Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunthr on October 27, 2000, 11:43:00 AM
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http://www.wwco.com/religion/docs/israel.html (http://www.wwco.com/religion/docs/israel.html)
An excerpt from this condensed historical explanation:
"Two thousand years ago the Romans committed a great wrong against the Jewish people. One hundred years ago the British made a promise that that wrong would be made right. Fifty years ago, after the Germans committed another great wrong against the Jewish people, the Americans tried to make up for it by honouring England's promise. In the process, they committed a great wrong against the Palestinians, who even today still sit shivering in their refugee camps.
The Palestinian Arabs hate the Jews for taking away their homes. The rest of the Arabs hate the Jews for taking away the homes of their brethren. All the Arabs hate the Americans for what they did to the Palestinians. So now today, in a region consisting of dozens of Muslim countries twice as wide as the United States, stretching from Morocco on the West coast of North Africa to Pakistan on the Indian Subcontinent, everyone speaks a form of Arabic, obeys Islamic law and worships a single god most recently revealed to him by Muhammad the last Prophet...
...everyone, that is, except for those living on one tiny little strip of land, forty-seven miles long.
For two thousand years the people there also spoke Arabic, obeyed Islamic law and worshipped the god most recently revealed by Muhammad. Now, however, those people are shivering in camps on the borders of what used to be their land. Today the people on that strip of land speak Hebrew, follow Talmudic law and worship the god of Abraham, Isaac, Rebecca and Sarah.
It has been suggested that there are historical parallels between the Arab-Israeli situation and the plight of the native inhabitants of North America (Native Americans / American Indians). Very few people are suggesting today that everyone whose ancestors came to North America after A.D. 1500 should go back where they came from so that the Native Americans can have their lands back. Why, then, was Palestine "returned" to the Jews? We were all taught as children that two wrongs don't make a right, so why did the U.S. try to right a two-thousand-year-old historical wrong by wronging the Palestinians?
Such speculation, however, is merely crying over historically spilt milk: wouldn't removing the Israelis yet again, or blasting them out of existence as the Arabs tried so many times to do, simply be more of the same? Viewing the Middle East as it is today, should we not seek to learn from the mistakes of the past? Shouldn't we seek to learn not only from the mistakes of the Romans and the Nazis, but also from the mistakes we ourselves as Americans made a mere half-century ago when we sought to offer a quick fix to someone else's problems?
Good intentions are not enough; surely only listening to and understanding the problems of those who must LIVE there, and then giving help IF it is requested, will finally bring peace.
Brian Chenault http://www.wwco.com/religion/docs/israel.html (http://www.wwco.com/religion/docs/israel.html)
Gunthr
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Yep. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Wise, wise words.
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Gunthr,
You are so uninformed I cannot find a word to describe your ignorance.
1. Yes, Israel is the historic home of the Jews. Be it 2,000 years ago or 50years ago it is the Jewish homeland. When does that time expire? Who makes that decision??
2. There is no such thing as a palistinian. It is a fictional name of an area on a map that has never been under the rule of a Palistian people. They were controlled by the British, Turkish and Germans over the past several hundred years. If there ever was a Palestine where were they in 1948?
How come the Israelies fought the Egyptions in 1956? Were was the Goverment and military of Palistine?
3. Why the Arabs including the Palistinians really hate the Jews. Because their religions leaders call for hatered as a means to control their people. There are many Holey places in Jeruselam to both Jews and Christians. They have been there for over 2,000years. About three hundred years ago the Arabs decided to build a Cemetary on top of one of the most Holy sites in Jewish history which is the gated entrance to old Jeruselam and then they Built the giant Gold Mosque on top of the Old Jewish temple known today as the Wailing(SP) wall. This is the same place were the Arabs start every riot you see on TV including the entire last series of riots. What do you think would happen if the Jews built anything on top of a moslum Holy site?
3. About Murder. Through out the History of Jews in the Middle east they have been murdered at the hands of arabs. What was there excuse then? In the 1920's and 30's their were famous slaughters of Jewish families living in the middle east. By the thousands. When the Nazi regiem took over in late 30's and 40's the arabs helped them round up them Jews and actively took part in murderous rampages through jewish settlements. What was the cause of the hatered then Gunthr???
4. The land of Israel is the size of Deleware. A 6 hour drive tip to tip. Mostly arid but with some dense forrest mixed in. Most of this land was completely uninhabited at the time of the creation of the Jewish state. In fact much of the land was already in the hands of Jewish families who had been there for years. When the Jewish homeland was declared they were immediately attacked by Egypt because there was no Palistine to protest. The Jews did not take Jeruselam until after they were attacked and repelled the surronding arab nations.
4. When the Jordanian Government gave the Palistinian people a home in Jordan in the 1970's Yasser Araphat repayed King Hussien with trying to kill him and over through his government. Then he struck a deal with Syria to invade Jordan to help him. King Hussien then called the Israelies to help him. The Israeli Air force did a fly by over the columns of Syrian tanks on there way to Jordan when they saw the IAF. At which time they turned around and went home without a shot being fired. The PLO was evicted from Jordan immediately afterword by an Arab nation.
4. There are many arabs still living peacfully in Israel. There communities are independant and untouched by the Israelies or their goverment. Their are an entire group of arabs that serve in the Israeli army known as Drews Arabs. They support a democratic goverment. There is a large black population in Israel from the Ethiopean airlift in the 1980's. As well as Spanish, French and German. Would this be possible in an Arab nation?
5. The majority of the PLO is made up of mercinaries from other countries. They use children as human shields and then cry like babies when they get shot. You can see a number of small children on the news every night holding AK-47's. They are the modern Hitler youth.
