castrol SLX Long Life 2 - a 0w-30 synthetic oil, to Castrol SLX Long Life 3, a 5w-30 synthetic oil. Not all Audi dealerships had been supplied with the latter, but I was able to get 2 litres at my local VW dealer. And...it is for regular engines... not diesels.
Please review VW's own article about LongLife Servicing and Castrol SLX Long Life oil: http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/Longlife_servicing.pdf (.PDF document; needs Adobe reader) In that document, you will see at the bottom of page 1 that this oil is recommended for both petrol and diesel engines, as Mora has already pointed out. Apparently, VW engines (and my Audi 2.0 TDi engine is the same as the one used in the VW Golf 2.0TDi) have sensors which continually monitor the quality of the oil. This engine can, under some circumstances, run to 30,000 miles without servicing and without oil change. That would be for VERY high mileage users. My diesel cars have typically called for oil change and service at 18,000 miles. Read the .PDF document, Lazs - it's all in there, although there's no specific mention of oil filters. It just says that many components are far longer lasting than they used to be. There's a reason no one cheats brit car owners out of oil changes. The cars won't hold oil long enough for it to get old. - lukster
What?! Are you saying that British cars leak oil? Well, I wouldn't know. I don't drive British cars, and I've never had a single spot of oil land on my driveway. Synthetics have come a long way...try them, your engine will thank you. (but don't let it get dirty....change it)
Read that .PDF document I've posted. ^ The engine in my car has sensors which monitor the oil quality, so there's no need to use the finger in the air (or dipstick in the air) method of assessing when your oil's due to be changed. And as Mora says - if the oil is staying nice and clean, it's probably leaving your engine nice and dirty. So I would say that it's normal for the oil to be a darker colour when it's halfway through its life.
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Sending units never fail and are always accurate. Oil lights are much better than guages. Technology overcomes common sense........................ .......................
............................. ............................. ............................. ............................. ....
Madonna is a virgin.
Richard Simmons is macho.
Eminem will be great as Paladin.
Russia is a true ally.
Bin Laden is a nice guy.
Kerry would make a great prez.
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Well... I do use mobil one but I still change it often. It's cheap enough... bout 23 bucks for a 5 quart container. Oil contains additives and detergents (what mora was saying) they clean the engine and the oil gets black (diesels get black quicker) I don't want all that dirt in solution floating around too long. Plus... the additives wear out, not the oil.
most of this is less important with fuel injection tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by mora
That was exactly my point. The cheap oils are no good. If the oil doesn't get dirty it's not working as it should. You cannot judge the oil change interval by visually inspecting the oil.
Cheap oil gets dirty too. Anyone who doesn't visually inspect the oil & touch it, smell it & listen to the sound of the engine is inviting a break-down. Trust your superior european sensors & I'll trust my American brain.
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Mora mora mora, the bypass filter I was talking about removes the dirt that the oil picked up. It's fine for the oil to grab the dirt, even better if a filter can then remove it. That dirt is an abrasive, and it's slowly sandblasting your engine from the inside.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
Trust your superior european sensors & I'll trust my American brain.
^ Honorary member of jackall's Flat Earth Society! :)
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:lol Well not really but sensors fail, my senses won't. I'd like to cut open an oil filter that had filtered 30,000 miles worth of dirt. Or better yet, cut open one that the sensor is telling you still has good oil going through it & see if it is still passing the oil or if it has switched to the bypass valve.
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Originally posted by Brenjen
:lol Well not really but sensors fail, my senses won't. I'd like to cut open an oil filter that had filtered 30,000 miles worth of dirt. Or better yet, cut open one that the sensor is telling you still has good oil going through it & see if it is still passing the oil or if it has switched to the bypass valve.
It's sensors plural! I feel rather certain that there's some built in redundancy - as in aircraft applications - and that if one sensor failed, it's readout would differ from the other sensor(s), resulting in a warning condition.
30,000 miles worth of dirt? High mileage usage generates less "dirt" per mile, so a 30,000 mile filter might not look any dirtier than a 10,000 mile filter on a low mileage vehicle. But let's defer to Mora on this.
Fact is, these long service intervals are the way of things on modern cars in Europe. It's done with the full approval of the vehicle manufacturer and is backed up by warranty. Besides, I haven't heard any horror stories of "engine failure due to oil sensor malfunction".
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It's sensors plural! - 30,000 miles worth of dirt? High mileage usage generates less "dirt" per mile
I think I did type sensors plural :p
& as far as the other...whatever dude. I'll keep my mobil-1 & change it when it gets dirty; I have never had an oil related failure on any vehicle I have ever owned, not one. You just rely on whatever it is you rely on & we'll both be fine I'm sure.
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Well - OK, you did say "cut open one that the sensor is telling you still has good oil going through it", but that's OK. As long as you are happy with what you are doing, don't change the habits of a lifetime!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Mora mora mora, the bypass filter I was talking about removes the dirt that the oil picked up. It's fine for the oil to grab the dirt, even better if a filter can then remove it. That dirt is an abrasive, and it's slowly sandblasting your engine from the inside.
It won't hurt for sure, I'm not sure if it's very usefull in practise. It doesn't usually matter if the engine will last 300k or 500k miles. Btw, if I was your friend I'd still do an oil change every 2 years. Even the best oils oxidize, and 2 years is the usually the maximum recommended motor oil change interval.
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Originally posted by beet1e
^ Honorary member of jackall's Flat Earth Society! :)
Actually the world is flat...within the curved space caused be the gravitation of the earth's mass.
It is the curvature of space itself we percieve as the curvature of the Earth.
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Here is a true life example of why you should not trust a sensor to determine when to change your oil.
Aviation is probably the one place where oil changes are made more frequently and with more regularity than anywhere else.
You have to change your oil on time or you are flying a plane that is illegal.
A number of years back a company came out with a synthetic oil for aircraft. They tested it and then put it on the market. Keep in mind most aircraft have to change their oil every 50 hours of use and many every 25 hours of use. So no one was doing anything stupid like doubling their time between changes.
After a few hundred hours of use planes with this synthetic oil began to have engine failures. The oil was great. It was better than mineral oil.
The reason?
Seems the new oil did not have effective lead dispersants in it and lead deposits were accumulating that eventually plugged oil lines.
Do you know that unless your oil heats to above 212 F during a drive it will not boil off any moisture that gets into it? Also acids can accumulate in oil that can corrode things like your crankshaft in no time if they are not flushed out.
Change your oil. It may still be lubricating fine. But that is not the only thing that is important.
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Originally posted by Habu
Here is a true life example of why you should not trust a sensor to determine when to change your oil.
Are you saying that you know more about my car than the people who made it? I've already posted a .PDF article about Long Life oil ^ written by VW/Audi themselves. The vehicle handbook tells me to monitor the service indicator, which will alert me when service and oil change become due. It also says that the oil quality is continually monitored by sensors.
Now, given the choice between the following, which would you choose? - Acting upon the advice of the very people who built the car, and whose recommended service and oil change intervals are supported by their own warranty, or...
- Acting upon the recommendation of a few guys in the AH O'Club?
Erm... tough choice here......... Mmmm..OK, I think I'll go with VW/Audi! :aok:cool: Do you know that unless your oil heats to above 212 F during a drive it will not boil off any moisture that gets into it?
"Boil" being the operative word??? My Golf VR6 had an oil temperature indicator. In normal running it would go to 96°. (100° = 212F) That's plenty hot enough for water to be evaporated out. Water will evaporate at room temperature, never mind 212F.
So, you don't agree with the use of sensors? I guess you won't like the Boeing 787 Dreamliner anti-turbulence design then. I read about it today in the Sunday Times: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2230615.html The 787 Dreamliner, which is expected to enter service in 2008, will have sensors that detect strong gusts of wind and automatically adjust the movement of the aircraft to prevent it from being buffeted around.
.
.
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Sensors on the 787, which will have a capacity of 250 passengers, will identify changes in air pressure and determine “the angle of attack”. The aircraft’s flaps and wing tips will then be moved accordingly so they counter vertical gusts, while the rudder will be adjusted to reduce side-to-side “tail-wagging”.
Well, well! S-s-s-sensors! I guess you and Brenjen could get together and redesign this aircraft to have a little door that the pilot can open to stick his hand out, and "feel" the turbulence!
:lol
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Originally posted by beet1e
^ Honorary member of jackall's Flat Earth Society! :)
The Society has refused an offer to speak at The Qatar Cafe For Lunch Bunch annual meeting. :)
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I don't believe that the sensors analyze the oil.
What they do is extrapolate a result based on how hard and often and how many starts and that sort of thing... they figure out how badly the additives in the oil may be depleted or how dirty (if everything goes just right) the oil would be under those conditions and then changes the recomendations they make based on that.
I have no idea how accurate they are but they would certainly be a useful tool.
I would not forgo checking the oil levels manualy or changing oil based on reasonable intervals based on the sensors tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't believe that the sensors analyze the oil.
But until yesterday, you didn't believe that long life oil could be used in diesel engines.
And I'm guessing that you haven't read the .PDF document I posted about Long Life oil. Not only does this state that sensors continually monitor the oil quality, but that the system will detect if more than ½ litre of non-longlife oil has been added, and will shorten the service interval accordingly. Are you trying to tell me that this document, produced by Volkswagen Audi Group, is a pack of lies?? What they do is extrapolate a result based on how hard and often and how many starts and that sort of thing...
