Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on June 15, 2006, 05:35:38 PM
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http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_Boeing_KC-135_Stratotanker-Airline_USA_-_Air_Force_Aviation_Video-6303.html
Very cool and education video I thought a lot of you would be interested in...a big out to the airman commenting throughout the video, he does a spectacular job.......
now its my understanding that the tanker fly's on auto pilot and the recieving (sp) aircraft is flown manually....Have there ever been any tests done by the Air Force to have the tanker emit a beacon or radio signal that the recieving aircraft could track on auto pilot like the signal an auto pilot on auto land would track a localizer?
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cool:aok
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Cool video
I did 7 years up here at the Maine ANG, we have KC-135s. If you non-military types every have a chance to go on a refuleing sortie, dive on it. Video doesnt give you the same "whoa" effect as actually being there.
I went on 20 or so refueling sorties. My favorites were the FB-111s out of the former Pease AFB in NH. The F-16s & F-15s are a bit tricker for the boom operators since their fuel door is well behind the cockpit. One of the neatest birds (i think) to refuel is the A-10s. You just HAVE to go very very slow for those things. And seeing that big ole canon bouncing around 14 feet behind you is impressive.
Still think the sexiest plane I ever got to watch be refueled was an F-4
Its an awesome view up there from the boom pod. I remember us refueling an F-16 one day, we were at 29k. He backed off, rolled inverted then swooped doooooowwwwn....you just felt your stomach go whoooaaa.
The KC-135s is a pretty old bird, like the B-52. I think the "newest" one we had at Bangor was a 1957 model.
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localizer is a pretty big piece of equipment...
(http://www.remotesys.com/localizer.jpg)
an SR-71 pilot's book i read talked about refueling in IMC, but i forget exactly how they did it:furious
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Too cool!
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Originally posted by Debonair
localizer is a pretty big piece of equipment...
[IMG]
So is a KC-135 =)
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also it doesn't give any vertical guidance, you could still miss the tanker by 20,000'
(http://www.modairport.com/images/ils.jpg)
you need one these too,
zOMG the kc135 would end up looking like a 1943 luftwaffe nachtjaeger :O :O :O
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Who needs all that new fangled stuff?
(http://www.afa.org/magazine/March2003/0303qmark5.jpg)
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(http://www.unrealaircraft.com/forever/images/aeronca40.jpeg) :O :O :O
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Debonair, that's ground to air refueling and has no place in this thread.
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i was on the receiving end in WC-135b's ... the receiving plane is on manual because of the turbulance and offset of 100.000 + lbs of fuel getting transfered... i doubt a auto pilot /radar/localizer system would work in this case
it was a pritty bumpy ride at times.
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http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/movie/SR-71/640x/EM-0025-05.mov
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The UAV refuelling effort is well under way. I don't have many details but there have been test flights to validate certain concepts and technologies that will eventually lead to fully automatic air refuelling.
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Eagl...On a scale of 1-10 how hard is it to do A2A refueling with an F-15 daylight? Now how about nighttime?
In your opinion who has it harder...You the pilot, or the boom operator in your specific aircraft.....?
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You want to have fun, try onloading ~105K of fuel at night with a bit over an hour of constant time on the boom while the aurora borealis plays out ahead of the tanker.
Can you say vertigo?
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Cav,
For me personally, air refuelling was around a 4. It "merely" required constant focused attention until I got good at it, and after that it was just something that had to be done.
For some people though, air refuelling is right up there at 10. I never had to teach someone to air refuel, but from observation I'd say that for most pilots, it starts up around 8 or 9 and tapers off to a 6 or 7.
I'd say it's tougher overall on the pilot, but a good boom operator can really save a pilots butt when the conditions are bad or when the pilot is having a tough time staying on the boom. A bad boom operator can make a good pilot look like a noob, and a bad boomer can potentially damage the boom or the aircraft, or even injure/kill the crew. But the same can be said about the pilot too.
Basically both the boomer and pilot share a lot of responsibility for the operation but overall I'd say doing the pilot bit is harder, for a lot of reasons. Not trying to talk down the boomers though, 'cause they make refuelling a whole lot easier than what the navy has to go through with drogue and probe. I'd rate navy refuelling at a 9 or 10 in difficulty and hazard accross the board, no matter how experienced they are.
