Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Neubob on June 14, 2006, 03:35:09 PM
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I've been on the road for the last 3 days, listening to a lot of radio, mostly in Eastern and Central PA. The one thing they couldn't stop talking about was the owner of this Cheesesteak shop that posted a sign by the cash register reading: 'This is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH'
The reaction has been intense, both in support and in offense to this neutrally-worded request. Needless to say, it has attracted much attention to this sub shop, but, more importantly, it has posed the question: should business owners be able to discriminate based on their prospective customers' ability to communicate in English.
As a son of two people who moved to the US and spent the subsequent 2 1/2 decades mastering the English langauge to better function (serve, take advantage of opportunities) within American society, I agree with this shop-owner. Nobody ever asked us to forget our native Russian, and we continue to practice our native language and maintain our fluency to this day. It should be, however, a basic expectation that residents of this nation master what is, for now at least, our only official national language.
Others believe that this is an act that discriminates specifically against Hispanics. I think this accusation is bogus. First of all, the sign does not specify which language the staff of this restaurant are most commonly faced with in place of English. Secondly, and, more importantly, if it is people of Hispanic origin that are most likely to reside in the states but forego any attempts at the most basic, most functional social assimilation, it is then a case of them shunning American society, not the other way around. As most any productive immigrant will tell you, you accept certain realities when you move to a foriegn nation.
Here's the link to the article.
Famous Philly Cheesesteak shop in the cross-hairs (http://www.pennlive.com/newsflash/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-39/1150132775225280.xml&storylist=penn)
Note to Skuzzy: This is not at all a shot at Rule #16. The fact that you nailed me on it simply reminded me of this story.
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Oh no! Not geno's!
Anyway, in my first year of German class I was able to effectively communicate what food I wanted, to ask where the library was and to tell you what color my socks were.
I wouldn't expect someone fresh from mexico to speak any better english then I did when I took the first year of german. But, in this case that's all that is needed.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Oh no! Not geno's!
Anyway, in my first year of German class I was able to effectively communicate what food I wanted, to ask where the library was and to tell you what color my socks were.
I wouldn't expect someone fresh from mexico to speak any better english then I did when I took the first year of german. But, in this case that's all that is needed.
You're right. In fact, some of the first books I remember appearing in my home were big, thick Russian-English/English-Russian dictionaries. It seems pretty self-evident that it's not just respectful to the society into which you've arrived, but it's infinitely beneficial to oneself to learn the language. How they possibly justify protecting this tendency to remain isolated in non-English-speaking pockets? Like it or not, if you're here to stay, you'll need to wander out into the open eventually.
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See Rule #4
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I have been all over the world with the Navy.
We don't always stop at tourist ports or resorts. I do not expect the local businesses to speak english..
as our businessses should not be expected to speak any other language.
I'm so sick of this "you can't offend anybody" crap.
It makes us all victims and slaves to a few groups of people.
I may make a bid for office one day just to publicly not be "PC"
Not with any expectation to win, but just to make a point.
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Originally posted by Neubob
Others believe that this is an act that discriminates specifically against Hispanics.
Says who and where does it say that it was the Hispanic community that complained about this guy's sign?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Says who and where does it say that it was the Hispanic community that complained about this guy's sign?
ack-ack
That was the focus of most of the radio reports I heard. Furthermore, it was a Hispanic City Counsel member that has turned this into a pet project, some of his quotes (I do not recall them verbatim), strongly indicated that this 'discrimination' was more or less targeted.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Says who and where does it say that it was the Hispanic community that complained about this guy's sign?
ack-ack
It probrably was some "Lib" whitey that said it was offensive to hispanics....We create our own problems by bringing to light stuff the "victims" probrably don't notice or don't give a **** about.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
It probrably was some "Lib" whitey that said it was offensive to hispanics....We create our own problems by bringing to light stuff the "victims" probrably don't notice or don't give a **** about.
Also, I do remember one of the DJs saying that a 'No Habla Espagnol' sign would have been a less 'proud' method of achieving the same effect. Given the neighborhood, it was a pretty simple assumption on his part.
I've got to agree with ASTAC, however. It's more characteristic of a English-speaking liberal to get all bent out of shape over something like this.