Is this a statement of fact? Sorry Lazs, but I'll have to say to you what I said to Habu. I'll continue to take my advice from V.A.G. - the people who made my car and back it up with a 3 year/60,000 mile warranty, if I have it serviced at the recommended (18,000 mile) interval. I think this approach is going to work better for me in the long run, than technical tips from the AH O'Club.
Lazs, I don't doubt that you're a fountain of knowledge on legacy V8 engines designed in the 1960s or earlier, and whose ignition systems used a crude arrangement of ignition coil with a low tension circuit that was controlled by a set of "points" and a condensor. But that's all old hat - as it was by the end of the 1970s, and technology has moved on. Time to move with it... :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would not forgo checking the oil levels manualy or changing oil based on reasonable intervals based on the sensors tho.
Dont get a Merc then, the newer ones don't have an oil stick at all. What is the "reasonable interval" then? Many seem to insist that it's 3k miles for some unspecified reason.
Question for those who obey the "reasonable" oil change intervals.. What would be the reasonable oil change interval for the MB Actros (http://www2.mercedes-benz.co.uk/content/unitedkingdom/mpc/mpc_unitedkingdom_website/en/home_mpc/trucks/home/products/new_trucks/actros.html) truck? Accoding to the manufacturer the oil change interval is between 62k and 75k miles.
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Originally posted by mora
What is the "reasonable interval" then? Many seem to insist that it's 3k miles for some unspecified reason.
Mora - it's the interval *they* see as right and proper, based on working with engines that utilise 50 year old technology.
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Actually every reciprocating internal combustion engine uses the same basic technology. Flailing pistons in cylinders burning hydrocarbons and the combustion chanber is sealed with spring steel piston rings. All of this is lubricated and semi cooled with oil. The OTTO cycle is still the main ingredient in almost every motor vehicle in existance and it is far older than 50 years old. But don't let that spoil your inflated sense of superiority beetle.
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So that's the point then? Because the principle is the same, the interval should the same.. Should the modern jet engines be overhauled as often as ME-262's were then? Afterall the engines have the same operating principle.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Actually every reciprocating internal combustion engine uses the same basic technology. Flailing pistons in cylinders burning hydrocarbons and the combustion chanber is sealed with spring steel piston rings. All of this is lubricated and semi cooled with oil. The OTTO cycle is still the main ingredient in almost every motor vehicle in existance and it is far older than 50 years old. But don't let that spoil your inflated sense of superiority beetle.
Wot Mora said ^ and...
...my 1972 air cooled beetle needed fresh oil at least once every 3000 miles. It had a no frills basic engine, and used a straight SAE 30 oil. Over the winter, my repairman even suggested a 1500 mile oil change interval, while the car was not being used much.
And then we have the modern day diesels that can run (in some cases) 30,000 miles without needing an oil change. I don't achieve that with my driving pattern, but I can go 18,000 miles between services.
So what's changed? Well... my Audi diesel engine was designed in the new millennium, and the beetle engine was designed in the 1960s or earlier. The two engines are completely different, Maverick. Nothing to do with my "inflated sense of superiority". You see there's this little thing called "progress". Helluva concept, and I don't expect you to assimilate it on the first read.
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beetle, it still all comes down to the same thing. Typically 4 cycles to make the engine go. The same basic components in them, far older than 50 years, new metalurgy and or improvements included. The improvements do not change the basic function or how it works. You and mora are reading far far more into my post than what was there, no big surprise. There has been no major improvement of the entire process even in your audi, but I don't expect you to understand it either.
The oil still does the same functions, clean, lube and cool. Change it in accordance with environment, usage you put it through and what the manufacturer says.
If you really want to know the condition of the oil and use it to the fullest extent of it's useful life, take a sample and have it analyzed. A good lab with a gas chromatograph spectrometer will tell you the condition of the oil and if it is safe to continue to use it based on additives, contaminates and how well it's being filtered. They may advise you to replace the oil and filter or just the filter. They can also tell you based on a series of analysis of your oil over a period of time the condition of your bearings, rings and some other components in the engine due to the things that find their way into the oil. I don't believe there is that kind of equipment in any motor vehicle.
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BEWARE THE JIFFEY LUUUUUBE!!!1
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Originally posted by Maverick
If you really want to know the condition of the oil and use it to the fullest extent of it's useful life, take a sample and have it analyzed. A good lab with a gas chromatograph spectrometer will tell you the condition of the oil and if it is safe to continue to use it based on additives, contaminates and how well it's being filtered. They may advise you to replace the oil and filter or just the filter. They can also tell you based on a series of analysis of your oil over a period of time the condition of your bearings, rings and some other components in the engine due to the things that find their way into the oil. I don't believe there is that kind of equipment in any motor vehicle.
Thanks, but I don't think there's any need for all that. VW/Audi states the position quite clearly in that .PDF I linked further up ^ and that their engines have sensors for monitoring the condition of the oil. Their recommended service schedule is backed up by a 60,000 mile warranty, so I don't see the need for taking a sample of my engine oil to a lab for analysis when the standard equipment in the engine is sensitive enough that it can even detect if non LongLife oil has been added, and will adjust the service interval accordingly if it has. There has been no major improvement of the entire process even in your audi, but I don't expect you to understand it either.
Well that's just good old fashioned BS, I'm afraid. Back in the 1960s, most cars on the road in Britain had a top speed of no more than about 80mph. 100mph was the yardstick of a "performance car". Nowadays, virtually any car can do 100mph, even diesels, now that turbochargers are pretty much standard. There have been huge improvements in fuel economy too, in case you hadn't noticed. Who would have believed back in the 1960s, that we would have cars available with a top speed of over 130mph which could achieve 50mpg or more. Who, in the 1960s, would have believed that such a feat was possible with a diesel engine? Indeed, if you would look to Replicant's post (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180426), you'll see that diesel powered car has just won the Le Mans 24h. An Audi, no less!
"No major improvement of the entire process" ??? Which rock have you been under for the last 30 years?
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beetle go jump in the lake, really. It's obvious that you really don't have much of a clue as to what makes a reciprocating engine work. You are not going to convince me that internal engines that because there has been some refinements that they are radically different and not the same kind of critter. Now that is BS. They all use pistons, rings cylinders, valves intake and exhaust. That has remained the same for well over 75 to 100 years. Even diesels use the same internal parts. Nothing basic has changed in the design.
Trying to discuss something with you is like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes my time and you still can't sing.
You can even have the last word. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by mora
Should the modern jet engines be overhauled as often as ME-262's were then? Afterall the engines have the same operating principle.
LOL Mora! :aok I couldn't help noticing how your question was ignored. ;)
And... we've still not been given that as yet unspecified reason for the 3k oil changes even on the latest engines. Perhaps we need to allow more time for a reason to be made up.
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Long ago... PG&E (the power company) had a policy of never changing oil in their fleet vehicles.
The reasoning was that they got rid of the vehicles every 3-6 years in any case and all the depreciation on them was the main thing in any case soooo...
A vehicle that smoked a little or was down on compression was worth very little less than a good one at auction.... and... they saved all that money on maitenence. It was rare that they would have a complete engine failure due to such a maintenance plan.
Beet and others are probly right.... for as long as they are going to own the cars..... they are wasting money on frequent oil changes..
Any problems caused by running oil with depleted additives and grit in it will not be their problem as they will have traded the car in long before the effects are apparent.
lazs
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Originally posted by Maverick
They all use pistons, rings cylinders, valves intake and exhaust. That has remained the same for well over 75 to 100 years. Even diesels use the same internal parts. Nothing basic has changed in the design.
Maverick this is BS and you know it. Even if the basic principle is 'kind of' the same (hint: direct injection or common rail injection), the design, materials, engineering, power management,... of a modern engine have nothing in common anymore with one from 50-60 yrs ago.
Changing oil every 3000 miles surely won't hurt the engine, but it is probably an overkill... unless you plan to drive 300,000 miles with it from the start.
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Lazs - I'll give you 10/10 for effort on your latest answer.
But your explanation doesn't tell us why the recommended fresh oil interval has changed. Back in the 1970s, it used to be 3000 miles. Now it is much more, for both petrol and diesel engines. What has changed in the technology to achieve this?
According to you, all that's changed is that these long intervals between oil changes simply defer problems until the original owner has traded his vehicle. I call BS on that. And the reason I call BS is that new car warranties in the days of the 3000 mile oil change interval (the 1970s) were for 1 year or 12,000 miles, whichever came first. Now, with greatly extended oil change intervals, the new car warranty is typically 3 years or 60,000 miles. Cars are lasting longer, and car components are lasting longer. Read the freaking .PDF document!
How do explain that cars are lasting longer if, according to you, grit and other contaminants are allowed to circulate in the oil, which was never the case in the days of the 3000 mile oil changes, 30 years ago?
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Beetle, it's true, cars are more reliable and last longer now. But the car companies still need to sell more new cars. Why would they tell you the procedures that will ensure that a modern car never needs to be replaced?
I'm not suggesting that obsolescence is designed into the cars, but if you replace "excellent" maintenance with "good enough", you can sell more cars. Nothing scheming, they're offering the same automotive lifetimes that they've always offered. Of course, if you used the old maintenance schedules, that lifetime would be significantly longer....