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My squaddie is an air to air tanker jockey, he's the boom operator, when you see him in the M.A. give him a shout, he's a great guy his in game I.D. is N.K.A.W.T.G
Nobody Kicks A$$ Without Tanker Gas
:aok
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NICE film there and good commentary. I'd love to see it from the receiving pilots perspective. With the "bouncing" of both aircraft in the air it's got to be tough for the pilot and boom operator.
Question, if the boom gets extended too far does it disconnect automatically or does the boomer have to unlock it?
Second, just how fast does fuel actually transfer? I figure it has to depend on the size of the bird but I have no idea how many gallons / pounds per minute goes through that tube and at what pressure.
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Is the end of the boom magnetized? It looks like its just sucked onto the aircrafts end when it gets within a foot or two....
Secondly what makes basket refueling so difficult? I personally thought it might be easier to just stick something into a basket....Then again that basket is within a foot of the cockpit...Id imagine that cracked windscreens are a big problem? Is there a big threat of sucking the basket into the engines?
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The boom operator "flies" the boom down towards the receptacle when the pilot gets the plane in position. The boom moves and also extends out, so the boomer gets everything lined up and then extends the boom the last few inches until it plugs in. He has a console sort of like a complicated video game, that he uses to control everything and fly the boom around.
That's a lot easier than drogue/probe because with boom refuelling, both the plane and the boom are actively controlled and held stable. With drogue/probe, the probe is the only thing that is controlled. The drogue (basket) is just floating out there in the windstream, and any little airflow disturbance makes it bounce all over the place. Plus as the receiver gets close to the basket, the airflow around the plane pushes the basket out away from the plane just a bit.
There are other hazards with drogue/probe refuelling too. If the hose takeup reel is set wrong or malfunctions, too much slack can develop and very violent waves can form in the hose. When those waves get to the end, it can rip the probe right off of the receiver, or whack the plane causing severe damage. A bad or unlucky approach to the basket can also result in the basket getting briefly whipped away from the receiver and then snapping right back, punching a hole in the plane or doing other damage. Sucking it into the engine isn't really a problem unless something breaks off, and then yea the parts may end up down the intake.
The problem is that boom refuelling is complex and heavy, and the payoff just isn't there to adapt it to carrier plane use. I don't know if that's because they haven't tried hard enough, if it's a cultural resistance to change, or if it really isn't technically feasable, but you just won't see boom refuellers on carriers.
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Good explanation there Cav, thanks.
When you're doing a hook up are you flying by trim or stick manipulation? Do you have a way to desnsitize the stick or are you at full boost?
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Flying normally for refuelling. Some F-15 pilots will hold the control stick below the stick force sensor so they're making control inputs only to the direct mechanical flight controls, but I never found that helpful or necessary.
I think the F-22 changes it's flight control gains for refuelling but the F-15 does not. I don't know about the F-16 or f-18 but I suspect they don't either.
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Originally posted by cav58d
Secondly what makes basket refueling so difficult?
My guess would be the fact that on a boom, if you're a foot off, you can hold position and the operator can just swing the boom a little bit. With the basket, the pilot has to do all the work of perfect alignment.
In the Fighter Fling 2004 "Wassup" (Might've been just the regular Fighter Fling 2004 video...don't remember) video, an F-14 pilot actually rips the basket off the end of the tanker's hose. He ended up landing with it still attached to his craft, so he hung it over his chair in the briefing room.
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What's really a kick in the pants is when the boomer hits your windscreen! Happened a few times when I was in AC130s in the mid to early 90s.
Now I fly MC130s and passing gas to helos is a real kick in the pants....well actually its kinda boring at times but for the helo pilot it can be a real pain in the arse.
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Guttboy... did you know Doc Murdoch or was he before your time?
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Just before I arrived but yes I know of him. I got there right as the Storm was going on and wrapping up. It was not the greatest time then as we lost the crew of Spirit 03 then......
Toad did you fly AC's?