The people calling in, outraged that their fair city was about to recieve yet another crippling blow to their so-called reputation, were all pretty fluent. Not a single foreign accent among them, unless you count 'South-Philly' as an accent, and most of those thought Geno was within his rights.
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My position is nothing new for anybody who's already seen my rant on the subject.
Like Neubob (and the rest of us BTW) I'm a proud son of an immigrant family (2nd gen Sicilian), and proud of my family history. However, I'm American, not Italian. Period.
My family members who immigrated here flatly refused to teach Italian to the kids and grandkids. "We're Americans", my grandfather used to say by way of explanation. Oh, yeah...they also asked permission. Go figure.
I applaud Geno's and everybody else who is attempting to make an important point. If a tourist approachs the counter at Geno's, and they are not masters of the English language, you can bet they'll be helped politely. The point is NOT about xenophobia, not even English...it's about respect.
The guy's trying to make a point, not to non-English speakers, but to the millions of criminals floating around who don't have a right to be here, and still demanding everything be made to accomodate them.
IMO, any claims that the signage is specifically targeted against Hispanics can simply show me where it says anything about Hispanics, or any language but English. Nope...nothing there. The request clearly applies across the board. Based onthe same unfounded logic, one could claim that they're discriminating against Swahili, but I don't expect much of an outcry over that.
Like I said, it really is about a socio-political point, and not about being unwilling to help someone out. Geno's is dependent on tourist money like many in Philadelphia, and isn't out to ruin their business. The owner himself has said as much in interviews.
ASTAC makes a good point...a guest visitor in another country with any manners at all will at least try to speak in the local tongue, and hope for some help. To try, is to show a little respect. For OUR culture and OUR laws.
Legal Immigration is Good. Illegal Immigration is a crime.
Try getting into a South American country without a visa, and see what happens. Illegal immigration is criminal there, too.
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I thought a private business could refuse service to anyone as long as it was posted. I see signs all the time that read "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." You can yell and scream and picket the place but a private business doesn't owe you anything.
Personally I think this is a step in the right direction and I hope that sub shop sticks with it.
On a side note, I'm taking my family down to Mexico in a few months and guess what were doing to prepare?
Wait for it.
Here it comes.
We're learning Spanish.
Oh, to actually be able to communicate in a foreign country by learning the language. What a concept.
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I have been all over the world with the Navy.
We don't always stop at tourist ports or resorts. I do not expect the local businesses to speak english..
as our businessses should not be expected to speak any other language.
I'm so sick of this "you can't offend anybody" crap.
It makes us all victims and slaves to a few groups of people.
I may make a bid for office one day just to publicly not be "PC"
Not with any expectation to win, but just to make a point.
But... everyone understands English. All you have to do is speak it slower and louder. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandman
But... everyone understands English. All you have to do is speak it slower and louder. ;)
There are more than a few a-holes on the ship that thought that..
I found the best way to be treated like a human being overseas is to at least try...They applaud the effort and will be quite helpful....except in one particular european country that will remain nameless, that seem to get quite alot of enjoyment being rude to Americans, even when you can speak enough of their language to conduct business transactions
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English is the secod most spoken first language of the world, after Spanish.
That's AFAIK, and I am discarding China and perhaps too much of India, for the dialect difference is great enough for individuals from i.e. North and south China, to understand a word. They can write each other though....
English is the most common second language of the world. By far far and far. (The French are always pissed of about that :D)
But that's just English.
If you go to people settling in your country, be it an English speaking one or not, I at least regard it as minimal courtesy to the host to pick up the lingo. DOT.
The benefit of it being English is then double.
Firstly, as explained above, it's a very common language.
Secondly, it's in the basics, a very easy language.
There is a little catch though. Imagine this in my town:
"THIS IS ICELAND. WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ICELANDIC"
And yet a dead one. Uncommon language, and most people speak 3 languages or even more. And tourism is at large.
But how about:
"CES'T LA BELLE FRANCE. DANS VOTRE RESTAURANT ON PARLAIT EXCLUSIVEMENT FRANCAIS" :D
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Like Astac said, if I were to go to any non-English speaking country I would not expect them to accomodate my lack of knowledge of their language. That's just visiting, if I were to actually move to a non-english speaking country, well, i'd sure as hell invest some time into learning THEIR language.