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CB - if it's just a case of selling more cars by encouraging people to ruin their engines prematurely, then why weren't car makers recommending 18,000 mile oil change intervals back in the 1970s?
I don't buy that argument, certainly not for quality car makes. If a particular car maker produced a car which required service every 20k miles, but was knackered after 75k, it would not do their reputation any good at all, and the car buying public would go elsewhere.
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Beetle, I'm saying that the cars have the same lifetime now as they did back then. Even though the quality has improved so much, the cars will generally last the same because the maintenance intervals have increased. If they had said "go 18k between changes" back in the 70s, then the cars would have had dramatically lowered lifespans, and that would have shown up.
Capiche?
You yourself have asserted that automotive engineering quality has gone up so much in the last 50 years, what's YOUR explanation for cars having similar lifetimes now as they did back then?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Beetle, I'm saying that the cars have the same lifetime now as they did back then.
No, I'm afraid you contradicted yourself. Because In your earlier post, you said Beetle, it's true, cars are more reliable and last longer now.
- or maybe there's something I'm not capiching in your latest post.
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Originally posted by deSelys
Maverick this is BS and you know it. Even if the basic principle is 'kind of' the same (hint: direct injection or common rail injection), the design, materials, engineering, power management,... of a modern engine have nothing in common anymore with one from 50-60 yrs ago.
Changing oil every 3000 miles surely won't hurt the engine, but it is probably an overkill... unless you plan to drive 300,000 miles with it from the start.
Ok nothing in common. Lets see.
Does your automobile reciprocating engine have pistons, pistons that have piston rings to seal the cylinder?
Are those pistons contained in cylinders?
Are the pistons connected to connecting rods which then are connected to a crankshaft?
Are those cylinders contained in an engine block block? Are not those same cylinders capped by a cylinder head?
Are the cylinders provided air flow by way of intake valves?
Is the exhaust removed from the cylinder via exhaust valves?
Are the valves operated by way of a camshaft with or without valve pushrods and lifters? Are not the valves kept in place by valve guides and closed by valve springs? Is not the timing of the valve action kept correct by either gears or a chain?
Does your automobile engine not produce power by compressing then burning the fuel air mixture?
In the case of a gasoline, alcohol or combination fuel engine is not the burning of the fuel air mixture innitaited by a spark plug?
In the case of a diesel engine, is the fuel air mixture not ignited by compression?
Is the cycle of producing power not intake, compress, burn then exhaust?
Assuming you drive a 4 cycle engine does it not take 2 revolutions of the crankshaft to fully complete the above cycle?
Does the oil in your automobile still not lubricate all the moving parts, clean and at least partially cool the engine?
Please explain to me how your engine does not do these things. If they do not then I can accept your premise that there is "nothing in common" with the reciprocating internal combustion engines of 75 to 100 years ago.
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Originally posted by beet1e
No, I'm afraid you contradicted yourself. Because In your earlier post, you said - or maybe there's something I'm not capiching in your latest post.
You're right, I didn't put that clear. Cars last longer now if you do maintenance/oil changes as often as in the old days. I think they last the same as before if you use the manufacturer suggested guidelines.
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"And... we've still not been given that as yet unspecified reason for the 3k oil changes even on the latest engines."
What is a modern engine that the manufacturer actually recommends oil changes every 3000 miles? Of the cars I've owned, the shortest recommended interval was 5K, and the last two both recommended 7500 between oil changes--and one of those was a 1990 model with an engine designed in the mid 1980's, so it wasn't exactly all that modern.
Places like Jiffy Lube recommend every 3K miles, but they want to make money so their motivation is obvious. Some individuals change it that often not because they necessarily "have to", but it certainly won't hurt and it gaurantees that the oil is in near-perfect condition.
If your car has a 60,000 mile warranty, you could probably never change the oil and it'd still be running after 60K miles. It probably wouldn't reach 200K, though. As others have said, if you don't plan on driving your car for as long as possible, frequent maintenence is likely wasted money.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Chairboy
You're right, I didn't put that clear. Cars last longer now if you do maintenance/oil changes as often as in the old days. I think they last the same as before if you use the manufacturer suggested guidelines.
They last much longer now. In the 80's a typical gasoline engine lasted 200,000 miles(for a typical 1,5 liter engine). Nowdays they usually last atleast 300,000 miles. The typical oil change interval being 6000 miles back then and 17,500 miles today. Truck engines with an oil change interval up to 75,000 miles last 100,000,000 miles easily. Anyway I've never seen a properly maintained car coming to the end of it's service life because of engine wear. Other crucial parts will fail way before the engine. A couple of years ago I saw a 5 year old Volvo S70 2.4(former taxi) which had 450,000 miles on it. The engine was in perfect working order, and there was no engine related work in the service history, all services being done at the dealership I worked at. The service interval on that model was "only" 12,500 miles though.
A former teacher of mine works for a local technical magazine. He disassembles engines after 60,000 miles tests and measures all moving parts. According to his reports there's usually hardly any measurable wear in cylinders, pistons, camshafts, cranckshafts etc. after 60,000 miles. this was not the case 15 years ago. The trend has been continually downward, even when the service intervals have tripled in the last 15 years.
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Yep. Especialy considering the known frequent failures of sensors/conducters/amplifiers, etc..
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beet... I did not say that nothing has changed. metalurgy is more precise as is machining process. Computer controlled fuel injection does less to wash the oil off the cylinder walls.The motors are better to begin with. Also.. I believe that motor oils have improved. Way back when, It was considered Ok to go 4-5K between oil changes in some circumstances.
My point is that it is probly wise to shorten the reccomended maintenance intervals if you plan on keeping the car for a very long time and...
That you can actually lengthen them on cars that you plan to get rid of in 3 or four years anyway... let the new guy worry about it.
No matter what... the longer you keep the same oil in the motor the more water and grit and acid in it and the less of the additives it needs will be in it. How much it hurts is debateable.
The sensors on your car do not analyze your oil... they figure out what type of driving conditions (as best they can) you are putting the car through and make a recomendation based on that.
lazs
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I think the "I know better" attitude expressed my Americans comes from the distrust everyone seems to have on "professionals" in the US(which seems to be well justified). It's a very sad state of affairs if you can't even trust a car mechanic, even at a dealership. Haven't they received any training or are they all ex-convicts or what? A mechanic doesn't seem to be a respectable profession in the US. What kind of education does a typical mechanic have?
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Originally posted by lazs2
The sensors on your car do not analyze your oil... they figure out what type of driving conditions (as best they can) you are putting the car through and make a recomendation based on that.
lazs
Actually they sometimes do. It's common on heavy trucks, but less so on passenger cars. I can't give an answer how they work though, because I've no idea. If there's such a sensor on Beet1e's car I don't know, I might actually call V.A.G importer tomorrow and ask if I have time.
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Originally posted by lazs2
The sensors on your car do not analyze your oil... they figure out what type of driving conditions (as best they can) you are putting the car through and make a recomendation based on that.
I agree the engine management system analyses factors like the number of starts, especially cold starts, but you seem convinced that the sensors do not analyse the quality of the oil. This flies in the face of what VW/Audi say themselves. But as Mora has observed ^ there seems to be a trait amongst US posters that provides a kneejerk reaction to any info that doesn't tally with what they want to believe. If VAG tells me that it's OK to run the same oil for 18000 miles because the sensors will monitor its quality, then I see no reason to disbelieve it. The American stance, however, is Reverse Dogmatism™ - the statement is adjudged to be false because it's not what you want to hear, and then the search begins to find reasons to justify that stance - in this case, it's deemed to be the car maker who "wants me to wear my engine out prematurely" so that they can "sell more cars". Well, I don't believe it, and Mora's findings reinforce my belief.
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Same thing, day in and day out.
Beet, you put a lot of faith in the owners manual. Fine. Mine says 5,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first, between oil changes, so does my Wife's owner manual.
In both, there is a caveate. And I quote from my manual, "The recommended oil and filter change frequency is based on average driving conditions. If you operate the vehicle in extreme conditions for long periods of time, it is recommended to shorten the distance and/or time between the oil and filter replacement schedule."
According to your own logic, I should be changing my oil every 3,000 miles or 4 months, because the owner's manual says to. As I do drive in extreme conditions most of the year.
These threads with the same repetitive stuff going back and forth is rather boring. Somebody want to explain the point of this?
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The original poster of the thread is the stone dropped into the pond, we are all but the ripples.
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Wow Maverick, I'm sooooooooo impressed. You should write a book for toddlers about how combustion engines work (one made in soft plastic pages so it won't be damaged if they chew it).
Now, if you read my post again, you'll notice that i said that the DESIGN (need those caps to catch your attention), the MATERIALS, the ENGINEERING the POWER MANAGEMENT,... have nothing in common with those dinosaurs.
I'll help you with the first item of your list:
is the piston of a modern Audi designed like one of a Ford T?
are they made from the same alloys?
are they engineered with the same tools?
is there electronic in the Ford T preventing the driver to redline the engine?
...
And please remind me how many trucks in the 30's had a direct injection or a common rail injection diesel engine.