6.If you think the Arabs Bomb the US because they don't like Israel you are crazy. They have Bombed the French and the Germans. Two countries that do not qualify as freinds of Israel. They hate you and your western philosophy. Remember the Pograms and Crusades were wars between Arabs and Christians. Not Jews.
7. Gunthr, I don't know your political ideology but your screen name combined with your ignorance does not show well for you. I think you need to visit this part of the world before drawing such judgements.
Funked, What is your position on this. I am not clear??
F4UDOA
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Wasn't Jordan supposed to take all the Pallestinians? The land that's being faught over now, didn't Isreal win the land in the '73 war which they didn't start? These aren't smart arse questions, I realy want to know...
Udie
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Udie,
Good questions.
Yes, Jordan did take the Palistinians.
But then Yasser Arafat Plotted with Syria to assainate King Hussien and take over Jordan. Nice way to say thankyou?
Syria launched a column of Tanks toward Jordan and King Hussien who was wounded and his body guards dead pleaded to the US for help. Nixon said no, call the Israelies. At the last minute Hussien did just that and the Israeli Air Force did a fly by over the Columns of Syrian Tanks. Without a shot being firing Sryia's leader King Assad turned tail and headed home. The Palestinians were imediately evicted from Jordan. This Bond with Isreal cost Jordan and King Hussien deeply. He survived many assasination attempts since then until his recent death.
When Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel Egypts president Anwar Sadat was proptly assasinated.
And yes Israel took control of the Golan heights as well as the Suez canal from Egypt and much of the West bank were many Arabs now live. The Soviets threatened invasion and possible Nuclear weapons use during this time if the Israelies did not surrender the Suez canal. Nixon asked the Israelies to give it back and they did. As well as much of the West Bank since that time. It is called Jericho and is the home of Yasser Arafat himself and is under Palistinian control. The Israelies have refused to give back the Golan because it over looks densly populated area's of the country and is the strategic high ground between Syria and Israel. One look at this area and it's military significance is obvious. I assure you if the Iraelies had kept the Suez canal Gasoline would be allot cheaper than what you are paying now.
And yes Egypt, Syria and Jordan attacked Israel on the Holyest day on the Jewish calender, Yom Kippor. It is known as the Yom Kippor war.
What I have not said is that I have family in Israel and in Jeruselam. I have seen this country top to bottom as recently as this past August. It is not what is portrayed on TV. In fact it is the most social place with the most crowded topless beaches I have ever seen. It is a thriving modern culture with heavy investments from the likes of SAP, Microsoft and others. Most of all it is safe.
Israel does not have the death penalty, and does not cut peoples hands off for petty crime. It is however an oasis in a cultural desert. It is a democracy and defends itself as any soveriegn Nation would. And most of all it is willing to give the Palistinian people what they want, a homeland inclusive of part of Jeruselam. But when peace was close the real Palistinians showed up.
Their goal is not to regain their homeland. It is the elimination of all other ethnic cultures from what they believe is their land. Jewish and Christian alike. If you think this would end without an Israel you are sadly misinformed.
Thanks
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-27-2000).]
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If history has proven anything, its that we like to kill each other. Any excuse will do. And religion has been used many times. The existence of this game, to a small degree, proves that part of our nature.
Since the 60,s Hollywood has stressed the senselessness of war, yet at the same time provided us with an endless stream of cinematic bloodshed.
From personal experience. I can tell you. Combat is a rush. It is very exciting. I felt totally comfortable in 1968 Viet Nam. It was the only time in my life that I quit smoking, and stopped biting my nails.
I truly enjoyed combat. And like countless solders before me, have felt tremendous guilt for feeling that way. Such is the nature of man, I suppose.
Until we are able to control our nature. All this political philosophy, is just so much rationalization for doing what mankind has always done.
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QUOTE:
7. Gunthr, I don't know your political ideology but your screen name combined with your ignorance does not show well for you. I think you need to visit this part of the world before drawing such judgements
F4UDOA, my name is Stephen Guenther, thus "Gunthr".
I got this name from my father, Hermann Guenther. I am German descent. This is not relevent at all.
I just wanted to share a condensed history of the region with others like me who may wonder what all the insanity is all about.
Most of this is nuetral information. I'm still forming my own opinion, but it looks like my final view will differ a bit from yours, at least insofar as level of US involvement is concerned.
<S>
[This message has been edited by Gunthr (edited 10-27-2000).]
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Udie,
Good questions.
Yes, Jordan did take the Palestinians.
But then Yasser Arafat Plotted with Syria to assainate King Hussien and take over Jordan. Nice way to say thank you?
Another reason to trust ole big lips
When Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel Egypt president Anwar Sadat was promptly assassinated.
I'm sure Arafat had nothing to do with this either
The Israelis have refused to give back the Golan because it over looks densely populated area's of the country and is the strategic high ground between Syria and Israel. One look at this area and it's military significance is obvious.
can't blame them for this considering the hatred of their neighbors
What I have not said is that I have family in Israel and in Jerusalem. I have seen this country top to bottom as recently as this past August. It is not what is portrayed on TV. In fact it is the most social place with the most crowded topless beaches I have ever seen. It is a thriving modern culture with heavy investments from the likes of SAP, Microsoft and others. Most of all it is safe.
Israel does not have the death penalty, and does not cut peoples hands off for petty crime. It is however an oasis in a cultural desert. It is a democracy and defends itself as any sovereign Nation would. And most of all it is willing to give the Palestinian people what they want, a homeland inclusive of part of Jerusalem. But when peace was close the real Palestinians showed up.