From what i've heard, Europeans are at least bi-lingual, but then again, their countries are like American states to an extent.
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We have a large hispanic population here. About 95% are bilingual to some extent. I speak enough Spanish to hold a basic conversation with a customer. None of the rest of my anglo employees and a couple of my hispanic employees speak no Spanish at all.
We are lazy and arrogant as Americans. We should be teaching our children at least 2 languages. Most of the rest of the world is multilingual.
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u r saying there r fewer cunning linguists in teh US than a broad?
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Originally posted by rpm
We are lazy and arrogant as Americans. We should be teaching our children at least 2 languages. Most of the rest of the world is multilingual.
hear hear. my kids don't speak spanish at home. my wife (who is American from new jersey) and I are both fluent in three languages but english is what we speak at home. both of our daughters are now fairly fluent in spanish, the needs of the market have dictated they learn. my 16yr old son is now starting to grasp the importance of bilingualism. it won't be too long before he is bilingual as well. While english is the dominant business language today the importance of being fluent in spanish in the U.S. economy cannot be denied. those that are able to communicate well in both languages are much more competetive in the job market.
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Excuse my ignorance, but why are we so weak that we have to succumb to spanish or some other language in our own country, a country that speaks english predominantly? Why is it a necesity? Why can't immigrants learn english like good Americans? I speak english, some spanish, a little german, and a little french. I wouldn't call myself multilingual, or even bilingual.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Why can't immigrants learn english like good Americans?
Most do. In fact, most do before they even come here.
Personally, I don't think of it as 'succumbing' to foreign languages. As mentioned, of the Spanish-speaking population, a vast majority has at least some mastery of English. I seriously doubt that speaking Spanish will become a necessity any time soon. In business, in personal affairs, English will most likely remain the go-to language for generations to come (and if not, it will be replaced, if anything, by Chinese). And although having the ability to communicate with immigrants in their native language does have its advantages (if you're in sales it builds trust, compensates for shortcomings in their English abilities, allows for more fluid conversation), I cannot forsee a situation where living in the US will simply require a working mastery of Spanish or any other language.
Being bil-lingual is important for other reasons. First and foremost, I think, is that it implies a greater total cache of knowledge. It's a good workout for the brain and, finally, knowing a second or third language will actually improve your ability to speak your native language.
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I think everyone who migrates to the US should learn to speak English because it opens doors for them. English should be declared the official language of the US.
I think posting the sign was just dumb and was meant to provoke, not help anyone.
What's the big deal if somone tries to order in any other language than English? What's the worst thing that can happen? The guy actually gets pissed about that and would turn away business based on that?
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The funniest thing about this is, Geno's has their own language for ordering. Fortunately, you can learn it from the guys in front of you while you're in line.
As I remember there's "regular, with", "large, without", "small, no onions, with", etc..
What's with the "with" and "without"? Well, it's all about the Whiz. With Whiz, without Whiz, etc..
That's Cheese Whiz by the way, or something that kinda looks like cheeze whiz.
Yo, ant-knee, got any more whiz?
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Pfft that's just splitting hairs with dialect Algore
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ASTAC,
That rude country... You're talking about the UK right?
:)
--->Beetle *poke poke*
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Last summer i was on a morning flight out of Boston to West Palm Beach with a Philly layover.
Before leaving Boston i purchased a grinder for lunch during the layover.
Upon arriving in Philly, did the grinder become a hoagie?
I asked this question to one of the Philly airport police & was told quite authoratatively "There are no grinders in Philadelphia."
My reply was to ask if he was suggesting that some pinhead in Boston could make a hoagie...
...and then I said "Is there a problem officers?".
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lol!
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Originally posted by eagl
ASTAC,
That rude country... You're talking about the UK right?
:)
--->Beetle *poke poke*
No..but they do have a language that is similar to ours..but sometimes hard to understand.:rofl
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Originally posted by ASTAC
I have been all over the world with the Navy.
We don't always stop at tourist ports or resorts. I do not expect the local businesses to speak english..
as our businessses should not be expected to speak any other language.