EDIT: I think that Chairboy has nailed it about the longevity of cars not having increased along the years like performances
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Originally posted by deSelys EDIT: I think that Chairboy has nailed it about the longevity of cars not having increased along the years like performances [/B]
I don't think it has increased either. The longevity of engines has IMO. A car will be usuallly scrapped long before the engine wears out.
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deSelys,
What you are saying is just because there have been changes it's all a totally different machine even though it operates in the same manner using the same components but of differnt materials. Same for the function of oil, since there is synthetic out now it bears no relation in function to non synthetic?
If that blows your dress up have at it.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Same for the function of oil, since there is synthetic out now it bears no relation in function to non synthetic?
If that blows your dress up have at it.
In other applications like transmissions synthetic oils can be used even 7 times longer than mineral oils, the most important reason is their resistancy of oxidization and oil sludge. Because of the enviroment in an internal combustion engine it can be used only 2 to 3 times longer. The are also other developments in oils that have increased the oil change interval further. The "longlife" oils are not made to API specifications(even though the match and exceed them), but they are made to the specifications of the engine manufacturer. When the oil is optimized specifically for the engine thay can be used longer.
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Maverick,
It's not a totally different machine since it still run on petrol and needs oil. But you have to agree that for 2 engines of roughly the same cubic inches and made at both ends of a 60 years interval, the modern engine will usually:
- use less fuel
- develop more bhp and torque
- be more reliable
so why can't you accept that it requires less frequent oil changes?
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Same thing, day in and day out.
Beet, you put a lot of faith in the owners manual. Fine. Mine says 5,000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first, between oil changes, so does my Wife's owner manual.
In both, there is a caveate. And I quote from my manual, "The recommended oil and filter change frequency is based on average driving conditions. If you operate the vehicle in extreme conditions for long periods of time, it is recommended to shorten the distance and/or time between the oil and filter replacement schedule."
According to your own logic, I should be changing my oil every 3,000 miles or 4 months, because the owner's manual says to. As I do drive in extreme conditions most of the year.
These threads with the same repetitive stuff going back and forth is rather boring. Somebody want to explain the point of this?
Yes, I do put a lot of faith in the owner's manual, and for one very good reason: It was written by the people who built the car, and I feel strongly that they know more about the car than anyone else, including you, me, Lazs, Jackal et al. I also feel that this is a much healthier option than trusting to titbits of "knowledge" from guys on this board, whose expertise is rooted in legacy engines using 50 year old technology.
Your vehicle manual advises you to adjust your service interval, if driving in extreme conditions. VAG take a different stance - you decide when you buy the car which schedule to be on. If doing a higher than average mileage, as I do, then you can opt for the long-life package - use Long Life oil and have the service interval decided by the onboard computer, which will take in data from the oil quality sensors and from other sources. If driving under harsh conditions, you can opt for Time/Distance servicing, which would be 10,000 miles or 6 months, for example.
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Originally posted by
Maverick,
It's not a totally different machine since it still run on petrol and needs oil. But you have to agree that for 2 engines of roughly the same cubic inches and made at both ends of a 60 years interval, the modern engine will usually:
- use less fuel
- develop more bhp and torque
- be more reliable
so why can't you accept that it requires less frequent oil changes? [/B]
Go back and look, I never said the oil needed to be changed either more or less frequently than 3 months as a matter of practice.
Here is what I did say about oil. these are quotes from my earlier posts. Each of these comments deals with condition of oil, something the environment it is used in is a critical factor.
Depends on the area you drive in. The desert Southwest of the USA is about as dusty a place as you can find (Yakima Firing Center in Washington being as bad or worse) and the particulate counts in the air lead to earlier oil changes as the engine ingests the stuff. A non dusty environment adds less abrasives into the engine.
Don't forget the combustion by products, if you use a medium to high sulfur fuel you get sulfur oxides in the oil. Short term driving also adds water condensation. The combination makes sufuric acid in the crankcase. Bad stuff to leave sitting in the engine, that's why it's important to drive enough to get the oil hot to burn off the water in the crakcase.
The oil still does the same functions, clean, lube and cool. Change it in accordance with environment, usage you put it through and what the manufacturer says.
If you really want to know the condition of the oil and use it to the fullest extent of it's useful life, take a sample and have it analyzed. A good lab with a gas chromatograph spectrometer will tell you the condition of the oil and if it is safe to continue to use it based on additives, contaminates and how well it's being filtered. They may advise you to replace the oil and filter or just the filter. They can also tell you based on a series of analysis of your oil over a period of time the condition of your bearings, rings and some other components in the engine due to the things that find their way into the oil. I don't believe there is that kind of equipment in any motor vehicle.
Please note I did not say you must change it at 3 months or any other time period.
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Beet, you missed the point entirely. There are people in this thread (and a couple of others) who are aruguing about 3,000 mile oil change intervals being too short and not neccessary.
You say you trust your manual more than any opinion on this board, yet you are one of the people who argues or implies the short oil change interval is not neccessary.
So, should I believe my owner's manual, and my Wife's Volvo manual, or should I listen to others on this board? I know it is a moot question as you have stated, the opinions of others in this thread are not based on current knowledge of engines and the owner's manual is quite right.
I really do not care what your manual says. It does not apply to either of the cars in my garage.
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Ok beet... first of all... I never said that diesels could not use synthetic oil you are not telling the truth.
Next... I am no expert on any engines but thanks for the lesson on how a points set works.... my cars are either multiple spark discharges or simple electronic ignition... I have a points type on my motorcycle.
As for sensors analyzing oil. Are you saying that the sensors will tell how much grit is in the oil or what percentage of the additives (detergent etc.) are depleted by doing an analyisis? They may have some rudementary turbidity sensor but.... the equipment to do much more than that would be prohibitively expensive and would have to have the probes cleaned and calibrated often.
In the end..... If I were you beet.... I would not show this thread to anyone you had planned to sell your car to down the road as "proof" of how smart you are and how dumb the rest of us are.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ok beet... first of all... I never said that diesels could not use synthetic oil you are not telling the truth.
You said, on page 1 of this thread "beet... we have synthetic oil that is good for 15,000 mile oil changes and.... it is extremely easy to come by. And...it is for regular engines... not diesels." As for sensors analyzing oil. Are you saying that the sensors will tell how much grit is in the oil or what percentage of the additives (detergent etc.) are depleted by doing an analyisis?
Read the freaking .PDF document! Then you'd know! It says "these engines have sensors which continually monitor the quality of the oil", and goes on to add that the system can even detect if a non-LongLife oil has been added. If it can do that, I think there's a good chance that it can detect some of the other contaminants, to which you refer. It doesn't actually spell it out... In the end..... If I were you beet.... I would not show this thread to anyone you had planned to sell your car to down the road as "proof" of how smart you are and how dumb the rest of us are.
No need. I'll do what I've done in the past, which is to show that the car has been maintained in accordance with VAG recommendations. That's always been good enough in the past. We don't usually get people looking for boogeymen in the glove compartment on this side of the pond.
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Ok beet.. I said that it is for regular engines and not just diesels... the context was that I was saying that we could get synthetic for any engine.
And... I read the document. I also use analytical instruments for work and have them calibrated and change the probes etc. on them.
The document doesn't "spell" it out.. that is correct. "quality of the oil" is a very nebulous term. That could simply mean that it gauges quality based on how many start and stop cycles for instance.
As for detecting when a non long life oil has been added... I don't know enough about what the chemical makeup differences are to know how complex a sensor it would take to determine this but....
Why brag about that sensor and not one that measured turbity or grit or depletion of additives if they really had such?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
The document doesn't "spell" it out.. that is correct. "quality of the oil" is a very nebulous term. That could simply mean that it gauges quality based on how many start and stop cycles for instance.
Well, it does say that the system continually monitors the oil quality, which implies that it does more than simply count the number of start/stop cycles. It's only a 3 page document - an overview. But it does say that this continual monitoring of the oil quality means that the service interval can be as long as 30,000 miles. I don't get that with my car though. Why brag about that sensor and not one that measured turbity or grit or depletion of additives if they really had such?
I think the document was designed to give ordinary consumers an insight into LongLife oil and the modern day extended intervals between oil changes. At 3 pages in length, I don't think it was intended as part of a degree course in automotive engineering.
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Audi itself had a long term engine sludge buildup problem that would render the sensors inoperatable.
Since senosrs don`t actualy reproduce the the senses built into human noses, (the nose knows), fingers and eyes and has no way of knowing or sensing what load or circumstances the engine has been put through, I`ll stick to gauges and common sense.
I`ll admit that if you do not intend to keep a vehicle for any length of time and have absolutely no regards as to what condition someone who later purchases the vehicle gets or has to deal with when bought, then hey....owner manuals are your ticket.
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Jack - did you read what Mora said elsewhere - that Mercedes Benz has even done away with oil dipsticks altogether?
Audi engine failure due to sludge problem. Erm... can you provide any links to substantiate?
Hmm, didn't think so.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Jack - did you read what Mora said elsewhere - that Mercedes Benz has even done away with oil dipsticks altogether?
Yes i did and I imagine the aftermarket producers are tickled pink. :)
Audi engine failure due to sludge problem. Erm... can you provide any links to substantiate?
No, but I will give you some examples. there`s a million of em out there. Fire up the google generator. It has been a known problem with Audi.