Their goal is not to regain their homeland. It is the elimination of all other ethnic cultures from what they believe is their land. Jewish and Christian alike.
Sounds like Germany in WW2 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
If you think this would end without an Israel you are sadly misinformed.
Thanks
F4UDOA
thanks for the insight F4UDOA. Very informative. Hope your relative stay safe.
Eagler
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You've made up your mind, I've made up mine. Any discussion is just going to make us both angry.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-27-2000).]
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I regret the title of this post. I just cut and pasted. Reading over from F4U's viewpoint I can see how it might be taken as hostile to Jews, and I didn't intend that. If I could re-post it, I would title it, "How the problems between the Jews and the Arabs Began."
Sorry if I hurt feelings, didn't mean to.
<S>
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Actually, throughout history the Islamic world have always been tolerant of Jews who were 'people of the Book', so to speak. In fact, there are many occasions in medeival history when Islamic kingdoms became sanctuaries for Jews, because of western Christian persecution, ie pogroms. It was only when the Zionist party movement pushed for a Zion state, then pushed Jews into colonizing that state that the trouble began. I read that many Jewish colonists were shocked when they reached Palestine, because unlike what they had been told by the Zionist party there were in fact a lot of people living in Palestine already. Hence, the Palestinian exodus.
I know I'm about to be burned alive, but I felt I should put it out there.
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Well load up the APC leonid, thats good enough for me.
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Leonid,
Muslims and Jews have had their history's cross for centuries. Fo the most part things have gone well historically. Jews and Moslem lived together inside the walled city of Jerusalem during the crusades. Even in Israel today exist the Drews Arabs who choose to fight for Israel and who are active in the Israeli Army. However when the Jews tried to establish a homeland amoung 100,000,000, yes one hundred million arabs then the walls came crumbling down. The Muslim extremist do not only fight a war against Jews but against all of western culture. That's why Yasser Arafat will never be happy regardless of any deal made. Nothing short of the anialation of not only the Jewish state but any hint of Judeo-christian culture. This is about more than Arabs and Jews. When that is made clear the rest is easy.
F4UDOA
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Gunthr,
I am also sorry for any comments I may have made that were offensive. I am an emotional person and I react to quickly with my judgements at times.
<S>
F4UDOA
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<Shalom> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Sand jimbo's hat Jewwy bait cuz they don't stink. In udder woods , theyz jist jellous.
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F4UDOA, Gunthr, Leonid etc.
What I don't understand is, what is with this concept of a "Jewish State" ?
Since when is there a Christian homeland etc. ?
Hmmm..The area of Israel is the historic home of Christians too I guess...
Time for the UN to divide Israel and make an official Christian State !
Imagine...
Tomorrow the United nations decides that the country is now being divided up into;
Mohawk/Cree/Ojibwa/Sioux/Inuit etc. countries, because historically that is what it is.
That would be absurd.
We all have historical homelands but it would be hard to fit the whole world population into a few small areas.
How far back do we take it ?
Where did Adam and Eve live ?
(or the first Homo Sapien)
The League of Nations blew it.
I am of English ancestry.
But my HOMELAND is Canada.
For a American, Canadian, German, Pole etc to say that Israel is their HOMELAND just because they are Jewish is ludicrous.
Since the dawn of time, borders have been decided by who conquered whom.
If you disagree then you better move to a small strip of the eastern U.S. or Canada since you should turn over your house, city and land to native american aborignals.
That said, the Palestinians are not angels either. But that has already been mentioned in the thread.
Regards,
Snoopi
Oh what I wish for a world that is full of people who don't even know what the terms; black,white,potestant,catholic,buddist,german,french,indian,south african,gay,straight etc. mean.
[This message has been edited by Snoopi (edited 10-30-2000).]
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Snoopi,
Great question!
There is a Jewish homeland because Judeism is viewed to be a Race or a culture more than a religeon. Biologically no, this is not true but either is being Italian. But look at it this way.
1. Jews do not seek converts. If you are Jewish your mother HAS to be Jewish. You can convert of you want to but it is not easy. And up until the last 50years it wasn't possible at all. And this is only for people outside of Israel. I don't think Israel recognizes converted Jews as Jews. It's like trying to convert to being Italian. Because of the fact that your mother has to be Jewish and there are no converts virtually every Jew in the world has real roots back to our homeland, Israel.
2. If you had any Jewish blood in your family during the Spanish inqusition, The pograms in Russia or the Holocost in Germany you were considered Jewish and sent to die.
Many people who did not even know that they had Jewish blood in them were killed. There was a German Nun who I believe was made a saint recently, that was killed during the Holocost. She had no idea that there she had a Jewish Grandfather and therfore she was killed at the concentration camps for being a Jew.
3. The worst mistake any Jewish person can make in Socioty today is to believe that they are white. We are only 50years away from Nazi Germany and the world is far from hate free. To forget your culture and your past as a Jew is a death sentance for sure.
Anytime I hear of any race being attacked regardless of the reason I always feel like mine could be next. Even the Arabs who are the mortal enemy of the Jews have the abilty to bring out anger against the Jews. It is bizarre. Any time in my life I have forgotten who I am someone always steps from a crowd to remind me. Sometimes it's a total stranger, sometimes it's a close friend but there will always be an underlying tension between races in this world. The difference is now if anyone wants to come get us they know where to find us. Except this time we are Armed and Dangerous.
4. BTW, their is a Christian homland. The Vatican. Some people may say that it is not for all Christians but much like other races such as Asian and Black groups tend to be identified as a whole. The Vatican also owns more land and has more money around the world than Israel every will.