I'm so sick of this "you can't offend anybody" crap.
It makes us all victims and slaves to a few groups of people.
I may make a bid for office one day just to publicly not be "PC"
Not with any expectation to win, but just to make a point.
I think it should go both ways, if you go to another country, don't expect them to understand your language or to learn in just to accomidate you, if they come here the same thing should be expected.
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It's kind of funny. I've been to Mexico more than a few times. Every time I go there the signs are in Spanish as is the paper work for vehicle registration and the temporary "visa" for visiting Sonora. The language the Officials speak is Spanish and there really isn't much done in the way to make sure there is an English speaker on duty for the foriegners to deal with. Some of the folks on duty may speak a few words but they are far from fluent. They really don't apologize about it either.
I don't sweat it much. I have a hispanic background but I am not Mexican, I'm American. I'll speak as much Spanish as I can in their country and I expect them to do the same in speaking English in this country. It's really a bit funny as I can get along with the Mexicans in their country better than I can get along with the "hispanics" in this country who seem to have a chip on their shoulder all the time. Sad.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Excuse my ignorance, but why are we so weak that we have to succumb to spanish or some other language in our own country, a country that speaks english predominantly? Why is it a necesity? Why can't immigrants learn english like good Americans? I speak english, some spanish, a little german, and a little french. I wouldn't call myself multilingual, or even bilingual.
Because it is a tool. You can use it to your advantage as I do. Isn't it ignorant not to take an edge over your opponent that you have at your disposal?
I attract more of the hispanic population in my community because I can interact with them. They find it funny that I stumble thru with my broken spanish, we strike up a conversation and bang, I have a new repeat customer. They tell their friends "hey the guy at IGA speaks spanish, he can answer your questions" and they come to me. It's more money in my pocket. That adds up fast in my business.
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I see no problem with the shopowners sign at all.
If he had said say... "order in english not in spanish" or any such thing it could be abit different.
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The world should IMHO just accept English as a Universal language.
That is, if it's not your first language, then the second. Everybody should speak 2 languages.
It's already half way there ;)
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I live in a state where the poupulation is effectivly bi-lingual, (NM) but the language of "Money" is english. If you want to play in the big money games, (more tha a care or house) ya do it in english......
Personaly I have Castillano, (Kinda like spanish but snobier) fair German, and Anglish...... and when stationed in Germany made a point in using as much of the locakl language as I could
Gunns
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as someone that has immigrated to another county, I can only say one thing on this, if you live there learn the customs & language.. if you do not want to then leave!. Why should someone that lives in country A have to learn the Language of Country B because you are to lazy to learn to speak the langauge where you live.
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Nothing wrong with learning other languages if you enjoy it or plan to travel a lot (euros can walk out of their countries) or.... it is some advantage to you..
Here, realisticly... spanish is the language of the lower class and the poor and the illegal without rights.
If you own a bussiness that caters to the poor and lower class and the illegals then learning spanish will help you. Check cahing places.... checker at Wallmart.... grocery stores...
For me... if they don't understand english here when they speak to me or I speak to them... I just ignore em. Most of us do.
To allow them to continue to speak spanish and half heartedly make some things bilingual is a well meaning but perfect way to keep one group at the lower end of the economic scale.
In the final analysis....learning a language is hard... if you aren't forced to do it you probly won't
lazs
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that may be the case in california but here, the people at both the high and low end end of the socio-economic spectrum usually speak spanish or portuguese. many are here from south america making significant real estate purchases and want to be catered to in the lanugauage they are most comfortable with. the guys with attitudes like yours have pretty much yielded the field to guys like myself that are equally fluent in the two prinicipal world languages. thats fine with me, I obtain an overflow of work for our shop from both the anglo and hispanic customer base with ease. often times an anglo customer will hear me direct a crew in spanish. some are amazed, some are more amazed when they discover they just did business with a "julio" or a "Qball". I just wink and smile at the comments that often typically follow of "oh I have many cuban friends".
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Blown way out of proportion. Read the sign again.
'This is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH'
It says please speak English. It doesn't say "if you don't order in English we're not going to serve you."