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February 20, 2006
2004 Audi A4 1.8 Liter Turbo Engine Sludge Problem
Sometimes life kicks you in the nards. This is one of those times. I drive a 2004 Audi A4 1.8 Liter Turbo. When I leased it, I knew that in the past Audi had some problems with their vehicles. I did my research before I leased it. I was comfortable with the Audio brand at that point and it fit the main requirements for what I wanted in a vehicle. I wanted something with 4 doors, decent gas mileage, all wheel drive, and did not end in "ubaru". The A4 met the requirement nicely. After some paperwork, it was mine under a 4 year lease.
Another of the main reasons I wanted the Audi was their maintenance plan. It covers almost everything for the duration of the lease. This is a big selling factor for someone who wants to lease something and not worry about having to put more money into it.
Fast forward two and a half years. On Friday I was driving to Portland to pick up my son for the weekend. As I was coming up toward Wilsonville my car starts making a noise like a wounded yeti was under the hood. I quickly took the next off-ramp and pulled into a service station. I got out, checked the oil and the radiator fluid. Both were fine. Not knowing what the deal was, I called Audi Roadside Assistance and had them tow it to Sunset Audi in Beaverton (one of only two dealerships in the state) for an inspection. No worries I think. It will be covered by the warranty.
Nathan from Sunset called me this morning and left a message to call him back. I returned his call a little later and he procedes to tell me that the engine has suffered catastrophic failure due to an oil sludge issue. He also tells me that unless I can show receipts or proof of oil changes every 3000 miles, I will be obligated to pay a $12,000 engine replacement fee. I am currently in shock. My last oil change was 4 months ago at Oil Can Henry's. I have the sticker on the window showing that was done. My previous several oil changes were done by some guy I contacted from craigslist.org. He would come over to my place, change the oil, and charge me $30 without me having to go anywhere. There was also no paperwork, receipts, or cute little sticker in the window. I am screwed.
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August 31, 2004
Audi to Extend Warranty on Certain Models Due to Oil Sludge Problems
Source: Associated Press
Volkswagen of America Inc. has extended its warranty coverage of certain models for problems caused by oil sludge, which can cause engine damage.
In the past few days, the company has sent letters to about 400,000 Volkswagen Passat and Audi owners informing them of the extended warranty, Volkswagen spokesman Steve Keyes said Tuesday. The company took the measure after receiving reports of engine problems caused by sludge, a buildup of old or dirty engine oil that thickens and hinders engine lubrication.
The problem generally is caused by failure to change the oil on time or by the use of low-quality oil, Keyes said. It affects 1998 to 2004 Passats and 1997 to 2004 Audi A4s that have a 1.8-liter turbo four-cylinder engine.
Volkswagen is extending its usual five-year, 50,000-mile warranty to eight years with no mileage limit on repairs related to sludge, Keyes said. The additional warranty is fully transferrable.
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In all fairness, turbo charged engines are more prone to oil problems than non-turbo engines. Turbo chargers expose the oil to potentially much higher temperatures and far more micro debris due to coking.
Turbo charged engines not equipped with some type of engine-off recirculating pump will invariably need oil changes much more often.
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Well Jack, that is at least an interesting read. I'm pressed for time, but allow me to comment on the first of the two stories. It didn't take me long to identify the story as being from "Michael Sean's Blogs", whoever Michael Sean is. You clipped the story. Full story here: http://www.michaelsean.net/archives/2006/02/2004_audi_a4_18.htm
unless I can show receipts or proof of oil changes every 3000 miles, I will be obligated to pay a $12,000 engine replacement fee.
3000 miles? Well that's entirely different from the European service schedule, which I have posted in this thread. Even cars on Time & Distance (as opposed to Long Life) servicing can go 10,000 miles between services.
As for the part of the text that you clipped - All I know is no engine in the world should blow after 36,000 miles. Especially when the last oil change was only 4 months ago.
A 2004 model at 36,000 miles would be WELL within manufacturer warranty, which is 3 years and 60,000 miles - at least it is in Europe.
So there's something fishy about this story, not to mention the fact that you clipped out the car's mileage. ;)
Yes Skuzzy - but any decent diesel has a turbo. I wouldn't buy a non-turbo diesel. I had a Toyota Surpa 3.0i turbo (petrol) from 1991-1997 and did 84,000 miles in it. The advice given by Toyota was to idle the engine for 2 minutes after high speeds before switching off, or else the oil would be cooked by the residual heat from the turbo. In practice, a high speed run would be followed by slower driving along some local roads to reach the final destination, so there would be no need to idle the engine at journey's end. But for example, if turning off into a motorway service station after cruising at 90/100 for any length of time, I'd idle it for a couple of minutes afterwards - or, better still, slow down to about 60 for the last couple of miles before turning off. I never had any engine problems with that car. It had a turbo boost gauge, whereas the turbo diesels I've driven since do not.
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I clipped nothing Beet.....but hey if that`s all you got.
Audi has a well known, well documented history of engine oil sludge buildup problems and failed sensors.
If you wish to learn about it instead of arguing points seneslessly that you obviously know nothing about, fine. If you wish to actualy learn about it, it`s right at your fingertips.
In any case I will not be a propellant or a part of your "I`m gonna get the thread closed" foolishness.
Trust your all knowing, all seeing sensors. I beleive in your case that is your only option and quite fitting. Who cares?
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Beetle, the planes I fly are loaded with sensors too, but that doesn't stop me from doing a detailed pre-flight everytime I fly. Sensors fail, sensors can be inaccurate even when working, and sensors can't catch everything.
I'm not a 'cowboy' because I adhere to a higher standard of safety and quality in maintaining my car engine than you, I'm just a guy who wants to keep his family safe and keep the car running for as long as possible, not just until a lease is up or I hit a statistical "this is usually when you trade cars in" milestone.
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Jackall, let's cut to the chase, shall we? You googled around for a so-called "well documented history" of Audi component failure. And you came up with a bogus story. Again, I found it quite easily because I can Google too.
And the facts are that the Audi warranty is for 3 years or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first. In the case of your sample story, which one assumes would be the best you could come up with, you cited the example of a 2004 Audi that had covered 36,000 miles. Well hey, two things: 1) It's still within its first 3 years, and 2) It's still within its first 60,000 miles, so it would have been within the warranty period on both counts. So why did Audi refuse to honour the warranty? It probably has something to do with the fact that the driver was a doofus. He had a car under manufacturer's warranty, but instead of having scheduled maintenance carried out by an authorised Audi dealer, he took it to "Oil Can Henry's" for an oil change. He probably thought he could save a couple of bucks that way. :rolleyes: I have to say that this place sounds like some Mom-and-Pop oil change outfit akin to jiffy lube. I found it here: http://www.oilcanhenrys.com/index.html
Well guess what? Audi would have told him that he had voided his warranty by doing that. Because my understanding of the terms of the Audi warranty is you have to have the car serviced by an authorised Audi franchise at the recommended interval in order for the warranty to remain intact. Maybe this guy thought he knew more about the car than Audi themselves? (Where have I heard that before - LOL!)
I have to ask you - who in his right mind would buy a fine German car, spanking brand new, and then take it for maintenance to be done by this guy...
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/oilcanhenry.jpg)
The other pictures of "Oil Can Henry's" look like they were shot in the 1930s, with the guys wearing bow ties and flat caps - looked like something out of Bonnie and Clyde.
Digging a bit deeper, I found some of Henry's advice on oil changes. And Henry knows more about Audis than Audi themselves! Let's see here, there a section called "Henry's Hints" - a Q and A section. Here's the one that caught my eye: - Q. How often should I change my engine’s oil?
- A. The sludge formed by contaminated oil reduces its ability to protect your engine from rust, corrosion and thermal breakdown. That’s why Henry recommends changing your vehicle’s oil and filter every 3 months or 3,000 miles.
Well LOL - Henry doesn't even ask what kind of car is being talked about - what make and model, what year, petrol or diesel, the type of usage to which it is put... Nope. Henry apparently thinks all that is irrelevant, with his "one size fits all" nugget of motor maintenance advice. Again - where have I heard all this before? ;) Hehe - well it didn't work out too well for the Audi driving doofus, did it? I wonder if "Henry" has even heard of synthetic oils.
But there's more. Our Audi man didn't have ALL his oil changes done at Oil Can Henry's - My previous several oil changes were done by some guy I contacted from craigslist.org. He would come over to my place, change the oil, and charge me $30 without me having to go anywhere. There was also no paperwork, receipts, or cute little sticker in the window. I am screwed.
So, in his own words, this Audi owner had his oil changes done by "some guy" who came over. And the result? Note the last three words of that quote. But what's this - my "previous SEVERAL oil changes"??????? By my reckoning, at 36,000 miles he shouldn't have had more than perhaps 3 oil changes in total, even if he'd been on the Time & Distance maintenance schedule. I kept my last Golf diesel for 48k miles, only needed 2 services, and didn't have ANY of these "sludge problems".
Seems to me that the bottom line of this story is that the Audi driver ignored the advice of Audi themselves. He went to more than one unauthorised outlet for oil service, and they probably didn't use the synthetic oils recommended by Audi. He might have thought he was saving money, but now he's screwed.