And besides, the next time some deranged lunatic( a Sadam Hussien like person) wipes out one third of the worlds Christian population as part of an Ethnic cleansing alla Adolf Hitler, Milosavich, or the Amercian Government when freeing the US of it's native inhabitants. Then Christian people will no doubt become much more provincial. Even in the current state of affairs where Christianity is the dominate religeon in the world there are many hate groups that feel threatened. I cannot imagine the reaction if any real threat were ever to arise.
Later
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 10-30-2000).]
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Sorry to bring up this subject but it has to be.
I am sick and tired of Jews always using the “I am a poor Jew” show so that they can mislead the human race.
You can not say one word against Jews without them crying out you are a Nazi, so that we have mercy with them , so that they can mislead us, to believe that they can do what they want with the world and the Palestinians without any consequences.
Before any one starts yelling at me that a am Nazi, I should say that a am half Semitic origin myself, but not Jewish.
For any one who does not understand, Jews are lost Arabs.
Or should I say Semitic people who descended out of North Saudi Arabia. I like saying this because Jews do not like to hear this.
[This message has been edited by ICEWIND (edited 10-30-2000).]
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Snoopi,
Great question!
There is a Jewish homeland because Judeism is viewed to be a Race or a culture more than a religeon. Biologically no, this is not true but either is being Italian. But look at it this way.
well well, why you use Italian as example? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
1. Jews do not seek converts. If you are Jewish your mother HAS to be Jewish. You can convert of you want to but it is not easy. And up until the last 50years it wasn't possible at all. And this is only for people outside of Israel. I don't think Israel recognizes converted Jews as Jews. It's like trying to convert to being Italian. Because of the fact that your mother has to be Jewish and there are no converts virtually every Jew in the world has real roots back to our homeland, Israel.
2. If you had any Jewish blood in your family during the Spanish inqusition, The pograms in Russia or the Holocost in Germany you were considered Jewish and sent to die.
Many people who did not even know that they had Jewish blood in them were killed. There was a German Nun who I believe was made a saint recently, that was killed during the Holocost. She had no idea that there she had a Jewish Grandfather and therfore she was killed at the concentration camps for being a Jew.
3. The worst mistake any Jewish person can make in Socioty today is to believe that they are white. We are only 50years away from Nazi Germany and the world is far from hate free. To forget your culture and your past as a Jew is a death sentance for sure.
Anytime I hear of any race being attacked regardless of the reason I always feel like mine could be next. Even the Arabs who are the mortal enemy of the Jews have the abilty to bring out anger against the Jews. It is bizarre. Any time in my life I have forgotten who I am someone always steps from a crowd to remind me. Sometimes it's a total stranger, sometimes it's a close friend but there will always be an underlying tension between races in this world. The difference is now if anyone wants to come get us they know where to find us. Except this time we are Armed and Dangerous.
lol
4. BTW, their is a Christian homland. The Vatican. Some people may say that it is not for all Christians but much like other races such as Asian and Black groups tend to be identified as a whole. The Vatican also owns more land and has more money around the world than Israel every will.
this is wrong man, the christians (as religion) have a sacred place: Gerusalem, and Bethlem, where Jesus (a jew (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) born and live.
And besides, the next time some deranged lunatic( a Sadam Hussien like person) wipes out one third of the worlds Christian population as part of an Ethnic cleansing alla Adolf Hitler, Milosavich, or the Amercian Government when freeing the US of it's native inhabitants. Then Christian people will no doubt become much more provincial. Even in the current state of affairs where Christianity is the dominate religeon in the world there are many hate groups that feel threatened. I cannot imagine the reaction if any real threat were ever to arise.
Are you menacing to wage war to Christians? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
MAN, WAKE UP!!!
The dominant religion in the world is the DOLLAR!!
Naso
America to the native americans!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Sorry to get personal but people do not trust the Jewish fairy tails of F4UDOA
******= Reichs Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels
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Icewind,
I don't think you are a Nazi. An idiot maybe but not a Nazi.
Where did anyone say anything about poor me??
We stopped waiting for people to take pity on us when 6 million of us died waiting for the rest of Europe to come do something. When everyone took a pass we got the picture.
As far as Jews being lost Arabs? That's interesting considering the Jewish calender goes back 5,000years. The prophit Alla is only about 1,700 years old. Who's lost? Why do your people insist on building their mosques next to our Temples which have been their for thousands of years? I have been to the middle east many times. Your people still haven't figured out to stop mating with the camels. They are living on the side of highways in tents raising goats.
Do you think I am making a joke? Do you think I am kidding? Why don't you go take a look and find out what is real and what is on your TV.
Naso,
I used Italy as an example because in this country especially in the New York, New Jersey and Philadelphia area's their is a very large Italian population that are all very proud of their heritage. Genetically speaking they are no different from anybody else but they feel that their ancestory is very import and relates to that part of the world. Jews are no different. The US or Canada is a bad example because most people here(except native americans) have emmigrated here. I have been to Italy and it is a beautiful country with great woman and Food. However the people there have very little in common with the people of the same decent that live in the US. But the strong sense of a homeland is still there. It is the same for Jews and Israel.
Also I agree with you about Jerusalem being the center of the Jewish-Christian heritage. I also think it is in the best interest of both religions that that area is controlled by the government of Israel if you whish to preserve it's history.
Menacing for a war with Christians? I don't know where you got that? What I did want to say that if something happened to the Christian world like what has happened to the Jews in the Holocost or the American Indians or recently with the Muslims in Croatia: That there would be an enormous uprising against the invading Nation and a polarazation of the people.