Geno's is trying to serve customers as fast as they can. If the order taker has to spend extra time to get an order because a customer can't (or won't) order in English, then that just slows up the food line for all the other customers waiting.
Is it really that hard for anyone who doesn't speak English to learn enough to order from a basic menu?
What is really irritating is when you go to a gas station or fast food joint in the USA and you can't communicate with the employee because the employee doesn't speak English. It's happened to me before. Went into a Texaco station next to our hotel near Miami one morning. We just wanted a danish and a cup of coffee before heading out. No coffee was made, so we asked the employee if she was gonna make more. She didn't now what we were saying (or at least acted like she didn't know) and just dismissed us. The filters and coffee packets were right there, so we decided to do it ourselves, as I'm sure most of you know, when you need coffee you NEED coffee. As soon as we touched the filters she started yelling at us in Spanish, to which we replied that it would be nice if she'd get off the phone and make the damned coffee if she didn't want us to make it.
We ended up drinking a damned Coke with our danish.
Moral of the story... don't wake up late and miss the continental breakfast in the hotel! ;)
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I agree that American education is lacking in languages. I'm glad to say that, at least around here, a second language has become mandatory beginning in 3rd grade. I just wish that someone hadn't decided that Spanish was the only choice. Hows THAT for discrimination? Mandatory Spanish? 'High pot, this is the kettle. You're black.'
Angus; You make a valid point about the same statement vis-a-vis Icelandic, but I would suggest again that the perspective is really socio-political, not the language. I don't imagine (although what do I know) that Iceland suffers the same particular problem we do, nor to the same degree, that such an expression of frustration would be necessary.
Besides, a well-mannered guest to your country SHOULD make an attempt to speak the native language. Might mangle it, sure, but at least try. And a new immigrant should WANT to learn it.
Ultimately, what really underlies my feelings is the idea that these people (wherever they are from) clearly demonstrate how they think...no respect for the Rule of Law, no respect for the language, no respect for our culture, and no desire to assimilate. It is OUR country, and we have a right to expect that an immigrant WANTS to be AMERICAN, not just to be in America to exploit us.
I also believe that this point of view applies universally, for any country. An immigrant should want to be where they are going, and want to be a part of a new culture in a very real and personal sense. If not, then it's only exploitation, and not worthy of my concern.
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If you live in a country that doesnt dub movies and tv shows then english should be a pice of cake to learn. If a book has been written in english it will often be translated to norwegian, but i try to find an english copy if i can.
In norway we dont dub, and i could speak english at a very early age. My aunt and cousins in Italy can hardly understand a word of it, but they have been "forced" to see all their shows on tv in dubbed Italian. There is something really funny wathing Friends or listening to john wayne in italian.
Dunno if they dub everything down in Mexico but i would guess they do.
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Not to downplay or overplay the importance of Spanish, or any other foreign language spoken in the US, I think it's safe to say that the significance of that sign was completely blown out of proportion.
It was up for something like 6 months before the hissy fits started, and, as somebody said earlier, business owners generally reserve the right to refuse service to anybody, for any reason.
I thought it ended with the 90s, but apparently, this country is still PC crazy. The scariest thing about this is that, political/social movements are often met with reactions of equal absurdity. If the PC craze subsides on its own, it'll be nice and comfortable for a while, but if these nutcases continue to freak out and start ideological battles over nothing, they're eventually gonna breed some radical anti-PC nutcases... That, I am not looking forward to.
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We are lazy and arrogant as Americans. We should be teaching our children at least 2 languages. Most of the rest of the world is multilingual.
Right, most of the rest of the world speak there native language, and english.
And to say "WE" are lazy and arrogant is very powerful statement. Speak for yourself.
Replace "we" with "you", and delete "as", and i bet you'll find it branded on a few jihad asses.
If you want to learn 80 languages to increase your business than more power to you, but to say that i'm lazy and arrogant because i don't is wrong.
I'm in the HVAC industry. Out of a 14 hour day, much of the time is spent on a roof somewhere, with the weather around 90 degrees and high humidity. Other times i'm contorted in a 100+ degree ceiling trying to get to a control panel. I'll get a few ours of a/c when i drive from job to job in nyc traffic, which in itself is mind numbing.