...and that's why I heed the advice of the people who actually make the car. My reasoning is that they know more about it than anyone else. Not everyone would agree, including perhaps the unfortunate Audi driver who was the subject of jackall's post. :(
Chairboy - if Audi tell me that I can rely on sensors or whatever else is under the bonnet (hood), that's good enough for me. If you're still unsure why I trust the vehicle manufacturer implicitly, refer to the story above. I adhere to a higher standard of safety and quality in maintaining my car engine than you
Doubtful. I follow the recommendations of the vehicle manufacturer to the letter, whatever car I'm driving. How does what you do improve on that? But if you still believe that there's a better way to look after your car than by following the manufacturer's recommendations, maybe you'd better read the full version of the story about the Audi driver who went to Oil Can Henry.
:)
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I get it!
Only Audi was capable of changing the guy's oil! Everyone else is just gonna screw the car up and ruin the motor :lol
Everyone knows that oil can only be changed by the manufacturer of the vehicle.
Also, changing the oil at earlier intervals than the manufacturer suggests will automatically destroy your motor and make you look like a fool.
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Like I said.......it`s a well known, well documented problem.
A few of 242,000. :)
=================================================
By Ralph Kisiel
Automotive News / August 30, 2004
DETROIT - In the latest example of Volkswagen of America Inc.'s quality woes, the automaker is warning 426,000 VW Passat and Audi A4 owners of an engine oil sludge problem.
Affected are 1.8-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engines on 1998 to 2004 Passats and 1997 to 2004 A4s. VW won't say how many engines have been replaced or repaired, or what it is spending to fix the problem.
Owners began receiving letters from VWoA this month. Remedies range from extending warranties to covering repair costs. That includes replacing engines.
Sludge buildup causes engine performance to deteriorate. In extreme cases, sludge can cause engines to seize.
The timing couldn't be worse. VW Division has old products, and sales are down 11.5 percent for the first seven months compared with the year-ago period. And it has only been a year since VW voluntarily recalled more than 500,000 vehicles because of faulty engine ignition coils.
VW is not alone in grappling with engine oil sludge complaints. Last week the Center for Auto Safety in Washington demanded that the Chrysler group fix sludge problems and extend warranties on 2.7-liter V-6 engines in its 1998 to 2002 vehicles.
Confirming that VW has received "numerous reports of problems," VWoA spokesman Tony Fouladpour said that VW is extending factory warranties from five years to eight years. Warranties are transferable.
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Count your blessings. Purchased my '98 A4 1.8T new and have adored it. Three days ago the engine seized, seconds after I exited a very high-speed expressway. Audi says it's a result of oil sludge buildup, but won't pay for a new engine because I've changed the oil as recommended in the Owner's Manual (7500 mi intervals), but not the Maintenance Booklet (5000 mi intervals for that engine only). During the 3-yr warranty period when I had service performed exclusively at the dealer, the mechanics never once used the Maint. Booklet to document service. So I never looked at it after the first time, and completely forgot that it said anything different than the Owner's Manual about oil change intervals. (The OM says change the oil at 7500 miles intervals, and consult the Maint Booklet for more detailed info about maintenance. It doesn't say to check the Maint Booklet for info specific to my engine. Nor does it say, anywhere in the manual, that some information may not be accurate for some vehicles.) Audi concedes that this is the only instance in which the Owner's Manual is not accurate for all varieties of A4, but they still say it's my fault.
They apparently sent a letter to owners in August 2004 about this problem, but I did not receive it. (The letter also referenced the Owner's Manual, not the Maintenance Booklet.) And I had the car in for service at the dealer last month, and nobody mentioned this potentially fatal problem (although they did mention some other recall issues that came up recently, which of course they didn't have time to fix unless I could leave the car with them for a week before Christmas). If I'd known, I would have done whatever necessary to resolve the problem before destroying the engine, and fought about the cost later. As it is, I'm looking at many thousands of dollars for a rebuilt engine (a new one would cost more than the car is worth).
The dealer told me they've had six or seven "oil sludge victims" come in so far, and I'm the first one for whom Audi has denied the extended warranty coverage.
I'm outraged, frustrated, frightened (by what could have happened on the freeway), and grief-stricken because I really love this car!
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Volkswagen & Audi Sludge Problems
Volkswagen is requiring its dealers to use synthetic oil and a larger oil filter in the 2005 Passat and Audi A4 – up to 426,000 vehicles may be affected. Specifically, the 1.8-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engines on 1998 to 2004 Passats and 1997 to 2004 Audi A4s. Sludge buildup causes engine performance to deteriorate. In extreme cases, sludge can cause engines to seize.
A National Highway Traffic Safety Administration source said the agency has had 12 to 15 sludge complaints for 2000 to 2004 Passats and A4s. One complaint was about an engine seizure. VW dealers are seeing the problem mostly with owners who don't follow the recommended oil change intervals, said Gene Langan, of Gene Langan Volkswagen Inc. in Glastonbury, Connecticut.
"I've seen a few cases," he said. "It seems to happen mostly when we can't verify oil change history, when people don't do them for 20,000 miles. I think that this is a problem that is pretty broad in the industry right now."
In its letter to Passat and A4 owners, VW says that it will cover necessary engine repairs if oil sludge causes a problem and the vehicle owner could provide proof of oil changes. Oil changes would have to be according to VW-recommended maintenance schedules. VW recommends that oil be changed at 5,000 miles or six months.
How it occurs
The letter states that engine oil sludge occurs when old, dirty engine oil thickens and cannot continue to provide correct lubrication. It says the condition occurs primarily when the engine is operated at oil change intervals beyond those prescribed in the owner's manual.
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Audi to Extend Warranty on Certain Models Due to Oil Sludge Problems
Source: Associated Press
Volkswagen of America Inc. has extended its warranty coverage of certain models for problems caused by oil sludge, which can cause engine damage.
In the past few days, the company has sent letters to about 400,000 Volkswagen Passat and Audi owners informing them of the extended warranty, Volkswagen spokesman Steve Keyes said Tuesday. The company took the measure after receiving reports of engine problems caused by sludge, a buildup of old or dirty engine oil that thickens and hinders engine lubrication.
The problem generally is caused by failure to change the oil on time or by the use of low-quality oil, Keyes said. It affects 1998 to 2004 Passats and 1997 to 2004 Audi A4s that have a 1.8-liter turbo four-cylinder engine.
Volkswagen is extending its usual five-year, 50,000-mile warranty to eight years with no mileage limit on repairs related to sludge, Keyes said. The additional warranty is fully transferrable.
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New recalls for Audi and VW?
9/1/2004 OFFICIAL BELL & ROSS TIMESTAMP: 9:07:47 PM EDT
VW-Audi Oil Sludge issue
Volkswagen Extends Engine Warranties
Volkswagen and Audi are extending the engine warranty on two of their most popular models because of a sludge problem with the four-cylinder, turbocharged engine.
The vehicles are the 1998-2004 Volkswagen Passats and the 1997-2004 Audi A4s, both of which share the 1.8-liter engine
Volkswagen of America and Audi of America are part of Volkswagen AG.
In a letter being sent to owners, the automaker said it is extending the warranty because some consumers have complained of engine problems resulting from oil sludge.
Sludge is a thickening of the oil because moisture and contaminants build up and break down the oil, causing it to gel. That may reduce the flow of oil through the engine, causing excess wear or a failure.
The extended warranty is for eight years starting when the vehicle was new. There is no limit on mileage. The warranty covers subsequent owners.
To have repairs covered, owners must be able to prove that they changed the oil according to the automaker's recommendation, which is six months or 5,000 miles.
"An engine failure can cost consumers thousands of dollars. Volkswagen and Audi did the right thing by taking responsibility for oil sludge in their vehicles," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, a consumer group in Washington, D.C.
Volkswagen is not alone in having a sludge problem. In 2002 Toyota announced it would cover 3.4 million engines for eight years and unlimited mileage. Those were 3.0-liter V-6s from the 1997 to 2002 model years and 2.2-liter four-cylinder engines from the 1997 to 2001 model years.
Volkswagen began sending the notices to owners recently, spokesman Tony Fouladpour said Friday.
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Publication: Automotive News
Publication Date: 30-AUG-04
Format: Online - approximately 712 words
Delivery: Immediate Online Access
Article Excerpt
Byline: Ralph Kisiel
In the latest example of Volkswagen of America Inc.'s quality woes, the automaker is warning 426,000 VW Passat and Audi A4 owners of an engine oil sludge problem.
Affected are 1.8-liter turbocharged four-cylinder engines on 1998 to 2004 Passats and 1997 to 2004 A4s. VW won't say how many engines have been replaced or repaired, or what it is spending to fix the problem.
Owners began receiving letters from VWoA this month. Remedies range from extending warranties to covering repair costs. That includes replacing engines.
Sludge buildup causes engine performance to deteriorate. In extreme cases, sludge...
=============================================================================
About three weeks ago, Audi/VW started a voluntary recall campaign for all 1.8T engines in 1997 to present Audi A4s and VW Jettas. This is due to problems that can occur from oil sludge and oil powder buildup (known as "coking".) As part of the recall, Audi is extending the warranty of 1.8T engines by 8 years, unlimited mileage and transferrable to new owners.
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Oil Sludge: an expensive but preventable disaster
Every year, more of my customers suffer through unnecessary and very expensive engine re-builds due to oil sludge. The causes are complex but sludge damage can be prevented.