Naso, remember. More people have died as a result of religious or racial reasons than any other cause throughout history. It is only likely to happen again. Considering the three larging religious groups in the world today are Buddist(china), Muslims(india/arabs) and Christians. It is likely that it will be centered between two of these three groups.
Later
F4UDOA
BTW. Watch the movie "Rules of Engagement" if you want a better perspective of the middleast.
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Sure; That movie is so real... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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>“We stopped waiting for people to take pity on us when 6 million of us died waiting for the rest of Europe to come do something. When everyone took a pass we got the picture.”
( It seems you still want some pity…)
Sorry , now this makes me aggressive, why always count the 6 Million Jews, what is with the other millions of people that died in WWII especially Russians and, Americans, Finnish, Germans and Japanese, Chinese and the list goes on.
Of course the chosen people of God are more valuable than other humans.
Why the hell do you always have to bring up this number? Of course, because the others don’t count for you and that is even written in the Old Testament.
Sorry to disappoint you I am not a Moslem .
And may I remind you that you are of Semitic origin like the Arabs. Jews are just an Arab tribe out of many Semitic cultures like Palestinians. And believe me there are much older Semitic cultures than the Jews.
A recently done genetic test between Arab Palestinians and Arab Jews proves this,
Jews did not like this fact.
Arabic and Hebrew languages are related with each other and belong to the same Semitic family branch.
Do you think I am a Idiot? Get a history book you fool and deal with old Semitic religious ideas.
Do you think it is a coincidence that Abraham/Jesus and Mohammed were all of Semitic Origin.
You will realize that you Jews are not as unique as you think.
Anyway the hobbies of the Jews is to betray every prophet God sent to them, be it any Old testamentary Prophet or even Jesus or Mohamed. Did you ever think about this,God might not like you anymore because of your arrogance?
You Jews get so much money from the world shoved in your asses. Billions from Germany and America. Ups… sorry I mean you blackmail it from the world.
With out this money you would have not achieved anything.
>“Your people still haven't figured out to stop mating with the camels”
To all Christians out their grab yourself the Jewish Talmud and you will recognize the ugly face of the Jews.
They say the same thing about Christians MATING WITH animals and other nasty things about Christians.
You will realize that not the Moslems want to destroy Christians, but the Jews themselves.
This is even written in the New Testament.
And P.S.
Tariq Aziz the Prime Minister of Iraq is a Christian.
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Charles Darwin PLEASE HELP US !!!!!!
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ICEWIND,
Err cold fart, what ever.
That is what I luv about you people. Give you a forum and you show your real colors.
You can't stand that Jews are the original religion. If you want to hate us you have to hate part of yourself. Money up our asses? That's right, we do. Because we don't spend it on as fast as we can earn it? Because we are not trailer trash? Does it offend you that you cannot achieve while others pass you by?
You must feel very insignificant being a poor little sad boy. Do you want to be pittied? Are you tired of people taking advatage of you??
What is your religion, race? Why don't you share a little about yourself?
Here is something about me.
1. 4 years active duty Airforce
2. 10 years in RF technology: Systems Analyst
3. Home owner
4. I have a family history in this country back to 1800.
Who the hell are you? You miserable peice of toejam. I pay more in taxes than you make a year. Why don't you tell me a little about yourself?
F4UDOA
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Well put Iceman. <S>
Off with the mask F4
[This message has been edited by Wotan (edited 10-30-2000).]
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Wotan,
Is that a PO box address or do you live in a trailer too?
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My house my income my…. very week arguments.
I really feel sorry for you.
Your problem is that you can not stand the fact that you are related with Arabs.
Tell me why don’t you admit it. Do you have complexes with your Semitic descendents? That’s the only reason I am bugging you.
Or are you a Jewish Anti-Semite?
A Racist?
I noticed that my hard words have offended you, well now you know how it feels when you and certain other Israelis deform the Palestinians and Arabs as the most evil empire of the world. Does this make you aggressive and upset , now you now how the others side feels.
I do not hate the Jews because they are Jews I dislike Zionists , I am tired that always certain Jews always get to say what they like in public. But the public never gets to hear the other side of the story. Be honest with yourself do you really believe every thing you are saying? You know it is not the full truth.
Do you really think I trust the Arabs completely as being the nice guys?
It is not up to me or you to decide whether Israel or Palestine should exist or not. It is up to the people who live in this region with peaceful intensions.
We can not solve this problem , you can not throw all Palestinians or Israeli’s out of this territory as certain Israeli’s and Palestinians would like to do.
I do not want to start the fight again, but I did not write the Talmud, it is not my fault if there are anti Christian parts.
The same counts for New Testament Judo-Christians themselves were talking about destroying the Jews.
And Judaism is not the first Monotheistic, or only Religion.
You have a Monotheistic Egyptian God 50 years before the Jews.
You have the Aryan Persian prophet Zarathustra He founded Zoroastrianism
A Monotheistic Religion.
I know that certain Jews who do not except the Jewish State, because they say
it is against God, Israel has to relive first when the Jewish Messias comes.
The leader of this group is called Rabbi Hirsch he lives in Jerusalem.
I like Rabbi Hirsch. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Just tell why you can not accept the fact that you are related to the Arabs?
That’s the only thing I want to know from you!
Lets go apart as democrats with different opinions to certain issues.
Ps
I have a very exact family tree that starts 1750.(only men no women)
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I find it funny that we can actually learn something from this pathetic thread. I think it is something we can all understand.
No matter what race, religion, or nationality, we're all in it for ourselves. The Israelis want the most and what is best for them, as do the Palestinians and for that matter every damn country in the world. We all say what we have to to get our own way and that is just the way it is.