When i finally get a chance to get something to eat, i expect the guy or girl behind the counter to speak english. I don't even care if it's broken english, because at least then i know they are trying.
I think the people that come to this country expecting a red carpet welcome, and have no intention of assimilating into our society are the lazy and arrogant ones.
Think of the guy that runs that store. Customer comes in..
Owner says, "What would you like?"
Customer says, "Yada yada yada."
Owner says, "I'm sorry i don't understand you."
Customer says, "Yada yada yada."
Owner says, "NEXT!"
Customer says, "Yada yada yada stupido motigone gringo."
Imagine that happening often. From my experiance lefties will see it this way... The owner should learn spanish, or whatever language so he can better his business, and show compassion to these poor souls.
I see it the way the owner does... If i learn spanish, than i have to learn, chisese, japanese, italian, russian, pakistani, indian, ect.
Just put up a sign that says, 'This is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH'
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Originally posted by Nilsen
If you live in a country that doesnt dub movies and tv shows then english should be a pice of cake to learn. If a book has been written in english it will often be translated to norwegian, but i try to find an english copy if i can.
In norway we dont dub, and i could speak english at a very early age. My aunt and cousins in Italy can hardly understand a word of it, but they have been "forced" to see all their shows on tv in dubbed Italian. There is something really funny wathing Friends or listening to john wayne in italian.
Dunno if they dub everything down in Mexico but i would guess they do.
Nilsen,
The TV and films in Mexico are broadcast in Spanish, no English.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Nilsen,
The TV and films in Mexico are broadcast in Spanish, no English.
Yup thats what i would have guessed. :)
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Originally posted by Speed55
Right, most of the rest of the world speak there native language, and english.
And to say "WE" are lazy and arrogant is very powerful statement. Speak for yourself.
Replace "we" with "you", and delete "as", and i bet you'll find it branded on a few jihad asses.
If you want to learn 80 languages to increase your business than more power to you, but to say that i'm lazy and arrogant because i don't is wrong.
I'm in the HVAC industry. Out of a 14 hour day, much of the time is spent on a roof somewhere, with the weather around 90 degrees and high humidity. Other times i'm contorted in a 100+ degree ceiling trying to get to a control panel. I'll get a few ours of a/c when i drive from job to job in nyc traffic, which in itself is mind numbing.
When i finally get a chance to get something to eat, i expect the guy or girl behind the counter to speak english. I don't even care if it's broken english, because at least then i know they are trying.
I think the people that come to this country expecting a red carpet welcome, and have no intention of assimilating into our society are the lazy and arrogant ones.
Think of the guy that runs that store. Customer comes in..
Owner says, "What would you like?"
Customer says, "Yada yada yada."
Owner says, "I'm sorry i don't understand you."
Customer says, "Yada yada yada."
Owner says, "NEXT!"
Customer says, "Yada yada yada stupido motigone gringo."
Imagine that happening often. From my experiance lefties will see it this way... The owner should learn spanish, or whatever language so he can better his business, and show compassion to these poor souls.
I see it the way the owner does... If i learn spanish, than i have to learn, chisese, japanese, italian, russian, pakistani, indian, ect.
Just put up a sign that says, 'This is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING 'PLEASE SPEAK ENGLISH'
Couldn't agree more.
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Don't see anything wrong with the sign. Here, the government encourages people to always try to communicate with inmigrants in Catalan (local language), so that they can blend better.
Of course if they don't understand the language, you'll rarely see anyone not switching to spanish.
In my case, when we have kids, I'll be talking to them in english, the wife in catalan, grandparents in spanish, and they'll learn french at school.
Friend of mine did it (german-spanish-catalan-french) with their children and as long as they identify the language with the person, they never mix them up.
Daniel
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storch...it would depend on what business you are in. If you are dealing in low end products then it might be in your best interest to either know spanish or to hire people who do.
If you have people who are upper middle class in your area that only speak spanish then you would be wise to learn that language to deal with them if you have to....for the most part tho.....
spanish only speakers in this country are on the lowest of economic scale.
To allow them to wallow in spanish is to doom them.
lazs