The oil sludge problem is reaching epidemic proportions on many 1997 and newer cars, with the following cars greatly affected:
* Audi - 1997-2004
* Chrysler - 1998-2002
* Dodge - 1998-2002
* Hyundai - 1998-2004
* Lexus - 1997-2003
* Toyota - 1997-2003
* SAAB - 1999-2003
* Volkswagen - 1997-2004
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VW, Audi Owners Warned of Oil Sludge Problem
SITUATION
1 . Some 425K owners of 4-cyl VW, Audi vehicles warned of oil sludge problem
2 . Engine replacements authorized if sludge buildup has caused stallouts
3 . Warranty on engine extended to 8 years, unlimited mileage, from 5 years/50K miles
4 . Sludge problem not confined to VW as Center for Auto Safety urges fix on some Chryslers
5 . VW asks dealers to use synthetic oil, larger oil filter on 2005 Passat, A4 models
SIGNIFICANT POINTS
1 . Sludge buildup described by some dealers as threat to any who ignore regular changing
2 . NHTSA reports rising number of complaints on Chrysler, Toyota, Lexus
3 . Chrysler spokesman advises drivers to heed manual recommendations
4 . To facilitate engine repairs, VW/Audi owners asked to provide proof of oil changes
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Beetle *knows* what's best for his car, because he faithfully swallows what the manufacturer feeds him.
Nothing else matters.
If someone other than the manufacturer changes the oil, you can go to hell!
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The key question here is this. If beetle's car rolled over and kicked it's wheels up in the air like a dying cockroach, would anyone here care?
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Originally posted by Mr Big
I get it!
Only Audi was capable of changing the guy's oil! Everyone else is just gonna screw the car up and ruin the motor :lol
Everyone knows that oil can only be changed by the manufacturer of the vehicle.
Also, changing the oil at earlier intervals than the manufacturer suggests will automatically destroy your motor and make you look like a fool.
Mr. Big - you were trying to be funny, but you're probably not far wide of the mark!!!
I didn't see any pricing information on Oil Can Henry's website, but if it's anything like JiffyLube, I've no doubt that the quoted fee is one of those magic numbers like $29.95. Well one thing I can tell you - there's no way in hell you're going to get the correct synthetic oil at that price. As I've said earlier, in one litre bottles, it costs me £12/litre for Castrol SLX LongLife-3 - that's about $20. The upside is that by using this oil, it's safe to go up to 30k miles between changes, although with my driving pattern I only go 18k between services. It's up to you whether you believe it - I do, and I've never had any engine problems with my VAG products. I did between 48,000 and 66,000 in the last 3 cars I've had - MUCH more than the 36k that was the point at which at least two of the people in jackal's story began experiencing problems.
What you have to remember is that if you're going to have "some guy come round" to change your oil, he's not going to give a toss what oil he puts in, as long as he gets his grubby mits on your wonga. He's not accountable if it all goes pear shaped.
And... as we've seen on this board, there are MANY Americans who pooh-pooh the fact that the vehicle manufacturer, in this case Audi, know more about the car than they do. Jackal has even said, in an earlier thread, that they "know nothing". Well, it seems that a huge swathe of the American motoring public has adopted the same attitude. As Mora has discussed, in America if you want vehicle service, you go to one shop for brakes, another for shocks, you go to Aamco for transmission work etc... That's not how it's done in Europe. You go to the franchised dealer who does everything. What's happened in all of these stories in jack's thread is that folks have ignored Audi's advice - they've gone to back street mom-n-pop places for an oil change and "lube" at ~$29.95. I guess they baulked at the official service costs, which are not cheap but they're not often. I fully expect to spend £300-£400 on service to my A3, so you can imagine the reaction of some Americans which would be to suck through their teeth and go the $29.95 "jiffylube" route. :lol
So I had a look through jackal's thread to see what some of the other problems were... Posted by: carmen morinello at March 2, 2006 04:45 PM
I've got a 2002 GTI 337 (1.8T) and a 2003 Jetta GL. Yesterday, I took the Jetta into Valvoline for an oil change when the crew told me I had some serious sludge issues in the 2.0L. I declined the engine flush but did have them put full synthetic in. I then took the car out and drove it about 20 miles to let it heat up. This was what the guy at the shop told me to do. Things seem ok but I'm now considering getting the engine flushed.
I just checked the oil on my GTI - it seems fine but I do have a light coat of milky residue on the filler cap. I drive this car further than the Jetta during the week.
I'm good about getting both cars serviced every 3000. I think part of the problem is the cold weather here and not driving far enough to really get things heated up. I'm told that by not getting the oil up to temp long enough, moisture can oxidize the oil starting the sludge issue.
So, I have two cars that get their oil changed regularly, both are working ok but the sludge has started. So now what? I plan on getting the Jetta flushed ASAP and run only synthetic in it. The GTI may be next.
So he took the car to Valvoline, not Audi. That was the first mistake. What is "Valvoline" and what oils do they have? Do they use synthetic oil as a matter of course? Because this poster goes on to say "I plan on getting the Jetta flushed ASAP and run only synthetic in it. The GTI may be next." - which strongly suggests he has not been using synthetic up to that point. That was the second mistake.
Moving further down... I have the EXACT situation as you with my 2004 Audi A4! I sat on the side of the road last night for 3 hours waiting for Audi road side! Then they tell me today that I owe $12,000 for a new engine. I only had the oil changed two times at another place. All others where done at Audi, including the most recent. I will be talking to an attorney next week. What have you accomplished with your situation?
And what, one wonders, was this "other place"? Could it have been JiffyLube? Could it have been Oil Can Henry? Did they use a genuine Audi oil filter and did they use Audi approved synthetic oil? Why go to "another place"? Let me guess - the Audi service was going to be $500, and a jiffylube job was going to be $29.95. :aok
Let's hear from "Darren" - Posted by: Darren at April 28, 2006 07:29 PM
Ditto. Me too. Been fighting with Audi of America for the warranty issues (one independant shop whose repair order they claim isn't an invoice)
Ah yes, an independent repair shop - say no more!
Jessica isn't having much luck with her car, with 36k miles on it - Posted by: Jessica at June 5, 2006 11:40 PM
I've run into the same situation with my 2002 Jetta 1.8T. I'm now in the process of trying to obtain copies of all of my oil change receipts from the garages I've used since I bought the car. It only has 36K miles on it! It's also been back to the dealership many times in the past 4 years for recalls and other manufacturing defects.
What are these "garages"? If Audi is asking for receipts, they weren't Audi dealerships. I know that because ALL maintenance records for VAG cars are held on a central database and can be displayed on a computer screen at any other VAG dealership. The number of doofuses is mounting up!!!
And from jackal's thread - A National Highway Traffic Safety Administration source said the agency has had 12 to 15 sludge complaints for 2000 to 2004 Passats and A4s. One complaint was about an engine seizure. VW dealers are seeing the problem mostly with owners who don't follow the recommended oil change intervals, said Gene Langan, of Gene Langan Volkswagen Inc. in Glastonbury, Connecticut.
"I've seen a few cases," he said. "It seems to happen mostly when we can't verify oil change history
Aha! "can't verify the oil change history". And why would that be then? I can answer that. The cars were not maintained by Audi. If they were, the service records would be on the database.
So why would the customers choose NOT to go to the authorised dealer, when doing so is a condition of the warranty? Two possible reasons. 1) They thought they could save money. 2)They probably thought they knew better than Audi about what oil could be used, and went to JiffyLube.
And the moral of the story is... European cars of this millennium are very different from American cars (especially legacy models with engines using 50 year old technology) and you simply cannot adopt the American attitude when deciding where, when and how often to have them serviced. Just look at the above. FIVE people who went away from Audi service during the warranty period, and that's just in this one thread!!!
Well let me tell you that there's a reason why VAG stipulates that service must be carried out be themselves if the warranty is to be upheld. And the poor unfortunate people in Jackal's story have just found out what that reason is!!!
:rofl
Well folks, it's been fun, but I'm unable to continue this enlightening discussion for some time. As of this moment, there is to be an extended period of toodle-pippage, during which I shall be travelling to the Yorkshire Dales for a short hiking trip. A round trip of around 500 miles. Don't worry, I'll check the oil level before I go. My car is the old fashioned the type that still has a "dipstick"! -that's becoming old hat, by the way! :lol
So, until Saturday - Toodle Pip!
:D:cool::D:cool::D
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Does the US service schedules have oil changes between scheduled services, or have these people skipped scheduled services alltogether and gone to "jiffylube" for an oil change instead?
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Originally posted by Mr Big
If someone other than the manufacturer changes the oil, you can go to hell!
No, you are just voiding the warranty.
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So...so far we have proved that sensors can`t be depended on, Audi definitely has been known to have oil sludge buildup problems, aftermarket producers have a smile a mile wide and some car makers are trying to go the route of big government to the point of nannyism and some are falling for it, but most of all common sense reigns once again even though not adaptable to some people. Anything else? :)
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I think is pretty damn funny that some people feel they can only get an oil change at a car dealer, otherwise you are ruining your car and voiding your warrantry. What a racket you guys put up with over there. :lol
Beetle, the milage you put on your last cars is next to nothing. My big f-350 has over 140,000 and my F-250 has close to 160,000. Not one problem with either of them.