Who's wrong and who's right? Nobody of course. Might is right and history will stand behind this assumption. I challenge anyone to defy this.
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Icewind,
I do not care that my people come from the same land as arabs nor do I care if we share the same blood. I am not even sure why that is supposed to be offensive. All people on this earth essentially share a peice of common history.
But if you want to chase the roots of Genoside and murder, well you are barking up the wrong tree. The Talmud you refer too and no nothing about is the first civil law in recorded history. It contains no death penalty. That is where Jews and Fundamentalist muslims part ways. We do not chop off body parts for petty crimes. Their are many differances but that is not why you responded.
You come from a class of people around the world that make statements like you have made about money and power in this country and the fact that you don't have either.
I will take a guess and say that you are white, low income and do not have an education. All of which is fine until you start blaming other people for your short comings. This is about you Iceboy and your feeling that somehow you deserve more because you are a member of a superior race, but somehow all of this has been taken away. Well I guess when you can't blame yourself anyone else will do. You are a Timothy McViegh clone. Pathetic really. So come on.
Tell us a little about yourself?? Prove me wrong.
F4UDOA
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I am trailer trash!! So you can’t cut me down any lower!
Guys look back at this thread and become enlightened on how wars start. You both need to realize one fact, which seems to elude both of you. The victorious army writes history books. This is especially true of conflicts that happened 1000’s of years back. So the “truth” will never really be known. I also believe that although as the bible says that the kingdom of God is in our hearts. The reigning religion in our world is money! Those in power use religion, famine, high gas prices and whatever other tools they have at their disposal to make us kill each other for their gain. Most of us will never truly understand the complexity of our world or ever know the face of the puppet masters.
I believe threads like this are necessary just as history is necessary to teach our children how not to behave. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Just a thought.....for many years the Israelis and Palestinians have been killing one another........the reason doesn't matter. One would think that either, or both would suddenly come to the conclusion.."This ain't working!" I would definately defend my homeland against an aggressor. But in the case of Israel and the surrounding Arab States, including the Palestinians, this really isn't as cut and dried as Germany invading Poland. Somehow, someway, someone should apply, dare I say logic? and resolve this issue instead of raising their children to die, and their childrens children to die for years to come.
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Chango, Hayo, <S>!
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F4UDOA:
there has been many ancient religion predating Judaeism. It's just one of the older current ones.
Praying to Nirfur, God Of All Things Yellow And Furry And He Who Decides What Is Yellow And Furry is, to me, as valid as adhering to any established religion, and makes about as much sense.
At any rate, I do not count "Jew" as a statement regarding enthicity, since doing so would be wrong (or as wrong as calling an African American a...let's take South African.). You're either Israeli, or your're something else. Religious faith doesn't change that.
Your mileage may vary.
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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
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F4UDOA:
Go away your starting to nerve me. Go play in the occupied territories,
THE AMERICAN SENATE! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
But I still will react to you.
1.
“You come from a class of people around the world that make statements like you have made about money and power in this country and the fact that you don't have either. I will take a guess and say that you are white, low income and do not have an education.”
Starting the old racist number again?
Very interesting are you trying to tell us that people with low income and low education have no write to express there thoughts and opinions because they are worthless and do not count for you and your rich Hebrew friends, that is very
Anti-Democratic .
So once more a Anti-Democratic Zionistic face emerges.
Maybe certain groups of people, be it White or Black do not like you because of this fact, think about it!
2.
Educate yourself and buy some history books and you will understand the true history of the middle East!
3.
The Talmud is not the first Civil Law of the World. It is the Babylonian Codex or even the older Sumerian Codex of Family Civil Law.
The Jews copied it, about 500 B.C.
4.
Who I am or what am I ?
I will give you a tip.
I myself come from a so called upper class family.
I am not of full Aryan descendence.
Hitler would have liked to gas me as a bastard race.
[This message has been edited by ICEWIND (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Just waiting for the second round. Always funny to see how low people can go (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Who the hell are you? You miserable peice of toejam. I pay more in taxes than you make a year...
(You misspelled word "peice" ?)
That was a good one but I'm sure you can give us something "Excellent" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
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ICEWIND,
Is is so hard to ask you to identify yourself? Why won't you crawl out from behind your rock into the sunlight so we can see you?
1."Very interesting are you trying to tell us that people with low income and low education have no write to express there thoughts and opinions because they are worthless and do not count for you and your rich Hebrew friends, that is very
Anti-Democratic .
So once more a Anti-Democratic Zionistic face emerges.
Maybe certain groups of people, be it White or Black do not like you because of this fact, think about it!"
1. Anti Democratic? Have you seen the Democratic perty ticket this year?
Gore/Leiberman?
2."Educate yourself and buy some history books and you will understand the true history of the middle East!"
I have been to the middle east. Why don't you buy a plane ticket and find out for yourself? Why don't you take a walk through Jerricho or Ramalla and find out what it means to live in a Arab village? I am sure they will embrace you with open arms.
3."The Talmud is not the first Civil Law of the World. It is the Babylonian Codex or even the older Sumerian Codex of Family Civil Law.
The Jews copied it, about 500 B.C."
The next time im in Babalonia or Sumeria I will stop and ask somebody. The Arab countries such as Iran, Iraq, Syria and others still use a legal system that makes it legal to abuse woman, cut off appendages and capital punishment without anything resembling due prosses. Is this the Democracy you are in favor of? I think you would be at home there.
4."Who I am or what am I ?
I will give you a tip.
I myself come from a so called upper class family.
I am not of full Aryan descendence.
Hitler would have liked to gas me as a bastard race."