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Originally posted by eagl
The boom operator "flies" the boom down towards the receptacle when the pilot gets the plane in position. The boom moves and also extends out, so the boomer gets everything lined up and then extends the boom the last few inches until it plugs in. He has a console sort of like a complicated video game, that he uses to control everything and fly the boom around.
That's a lot easier than drogue/probe because with boom refuelling, both the plane and the boom are actively controlled and held stable. With drogue/probe, the probe is the only thing that is controlled. The drogue (basket) is just floating out there in the windstream, and any little airflow disturbance makes it bounce all over the place. Plus as the receiver gets close to the basket, the airflow around the plane pushes the basket out away from the plane just a bit.
There are other hazards with drogue/probe refuelling too. If the hose takeup reel is set wrong or malfunctions, too much slack can develop and very violent waves can form in the hose. When those waves get to the end, it can rip the probe right off of the receiver, or whack the plane causing severe damage. A bad or unlucky approach to the basket can also result in the basket getting briefly whipped away from the receiver and then snapping right back, punching a hole in the plane or doing other damage. Sucking it into the engine isn't really a problem unless something breaks off, and then yea the parts may end up down the intake.
The problem is that boom refuelling is complex and heavy, and the payoff just isn't there to adapt it to carrier plane use. I don't know if that's because they haven't tried hard enough, if it's a cultural resistance to change, or if it really isn't technically feasable, but you just won't see boom refuellers on carriers.
Eagl
We had a boom strike on the copilot hatch of a B52 once. The dent it caused in the skin was enough to call the whole hatch bad. We got a new one from the bone yard and it took about 180 man hours to fit/trim and install properly. (keep in mind you are fitting metal compontents that have low tolerences and are 40+ years old)
PS
I get my hat in about a month, my flight is going into the 2nd week of training and I've allready had 4 trainees end up in the psyc ward at wilford hall.
They are also the first flight to ever know by heart the cycle of operations and maximum effective ranges of the M16A2 by heart before the end of the first week. :aok Hooa
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Breaking just about ANYTHING on a B-52 is grounds for swapping it out with another airframe in the boneyard, because pretty much every repair/replacement is going to have to be hand-crafted to some degree.
WTG with the flight. I guess it's better to screen out early the kids who can't make it... I hope they get treated ok at the hospital. Better there than going nutso on patrol or in the dorms.
Speaking of nutso in the dorms, we had another "typical" incident here... Newcomer spouse shows up, gets met by sponsor and "friend". All go out to drinks, end up crashing back at sponsor's apartment. Sponsor wakes up to find "friend" having sex with newcomer's wife. The next day, wife remembers none of it.
Welcome to Osan! Item 3 on the new in-processing checklist is to get drugged and raped.
So yea, the sooner the kids with psych issues get out, the better as far as I'm concerned. Week 2 is just fine with me :)
Er... sorry about the hijack.
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Originally posted by guttboy
Just before I arrived but yes I know of him. I got there right as the Storm was going on and wrapping up. It was not the greatest time then as we lost the crew of Spirit 03 then......
Toad did you fly AC's?
Nope. RC-135's.
Doc and I were classmates in UPT. He and I and two others were kind of a "gang of four" that terrorized the flight parties. We kept in touch.
He was a truly fine man and friend. I miss him.
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Roger that TOAD....
Are you still flying anything now? I retire here in about 3 years 7 months....going to work at something that has nothing to do with an office or a cockpit......want a total change of pace when that day comes!
Want to keep my flying for pure fun!
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I get my hat in about a month, my flight is going into the 2nd week of training and I've allready had 4 trainees end up in the psyc ward at wilford hall.
Damn. There may be hope for the ChairForce after all.
Yer makin me proud, Guns.
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lol, don't slap them
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Originally posted by eagl
That's a lot easier than drogue/probe because with boom refuelling, both the plane and the boom are actively controlled and held stable. With drogue/probe, the probe is the only thing that is controlled. The drogue (basket) is just floating out there in the windstream, and any little airflow disturbance makes it bounce all over the place. Plus as the receiver gets close to the basket, the airflow around the plane pushes the basket out away from the plane just a bit.
...but it's the Navy way. :aok