Guess where I get my oil changed? Jiffy Lube.
You tell then what oil to put in it, and that's what goes in it. They put the manufacturer's recomended oil in if you want. It's cheaper and MUCH faster to got to a Jiffy Lube than it is to get the car to a car dealer.
Plus, you can watch them work on the car at Jiffy Lube. I'd trust Jiffy Lube over a car dealer any day.
When I need my oil changed, I pull right into an open bay at Jiffy Lube, and I'm out of there in usually 15 minutes.
When I was a kid, I ALWAYS changed my own oil. My 1968 El Camino had over 200,000 miles on it, when I sold it for a profit. It never was serviced at a dealer for anything. I did any tune ups and maintanence it needed.
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Wasn't there a lawsuit that set some precedence over the whole "use the dealership or you void the warranty" conversation a couple decades ago? I think it's a RICO issue, but I can't recall the exact case.
Essentially, the argument was (iirc) that forcing customers to use the dealership and automatically disregarding any non-dealership repair as something that voids the warranty was a violation of anti-trust laws and costituted a type of coercion.
If the oil meets respected published standards, there's no reason to void it's use, and Audi would have to prove in court that the oil used was improper.
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Originally posted by Mr Big
I think is pretty damn funny that some people feel they can only get an oil change at a car dealer, otherwise you are ruining your car and voiding your warrantry. What a racket you guys put up with over there. :lol
No it's not about oil change but scheduled servicing. There's no such a thing as an "oil change between services" here. There's only scheduled services which has to be performed at a place which has the necessary skill and equipment to do it. I don't think "jiffylube" would qualify as one though. I could personally open an authorized V.A.G service if I wanted to, V.A.G would be obliged to sell me training and equipment at the same price as to anyone else. So it's not like you are obliged to go to the dealer.
And yes, you could do the oil change at the jiffylube without voiding the warranty(on engine), as long as you can prove the mileage and the type of oil used (receipt), and have the rest of the scheduled service made elsewhere.
If the above doesn't apply to the US, then I really wonder why the manufacturers issue any warranties at all. Especially after seeing the video which was the original topic.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Essentially, the argument was (iirc) that forcing customers to use the dealership and automatically disregarding any non-dealership repair as something that voids the warranty was a violation of anti-trust laws and costituted a type of coercion.
It doesn't automatically void warranty, but of course the car owner is the one who has the burden of proof. If it's done at the dealership there's no burden of proof as the services are on their database, and on the service booklet.
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There are exceptions to the rule also. If you own a mercedes you should never trust the 'lifetime' oil cycle in the automatic gearboxes. It's 150k miles and a new gearbox (maybe they call it lifetime cycle because of that.. hmm..) :p
Any professional MB serviceman will recommend a maximum of 38k miles between tranny oil changes.
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I would neither. In an automatic the oil gets strained in the torque converter and clutches, and even gets contaminated as the clutches wear. 38k is on the lowside though, when talking about automatics in general.
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Originally posted by mora
I would neither. In an automatic the oil gets strained in the torque converter and clutches, and even gets contaminated as the clutches wear. 38k is on the lowside though, when talking about automatics in general.
That also depends on the load and how hot you let the oil get. If you cook the oil it will degrade very fast.
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Originally posted by Maverick
That also depends on the load and how hot you let the oil get. If you cook the oil it will degrade very fast.
Except for in Beetle's Audi.
German efficiency and all that means that the oil degrades all at once after a 12,500 mile interval. If you drive 12,501 without that service, your engine will fall off, and you'll deserve it. The first 12,499? It's perfect. The trick, of course, harkens back to well known german physics professor, Dr. Heisenberg. This is why the Audi does not have a dip stick. As long as the oil is not observed, measured, or analyzed, his Uncertainty Principle states that it remains in a state of uncertainty, flipping back and forth on a quantum level between "Good" and "Bad", between "Low" and "Full". At precisely 12,500 miles, the computer activates a sensor to measure the oil, and the quantum states collapse immediately.
Well known facts. This is why you're a sucker if you change the oil any earlier. Not to mention the risk you face of being attacked by countless thousands of quantum cats....
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Chairboy you're wrong. Frequent oil changes are only necessary on low grade non-synthetic oils. Dig up some longevity tests where they drive cars at high speed for 300 000km and only stop to change oils / driver between 20 000km.
The opened up engine showed no signs of wear with fully synthetic oil.
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How can I be wrong? I just agreed with Beetle, now I understand how the 12,500 miles between changes works. Just like Tom Lehrer said about New Math, "It's simple, so very simple, that only a child can do it".
BTW, have you ever heard the yowling-screech that thousands of Schroedinger's cats make when their waveforms collapse? It's tremendous.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Chairboy you're wrong. Frequent oil changes are only necessary on low grade non-synthetic oils. Dig up some longevity tests where they drive cars at high speed for 300 000km and only stop to change oils / driver between 20 000km.
The opened up engine showed no signs of wear with fully synthetic oil.
This is actually true with just about ANY engine oil.
After managing a Mercedes-Benz repair shop for 6 years one thing I learned is that highway driving is much, much better for engine oil that short trips and idling in traffic.
We used Castrol GTX 20W-50 exclusively and you could really tell the difference. The summers here in Texas are brutal for short-trip/long idle situations, especially here in Houston. The cars that were mostly driven on the highway always showed better oil condition than those othat weren't mostly highway driven.
One of the things that amazed us at the shop were the later models (W202, W210, W140 etc...) that had no transmission dipstick. Sealed non-servicable automatic transmissions. Designed obsolesence at it's finest.
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Before this thread I thought Jiffy Lube came out of one of them vending machines, in the men`s batroom, down at the Texaco. :D
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Originally posted by beet1e
Well, it does say that the system continually monitors the oil quality, which implies that it does more than simply count the number of start/stop cycles. It's only a 3 page document - an overview. But it does say that this continual monitoring of the oil quality means that the service interval can be as long as 30,000 miles. I don't get that with my car though. I think the document was designed to give ordinary consumers an insight into LongLife oil and the modern day extended intervals between oil changes. At 3 pages in length, I don't think it was intended as part of a degree course in automotive engineering.
See, here's the issue I have with that system. How neccessary is it? Assuming you're going to save money on maintenance, is the money saved over the time you own the vehicle greater than what the additional sensors cost. Sensors on cars tend to be ridiculously expensive. I know the costs, because I broker them.
Also, another little sticky point in my mind... all my hands-on experience is with Toyota. Right now they're the most reliable cars on the planet. They don't bother with the oil quality sensors at all. Just the pressure sensor for the low oil light and a dipstick.
Cool system on the Audi/VWs, but I think it'd take a hell of alot of maintenance before it actually paid for itself :(
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
This is actually true with just about ANY engine oil.
After managing a Mercedes-Benz repair shop for 6 years one thing I learned is that highway driving is much, much better for engine oil that short trips and idling in traffic.
We used Castrol GTX 20W-50 exclusively and you could really tell the difference. The summers here in Texas are brutal for short-trip/long idle situations, especially here in Houston. The cars that were mostly driven on the highway always showed better oil condition than those othat weren't mostly highway driven.
One of the things that amazed us at the shop were the later models (W202, W210, W140 etc...) that had no transmission dipstick. Sealed non-servicable automatic transmissions. Designed obsolesence at it's finest.
Checking the fluid is accomplished by breaking off the red locking seal located at the dip stick. the lock is replaced after the oil is checked. Use part number 140-991-00-55 for a new lock. There is no dip stick to check the ATF. You need a special tool to check the fluid on all 722.6 transmissions, part number 140-589-15-21-00.
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I'm back!
And... since there are few other interesting threads, I thought I'd come back here. Originally posted by Jackal1
So...so far we have proved that sensors can`t be depended on, Audi definitely has been known to have oil sludge buildup problems, aftermarket producers have a smile a mile wide and some car makers are trying to go the route of big government to the point of nannyism and some are falling for it, but most of all common sense reigns once again even though not adaptable to some people. Anything else? :)
No, what we have so far, as part of the evidence you have presented as "well documented fact" is a clutch of stubborn Audi drivers who thought they knew better than Audi which oil was right for their car, and who, in their quest to save a couple of bucks, voided their Audi warranties by going to cheap oil change places, used the wrong (ie cheap, non-synthetic) oil, very possibly the wrong filter, screwed their engines at around 36K as a result, and who are now crying in their beer because Audi has washed its hands of them and is refusing to compensate them.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Checking the fluid is accomplished by breaking off the red locking seal located at the dip stick. the lock is replaced after the oil is checked. Use part number 140-991-00-55 for a new lock. There is no dip stick to check the ATF. You need a special tool to check the fluid on all 722.6 transmissions, part number 140-589-15-21-00.
Thanks for the info, I'll pass it on to the shop (I haven't worked there since Jan. 2000). The "special tool" thing was writing on the all for me. Ontop of "special tools" and lack of technical assistance I decided to leave that line of work for something a little more lucrative.
A good anecdote from that time period; Had a customer drop off his 1985 300SD for a standard oil change. After he picked it up and drove it home he called me back asking if we changed the oil. I assured him that we had and asked him why he thought we didn't. He said he pulled the oil dipstick and found the oil was "completely black".
One word for Mercedes owner's to look out for: evaporators.