Are you ashamed of something? Why don't you just spit it out. What is upper class? Do you have all of your teeth? You might be a bastard but I don't think your race is responsable. Why are you so concerned with how much money Jews have. It just drives you crazy that people can achieve while you wallow in toejam. I don't need your W2, just tell me how you got so educated? Have you traveled the world? You don't even list an address. What part of this fine world do you live in?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
F4UDOA
Stega, I will buy spell check if it makes you happy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And if you don't like my comments toward Mrs. Icewind you should read how she started her prior post.
You Jews get so much money from the world shoved in your asses. Billions from Germany and America. Ups… sorry I mean you blackmail it from the world.
With out this money you would have not achieved anything.
Funny I must have been out lunch when that check came in. BTW, didn't the Nazi's steal that money from the Jews?
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StSanta,
I am aware that Jedaeism is not the oldest religion on the block. And I'm not even going to say it is one I would choose if choosing were an option. I certainly wouldn't go with the one that draws such an unbelivable amount of racial violence. But to convert from your faith when so many have died is to sell-out. I am not a religious person by any means.
However does this make me any less Jewish? No. Why, if is just a religion then non-religious Jews would have been spared at the Holocost right? There are far to many cultural similarities in Jews from all over the world than define us to say that it is just a religion. It is at a minimum cultural at at an extreme a race of it's own. I could no more stop being Jewish that I could change the color of my skin. I could emmigrate to differant country and change citizenship but it does not change anything. Even if I were to convert religions I would not loose my identity. Sounds like a race to me?
lATER
F4UDOA
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I personally subscribe to the human race.
If an Arab kills a Jew, He is killing his brother...If an Israeli kills an Arab, He is killing his brother.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Black, White , Pink or Fuscia....we all have the same genetic makeup...War is state sanctioned murder. Dont try to whitewash it any other way.
We currently are a murderous race. Its sad that we have to fear for our lives due to someone elses political, religious, or jealous viewpoints.
Get a grip on reality.
Ping the Pissed
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Originally posted by Ping:
I personally subscribe to the human race.
If an Arab kills a Jew, He is killing his brother...If an Israeli kills an Arab, He is killing his brother.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Black, White , Pink or Fuscia....we all have the same genetic makeup...War is state sanctioned murder. Dont try to whitewash it any other way.
We currently are a murderous race. Its sad that we have to fear for our lives due to someone elses political, religious, or jealous viewpoints.
Get a grip on reality.
Ping the Pissed
One word .... EGO
We haven't got passed that yet. As soon as we do it'll be a better place for all.
Eagler
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I only know one thing:
Coran says that Jews, christians and islamists are all "people of the book".
Jewish religion gave birth to Christianism.
Islamism was borne from Jewish religion too, with some good differences, but Jew's god is Islam's god, and Christian's god.
Now FOR GOD'S SAKE! (yes, God's sake...yah know god said that we are ALL BROTHERS!) can you stop this STUPID offensive?
F4UDOA, your statement that you are worth more than other because you pay more taxes is, lets say this lightly, very lacking.
ICEWIND, WWII holocaust is one of the darkest pages in history. Shows clearly how stupid hate can lead people to do atrocious things. And while many colectives were touched by nazism (homosexuals, gypsies...), the most suffering people both in numbers and treats were the Jews. To deny that is to be blind, and excuse me ,Stupid.
If you both really believe in GOD, the One and Only God (yeah StSanta, Nirfur, God Of All Things Yellow And Furry And He Who Decides What Is Yellow And Furry is) (lol (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)), STOP THIS STUPIDITY.
We are all brothers in religion, Catholics ,Jews and Mahometans (Islamists, or whatever the F"!·ing way it is said in english). So lets shake hands and forget this STUPID thread.
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RAM, Eagler, Ping,
You are all right. And I personally agree with each one of you and I am embarresed to ahev to deal with this on the message boards. But I have an over reative self defense mechanism that makes me want to strangle this person for using stereotype racial attacks against me. Again I apologize and I will end this non-sense very soon.
BTW, RAM I did not intend to say I was worth more than him becasue I pay more in taxes. I just want him to know that I have contributed my share to this country in taxes as well as military service.
Thanks
F4UDOA
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4 years airforce get out of here with that crap pal. Trailor, house apartment, condo tell me whats acceptable so I will know. I spent 6 years on a nuclear submarine. I dont work for anyone but my self. "It used to that an anti-semite was someone who did not like Jews; now an anti-semite is anyone the Jews don't like" the honorable Minster Louis Farrakan.
Off with the mask was a reference to your cloak of victimization. Have you seen the pictures of what has been taking place in Isreal? children with stones against apc's, trained soldiers, and bullets. I don't care who you are or what you have been through that doesn't make whats happening there right. If you feel the need to insult me I only ask that its through my email addy and not on bbs. The rest of the folks on here don't need to read that garbage. I typed nine words none of which was deserving an insult.
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Pray not for an end to the slaughter...but for VICTORY!!!
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And Wotan, maybe if you stop and think WHO is sending kids with stones against APCs, then you know that musulmans in palestine aren't saints, either. because SOMEONE is sendings those children to throw those pieces of stone, right?.
Think about it. In Palestine problem there are responsabilities for BOTH sides. And not a few of them go to the musulman side.
And stop the personal offensive "i've been 4 years in..." "I was 6 years on..." "you paid taxes but I did..."
Thats nothing. Hear me? NOTHING. You in your life are what you proof not what you serve in the military, or the taxes you pay.
I measure the good or bad person you are by the respect you have to other's points of view,political beliefs, religious beliefs, race, sexual tendences...everything.
Not by the money they have, the taxes they pay or the years they served aboard a cruiser, plane or whatever.
I have known some REALLY nice robbers. I have known a couple of STUPID "honest" bussinesman people.
SO, please, show here that you are good persons and stop, for once at all, this stupid thing.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 10-31-2000).]
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Ram its over as far as I'm concerned. One thing though it does not matter who sends the kids ( although if someone believes a arab mother or father doesn't love his children enough to prevent them from being used as cannon fodder then that in and of itself demonstrates the old attitude "they aint like us" ) should the response of a civilized society be to respond with bullets againts those children. I never intended nor do I intend any insult, opinions differ so be it.
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Hey Woton,
The plain and simple differance between Israelies and the Arab extremist(notice I say extremist) is that Arabs use their children to carry weapons and bombs into a war zone as human shields as well as targeting Israeli children. Such as bus bombings, bombings in open markets and attacks on sidewalk cafe's.
Due me favor. Next time you spend 6 years under water. Don't bother to use a boat. Feel free to sink to the bottom with the rst of the sea scum.
BTW, I didn't call anyone an anti-semite the entire thread. I really don't care if you like me or my people. Their really is only one thing that matters. Clods and Gods. Gods rise to the top, and clods? Well you know.
F4UDOA
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Pyro please lock, or better yet delete this thread. It is very unpleasant and not worthy of further display. Too many heated words have been written and it is serving no purpose towards the game or drawing anyone together.
Ram, good try brother <S>
Mav
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How did a thread posting historical information and a few serious questions turn into THIS stupidity ?
I agree delete the thread or lock it.
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A Salute to WOTAN
F4UDOA
Yes it is true with certain terms I deformed you and your Jewish faith.
But I still don’t trust you , you deformed the Arabs and Palestinians in your early threads with a friendly smile as if you were the good and nice man, who only wants the best for human race. You put off your mask with your silly insults that have nothing to do with truth. You and your kind are dangerous, not me or any one else in this thread.
I will not change my mind about the Jews victimizing themselves.
I am half Palestinian and half German.
Terms that you used like there is no such thing as a Palestinian sound very racist and upsetting to me.(That is the reason I could not answer you where I come from, because in your terms I simply do not exist)
Saying that Palestine children are the modern Hitler-Jugend sounds very deforming. A heavily armed Israeli Army is the one shooting at them.
What do you expect from me or the Palestinians, a well armed and trained Military force is fighting against a Civilian Population .160s of Palestinians have been killed and over 7000 thousand injured over the last weeks, and you expect us to be quite and let the Israelis do everything they want with us.
Israelis are besieging us , we are not besieging them. With all these odds against us we still have the courage to fight back.
We are David and you have become Goliath.
With all this going on it makes me sick to here that certain Israelis portray them self’s as the poor victims.
Why can not certain Israelis understand that you are not the victims anymore you have became the perpetrator.
This my last word!
We are not like the Jews, we do not want mercy or pity from the world we want justice!
[This message has been edited by ICEWIND (edited 11-01-2000).]
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Finally,
At least no we can speak on equal terms.
ICEWIND, you may be Palistinian but saying that there was an autonomous government with a military in 1948 really isn't true. That part of the world changed hands many times in the prior 50years. The only thing that was constant about the state of Palistine was the picture on the map. The original plan in 1948 did not call for most of what is now Israel to be given to the Jews. Plus there were already many Jewish settlement in the area from years before. It was the attack on the Jews by Egyption backed forces that forced expansion.
As far as Jews victimizing ourselves. Well we didn't kill ourselves in the Holocost. What do you expect people to do? Suck it up and forget about it? Move on? It was 60years ago, many survivors are still here as well as their children.
You are half Palistinian and half German. Why do think you would have been killed by Hitler? The Arab nations were more than willing to help round up Jews and deliver oil to Germany. There was no conflict with the Arabs and Germans. In fact I have read about Vichy French in North Africa along with the Arabs destroying Jewish businesses and homes in the occupation. Don't think this raltionship has been forgotten when policy with Arab nations is discussed.
The Palastinian people complain abou the way their people are treated. 160 dead 7000 injured. Why do they bring there children to riots? Why to the people with weapons stand amoung unarmed people? Why attack a military outpost if you don't want to get shot? These people are not gunned down in their homes. They are rioting. Yesterday an Anti-tank weapon was used as well as machine gun fire. They were killed. I saw an interview on 60minutes in one of the riots. The people were throwing stones and attacking an outpost but the man being interviewd insisted it was a peaceful demonstration? What do people expect? Would the US act any differently? We lost over 200 Marines in Lebanon in 1981 because of our non aggression. And again in Somolia when "They were just kids" attitude was taken.
Terrorism and boarder clashes will never defeat Israel. If it is a homeland you want then it must be negotiated. If it is "justice" you want then I'm afraid allot more people will die on both sides.
F4UDOA
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Hi Im Jewish by decent and I aint prejudiced I hate you all equally (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I still can't see why a Jewish person who was born in the U.S. can see Israel as his homeland.
I also cannot see why a Born American of Palestinian descent would see Palestine as his Homeland.
From what I understand, ALL Jewish Israelis are immigrants since post WW2. (or their offspring)
I'm an athiest so I have no bias/loyalties to either side.
I still think the League of Nations blew it.
The ships from America should have been sent HOME.
Then again maybe it's time that Israel and Palestine gave up some land to make "ChristianLand". After all Jerusalem IS where Christianity started.
(not serious..just pointing out how absurd it is)
Regards,
Snoopi
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Yawn
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Jack Szarkowski
S/L rf-a
No. 308 (Polish) Sqn
Royal Air Force